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Snoop
June 28th, 2007, 10:26 AM
The fanatics who use decapitation as a device of intimidation are imitating their western adversaries from the past - I wonder if they know that?



An honorable death
Decapitation has been used as a form of capital punishment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment) for millennia. The terms capital offense, capital crime, and capital punishment derive from the punishment for serious offenses being the inserting of the criminal's head into a hole. Decapitation by sword (or axe, a military weapon as well) was sometimes considered the "honorable" way to die for an aristocrat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristocracy), who, presumably being a warrior, could often expect to die by the sword in any event; in England it was considered a privilege of noblemen to be beheaded. This would be distinguished from a "dishonorable" death on the gallows (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallows) or through burning at the stake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burning_at_the_stake). High Treason (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Treason) by nobles was punished by beheading; male commoners, including knights (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knight), were hanged, drawn, and quartered (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanged%2C_drawn%2C_and_quartered); female commoners were burned at the stake (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burned_at_the_stake). Decapitation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beheadings)


"Beheadings are a common tactic usually used by radical Sunni groups such as al-Qaeda in Iraq, but finding such large numbers of victims in one group are rare." 20 beheaded bodies found near Baghdad | NEWS.com.au (http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21984064-1702,00.html)

Thursday June 28, 2007 2:46 PM


AP Photo BAG101, BAG104, BAG103
By SINAN SALAHEDDIN
Associated Press Writer
BAGHDAD (AP) - Twenty beheaded bodies were discovered Thursday on the banks of the Tigris River southeast of Baghdad and a car bomb killed another 20 people in one of the capital's busy outdoor bus stations, police said.
The beheaded remains were found in the Sunni Muslim village of Um al-Abeed, near the city of Salman Pak, which lies 14 miles southeast of Baghdad.
The bodies - all men aged 20 to 40 - had their hands and legs bound, and some of the heads were found next to the bodies, two officers said on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to release the information.
The victims' identities were unknown, but they were found in an area where Shiite travelers have been kidnapped and killed in the past, en route to the Shiite-dominated provinces of Wasit, Maysan and Basra.
A bomb in a parked car ripped through a crowded transport hub in southwest Baghdad's Baiyaa neighborhood at morning rush hour, killing at least 20 people and wounding more than 50, another officer said on the same condition.
Many of the victims had been lining up for buses, awaiting a ride to work. Some 40 minibuses were incinerated, police said.
Baiyaa is a mixed area with a Shiite majority, but it is also the main commercial center of a Sunni-dominated part of Baghdad on the west bank of the Tigris River. It is one of a string of neighborhoods just south of the main road to Baghdad International Airport where sectarian tensions have been running high.
AP Television News video showed a square strewn with smoldering car parts and charred bodies with clothes in tatters. Bystanders, some weeping, gingerly loaded human remains into ambulances.
A pickup truck rumbled slowly away from the scene, with two pairs of legs - the dead bodies of victims - dangling out of the back.
One of the police officers who gave information about the ghastly discovery of bodies southeast of Baghdad is based at Interior Ministry headquarters in the capital, and the other is based in Kut, 100 miles southeast of Baghdad.
Sporadic clashes had been under way in the Salman Pak area for several days, between Interior Ministry commandos and suspected insurgents, the Kut officer said. It was unclear whether the discovery of the bodies was related to the recent fighting.
Salman Pak and its surrounding area has been the focus of new U.S. military operations to oust suspected al-Qaida fighters from the Baghdad's outskirts. American forces launched a drive into Salman Pak and neighboring Arab Jabour two weeks ago. At the time, ground forces commander Lt. Gen. Raymond Odierno said U.S. troops were heading into those areas in force for the first time in three years. 20 Beheaded Bodies Found in Iraq | World Latest | Guardian Unlimited (http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6742797,00.html)

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The recent beheadings are against muslim law unless they were ordered by a muslim court. The beheaders should be beheaded - if they get caught.

Capital Punishment in Islam

From Huda (http://islam.about.com/mbiopage.htm),
Your Guide to Islam (http://islam.about.com/).

"...If anyone kills a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all people. And if anyone saves a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all people" (Qur'an 5:32).
Life is sacred, according to Islam and most other world faiths. But how can one hold life sacred, yet still support capital punishment? The Qur'an answers, "...Take not life, which God has made sacred, except by way of justice and law. Thus does He command you, so that you may learn wisdom" (6:151).
The key point is that one may take life only "by way of justice and law." In Islam, therefore, the death penalty can be applied by a court as punishment for the most serious of crimes. Ultimately, one's eternal punishment is in God's hands, but there is a place for punishment in this life as well. The spirit of the Islamic penal code is to save lives, promote justice, and prevent corruption and tyranny.
Islamic philosophy holds that a harsh punishment serves as a deterrent to serious crimes that harm individual victims, or threaten to destabilize the foundation of society. According to Islamic law (in the first verse quoted above), the following two crimes can be punishable by death:

Intentional murder
Fasad fil-ardh ("spreading mischief in the land")
Intentional Murder

The Qur'an legislates the death penalty for murder, although forgiveness and compassion are strongly encouraged. The murder victim's family is given a choice to either insist on the death penalty, or to pardon the perpetrator and accept monetary compensation for their loss (2:178). Fasaad fi al-ardh

The second crime for which capital punishment can be applied is a bit more open to interpretation. "Spreading mischief in the land" can mean many different things, but is generally interpreted to mean those crimes that affect the community as a whole, and destabilize the society. Crimes that have fallen under this description have included:

Treason / Apostacy (when one leaves the faith and joins the enemy in fighting against the Muslim community)
Terrorism
Land, sea, or air piracy
Rape
Adultery
Homosexual behaviorActual methods of capital punishment vary from place to place. In some Muslim countries, methods have included beheading, hanging, stoning, and firing squad. Executions are held publicly, to serve as warnings to would-be criminals. It is important to note that there is no place for vigilantism in Islam -- one must be properly convicted in an Islamic court of law before the punishment can be meted out. The severity of the punishment requires that very strict evidence standards must be met before a conviction is found. The court also has flexibility to order less than the ultimate punishment (for example, imposing fines or prison sentences), on a case-by-case basis.


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wanxtrmBANNED
June 28th, 2007, 11:06 AM
Off with their heads!

eliotitus
June 28th, 2007, 12:25 PM
naughty naughty snoop, what if the radical sunni's see this, you'll have to be beheaded for comparing them to the evil west.

Squatch347
June 28th, 2007, 04:33 PM
I think its a bit different though. Western society used beheadings because it was humane.

The French guillotine was supposed to fast, thats why it was used.

Nobleman were allowed to use it because it was much, much faster than hangings. A hanging didn't break your neck then it suffocated you.

Radical Muslims use it as a weapon of fear, slow, bloody decapitation

Now if you mean they are imitating us because the simple action is similar, than uh ok, sure.

Turtleflipper
June 28th, 2007, 06:12 PM
I think its a bit different though. Western society used beheadings because it was humane.

The French guillotine was supposed to fast, thats why it was used.


It has another dimension actually (other then it being industrially efficent execution).

Anyways, beheading was a noble execution. You had to willingly put your head down, and hold still. Be brave and accept it. Because if you twitched, it wouldn't go clean, and you'd suffer a long, painful death. The noose was the "every man's" way of dying. Struggle, scream, kick, you'll die all the same. You'll notice Henry the Sixth's second wife was beheaded.
The gulluitine kinda embodied the "equality" thing. Rich or poor, noble or peasent, you die the same way. Which is why we still hung people (if done by the long drop method more humane then beheading actually for the dying and the audience) up until the invention of the electric chair.



Nobleman were allowed to use it because it was much, much faster than hangings. A hanging didn't break your neck then it suffocated you.


Well, an everyman's short drop didn't. But in the later Middle Ages they invented the standard drop, which had a fair chance at functional decapitation and instant death.




Now if you mean they are imitating us because the simple action is similar, than uh ok, sure.


If they wanted to use a tradional "western" execution for the most henious criminals, they'd draw and quarter people.

Squatch347
June 28th, 2007, 06:24 PM
Excellent points, I had forgotten about that aspect. The regular drop was still pretty rare until the nineteenth century though. And I think this only shows even more so that the comparison to modern beheadings is a bit spurious.

Snoop
June 28th, 2007, 06:30 PM
The second crime for which capital punishment can be applied is a bit more open to interpretation. "Spreading mischief in the land" can mean many different things, but is generally interpreted to mean those crimes that affect the community as a whole, and destabilize the society. Crimes that have fallen under this description have included:

Treason / Apostacy (when one leaves the faith and joins the enemy in fighting against the Muslim community)
Terrorism
Land, sea, or air piracy
Rape
Adultery
Homosexual behaviorI found this interesting ... "spreading mischief in the land ... affecting the community and destabilizing society" - I do that all the time here at ODN, yet you don't want to kill me - do you?

What the new wave of beheadings has done is to indoctrinate a new generation of fanatics - the children who have to grow up seeing this barbarism.

FruitandNut
June 28th, 2007, 08:55 PM
It is interesting that in the eyes of a radical Sunni, just to be Shiite makes you Apostate - and vice versa. It is a bit like things were during the worst periods of the Reformation.

Perhaps in another 450 years, if humanity hasn't zilched itself in the meantime, then Islam may also have gotten it's 'zealots' into at least not killing folks for seeing things differently. The problem being of course that they will have to ditch following a lot of Muhammed's instructions and ways first.

shinguru9
July 1st, 2007, 08:17 AM
I agree that decapitation was an honorable form of punishment in western civilization. A noble aristocrat, who commited a capital offense, died instanteously, whereas a poor peasant, who commited the same crime, endured a slow and painful torture at the stake. The justice system was flawed.
I doubt that decapitation is mentioned in the Ko'ran, let alone officialized as a rightful form of punishment. You mentioned an incident in which Islamic terrorists decapitated twenty people. Those decapitations were religiously motivated and were not authorized by the judicial system. The Islamic terrorists most likely killed those people to please God; a radicalist, at some point in their lives, drilled into their heads the notion of an angry God who voraciously hated anyone who dared not worship Him.
Terrorists who justify their crimes in the name of Allah do not represent the majority of Islamic population. The Ko'ran, like any other religious text, is open to multiple interpretations, and it can certainly be argued that Islam does not condone violence nor decapitation in any manner. Therefore, I am appalled by you previous comment, Fruit and Nut, that in order for terrorism to stop Muslims have to change their religious laws and principles.:tickedoff: ---"The problem being of course that they will have to ditch following a lot of Muhammed's instructions and ways first"---
Decapitation cannot be compared in Islam, terrorism, or western society.

Snoop
July 1st, 2007, 09:03 AM
Decapitation cannot be compared in Islam, terrorism, or western society.Why is there no MUSLIM outrage over these acts? You know, like public denouncement, law enforcement, etc.?

shinguru9
July 1st, 2007, 09:32 AM
Why is there no MUSLIM outrage over these acts? You know, like public denouncement, law enforcement, etc.?

Oh but there is.
Islam Denounces Terrorism (http://www.islamdenouncesterrorism.com/terrorism1.htm)

An Iraqi muslim cannot harangue about the evils of terrorism out in the streets. There is no outspoken Muslim outrage in Iraq because of the terrorist threat to kill anyone who dares to oppose them. The Saudi Arabian government, which is muslim, has openly condemned terrorism and supported the United States in the War on Terror by sending troops to Iraq.

I want to revert to decapitation. Here's a good question: Isn't decapitation a form of terrorism since it is primarily violent and instills fear in people?

Snoop
July 1st, 2007, 09:35 AM
I want to revert to decapitation. Here's a good question: Isn't decapitation a form of terrorism since it is primarily violent and instills fear in people?Absolutely. My op was being sarcstic. The only thing useful about beheadings is that it can mean a swift death if done correctly - which makes it almost humane in dire circumstances.

Squatch347
July 2nd, 2007, 03:54 PM
An Iraqi muslim cannot harangue about the evils of terrorism out in the streets. There is no outspoken Muslim outrage in Iraq because of the terrorist threat to kill anyone who dares to oppose them. Ok, I'll buy the reasons for those in the Islamic world not speaking out. But what about those in Western Europe or the US. While there have been a few refutations of violence, what stands out is the deafening silence.