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chosen2nd
October 28th, 2008, 10:08 AM
i will give some one 10,000 dolllars to show me where in any law book of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA where you have to pay fed tax. im not talking about state tax . i want to see proof of a federal income tax law stsaying its is the law to pay federal income tax. now on the other hand they do require you to fill out a form. fill the form with all zeros and there you have it you done what they asked and wont be penalized

Rogue Cardinal
October 28th, 2008, 10:22 AM
You must be one of those Ron Paul people.

DevilPup John
October 28th, 2008, 10:34 AM
i will give some one 10,000 dolllars to show me where in any law book of the UNITED STATES of AMERICA where you have to pay fed tax.

There are many different law books, each with different laws, most of them states, counties, and municipalities... I do not believe there is actually a text of Federal Law, since Federal Law is passed by the Congress. But I am sure there is a record of that.


im not talking about state tax . i want to see proof of a federal income tax law stsaying its is the law to pay federal income tax. now on the other hand they do require you to fill out a form. fill the form with all zeros and there you have it you done what they asked and wont be penalized


Anyway.

If I remember correctly the Federal Congress shall pass any laws it needs to pass in order to do its job. This is called the necessary and proper clause.

Quote from law.onecle.com:


The Necessary and Proper Clause, sometimes called the “coefficient” or “elastic” clause, is an enlargement, not a constriction, of the powers expressly granted to Congress. Chief Justice Marshall’s classic opinion in McCulloch v. Maryland 11 set the standard in words that reverberate to this day. “Let the end be legitimate,” he wrote, “let it be within the scope of the Constitution, and all means which are appropriate, which are plainly adapted to that end, which are not prohibited, but consistent with the letter and spirit of the Constitution, are constitutional.”1730 Moreover, the provision gives Congress a share in the responsibilities lodged in other departments, by virtue of its right to enact legislation necessary to carry into execution all powers vested in the National Government. Conversely, where necessary for the efficient execution of its own powers, Congress may delegate some measure of legislative power to other departments.1731

Quote from onecle again:


Reinforced by the necessary and proper clause, the powers “‘to lay and collect taxes, to pay the debts and provide for the common defence and general welfare of the United States,’ and ‘to borrow money on the credit of the United States and to coin money and regulate the value thereon . . . ,’”1750 have been held to give Congress virtually complete control over money and currency. A prohibitive tax on the notes of state banks,1751 the issuance of treasury notes impressed with the quality of legal tender in payment of private debts1752 and the abrogation of clauses in private contracts, which called for payment in gold coin,1753 were sustained as appropriate measures for carrying into effect some or all of the foregoing powers.

Basically...

The Congress may pass any law that is necessary and proper to fulfill its duty to the nation. This is done through taxes, and other means. But you specifically asked about taxes.

This is another little piece of info its all highlighted so you can skim er through:

http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:eDOIQ2dTMz8J:www.loc.gov/rr/business/hottopic/irs_history.html+first+Federal+Income+tax+law&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

So there you have it. The Congress has the power to pass a law that is necessary and proper to fulfill its duty. It did this using the 16th Amendment.

Direct quote from 16th Amendment:


The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

Where is my 10,000 dollars?

Sources used:

16th Amendment
http://www.loc.gov/rr/business/hottopic/irs_history.html
http://law.onecle.com/constitution/article-1/49-necessary-and-proper-clause.html

cds69
October 28th, 2008, 11:01 AM
Screw it, you win. You don't have to pay, I concede.

You go ahead and start filling in your 1040 forms in with all zeros. I'll send you a care package when you're in the pen.

Sigfried
October 28th, 2008, 01:54 PM
Devil pup looks like he's got it. Hope you're rich or dishonest there chosen.

DevilPup John
October 28th, 2008, 01:57 PM
I could really use them ten thousand clams man.

I got a few mods I would like to slap into my guitar.

Could also get a cold air intake for my Mustang GT, a short throw shifter...

Man, I better start making a list. So many toys, what to buy what to buy.

Hey, can I just have Guitar Center forward you a tab?

onalandline
October 28th, 2008, 07:55 PM
Chosen just sold his soul to the Devil! I think he may not have your money. Maybe you can use this thread as evidence in a court of law that this person owes you $10,000.

DevilPup John
October 28th, 2008, 08:23 PM
Ahh. I do not think I could persuade a civil court that in fact this is a legal binding document.

Its not even notarized...

Oh well...

cds69
October 28th, 2008, 09:22 PM
Is it just me, or does anyone else seem to meet this guy like once a month?

You know the guy I'm talking about. The Cliff Claven type who GUARANTEES you that it's a little known fact that because the 16th Amendment was written on the back of a dirty cocktail napkins from Hooters that federal income taxation is unconstitutional and that the IRS is just hoping that no one blurts it out on Judge Judy. He'll go on by telling you there is a double top-secret loophole that states if you hand deliver your 1040EZ form directly to the IRS office wrapped in the still-warm outer skin of an eviscerated Ox bladder you can get an additional tax credit.

Then he bums a cigarette from you and asks for some change because he's 75 cents short on a half-pint of Wild Irish Rose.

DevilPup John
October 28th, 2008, 09:26 PM
I find it fun...

I am kind of disappointed that I do not get my ten grand though...

I really could have used it.

chosen2nd
October 29th, 2008, 08:01 PM
ok theres documents showing a federal income tax. just as there is documents showing every other government action. but this is what i want you to do people out there look in any search engine type in ----laws on federal income tax or federal income tax laws---- and guess what theres nothing. i mean if its law it should be in some law book right. oh and i found all kinda stuff on state income tax but why nothing on federal income

DevilPup John
October 29th, 2008, 08:28 PM
ok theres documents showing a federal income tax. just as there is documents showing every other government action. but this is what i want you to do people out there look in any search engine type in ----laws on federal income tax or federal income tax laws---- and guess what theres nothing. i mean if its law it should be in some law book right. oh and i found all kinda stuff on state income tax but why nothing on federal income

Wow...

Alright I was going to be nice about this, but that time has passed.

Listen up buckaroo.

The Constitution IS law. It is THE law of THE land.

And there is a law... it is in the 16th amendment.... This law allows Congress to make laws regarding taxes.


The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several states, and without regard to any census or enumeration.

The amendments to the constitution are LAW.

Have you ever taken basic constitutional LAW? Its called constitutional law... because its law...

Here is what I got when I typed in your little bit of search information:


In 1913, the Sixteenth Amendment to the U.S. Constitution was ratified. It empowered Congress to tax "incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." The Internal Revenue Code is today embodied as Title 26 of the United States Code (26 U.S.C.) and is a lineal descendant of the income tax act passed in 1913, following ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment. While some states do not have an income tax (Nevada), all residents and all citizens of the United States are subject to the federal income tax. Not everyone, however, must file a return. The requirements for filing are found in 26 U.S.C. § 6011. As the largest contributor, its purpose is to generate revenue for the federal budget. In 1985 for example, the government collected over $450 billion in income tax from a total of $742 billion in total internal revenue receipts. The funds collected are essential for the shaping and preservation of a free market economy.

Some terms are essential in understanding income tax law. "Gross income" can be generaly defined as "all income from whatever source derived;" a more complete definition is found in 26 U.S.C. § 61. Other important definitions like "taxable income" and "adjusted gross income" can also be found in Chapter I of Title 26. These terms are not fixed nor should anyone be confident in understanding their true meaning after a cursory reading because their imputed definitions change with time. The Supreme Court, through case law, demonstrates the changing meaning of taxable income.

Individuals are not the only ones required to file income tax returns. Corporations do as well. While they are subject to may of the same rules as are individual taxpayers, they are also covered by an intricate body of rules addressed to the peculiar problems of corporations.

Quoted from:

http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache:CKTuDatrj3kJ:topics.law.cornell.edu/wex/income_tax+Federal+Income+Tax+law&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

It is even highlighted for you.

It is all right there. Now either pay me my ten thousand dollars or admit defeat.

There is a law, and its right there for you to read.

16th amendment allows them to make the law. The law itself is found in "Title 26 of the United States Code (26 U.S.C.)".

What gives them the right to do this? The necessary and proper clause.

Number one:

I have proven that it is constitutional by definition, using the necessary and proper clause.

Number two:

I proved that Congress has the power to make federal income tax laws using the 16th amendment.

Number three:

I gave you the actual code itself, that being Title 26 US Code.

That is three, two points you did not even ask for.

Ten grand...

Purelyironic
October 29th, 2008, 10:38 PM
Tax protester Sixteenth Amendment arguments are assertions that the imposition of the federal income tax is illegal because the Sixteenth Amendment was never properly ratified,[1] or that the amendment provides no power to tax income. Proper ratification of the Sixteenth Amendment is disputed by tax protesters who argue that the quoted text of the Amendment differed from the text proposed by Congress, or that Ohio was not a State during ratification.[2] Sixteenth Amendment ratification arguments have been rejected in every court case where they have been raised and identified as legally frivolous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_protester_Sixteenth_Amendment_arguments

You shouldn't believe everything that conspiracy movies tell you. If you ever take the time to pause the movies and simply type one of their facts in wiki you will see it is BS.

From freedom to fascism is probably the movie you got your information from, and they use one of the sixteenth amendment arguments included in the link above to try to prove their case.

When I was watching that movie I was laughing because they are making such a big deal over a tax which, if it really were not constitutional, would be made constitutional in 1 day. So what is the point of even wasting time thinking about it?

chosen2nd
October 30th, 2008, 07:45 AM
like i said show me a law you keep talking about. congress having the powerto tax but there is still no law no document stating that a citizen has to pay FEDERAL INCOME TAX i mean theres a bunch of tax documents stating we have to pay like state TAX, property TAX, state income TAX, corporateTAX, luxurary TAX, social security TAX , medicare TAX ect., but nothing on federal income TAX it should be listed as well right. you keep going on about what congress has the power to do but. you fail to show me the law
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and no i did not see that movie

cds69
October 30th, 2008, 07:52 AM
like i said show me a law you keep talking about. congress having the powerto tax but there is still no law no document stating that a citizen has to pay FEDERAL INCOME TAX i mean theres a bunch of tadociuments stating we have to pay like state TAX, property TAX, state income TAX, corporateTAX, luxurary TAX, social security TAX , medicare TAX, but nothing on federal income TAX if should be listed as well right. you keep going on about what congress has the power to do but. you fail to show me the law.

US Code, Title 26 - Internal Revenue Code, Subtitle A - Income Taxes

Now, whyntcha have a nice tall glass of STFU and send me my check, biatch.

chosen2nd
October 30th, 2008, 07:54 AM
and its a code not a law your talking about

cds69
October 30th, 2008, 07:58 AM
A code IS a law.

I think I hear crickets....

Don't you want to know where to send the check?

DevilPup John
October 30th, 2008, 10:25 AM
I give up.

Really. I do. I have presented countless evidence, even supreme court cases you did not ask for... just so you could not call it unconstitutional.

Never in my life have I meet such and incompetent. It is almost as if I am talking to a parrot.

Polly wanna friggin cracker?

I hope that negative rep I gave you went through. You are the first, and probably the only person I will ever give a negative rep to, and by far the only person I have ever been genuinely annoyed with, and disgusted by.

Please, stop breathing. You are using oxygen that people worthy of life could be using.

Sigfried
October 30th, 2008, 10:38 AM
Please, stop breathing. You are using oxygen that people worthy of life could be using.

His arguments are quite poor/non-existent but I'd like to think perhaps he could learn about debate and argument from the site. I think were going a bit far with the name calling based on his posts. Everyone does have to start somewhere.

DevilPup John
October 30th, 2008, 10:42 AM
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity.

He is simply the later.

I have never given anyone a negative rep, and I probably never will again.

But when you are confronted with... a mountain of evidence... and you still claim to be right...

Well there is just not getting around it.

I am not one to coddle people. If someone wants to argue with me, especially on something I have a good deal of knowledge on, and then have the tenacity to still claim to be right even when they have been proven wrong...

Well a friend of mines father has a good saying... If you are going to roll with the big dogs, you better be prepared.

He wanted to keep going, so I kept going. But I am calling it quits, this is just asinine.

cds69
October 30th, 2008, 11:05 AM
Well, the first thing he did wrong was try to lend credibility and legitimacy to his argument through a bet he has no intention of following through on. I've been a gambler all my adult life and I don't book too many losers. Where I'm from you don't spout "I'll bet X amount blah blah yadda yadda..." without the intention of posting up the cash when someone says "you got action". Nothing rubs me the wrong way more than someone trying to high-roll you and then firing air-barrels.

chosen2nd
October 30th, 2008, 03:29 PM
i will say it till im blue in the face show me one law stating that the United States citizen has to pay FEDERAL INCOME TAX

cds69
October 30th, 2008, 03:45 PM
i will say it till im blue in the face show me one law stating that the United States citizen has to pay FEDERAL INCOME TAX

For your claim that "a code isn't a law":


The United States Code (U.S.C.) is a compilation and codification of the general and permanent federal law of the United States.


code   /koʊd/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [kohd] Show IPA Pronunciation
noun, verb, cod⋅ed, cod⋅ing.
4. a systematically arranged collection or compendium of laws, rules, or regulations.

United States Code, TITLE 26, Subtitle A - Income Taxes

Does someone actually have to physically take the book and shove it down your throat to make you acknowledge this?

Dionysus
October 30th, 2008, 03:53 PM
Everyone in the this thread needs to CALM DOWN. NOW.

Wolf Myth
November 1st, 2008, 01:22 PM
Chosen2nd, don't you know it's patriotic to pay your taxes? Who's gonna pay for fighting all them terrorists in Iraq if no one gives the government money? I say if you don't think it's a law to pay taxes, then don't pay them. Take the feds to court. See what happens. I agree with the constitutional law thing, by the way. And I actually feel it's important we pay taxes for the betterment of the country as a whole.

onalandline
November 1st, 2008, 01:59 PM
Chosen2nd, don't you know it's patriotic to pay your taxes? Who's gonna pay for fighting all them terrorists in Iraq if no one gives the government money? I say if you don't think it's a law to pay taxes, then don't pay them. Take the feds to court. See what happens. I agree with the constitutional law thing, by the way. And I actually feel it's important we pay taxes for the betterment of the country as a whole.

Didn't Biden say it was patriotic to pay taxes?

Anyway, we do need to pay taxes to keep the goverment going.

Obama, if elected, will certainly bring out the patriotism in us all!

Wolf Myth
November 2nd, 2008, 08:26 AM
Obama, if elected, will certainly bring out the patriotism in us all!


LOL. Seriously, though, do you really think he's gonna raise taxes on the middle class? Or perhaps get the money out of us some other way?