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Sam
May 31st, 2004, 06:29 AM
I would like to hear from anyone who has had an abortion. Without getting too personal, I would like to know why you chose abortion? Did you receive counseling(from who or what organization)? Do you feel both sides of the issue was presented to you? How many abortions have you had? How old were you?

I espicially want to know how do you feel about your choice to abort today? Please be honest. I am pro-life but I believe I understand how abortion can seem like a good choice.

tinkerbell
May 31st, 2004, 08:03 AM
I have never had one, My 3 best friends have.One refuses to talk about it ever. The second one mourns the choice every day, and feels she has been punished over and over agin for the choice.She was 18. It happened the 1st time she ever had sex or even kissed for that matter.She says every Christmas she thinks about how old her child would be now. I know she thinks of it often.She has had 3 miscarriages (not as a result from the abortion) But she has never healed.She regrets it and there are days she just won't get out of bed, or times she drinks too much, I know what she's thinking about.
The other one says, it's the worst thing she has ever done, she can't understand how a woman could have more than one (we know one that has had 5) esp after the 1st.She still feels it was the right choice.. She says she wouldn't do it again,Given the choice again, but she still has to stick by the choice she made.

Spartacus
June 4th, 2004, 08:01 PM
I espicially want to know how do you feel about your choice to abort today? Please be honest. I am pro-life but I believe I understand how abortion can seem like a good choice.


When my brother was 14 he got his 14 year old girlfriend pregnant and that resulted in an abortion. He mourns that decision often. Often coming to tears and has turned to booze and drugs....and it has been 16 years.

The girl has also since turned to drugs and lives a criminal life to support that habit today. They are both pained by that decision. A decsion they both feel their parents forced on them. My father is now dying of cancer, and although he won't talk about it, that decision to press for an abortion upsets him greatly particularly now that he is facing his own end.

I think many people who suffer pain from their decision still try to rationalize theiri choice, rather than face the fact they chose to take a human life -- for what is almost always -- selfish reasons when viewed in the grand scheme of things.

Paul
June 5th, 2004, 11:07 AM
When my brother was 14 he got his 14 year old girlfriend pregnant and that resulted in an abortion. He mourns that decision often. Often coming to tears and has turned to booze and drugs....and it has been 16 years.

The girl has also since turned to drugs and lives a criminal life to support that habit today. They are both pained by that decision. A decsion they both feel their parents forced on them. My father is now dying of cancer, and although he won't talk about it, that decision to press for an abortion upsets him greatly particularly now that he is facing his own end.

I think many people who suffer pain from their decision still try to rationalize theiri choice, rather than face the fact they chose to take a human life -- for what is almost always -- selfish reasons when viewed in the grand scheme of things.
Abortion is legalized murder. But noyt to the liberals.
Paul

Iluvatar
June 5th, 2004, 12:34 PM
Abortion is legalized murder. But noyt to the liberals. I am rather annoyed with the many conservatives who simply spout out things like that. If you want to engage in a debate ont he subject, do so, don't just accuse the opposing view, and leave it at that. If you want to show that you are pro-life, then give a sound arguement, not an immature statement like that. Besides, this isn't the really a debate on abortion, this seems to be simply a request for personal experience.

I knew 2 people who had abortions closely, and another I knew, but not closely. Of the two, one is now a proud mother (3 kids), and still believes she made the riight choice. She has a good career, and can support all her children well. She says that if she had continued the first pregnancy (when she was 16), her life would have been much worse. She had anylised what a baby would do to her life when she was pregnant, and determind it would have ruined it. She wouldn't have been able to have or support her 3 other children, nor gotten her sucessful career. She regrets the original mistake, but agrees with her decision.

The other is similar, but never got pregnant again. She leads a relatively normal life, and regrets having to have an abortion, but not the abortion itself.


A decsion they both feel their parents forced on them.
That is not a decision that a parent should make for the mother. That is one of the most common causes of abortion regret. If a mother wants to keep the child, than no one should be able to stop her.


we know one that has had 5 The one I knew, buyt not closely, had 4. The first time I support a woman's right to choice, but 2 or more is careless and horribly immoral. When you do it to protect your own life, as with my first friend, that's understandable, but afterwards, you are forwarned, and a second unwanted pregnancy is inexcusable.

F1Fan
June 5th, 2004, 12:46 PM
When my brother was 14 he got his 14 year old girlfriend pregnant and that resulted in an abortion. He mourns that decision often. Often coming to tears and has turned to booze and drugs....and it has been 16 years.

The girl has also since turned to drugs and lives a criminal life to support that habit today. They are both pained by that decision. A decsion they both feel their parents forced on them.
You know, there's a bigger picture to abortion than the decision and act. I suspect some people just don't have the emotional maturity to be parents. I don't know your brother or his girlfriend, but I wonder if they have turned to drugs and such a life just what effect this would have borne on the child. I have a friend whose son and his wife sound similar, and both are in prison. My friend has custody of one grandchild, and the other grandparents have the other kids. My friend is not a good parent in many ways, but at least a better alternative. She is angry and displaces her anger on her grandson, and she doesn't know better.

I like the kid, and see that he has the potential to do great things in his life, if he has the luck, or guidance.

I think abortion is a terrible waste, immoral, and has been testified to, a mark that impacts lives for years. Yet, I don't think all human beings have the wisdom or maturity to live responsibly just yet, and abortion is a means to deal with irresponsible sexual behavior, and immature behavior in many other ways. As much as I dislike it, I don't think we as a species can do away with it just yet.

Spartacus
June 5th, 2004, 02:15 PM
I knew 2 people who had abortions closely, and another I knew, but not closely. Of the two, one is now a proud mother (3 kids), and still believes she made the riight choice. She has a good career, and can support all her children well. She says that if she had continued the first pregnancy (when she was 16), her life would have been much worse.

And now her first offspring has no life.....Again career, education, material things-- these are all selfish reasons to have an abortion and kill a devloping human.

What Pro-abortion people seem to always forget is that adoption is still legal in this country.

In January my sister gave a baby up for adoption...the baby is healthy and fine, and has two loving parents....now she could have been selfish and had the human killed when it was still inside her...but instead she went through pregancy and birth, and no human was killed.

And anyone saying..."well what if the mother just can't stand to give the kid up?" so the better answer is to kill it?

ALSO....how can it be moral to do something once or even twice...but immoral to do it more than twice? Talk about situational rationalization where ethics are involved.

How can one debate abortion when a number of people here decry the killing of infant girls in parts of the world...but appalud aboprtions done for the same reason in the same parts of the world?....Some of you people really need to examine your consciences, and thought processes where morals and ethics are concerned.

Also, in order for a woman to realize abortion is wrong, once she has had one...she must also come to realize, understand and accept that she created and then killed a human life -- that is a tough pill for a person to swallow. Many post-abortion women will never come to accept this fact.

mrs_innocent
June 5th, 2004, 04:48 PM
How can one debate abortion when a number of people here decry the killing of infant girls in parts of the world...but appalud aboprtions done for the same reason in the same parts of the world?

Murder of an infant and abortion are NOT one in the same. However, that is not appropriate subject material for this thread. To reiterate Iluvatar's post # 5, the subject of this thread seems to be the aftereffects of abortion, not our opinions of the practice. If anyone wishes to further debate the topic of abortion itself, please either do so in one of the threads we already have, or create a new one.

Sam
June 6th, 2004, 09:55 AM
I appreciate everyone's input. I hope more will continue to do so. I am not debating whether abortion is OK here. Please just give me some real life situations. Be honest. I want to know deep down feelings. I have never had an abortion. I want to hear first hand from women who have.

CC
June 8th, 2004, 07:17 AM
Well, I'm not a woman. But I did have a personal experience with a young lady when I was a much younger (and just a bit more foolish than I presently am), I was dating a woman. We both understood that it was simply a sexual relationship that was not going anywhere other than the bedroom.

She did get pregnant, she was using the pill and being a young foolish man I never used a condom. Once she told me that she was pregnant our relationship changed. (no sex) She made it very clear to me that she was going to get an abortion. At that time in my life I did not spend a lot of time thinking of the isssue of abortion, though I may have caused more that I was never made aware of.

I wanted to discuss having the baby with her but she was adamant. In fact, as far as anything practical was concerned, she did not even wish to talk to me anymore. (we did work in a bar/restaurant together).

The only relative discussion we did have is when she asked me to pay for half of the abortion. I wanted to talk to her about it. I wanted to tell her that even though I would not get married, even though neither of us was planning to be a parent, that I would surely help raise the child and not just financially. I think she knew all that though. The real truth as far as I can read it, was that she did not wish to be a parent, or carry the baby to birth, or quite frankly, did not want an ongoing relationship with me. One look at me then and any woman with a functioning brain could see I was not marriage material.

I did give her the money she asked for. She made it clear that if I didn't she would do whatever it takes to get the abortion. The last I heard of her she had moved to Phoenix and was doing lap dances in a nudie bar.

I can't say how the abortion affected her emotionally, however she turned her "wild" dial up a full notch in the following months.

I did just the opposite. It made me realize that even when dating but not commiting there were none the less, responsibilities that came with that.

I don't know what became of her nor how having an abortion affected her life. I can say though, that almost 25 years later, I still think of it often and ponder as to the ramifications it caused for both of us. On my part, though not immediately, it caused me to change my lifestyle considerably because it made me realize, that committed or not, there are indeed commitments that come with ANY sexual relationship between a man and a woman........................................:O)

HappyLady
June 14th, 2004, 07:28 PM
I never had such an experience, though I know several women who have.

The one that sticks out in my mind the most is this one. When I was in college, barely believing in God and being adamantly against Catholicism, I met a Catholic girl who changed my life in many ways. I met her in January at the beginning of the spring semester. She was an Italian New Jersey girl. She had long, curly black hair, she was very pretty, stood out in a crowd, she was giggly, beaming, happy, there was something very special about her personality. She had many, many friends, was easily accepted into a sorority, and had a very promising future. We hung out all spring semester and became very close. She educated me on the Catholic religion and actually helped to plant the initial seed that brought me to it.

(She asked me quite simply to recite the St. Therese Little Flower prayer, in which I prayed for guidance. And my prayer was granted. Some 10 years later, and I have finally become a Catholic.)

However, toward the end of the spring semester, she came to me one day very distraught. She had a boyfriend back home. As often happens in long distance relationships, she wanted to break up with him. He came out to visit her that weekend, and she did break up with him. However, they had one last intimate encounter that weekend, in which the condom broke. They had sex many times, always using a condom, and the condom never once broke. It just so happened that this one last time, it did.

She came to me a couple weeks later, and in strictest confidence informed me she was pregnant. She trusted no one else with the information. I knew she was Catholic, and I knew the Catholic belief on abortion, even though I was not Catholic, or even a theist, at the time. I had a lot of responsibility as I knew she trusted my opinion greatly.

I told her that the decision was ultimately hers, reminded her of her commitment to her church as she was very involved in her religion, suggested she pray hard for guidance, suggested she tell her mother, suggested she not tell her boyfriend, reminded her of all her options, and tried to show her how keeping the baby wouldn't be an impossible task, and I promised to support her no matter what she chose.

She told me she wanted an abortion, but that she wanted it before there was a heartbeat because if there was a heartbeat, she didn't think she could go through with it. She felt that life began with a heartbeat. Basically, had she decided to have the baby, she would have been forced back into a relationship she didn't want to be in and she'd have to essentially give up the hope of a promising career as a special education teacher. She didn't feel she could adequately handle the responsibilty of a child at the time, and that if she carried the baby to term, she wouldn't have the strength to give it up for adoption.

She was also a product of a stereotypical Catholic family where appearances are everything. To have an unwed pregnant daughter would not be acceptable.

So, she went through with the abortion. She told her mother, but she was the only other person besides me to ever know. She didn't tell her ex-boyfriend either, which was a difficult decision for her to make as well.

I have not seen her since my last year of college. I often wonder how she is dealing with the repercussions of that decision now, especially since she valued her Catholic upbringing so greatly. I can't say that I agree with her decision, but knowing her as well as I did, I understand fully how she felt she had no other choice to make, and how she perceived that a baby would ruin her life.

Though, I'm sure that if she was watching her 11 year old son or daughter playing a baseball or soccer game today, she wouldn't feel her life was ruined, but rather that it was all the better for it.

Andacanavar
June 15th, 2004, 06:30 AM
I'm not criticizing your friend here at all HL, but it's a good thing she's not a member here. Considering she broke about every Catholic rule on premarital sex, some folks on here would have a field day with this.

I hope everything worked out for her.

HappyLady
June 15th, 2004, 06:40 AM
I'm not criticizing your friend here at all HL, but it's a good thing she's not a member here. Considering she broke about every Catholic rule on premarital sex, some folks on here would have a field day with this.

I hope everything worked out for her.

Oh, I know. Now that I am Catholic, I can't believe she went through with it, considering how immersed she was in her religion. (Not like I'm a perfect Catholic either, cohabitating with a still technically married man and all.) But abortion is a biggie. I couldn't have done it whether I was Catholic or not.

mustang5
June 19th, 2004, 05:38 AM
I believe that any decision to Abort a child from a Mother stems from a Man failing to take on the responsibility. I'm sure there are a few but the Natural instinct of a woman is to Love and Mother children. I also believe that any Woman out there who has had an abortion will always be scarred by the event and will be saddened by that. It must be a terrible weight to bear for the woman. My Heart goes out to these women that are faced with this decision. I'm certain that if there was a father against it, her decision would be different. I have 2 children (Thank God) and I am responsible for 2 abortions. (God please Forgive me). You can see the delima one faces when they are against Abortion but also responsible for them. No Mother today has to keep her baby. There are more people willing to adopt than there are babies available. I believe the pain that a mother will endure from giving up her baby would be less than what would be felt aborting the baby. I would encourage anybody if faced with the decision or if a friend is facing the decision to support life. It is a gift from God that should not be interrupted. As I have said before, I will have to answer for my own choices as a man, and believe that only because of the Grace of God, and Blood of Jesus that I even have a chance of being forgiven. I hope I haven't offended anybody and have helped somebody.

Anywien
June 19th, 2004, 06:28 AM
Well here I would have to disagree, especially because my own mother had several abortions before I was born. The reason was that my parents only wanted two children. It's not always because of a man, sometimes it's the woman. Or even the mother's parents pressuring her. There are many different situations in which an abortion is thought necessary, such as with rape. A friend of a friend of mine was raped and fell pregnant, and had to abort the baby to avoid the painful situation.

mustang5
June 19th, 2004, 07:01 AM
I find your reply intriguing. You state that your parents reason was that they only wanted 2 children but had several abortions before you were born. This does not make sense. If they only wanted two then why didn't the abortions start after you were born. As I said my Heart goes out to any woman faced with this decision. A woman who has been raped has enough grief to deal with. Why compound the rest of her life with grief of an abortion on top of it. Question: Your mother told you she had several abortions before you were born?

HappyLady
June 19th, 2004, 07:38 AM
As I said my Heart goes out to any woman faced with this decision. A woman who has been raped has enough grief to deal with. Why compound the rest of her life with grief of an abortion on top of it.

I agree with this comment. However, what if it was, say, a 12 year old girl who had been raped and became pregnant as a result, and carrying the baby to term would put her life in great danger. Then what?

mustang5
June 19th, 2004, 08:27 AM
Thanks for the agreement. In the case of the 12 year old, whose life is in danger. The 12 year olds life comes first. You pose a pretty tricky scenario. However I feel the true christian has justification in preserving the life of their children. In our society if the childs life was in danger, the hospitals and courts would probably take over and perform the abortion.

tinkerbell
June 19th, 2004, 10:58 AM
There are many woman that are raped and go through with the pregnancy and raise the child or give it up for adoption.I will never forget this one episode of Oprah.On stage sat a white family, holding this adorable black baby.It turned out the mother was raped by a black man.The rapist was arrested.The family was against abortion, so they knew she would have the child, but the father decided he loved his wife so much he couldn't stand parting with a child that is still part of his wife. The wife was relieved.She still felt the child was hers. Before seeing this show, I could have never imagined a woman feeling this way about a child from rape. But also now knowing and having the fertility/pregnancy struggles I have I totally get where they are coming from.
I have little doubt if I were to get pregnant from rape, my husband would want to abort the pregnancy.I couldn't blame him for those feelings..I'm just not sure I could go through with it.The baby is still my child.However, I could also understand a woman not wanting to live with a child that carried DNA from a man that raped her.
It's what youre able to live with that will influence your choice. I know too many woman that live with "What if's" and "what could have beens."
I also know too many other woman that don't give it a second thought.I personally know a wealthy married couple that aborted 5 pregnancies.The mother had 3 children from previous relationships.Her husband adopted her youngest daughter.Her husband REALLY wanted children, she aborted 3 pregnancies during a period where they were actually "trying", she just changed her mind.Her last abortion was only a few months before the pregnancy she decided to keep.In the meantime, here I sit popping clomid & progesterone,Getting stuck with needles, having monthly tests, going broke trying anything and everything. Browsing adoption sites so I have a back up plan.Those woman are a real punch in the heart, for woman like me.I can't stand when women use abortion as a form of birth control, or when religion teaches us birth control is evil,causing soo many people to secretly end a pregnancy that could have been prevented. Which is the lesser of 2 evils here?

Anywien
June 19th, 2004, 06:10 PM
I find your reply intriguing. You state that your parents reason was that they only wanted 2 children but had several abortions before you were born. This does not make sense. If they only wanted two then why didn't the abortions start after you were born. As I said my Heart goes out to any woman faced with this decision. A woman who has been raped has enough grief to deal with. Why compound the rest of her life with grief of an abortion on top of it. Question: Your mother told you she had several abortions before you were born?

I already had two siblings before I was born, I was very nearly aborted myself...But there's a very long story behind that one, and it's irrelevant. My mother did indeed tell me she had several abortions before I was born, as well as several miscarriages. What is your point? A woman who has been raped does have enough grief to deal with, so why would she want to live with that grief in a human embodiment? Whether or not she put it up for adoption, it would still be a living reminder of something she would rather forget. Not to mention, how would she explain it to the child?

Sam
June 20th, 2004, 09:01 AM
Anywien, a rape is a horrible thing to have to live with. Aborting a baby will never erase the rape. Why compound the horrible experience of rape with the horrible experience of abortion? I know this isn't the topic of this thread but felt I had to put my two cents in. I would love to hear honestly from your mother. Do you think she would be willing to answer the questions I put forth?

I happen to agree 100% with mustang5. Being a woman and a mother myself I do feel that it is a woman's desire to please her man and to nurture her child which is why abortion can be so devastating.

mustang5
June 20th, 2004, 10:16 AM
I already had two siblings before I was born, I was very nearly aborted myself...But there's a very long story behind that one, and it's irrelevant. My mother did indeed tell me she had several abortions before I was born, as well as several miscarriages. What is your point? A woman who has been raped does have enough grief to deal with, so why would she want to live with that grief in a human embodiment? Whether or not she put it up for adoption, it would still be a living reminder of something she would rather forget. Not to mention, how would she explain it to the child?

I guess my point is what did your mother convey to you as advice if you were faced with the same delima. Is she not thanking GOD every day when she looks in your face that she did not abort you.

Now in your statement about the grief being continued by having said child that was a result of a rape, I would think that most women and I am not one, but I would think that most would be offended to think their natural instinct to love there child would be hate and anger and pain because of the rape.

OK lets just think about the mother having to tell her daughter. She tells the child that she had been raped. The child loves her mother, so she feels pain for her mother. Now her mom says thats not all honey. You are the result of that rape. Now the child is in shock. The mother says, I had to make a choice to have my baby or abort my baby, and honey, I just want you to know that I thank GOD every day for your existence because you are the miracle that spawned from that devastating event. What's the child going to say? "Mom, you should have aborted me"

Come on Anywien!

And by the way, if I may ask, what is an anywien?

Anywien
June 20th, 2004, 10:29 PM
I guess my point is what did your mother convey to you as advice if you were faced with the same delima. Is she not thanking GOD every day when she looks in your face that she did not abort you.

Now in your statement about the grief being continued by having said child that was a result of a rape, I would think that most women and I am not one, but I would think that most would be offended to think their natural instinct to love there child would be hate and anger and pain because of the rape.

OK lets just think about the mother having to tell her daughter. She tells the child that she had been raped. The child loves her mother, so she feels pain for her mother. Now her mom says thats not all honey. You are the result of that rape. Now the child is in shock. The mother says, I had to make a choice to have my baby or abort my baby, and honey, I just want you to know that I thank GOD every day for your existence because you are the miracle that spawned from that devastating event. What's the child going to say? "Mom, you should have aborted me"

Come on Anywien!

And by the way, if I may ask, what is an anywien?
1. No my mother did not tell me that as advice, in case I was faced with the same. She is not thanking God either, for one thing she doesn't believe in Him, and the other I'm not going to get into.

2. A friend of mine was raped by her father and got pregnant. She chose to abort. What would you do in that situation? That is one of the situations I am talking about. What would you say to that child? "Your father is also your grandfather?" While many children are happy to be alive, the sad reality is that many are also miserable with life, and some would rather have been aborted. While I generally disagree on abortions, I do think that in some cases it is acceptable.

3. What's the deal with you emphasising on the word "God"? It's not like I won't notice it there if you don't capitalise it.

Anywien is my name in Elvish, not an inanimate object of any sort.

3rdPersonPlural
June 21st, 2004, 12:26 PM
I had two abortions (as the male part of the process) before getting married and having kids myself. Before holding my first son I never gave the abortions a second thought - they were mistakes with relationships that were futureless and nobody was ready to raise up kids anyway.

After that awe-striking moment with the little purple person, I have mourned the loss of those two children daily. I try very hard not to think about it anymore.

tinkerbell
June 21st, 2004, 05:19 PM
My husband went through one from a relationship before us..It hit him pretty hard at a sonogram we had with our son.I was the same week as his girlfriend was when she had the abortion.I guess he never realized how quickly babies develop.The Dr. that advised him on the abortion, did confirm problems with the fetus, but I still don't think he will ever get over the choice that was made, even if he rationalizes it.

mustang5
June 23rd, 2004, 01:05 AM
1. No my mother did not tell me that as advice, in case I was faced with the same. She is not thanking God either, for one thing she doesn't believe in Him, and the other I'm not going to get into.

Is it your mothers disbelief in god (small letters) that was passed on to you?


3. What's the deal with you emphasising on the word "God"? It's not like I won't notice it there if you don't capitalise it.
You are funny Anywien, I just like to give god (small letters) a higher place.

Anywien is my name in Elvish, not an inanimate object of any sort.
What is Elvish? :)

Anywien
June 23rd, 2004, 01:40 AM
It was my choice not to believe in God, not one person influenced it. I doubt God could have a much higher place than the one you all believe he already has.

What is Elvish?
Surely you jest! I'm not even going to answer that one. Sorry but I never expected there to be anyone who doesn't know what Elvish is...
Continue the debate on abortion....

firesdeath
June 23rd, 2004, 05:14 AM
Abortion is legalized murder. But noyt to the liberals.
Paul

why?, dont you realize it can kill a young teen becuase she is so young. The baby would have to go to child services anyway becuase they most likely wouldn't beable to care for the child.

HappyLady
June 23rd, 2004, 06:13 AM
why?, dont you realize it can kill a young teen becuase she is so young. The baby would have to go to child services anyway becuase they most likely wouldn't beable to care for the child.

Taking one life for another doesn't necessarily make it moral.

firesdeath
June 23rd, 2004, 07:58 AM
Taking one life for another doesn't necessarily make it moral.

Fine, how about this then. If a young teen is going to have a baby, but she and the baby with die if she tries to gives birth. Then what do you do? You just tell her that due to a new law you and your baby will die and that she has less then 9 months to live. ;?

HappyLady
June 23rd, 2004, 09:06 AM
Fine, how about this then. If a young teen is going to have a baby, but she and the baby with die if she tries to gives birth. Then what do you do? You just tell her that due to a new law you and your baby will die and that she has less then 9 months to live. ;?

No one could ever diagnose that with certainty, could they? Miracles do happen, don't they?

mustang5
June 23rd, 2004, 05:03 PM
It was my choice not to believe in God, not one person influenced it. I doubt God could have a much higher place than the one you all believe he already has.

Surely you jest! I'm not even going to answer that one. Sorry but I never expected there to be anyone who doesn't know what Elvish is...
Continue the debate on abortion....

Sorry to have displayed an ignorance. I do not know what Elvish is. Is it some Austrailian thing. I don't know. You must consider yourself a pretty smart individual of however many years you have. Take probably the smartest person you can think of. It is said that given all the knowledge in the world, this person might now maybe 1% of that knowledge.

So don't you think that in that 99% of knowledge that these people don't know that maybe GOD might exist. Elvish is the 99% I missed out on. Are you going to enlighten me or are you going to stick to your guns of not telling me. :red:

KevinBrowning
June 23rd, 2004, 08:42 PM
Surely you jest! I'm not even going to answer that one. Sorry but I never expected there to be anyone who doesn't know what Elvish is...
Continue the debate on abortion....
There are plenty of people who dont know what "Elvish" is. It can be because of a generation gap, or simply because one doesn't read fantasy. And if you want to be technical, there's no language called Elvish. The two main languages used by elves that Tolkien invented are called Sindarin and Quenya.

Sam
June 24th, 2004, 05:55 AM
I don't know what Elvish is.

HappyLady
June 24th, 2004, 06:02 AM
Elvish is derived from JRR Tolkein's Lord of The Rings. Originally it was a trilogy of books that was recently made into a trilogy of movies. The Elves are one of the creatures in the movie, beautiful and enlightened. (Orlando Bloom and Liv Tyler both portrayed Elves in the movies.) Who wouldn't want to be one? They speak in the Elvish tongue, as Kevin pointed out.

Sam
June 24th, 2004, 04:26 PM
Oh, I should have known that. My whole family is into the story. I'm a Harry Potter fan.

Sam
June 28th, 2004, 09:55 AM
Is there anyone who has had an abortion and truly feels it was your right? If so, you should not be ashamed to answer me. Is there anyone because so far there have been mostly sad stories. So far I am hearing that it was a necessary choice for some but not a desired choice. Many are struggling with the choice today.

HappyLady
June 29th, 2004, 10:27 AM
Is there anyone who has had an abortion and truly feels it was your right?

I know several people who had abortions, all of whom felt it was "their right", but none of whom felt "good" about it. Ultimately, I think abortion should be made illegal.

kwinters
June 30th, 2004, 01:04 PM
Making it illegal won't stop it. It will just become accessible to those who can afford it.

The solution to abortion is preventing unwanted pregnancies.

If HALF the effort and money that goes into trying to overturn Roe v Wade went into education and contraception we would see a big decline in US abortion rates.

Fyshhed
June 30th, 2004, 06:43 PM
Is there anyone who has had an abortion and truly feels it was your right? If so, you should not be ashamed to answer me. Is there anyone because so far there have been mostly sad stories. So far I am hearing that it was a necessary choice for some but not a desired choice. Many are struggling with the choice today.

There's nothing happy about it. A child that could have happened does not. The problem is, just because it is not happy does not mean that it is not necessary. My reasons are the same as in the contraception thread. There are indeed times when a baby should not happen. Abortion is something that people do not tend to want to do again, so I wouldn't expect too many people having repeat abortions every time they get pregnant.

HappyLady
June 30th, 2004, 06:48 PM
Making it illegal won't stop it. It will just become accessible to those who can afford it.

The solution to abortion is preventing unwanted pregnancies.

If HALF the effort and money that goes into trying to overturn Roe v Wade went into education and contraception we would see a big decline in US abortion rates.

I agree with what you say, but one step in the process would be to make it illegal. It wouldn't be wise to make it illegal until we initiate more preventative measures, though.

Sam
July 1st, 2004, 04:21 AM
I have found, from my work at a crisis pregnancy center that there are many who have had repeat abortions. Why do you think this happens? Everyone knows my feelings on contraception but most don't agree with me. Most don't have a problem with contraception. Why don't they use it???

Fyshhed
July 1st, 2004, 06:07 AM
I have found, from my work at a crisis pregnancy center that there are many who have had repeat abortions. Why do you think this happens? Everyone knows my feelings on contraception but most don't agree with me. Most don't have a problem with contraception. Why don't they use it???

apathy and carelessness

Sam
July 1st, 2004, 11:30 AM
Even women who show apathy and carelessness cannot continue to do so when they find out they are pregnant. They may act like they don't care but no woman wants to kill her child. In order to have an abortion a woman must deny her innate maternal feelings to nurture her young. It's that denial that causes problems later on such as depression, drug abuse, suicide and I believe having a repeat abortion is a symptom of their problem of denying a previous abortion. I think in having another abortion they are justifying, to the world, their first abortion.

I don't believe a woman can truly heal from an abortion unless she is allowed to recognize that she is already a mother of a dead baby and it is healthy to mourn for that child.

It's interesting that in almost all of the women I have spoken to who have forgiven themselves for their abortions and have begun to heal, the key ingredient to their healing was in finding or rediscovering their faith. God is the key ingredient.

There are two victims in an abortion. One that dies a horrible death and goes immediately to heaven and one who lives a horrible life of denial until she forgives herself for a choice she was made to believe was the right one.

If all the survivors of abortion(women who are victims) banned together I think we could get abortion made illegal. If anyone is reading this who has suffered from an abortion she cannot take back please get help. You are not alone and it wasn't your fault.

kwinters
July 2nd, 2004, 09:22 AM
I have found, from my work at a crisis pregnancy center that there are many who have had repeat abortions. Why do you think this happens? Everyone knows my feelings on contraception but most don't agree with me. Most don't have a problem with contraception. Why don't they use it???

What, like every couple of months?

Who knows why people don't use contraception-maybe more education and free birth control would help.

kwinters
July 2nd, 2004, 09:33 AM
Even women who show apathy and carelessness cannot continue to do so when they find out they are pregnant. They may act like they don't care but no woman wants to kill her child. In order to have an abortion a woman must deny her innate maternal feelings to nurture her young. It's that denial that causes problems later on such as depression, drug abuse, suicide and I believe having a repeat abortion is a symptom of their problem of denying a previous abortion. I think in having another abortion they are justifying, to the world, their first abortion.

I don't believe a woman can truly heal from an abortion unless she is allowed to recognize that she is already a mother of a dead baby and it is healthy to mourn for that child.

It's interesting that in almost all of the women I have spoken to who have forgiven themselves for their abortions and have begun to heal, the key ingredient to their healing was in finding or rediscovering their faith. God is the key ingredient.

There are two victims in an abortion. One that dies a horrible death and goes immediately to heaven and one who lives a horrible life of denial until she forgives herself for a choice she was made to believe was the right one.

If all the survivors of abortion(women who are victims) banned together I think we could get abortion made illegal. If anyone is reading this who has suffered from an abortion she cannot take back please get help. You are not alone and it wasn't your fault.


Sam, sorry but your opinion on much of what you've written is just wrong. You have convinced yourself of these notions, but they just aren't true.


Plus, if you believe an abortion results in the embryo or fetus going to heaven, isn't abortion a fast track to the pearly gates?

How many people will get into heaven once they've been born? I doubt you're going to say 100%.

mustang5
July 2nd, 2004, 10:09 AM
In response to SAM post #44. I think you are dead on. I applaud what you have written. It makes total sense. I don't see how Kwinters thinks your wrong. All children go to Heaven if they die, so if you want to call it a fast track, then so be it.

kwinters
July 2nd, 2004, 10:51 AM
In response to SAM post #44. I think you are dead on. I applaud what you have written. It makes total sense. I don't see how Kwinters thinks your wrong. All children go to Heaven if they die, so if you want to call it a fast track, then so be it.


Sam's wrong because s/he thinks s/he knows the inner state of women who've had abortion. S/He doesn't.

I'm sure the fantasy of women who are fine after abortion are just in denial and women who are upset will be traumatized for life perpetuates his/her preconceived notions of what women SHOULD be (baby machines, by the sounds of it), but that fantasy has no basis in reality and doesn't repressent the experience of all women.

btw, what's the cut off age, mustang? When does God start condemning children to hell? 7? 8? 12?

mrs_innocent
July 2nd, 2004, 10:59 AM
btw, what's the cut off age, mustang? When does God start condemning children to hell? 7? 8? 12?

Interesting tidbit, albeit completely irrelevant to the topic: In some cultures, children who die at birth or at any point during childhood are believed to be immediately condemned to hell for causing their parents pain.

mrs_innocent
July 2nd, 2004, 11:06 AM
Kwinters is not alone in his/her opinion. I, too, feel Sam is off-base. There's no way to tell what every woman feels about motherhood; I know of several who never want children for a number of reasons, none of them "selfish". Childbearing is not thought to be a woman's obligation anymore, and it shouldn't be.

That being said, making abortion illegal likely wouldn't curb abortion. Sure, the rates would significantly decrease on paper, but that's only because the paper will only show known abortions. If it's illegal, many will go unknown. Women will die, along with their almost-babies. Doesn't sound like a better route to me.

HappyLady
July 2nd, 2004, 11:09 AM
Interesting tidbit, albeit completely irrelevant to the topic: In some cultures, children who die at birth or at any point during childhood are believed to be immediately condemned to hell for causing their parents pain.

Talk about a guilt trip for a kid.

"If I've told you once, I've told you thousand times, if you run into the street and get hit by a car, you'll go to HELL for the pain it causes me!" ;?

HappyLady
July 2nd, 2004, 11:14 AM
Childbearing is not thought to be a woman's obligation anymore, and it shouldn't be.

But if women aren't obligated to have babies, then who will have them? :?:

While I agree that some women use abortion like birth control and view it as such, I think most women are traumatized by the event. They might not consider it murder or something as drastic as that, but mostly they understand it was a potential human being that would lead them to motherhood and ultimately change your life. The only way that can't affect you is if you're a cold hearted person or psychologically unable to face it, in my opinion.

mrs_innocent
July 2nd, 2004, 11:29 AM
But if women aren't obligated to have babies, then who will have them?


It's a woman's right to have children, provided her body allows for it. Biologically speaking, a woman's body is the only one able to bear children. No woman is obligated, however, to become a mother.

HappyLady
July 2nd, 2004, 11:44 AM
It's a woman's right to have children, provided her body allows for it. Biologically speaking, a woman's body is the only one able to bear children. No woman is obligated, however, to become a mother.

Hmmm...at what point does it stop being a right and start being an obligation. Suppose we were having a population shortage. It may not be likely, but is possible. Would it still be a woman's right to have kids and not an obligation?

mrs_innocent
July 2nd, 2004, 11:50 AM
Would it still be a woman's right to have kids and not an obligation?

Very simply, yes.

HappyLady
July 2nd, 2004, 12:21 PM
Very simply, yes.

Hmmm...even if the end of existence were forthcoming?

When we go to war, if people don't join the army, the government enlists us with a draft.

It would be likely if there were a population shortage the government would do something similar.

But still, why do some people feel obligated to support the country they live in, and others don't. Does it mean we aren't in fact obligated, or that we are?

I tend to walk this same line with baby-making, too. I'm not so sure if it's a right or an obligation.

kwinters
July 3rd, 2004, 01:24 AM
But if women aren't obligated to have babies, then who will have them? :?:

Is it a man's obligation to impregnate women until his 70s because he is still producing sperm?

C'mon, what kind of question is that?


While I agree that some women use abortion like birth control and view it as such, I think most women are traumatized by the event. They might not consider it murder or something as drastic as that, but mostly they understand it was a potential human being that would lead them to motherhood and ultimately change your life. The only way that can't affect you is if you're a cold hearted person or psychologically unable to face it, in my opinion.

First, where are these women who cite abortion as their form of birth control? This is a big fallacy imho.

Many people (myself included) do not consider an embryo a person. Does it have potential be become a person eventually? Of course, but I don't buy person at conception. Never have, never will.

Guess that makes me a terrible, cold-hearted person in your eyes.

I see it as being rational about what decisions a woman should be able to make about her body.

kwinters
July 3rd, 2004, 01:25 AM
Hmmm...at what point does it stop being a right and start being an obligation. Suppose we were having a population shortage. It may not be likely, but is possible. Would it still be a woman's right to have kids and not an obligation?

Then infertile women are not really women and should be forced to divorce their husbands so he can have a 'real' woman / baby machine for a wife.

I am shortly going to start the process of earning my PhD.

Should I give that up and become pregnant instead so I can have a baby before I'm 35?

Women who try to get pregnant don't do it because the baby wants to be born, they do it because THEY want a baby. It's their desire driving it, isn't it an act of selfishness, something to make themselves happy?

What's the difference between being selfish and having a baby and being selfish and not having one?

HappyLady
July 3rd, 2004, 07:36 AM
Is it a man's obligation to impregnate women until his 70s because he is still producing sperm?

I didn't state that it is a woman's obligation to make as many babies as she possibly can in her lifetime. But I don't know that she should view having children as a right and not also an obligation. So, your statement in reply to mine is not a good analogy.


First, where are these women who cite abortion as their form of birth control? This is a big fallacy imho.

There are cases of women who have 5 abortions or more. At what point do we call it "birth control"?


Many people (myself included) do not consider an embryo a person. Does it have potential be become a person eventually? Of course, but I don't buy person at conception. Never have, never will.

Guess that makes me a terrible, cold-hearted person in your eyes.

Wow, k, this is the first time I can accuse you of not taking care in reading.

This is in fact what I said,

"They might not consider it murder or something as drastic as that, but mostly they understand it was a potential human being that would lead them to motherhood and ultimately change your life."

It looks as though we have said the same exact thing, therefore, you aren't a terrible person in my eyes as you recognize an unborn fetus as a "potential human being" as I do.

HappyLady
July 3rd, 2004, 08:08 AM
Then infertile women are not really women and should be forced to divorce their husbands so he can have a 'real' woman / baby machine for a wife.

This isn't logical. If we continue with the US Draft example, only able-bodied Americans are obligated to go to war. An infertile woman should not feel she isn't living up to her obligation or not be given rights because of her condition.


I am shortly going to start the process of earning my PhD.

Should I give that up and become pregnant instead so I can have a baby before I'm 35?

This is certainly not for me to judge. I pursued my Master's with children. I squeezed my 9 month preggo fat butt into a desk to take finals, and the following semester pumped breastmilk before going to class. I intend to get my Phd in my late 30's, early 40's when my kids are a little older. In my eyes, I fulfilled my "obligation" (desire...blessing) to have kids, and managed to pursue my career, too.

I'm certainly not saying that is how one *should* do it. But I do feel that it is selfish to pursue a career above all else for men and women. There is more to life than personal fulfillment and money.


Women who try to get pregnant don't do it because the baby wants to be born, they do it because THEY want a baby. It's their desire driving it, isn't it an act of selfishness, something to make themselves happy?

While it may be a maternal instinctual drive that makes women desire to have babies, it is still an act of selflessness to make your body a host for a child to be brought into the world and then more an act of selflessness to devote your time and energy to raising that child. While we can view having babies as a blessing, as I do, I don't view it as having been my right and privilege, but rather the obligation of being born a fertile woman...sort of.


What's the difference between being selfish and having a baby and being selfish and not having one?

None. When I was in highschool, one of my friends intentionally got pregnant, because she wanted someone to love. I thought it was very selfish. Her and her children are on welfare now. An obligation to have a child would fall into the realm of being responsible enough to care for one.

Sam
July 6th, 2004, 03:02 AM
Wow!, after reading all this my only comment is that this is what happens when we don't leave things in God's hand. It's all TOO much for us to handle.

DeKazz
July 6th, 2004, 07:15 AM
I began reading this thread, and it prompted me to re-visit another website, http://www.imnotsorry.net/whythis.htm

It is a collection of stories by women who have had abortions, and are not sorry about it. Keep in mind that these stories are self-selected by women who do not regret their decision to abort, just as the many anti-choice sites select stories about women who do regret their choice. Then, read them.

A few things stand out. Many abortions are the result of birth control that failed, rather than not using birth control at all. Many describe the actual procedures as unpleasant, even horrible. Many women go on to have children later on, but some women simply never want to have children. In most cases, the reasons for having the abortion are a combination of being too young, not having a stable relationship, not wanting to be pregnant in the first place, etc.

One thing does become clear...if you think that a fertilized egg is equivalent to a human being, having an abortion will likely result in feelings of guilt. If you view the fertilized egg as a potential human, it is likely that one might regret the circumstances that led to the decision to abort, but not the decision or the abortion itself.

I have never had an abortion. However, I am 49 years old and apparently just as fertile as ever. If my birth control fails, I have already decided, with the concurrence of my husband, that I will have an abortion immediately. There is no way that I can bear or raise another child at my age. While I hope that the circumstance does not occur, I am grateful to live in a nation where that decision is mine, and my husband's, rather than the government's.

P.S. Look for the stories from women who had abortions before Roe v Wade...it is chilling, what they had to go through.

HappyLady
July 6th, 2004, 08:54 AM
I began reading this thread, and it prompted me to re-visit another website, http://www.imnotsorry.net/whythis.htm

Welcome to ODN DeKazz!

Thank you for providing this link. The following rant is in no way directed at you. You just happened to provide a great link.

[Getting up on my Soapbox.]It was very informative and I'm glad that it exists for people to read about how irresponsible behavior leads to more irresponsible behavior. I am going to save it in my favorites and show it to my 17 yr old step-son who is sexually active and uses condoms, and maybe even print it out to show my other kids when they are old enough.

I'm appalled by the irresponsibility of these people. Really. I don't say something like that often. It takes a lot to appall me. I'm appalled.

I read 6 stories and I am floored by the irresponsibility and lack of forethougt that led to these abortions.

Of the first 6 I read, Ashley A was 15 and didn't use any birth control. Why was she having sex in the first place if she wasn't going to be prepared to raise a baby if a pregnancy should occur???

Deb used no protection either time she got pregnant and was "stunned" that she got pregnant, so had abortions both times. Here's your "stupid" sign. Duh.

Jade had "one night of weakness" with no protection. That justifies it, right?

It didn't occur to Josh and his girlfriend to use protection. Here's your sign, too. Duh.

And Kristina takes the icing on the cake, because she thought she was "invincible." You deserve the biggest sign. Here it is.

Of the 6 I read, Karen is the only one who used a condom. But she states, and I'm paraphrasing, "There's a reason the condom package tells you about the failure rate..." Well yeah there's a reason! It's because even with using a condom there is still a 2% chance that you will get pregnant, so you better be darn ready to deal with that failure rate if it should occur and take responsbility before you decide to have sex in the first place!

Each and every story I read, and I only read 6, so I will go back and see if I can find ones where they were responsible, the people were *very* sexually irresponsible. Essentially, if you're having sex with birth control...NO birth control is 100% effective. ANY person who engages in sex should be ready to accept the responsibility of having sex and raising a baby or giving it up for adoption should their birth control fail. There is no other excuse.

That people make mistakes in the heat of the moment isn't a good enough reason for me to consider abortion ethical. If you were too weak or too stupid to think you'd get pregnant, tough. Abortion should not be the escape route.

That birth control makes mistakes because it fails sometimes isn't a good enough reason for me to consider abortion ethical. ALL birth control is prone to a failure rate. Before deciding to have sex with birth control, a person should make sure they can handle the pregnancy that could result if it fails.

Now, let me get down off my soapbox, because I don't like to stand on one often. I am 31. I've had 20 different sexual partners since I was 15 yrs old. Trust me, I'm not bragging that I've been responsible. I am appalled by my own statistics, too. In my early days, between 15 and 21, I had a total of 6 partners, I was on birth control pills whether I was having a casual sexual relationship or a more serious relationship. The 2 casual relationships I had during that time, I used a condom with one, and not with the other. It wasn't the safest sex to have, but had I gotten a disease I would have had no choice but to live with it, right? Why would a pregnancy be treated any differently? My birth control pills were prone to failure, too. I could have gotten pregnant.

From 21 to the present, I've had 14 partners. I always used condoms in my casual sexual relationships, which was more responsible, but still prone to a failure rate. In my more serious relationships, I used a variety: condoms, birth control pills, withdrawl, and now, sterilization. I only used withdrawl when my spouse and I were ready to accept a pregnancy anyway, and birth control pills only after we were committed to each other thinking in terms of marriage.

Granted, with more than 10 of those 20 partners, an unwanted pregnancy could have ruined my life, as much as an STD would have or more. But if I got HIV I couldn't wish that away like I could an unwanted pregnancy. I couldn't just take a pill or get a procedure and have it be all gone. No, I wasn't thinking about the consequences alllll that time that I was being sexually irresponsible, and I know that the women in all those stories on that site aren't thinking about it either.

[Back to my soapbox for a moment.] It is one thing to admit that we have become a sexually irresponsible society...of which I am a contributor and I admit that. But I think it is quite another to say it is "ethical" to fix our mistakes and shirk off our responsibility by aborting a fetus after we've screwed up. There comes a point where we, as a society, need to accept responsibility for our irresponsible actions. Abortion is the atrocity that shows just how unethical society can be.


I have never had an abortion. However, I am 49 years old and apparently just as fertile as ever. If my birth control fails, I have already decided, with the concurrence of my husband, that I will have an abortion immediately. There is no way that I can bear or raise another child at my age. While I hope that the circumstance does not occur, I am grateful to live in a nation where that decision is mine, and my husband's, rather than the government's.

[Getting down off my soapbox again.] At 49, it would likely be a health issue, possibly life threatening, for you to carry a pregnancy to term. I think that is one of the only "gray areas" when it comes to abortion. The life of the mother vs. the life of the unborn fetus is the only situation that muddles the abortion issue for me.

If the "I'm not sorry group" wants to promote the free choice of abortion without regrets, they should fill their site with those stories where the life of the mother was in jeopardy. That would be more supportive to their "cause." The stories they have there certainly aren't helping promote choice, that's for sure.

KevinBrowning
July 6th, 2004, 03:14 PM
Sam's wrong because s/he thinks s/he knows the inner state of women who've had abortion. S/He doesn't.

I'm sure the fantasy of women who are fine after abortion are just in denial and women who are upset will be traumatized for life perpetuates his/her preconceived notions of what women SHOULD be (baby machines, by the sounds of it), but that fantasy has no basis in reality and doesn't repressent the experience of all women.

btw, what's the cut off age, mustang? When does God start condemning children to hell? 7? 8? 12?
Having one's own child killed will cause any emotionally normal person intense pain and guilt. I don't see how it's equating women to baby machines to think that having your own infant killed will cause intense emotional grief for a person who respects human life at all. And why would one even speculate as to a generic cut-off age for people being spiritually accountable? God judges every person individually, by our own merits. A mentally retarded person couldn't possibly make a decision about Christ, and thus would go to Heaven, I believe. The same goes for infants and young children. One becomes accountable for their eternal fate, I believe, when they truly realize and understand the meaning and implications of Jesus' sacrifice and its relation to their soul's destination.

mustang5
July 10th, 2004, 05:02 PM
Wow!, after reading all this my only comment is that this is what happens when we don't leave things in God's hand. It's all TOO much for us to handle.

Dead On SAM! You need to chime in more often. Shouldn't childbearing be viewed as a priviledge, and not an obligation?

ShadowKnight
July 10th, 2004, 05:19 PM
where i stand on this issue, is that abortion is killing, and destroying life.

there are some main differences between a normal human being and a fetus :

(a) development: as you may notice, there are plenty of people that are not completely developed, but that doesn't mean we should be able to kill them

(b) intelligence: there are plenty of people that are just not capable of thinking, we don't kill them

(c) size : the fetus is small, but we don't kill shorties :)

(d) environment: yes, they are in a womb, but we don't kill people because of their location


the fact is, it is human, if it is not, i would like to ask, what species is it? is it a normal human being? not yet... i say that every human fetus should be allowed to make its own decisions when they grow up. It is not only wrong, but it is destroying the potential of good influence in this world. Everyone should have a chance of life. Think about it this way: look where you are at now, don't you just love life? sure sometimes it sucks, but we would have never been able to experience: love, friends, family, knowledge, God, and many many other things! Think of your BEST time you EVER had in your life, that would have never happened if you got aborted. Life is an awesome privilege, why would you want to take it away from this life that is so awesome?

Sam
July 12th, 2004, 02:32 AM
One thing does become clear...if you think that a fertilized egg is equivalent to a human being, having an abortion will likely result in feelings of guilt. If you view the fertilized egg as a potential human, it is likely that one might regret the circumstances that led to the decision to abort, but not the decision or the abortion itself.

So, if I view a person that I really don't like as not worth living anyway, it's ok to kill him. If I view that same person as having as much worth as me I better not kill him because I might feel guilty. The problem with this "anything goes" attitude is we loose order in society. I don't believe we would have what we have as a society today if everyone did whatever they wanted and justified it by saying"I believed it was ok" There are rules to follow. Good laws are based on morals. Our morals are formed by our conscience which tells us right from wrong. Often we don't know right from wrong until we choose wrong and than realize it was a wrong choice. That's where our intelligence comes in. We must then not be too proud to admit we were wrong and start over choosing right this time. Making abortion legal was a wrong choice. To some it seemed right at the time. Now, that we are seeing the ill effects on people, we need to go back and choose the right choice.

Thanks for the link. I will take the time to read it later.

kwinters
July 12th, 2004, 03:02 AM
A zygote is not a person anymore more than a fertilized chicken egg is a chicken.

Women are full citizens and to legal denigrate them into baby machines without the ability to decide what to do with their own bodies denies them their rights.

Let's not just stop at abortion. Let's incarcerate women who smoke or drink during pregnanacy and call it child abuse prevention. Let's force them to wear a badge so people won't serve them food deemed 'unhealthy' or smoke around them.

Let's just see a pregnant woman for what she is-a womb with no rights.

kwinters
July 12th, 2004, 03:13 AM
Having one's own child killed will cause any emotionally normal person intense pain and guilt. I don't see how it's equating women to baby machines to think that having your own infant killed will cause intense emotional grief for a person who respects human life at all. And why would one even speculate as to a generic cut-off age for people being spiritually accountable? God judges every person individually, by our own merits. A mentally retarded person couldn't possibly make a decision about Christ, and thus would go to Heaven, I believe. The same goes for infants and young children. One becomes accountable for their eternal fate, I believe, when they truly realize and understand the meaning and implications of Jesus' sacrifice and its relation to their soul's destination.

A) You presume everyone views an embryo as a person. Mistake #1
B) Abortion may be a difficult choice, but you can't know better than the woman what she has to do.

There was a good piece written in the Observer yesterday.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,6903,1258558,00.html

As the author writes:

'Mum was one of the lucky ones back in the early Sixties before a 28-year-old David Steel steered the right to a legal abortion through the House of Commons in 1967. Lucky that she didn't bleed to death in a botched procedure, lucky that the untrained abortionist didn't leave her unable to conceive again.

In a way I was lucky, too. For if she hadn't had that abortion she would never have met my father, fallen in love with him, never settled down with him, never given birth - to me. Did she make the right decision? I believe she still looks back with regret. But that doesn't mean she didn't make the right decision.'


Further, the Bible does NOT treat embryos or fetuses as persons:

"And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
Exodus 21:22-25

A woman losing her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the father-to-be taking the participants to court for a settlement. But if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men who killed her shall be killed.

This isn't poetry, its the legal definition of personhood according to the followers of Yahweh.

HappyLady
July 12th, 2004, 03:19 AM
A zygote is not a person anymore more than a fertilized chicken egg is a chicken.

It is a potential life, nonetheless. And irresponsibly getting rid of it is immoral. Did you view that site that DeKazz posted. There wasn't one iota of responsibility displayed in those stories. Legalizing abortion condones irresponsible behavior.


Let's not just stop at abortion. Let's incarcerate women who smoke or drink during pregnanacy and call it child abuse prevention. Let's force them to wear a badge so people won't serve them food deemed 'unhealthy' or smoke around them.

Yes...let's do that! Why should we condone the probability of a woman incarcerating her child to a life of health problems because she too weak to stop smoking or drinking while pregnant. Again, it is irresponsible behavior.

Do you really believe women should have the "right" to smoke and drink during pregnancy?

ShadowKnight
July 12th, 2004, 05:47 AM
A zygote is not a person anymore more than a fertilized chicken egg is a chicken.

read my post :)


Women are full citizens and to legal denigrate them into baby machines without the ability to decide what to do with their own bodies denies them their rights.

i'm not sure if i understood that... but why did they have babies in the first place? if they were raped, that still doesn't give them the right to choose the fate of a human. Let the baby have a chance at life, why destroy it? What is the purpose of that? Let it have its own life and decide for itself, what they want to do. Once it's alive, it's alive, they may not be able to think for a while, but once they do, it's all up to them. It's the same thing with babies, they can't think, can they? what makes it so different from a fetus?



Let's not just stop at abortion. Let's incarcerate women who smoke or drink during pregnanacy and call it child abuse prevention. Let's force them to wear a badge so people won't serve them food deemed 'unhealthy' or smoke around them.

right...



Let's just see a pregnant woman for what she is-a womb with no rights.

okay, the fetus is now a separate life, still on life support from mom ;) but none the less, it is now life, on my post above, i put out the big differences between us and them, yet just because they cannot think, are not fully developed, and are small, we just don't kill them. There are many people in this world that can't think, we don't kill them, there are many people who are not fully developed, we don't kill them, their size, whatever may be the case. If that baby could be a thinking individual for JUST a moment, what would you think they would say? what would YOU say if that was you?

Spartacus
July 12th, 2004, 07:14 AM
, just as the many anti-choice sites select stories about women who do regret their choice. "anti-choice" I've noticed this buzzword being bandied about by pro-abortion groups for a while now. Newsweek even used it in an article. If you are going to call prof-life "anti-choice", then be fair and call pro-choice "anti-life" or "pro-abortion".


In most cases, the reasons for having the abortion are a combination of being too young, not having a stable relationship, not wanting to be pregnant in the first place, etc. Selfish reasons for ending a human life yes?


One thing does become clear...if you think that a fertilized egg is equivalent to a human being, having an abortion will likely result in feelings of guilt. If you view the fertilized egg as a potential human, it is likely that one might regret the circumstances that led to the decision to abort, but not the decision or the abortion itself.

It's easier to kill any human when we think of them as "less han human". That's why in WII the soldiers killed Japs and Krauts...not human beings. The scietific fact is that once an egg is fertilized it has DNA identifying it as a anothe human separate from the mother or father. It is this scietific fact along with advanced technology that has allowed filming inside the uterus which has created somany regrets among post-abortion women. that eventually separate


I have never had an abortion. However, I am 49 years old and apparently just as fertile as ever. If my birth control fails, I have already decided, with the concurrence of my husband, that I will have an abortion immediately. There is no way that I can bear or raise another child at my age. While I hope that the circumstance does not occur, I am grateful to live in a nation where that decision is mine, and my husband's, rather than the government's.

Why not have your husband get a vasectomy then? Why risk creating a human life if you only plan to kill it should the life be created? Why risk you undergoing a DNC when your husband can get it all taken care of in less than an hour? If he won't do this for you then he's pretty shallow and selfish.



P.S. Look for the stories from women who had abortions before Roe v Wade...it is chilling, what they had to go through.
Ever think of the other side? What about the almost 40 million humans who were killed before they were ever brought into the world? Note I used the word "human" not human being...or potential human.....your use of the pro-abortion lingo is not allowing to view this issue in its fullness.

Spartacus
July 12th, 2004, 07:20 AM
It is a potential life, nonetheless. And irresponsibly getting rid of it is immoral. Did you view that site that DeKazz posted. There wasn't one iota of responsibility displayed in those stories. Legalizing abortion condones irresponsible behavior.

The egg is a potential life. The sperm is a potential life. When the two combine and cells begin to grow and divide...then that is life. In huimans it is human life.

We can debate what that life feels or if it has a soul until the cows come home...but biologically, scientificly and genticly a separate human life is created when the cells begin to grow and divide. Those are scietific facts no one can dispute. It is also this realization I think that causes so much trouble to some women after their abortions when they have had a chance to reflect on exactly what it is they have actually done.

HappyLady
July 12th, 2004, 08:53 AM
We can debate what that life feels or if it has a soul until the cows come home...but biologically, scientificly and genticly a separate human life is created when the cells begin to grow and divide. Those are scietific facts no one can dispute.

But they are disputed. Some people don't place the value on an actual lifeform until the baby is actually born...or until the second or even third trimester. Some consider it a life when the heart starts to beat.

I think it is a stronger argument for anti-abortionists to concede that it is irrelevant where life actually begins, but rather emphasize that even doing away with a potential life (after the sperm and egg unite) is irresponsible and akin to murder.

Spartacus
July 12th, 2004, 10:06 AM
But they are disputed. Some people don't place the value on an actual lifeform until the baby is actually born...or until the second or even third trimester. Some consider it a life when the heart starts to beat.

I think it is a stronger argument for anti-abortionists to concede that it is irrelevant where life actually begins, but rather emphasize that even doing away with a potential life (after the sperm and egg unite) is irresponsible and akin to murder.

Just because the life is small, in an early stage of development, and needs a special envrionment does not make it dead or non-human. You are ignoring proven biological facts here.

HappyLady
July 12th, 2004, 05:48 PM
Just because the life is small, in an early stage of development, and needs a special envrionment does not make it dead or non-human. You are ignoring proven biological facts here.

Sparty, (can I call ya Sparty?) *I* believe that life begins once the sperm and the egg meet and do their little dance. But a lot of pro-choicers argue that we can't legitimately call it a HUMAN life. Perhaps it is an embryonic life, or something like that. In the Contraception and Society thread, there was an argument going on for a while that if we consider the union a life, then the sperm is a life, then even a skin cell is a life.

I think it is more important to emhasize that abortion is killing potential. A pro-choicer will almost never accept that they are actually killing a human being. We could lead more bees to honey if anti-abortionists advocated the importance of the potential human life and the responsibility we need to take with potential human life rather than simply calling all those who choose abortion "murderers".

mrs_innocent
July 12th, 2004, 07:09 PM
Yes...let's do that! Why should we condone the probability of a woman incarcerating her child to a life of health problems because she too weak to stop smoking or drinking while pregnant. Again, it is irresponsible behavior.

Do you really believe women should have the "right" to smoke and drink during pregnancy?

Irresponsible behavior is never going to be stopped, regardless of what inane tactics one may conjure up.

While it's probably not the best thing, smoking and/or drinking during pregnancy are far from the worst things a pregnant woman could be doing. Proposing incarceration for such women (or any other off the wall penalty) is as ridiculous as saying a driver going 5 miles over the speed limit should be imprisoned. The self-righteous feel they know what's best for everyone and believe they have the right to impose their views on the rest of the world; that's what should be punishable.

Fyshhed
July 12th, 2004, 10:03 PM
My personal opinion is that men should not have the authority to make the rules on abortion. We can't fully understand what it's like, so we should just back off and allow the women to decide what it is they want.

If the decision has to be made for a couple, I think the man should have a say, but legalization, which is determining whether it is acceptable as a society to be able to do this... that's not our business. ;)

ShadowKnight
July 12th, 2004, 10:52 PM
Fetus is alive, right when the sperm meets the egg, it is on it way to being a human, living, being. What do you consider a human being to be then? i would like everyone to define what a human being is, or human life? let's break this down a little bit, what is human life? please define it the best you can.

Spartacus
July 13th, 2004, 04:18 AM
Sparty, (can I call ya Sparty?) *I* believe that life begins once the sperm and the egg meet and do their little dance. But a lot of pro-choicers argue that we can't legitimately call it a HUMAN life. Perhaps it is an embryonic life, or something like that. In the Contraception and Society thread, there was an argument going on for a while that if we consider the union a life, then the sperm is a life, then even a skin cell is a life.




These arguments ignore some basic biologica facts, laws and princiapls.

1.) The Law of Biogenesis states cats make cats, dogs amke dogs and humans make humans. Humans do not make cats.

2.) All mamls go through developmental stages, zygote, fetus, embryo, etc. Humans make human zygotes, cats make cat zygotes.

3.) When we talk about abortion we are talking about humans -- not cats por dogs. To be accurate we should refer top them as human embryos, human, zygotes, etc. The life is not "embryonic". The life is human.

4.) Eggs and sperms do not divide and grow until they the egg is fertilized. When the cells begin to grow and divide, biologically, and gentically that is when life begins. that is the only time with certainity we can point and say "aha there is life". We have no problem decalring these facts in animal husbandry.

5.) These are all uncontested biological facts.

6.) WIthin our society we have chosen to ignore these biological facts and adopt certain catch phrases and euphasisms all in an effort to escape these facts and eliminate them from discussion when the topic is abortion.

7.) It is the realization in #6 that when it finally sinks in -- perhaps not even consciously -- that women begin to have problems post abortion.

Sam
July 14th, 2004, 02:29 AM
DeKazz, that's an interesting web site. I just read several stories. Although they sound like a good support for pro-choice they really don't address the women's true deep down feelings. We can't know that unless they are willing to tell. I would like to look at their lives as a whole. Have any had lasting relationships? Have they been able to have more"wanted" children with no problems conceiving? What about STDs? Any of those to deal with? How many have had to deal with breast cancer? Any drinking problems, drug abuse, eating disorders? Maybe I haven't read enough but these are not things that will be said on a site in support of abortion. In the stories I read so far, each woman made her decision based on her own life and her boyfriends life. What about the babies lives? That was not considered. Only Me, Me, Me. Often, the right decision is not convenient.

HappyLady
July 14th, 2004, 05:20 AM
Irresponsible behavior is never going to be stopped, regardless of what inane tactics one may conjure up.

Yes, two wrongs don't make a right. But that doesn't make irresponsible behavior right. So, what happens in society is a woman gets to smoke and drink through her whole pregnancy and deal with the repercussions of plaguing her child with health problems. OR, she can decide she is too irresponsible to have a baby, and kill the baby with an abortion before it even has a chance to be born with all those health problems. Yeah...that sounds like solutions.


While it's probably not the best thing, smoking and/or drinking during pregnancy are far from the worst things a pregnant woman could be doing.

Yes, worse would be using illegal drugs. Yet both legal drugs and illegal drugs can do significant harm to a fetus. We have laws in place to prevent all people from using illegal drugs, and that is a protection of the fetus. But there are no laws in place to prevent the use of legal drugs, and that does not protect the fetus.


Proposing incarceration for such women (or any other off the wall penalty) is as ridiculous as saying a driver going 5 miles over the speed limit should be imprisoned.

But it was your suggestion, wasn't it? I was just following your lead. ;)


The self-righteous feel they know what's best for everyone and believe they have the right to impose their views on the rest of the world; that's what should be punishable.

While I understand where you're coming from, I believe there is a difference between promoting self-righteousness, and promoting responsible behavior. Did you happen to visit that site that DeKazz posted. There are hundreds of stories of deliberate promiscuity without birth control, where the woman was simply fixing a mistake by having an abortion. As for (excessive) smoking and (excessive) drinking during pregnancy, that is incredibly irresponsible. Why would anyone condone it as being a person's right to do it?

HappyLady
July 14th, 2004, 05:25 AM
3.) When we talk about abortion we are talking about humans -- not cats por dogs. To be accurate we should refer top them as human embryos, human, zygotes, etc. The life is not "embryonic". The life is human.

No, the life is an "embryo." It may be a "human embryo" or a "cat embryo", but it is still an "embryo." It cannot function and live as a fully developed human being and is therefore, a potential human being. The debate comes in when we try to place value on how much is an embryo worth compared to an actual functioning human being.

Let's look at miscarriages. A woman has a miscarriage and grieves for what "could have been." When a baby dies, we grieve for what "is". What we need to do is encourage people to place as much value on what "could be" as what "is."

mrs_innocent
July 14th, 2004, 06:22 AM
But it was your suggestion, wasn't it? I was just following your lead.

No. It wasn't. I believe the suggestion came from ShadowKnight.


While I understand where you're coming from, I believe there is a difference between promoting self-righteousness, and promoting responsible behavior.

There is a difference, but a vague one. What I may think is responsible behavior, you may feel is simply your right, and vice versa. The ideal of "responsible behavior", much like morals, is subjective. My "self-righteous" comment was directed more toward those who feel something is wrong plain and simple, and because of this they want their belief imposed upon all of society in general.


Did you happen to visit that site that DeKazz posted. There are hundreds of stories of deliberate promiscuity without birth control, where the woman was simply fixing a mistake by having an abortion.

Yes, in fact, I did. And I agree that the stories are full of what most would consider the 'wrong reasons.' The site is certainly not advocating any sort of responsibility, but rather a 'do as you please' attitude.


As for (excessive) smoking and (excessive) drinking during pregnancy, that is incredibly irresponsible. Why would anyone condone it as being a person's right to do it?

First, I'd like to point out that the term 'excessive' was not used prior to your post, and it does make a difference in the argument. I do agree with you that both of these activities are very irresponsible, but -again- that is subjective. I smoked with my last 2 pregnancies, and even though I took care of myself in every other way, I know that I was *lucky* enough to have my daughters end up healthy. But I'm not really ashamed of it. In fact, when I consulted my OB/GYN about quitting, she told me my best option at that point was to simply cut down as suddenly stopping would do more harm than good. So, no, I wouldn't condone it as a woman's right per se, I wouldn't admonish her for it either.

HappyLady
July 14th, 2004, 07:00 AM
No. It wasn't. I believe the suggestion came from ShadowKnight.

My apologies. I thought it was you and I was too lazy to go looking. ;)




The ideal of "responsible behavior", much like morals, is subjective.

But, like morals, there are some terms that are not subjective. It is pretty much universal that cold-blooded murder is wrong. Is there anyone who would disagree that having sex without any birthcontrol when you don't want to get pregnant and have no intentions of staying pregnant is responsible?


My "self-righteous" comment was directed more toward those who feel something is wrong plain and simple, and because of this they want their belief imposed upon all of society in general.

I agree. That drives me nuts, too.


Yes, in fact, I did. And I agree that the stories are full of what most would consider the 'wrong reasons.' The site is certainly not advocating any sort of responsibility, but rather a 'do as you please' attitude.

Then, what is a "responsible reason" to have an abortion? As KevinBrowning pointed out, somewhere, only about 6% of abortions are done due to incest, rape, or the life of the mother being in jeopardy (which would seem like the responsible, yet still controversial, reasons. Over 40% of abortions are done because the woman either "couldn't afford to have a baby" or "didn't feel ready for the responsibility." That is atrocious.


First, I'd like to point out that the term 'excessive' was not used prior to your post, and it does make a difference in the argument.

That is why I put it in parenthesis. There has been no evidence to suggest having an occassional drink or smoke will be harmful to a fetus.


I do agree with you that both of these activities are very irresponsible, but -again- that is subjective.

There is enough evidence to suggest that excessive smoking and drinking creates a very high risk of health problems for a baby. Who would view that as responsible? How is it subjective?


I smoked with my last 2 pregnancies...But I'm not really ashamed of it... In fact, when I consulted my OB/GYN about quitting, she told me my best option at that point was to simply cut down as suddenly stopping would do more harm than good. So, no, I wouldn't condone it as a woman's right per se, I wouldn't admonish her for it either.

So, basically, what happened here, is you were participating in an irresponsible behavior prior to even getting pregnant, and then rather than quitting before you got pregnant to ensure having a very healthy baby instead of depending on "luck", you simply continued the irresponsible behavior. Then, when you did get pregnant and felt guilty about it, you were informed it was too late and that your irresponsible actions could not be prevented now. But you shouldn't feel ashamed because you got "lucky", and you wouldn't admonish another woman for it, even if she didn't get "lucky"?

I don't mean to sound so harsh there...Lord knows I am not the poster child for Responsibility. It isn't like me to be so "in your face." But what I see there is an attempt to justify irresponsible actions, which is exactly what you hear from women who get abortions because they were "shocked" that they got pregnant when they used no birth control.

ShadowKnight
July 14th, 2004, 09:21 AM
No. It wasn't. I believe the suggestion came from ShadowKnight.

huh? what? i don't think that was me...

HappyLady
July 14th, 2004, 09:28 AM
huh? what? i don't think that was me...

it was kwinters.

kwinters
July 16th, 2004, 03:04 AM
It is a potential life, nonetheless. And irresponsibly getting rid of it is immoral.

Not according to your Bible.




Yes...let's do that! Why should we condone the probability of a woman incarcerating her child to a life of health problems because she too weak to stop smoking or drinking while pregnant. Again, it is irresponsible behavior.

Do you really believe women should have the "right" to smoke and drink during pregnancy?

Tell me you're not serious.

HappyLady
July 16th, 2004, 04:23 AM
Not according to your Bible.

While I am a Catholic, please keep in mind that I do embrace other world religions. I do not live my life the Bible alone. With that said, what do you mean?






Tell me you're not serious.

No. I wasn't serious. But you didn't answer the question. Do you think it should be a woman's "right" to smoke and drink, (let's include excessively) during pregnancy, knowing there is a high probability that it will cause health problems for the child?

mrs_innocent
July 16th, 2004, 08:27 AM
it was kwinters.

Thanks! Sorry Shadow, a moment of confusion.

KevinBrowning
July 16th, 2004, 10:38 AM
Interesting that no pro-choicers have answered David's request to define "life."

ShadowKnight
July 16th, 2004, 12:23 PM
that is right, someone please define "life" so we can break this argument down.

3rdPersonPlural
July 16th, 2004, 12:59 PM
that is right, someone please define "life" so we can break this argument down.

I'm neither pro life or pro choice, but I'll take a stab at defining life. I just hired a fiduciary last week and drafted a DPOAH - Durable Power of Attorney for Health - so I've thought about this stuff recently.

Life is the bundle of opportunities that compliment living. Take away those opportunities, or diminish them beyond some ill-defined critical mass, and life is just a bodily function.

In my opinion an old 3PP hooked up to life support is a fetus without a future and life is over. I guess the question here is; does an unwanted baby have a future?

ShadowKnight
July 16th, 2004, 01:03 PM
I'm neither pro life or pro choice, but I'll take a stab at defining life. I just hired a fiduciary last week and drafted a DPOAH - Durable Power of Attorney for Health - so I've thought about this stuff recently.

Life is the bundle of opportunities that compliment living. Take away those opportunities, or diminish them beyond some ill-defined critical mass, and life is just a bodily function.

In my opinion an old 3PP hooked up to life support is a fetus without a future and life is over. I guess the question here is; does an unwanted baby have a future?

yes, they do. maybe unwanted by their mother, but i want them to live. And just because someone is unwanted, should not justify killing them.

3rdPersonPlural
July 16th, 2004, 01:16 PM
yes, they do. maybe unwanted by their mother, but i want them to live. And just because someone is unwanted, should not justify killing them.


Well, my brother thinks like you do and has 20 adopted crack babies of assorted lineages and ages in his home. His money, and lifestyle, is right where his mouth is.

Are you prepared to adopt? White babies are in demand, so you should count on a pretty 'minority' brood. They'll be wanted in the SK household, and the state pays a nice stipend to raise 'em, so, by gum, they're yours!

ShadowKnight
July 16th, 2004, 01:51 PM
actually, i am seriously thinking about adopting when i grow up, because i feel that strongly about it. I hate to think that they are just there without parents, i want to, and wouldn't mine. I am willing.

Sam
July 17th, 2004, 06:33 AM
Please, let's stick to the title of this thread. Anyone want to talk about their abortion?

Fyshhed
July 17th, 2004, 12:10 PM
Would if I could. Can't have one though, sorry :(
I don't think anyone on this board has, not at least who's spoken up about it.

FruitandNut
July 22nd, 2004, 01:28 AM
For some, the choice of having an abortion is rather like choosing, or not, to get a car, a matter of personal subjective choice. For the rest of us such a decision is fraught with a multitude of issues and feelings. It is who we are in our mind that largely rules any decision, and outcome we may experience.

I am pro-life, but after seeing 'The Cardinal' and also knowing people who have had such a termination proceedure, and having some info from inside the medical world, I realise things are far from straightforward.