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KevinBrowning
October 15th, 2004, 12:48 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20041015/ap_on_re_us/halloween_on_the_sabbath

This is an interesting article. I also find it somewhat offensive for an entirely commercialized pagan holiday to fall on Sunday. I think Halloween should be changed to the last Saturday of the month, to avoid this sort of dispute.

Apokalupsis
October 15th, 2004, 01:02 PM
This doesn't make any sense to me really. I understand the concept of "keeping the Sabbath holy". But this type of thinking:



"It's a day for the good Lord, not for the devil," said Barbara Braswell, who plans to send her 4-year-old granddaughter Maliyah out trick-or-treating in a princess costume on Saturday instead.
seems a bit hypocritical to me. It's saying: "I'm very religious, I'm a God-fearing woman who loves and respects God so much, that I won't allow my granddaughter to celebrate the devil on the same day we worship God...instead, my granddaughter will have to celebrate the devil the day before."

Halloween is always controversial to theists...some see it as something blashphemous, others see it as merely a harmless holiday (like I do). But for those who see it as an actual "celebration of the devil", then there should be some backbone or at least consistency on the matter, and it should be said "Halloween is wrong, it is a celebration of the devil, I'm a worshipper of God, my child will not participate in Halloween regardless of the day it falls on." I have more respect for people who believe that way, as opposed to those who merely take issue with it because it falls on Sunday. To me, that's absurd.


"You just don't do it on Sunday," said Sandra Hulsey of Greenville, Ga. "That's Christ's day. You go to church on Sunday, you don't go out and celebrate the devil. That'll confuse a child."
Then DON'T celebrate the "devil's day" at all, period! :rolleyes:

Galendir
October 15th, 2004, 01:29 PM
I also find it somewhat offensive for an entirely commercialized pagan holiday to fall on Sunday. I think Halloween should be changed to the last Saturday of the month, to avoid this sort of dispute.Some Christians are so funny.
Jews, Muslims and Sabbatarians must really laugh at the ignorance of 'Bible believing' Christians who think Sunday is the Sabbath.

Apokalupsis
October 15th, 2004, 02:45 PM
The issue is a minor confusion on both those Christians, but also on your part here IMO...

Christians don't worship or praise God on the Sabbath, regardless of which day of the week the Sabbath is. While it is true that the Sabbath = Saturday, it is also true that for Christians, Sunday is the Lord's Day. The Christians here are objecting to Halloween which falls on the day that they worship God, it is a "holy day" (not the "name of the day"). Obviously, the reason for the objection is because "celebration of deh debil" should not fall on the same day as "celebration of God". The only error committed, was calling this specific day, the Sabbath. The practice and belief of the Lord's Day being Sunday as opposed to Saturday or any other, is indeed scriptural.

Passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lordís day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. It has long been established (from 1st cent AD) that Sunday is the day of the week that is to be considered the day to worship and praise God.

So I sincerely doubt that any Jew, Muslim, or Sabbatarian would really laugh at Christians referring to the Lord's Day as the Sabbath. Most Christians know the difference, some merely make a simple mistake. I would wager the most that one would recieve from a J, M, or S, is a slight chuckle in mistake of names of the days, nothing more.

PallidaMors
October 15th, 2004, 04:26 PM
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20041015/ap_on_re_us/halloween_on_the_sabbath

This is an interesting article. I also find it somewhat offensive for an entirely commercialized pagan holiday to fall on Sunday. I think Halloween should be changed to the last Saturday of the month, to avoid this sort of dispute.

Interesting. so non-christians, and everyone else who don't see any problems with sunday should change thier plans simply because some christians have a problem with it? THAT is extremely offensive to me and I would fight that in my community with every resource available to me (if indeed i had a community...that wasnt being shot at already...lol)

What in the world happened to "If you don't like it, don't do it, watch it, or listen to it"?

Also as much as Apok mentioned his point I dont think it is driven home enough....Some Christians think that "the day for worshipping the devil should not fall on the day for worshipping the lord" .......that almost knocked me out of my chair...
Holy Contradictions, Batman!

PallidaMors
October 15th, 2004, 04:46 PM
Also, the mere fact that is article was ever written, or that some Christians think this is entirely logical speaks volumes about the arrogance and imposition of Christianity.

(Kev/Apok/Other Christians-that is not meant to be an ad hom against you...however much I may hate Christianity, that does not mean I can't be friends with Christians! |)| )

emtee10
October 15th, 2004, 06:08 PM
This is an interesting article. I also find it somewhat offensive for an entirely commercialized pagan holiday to fall on Sunday. I think Halloween should be changed to the last Saturday of the month, to avoid this sort of dispute.

I have to agree with Apok and PadillaMors on this one. It seems silly to force people not to celebrate whatever holiday they want (in a religious or non-religious manner) just because it happens to occur on the same day as a holiday of another religion. It just doesn't make sense to me.


Halloween is always controversial to theists...some see it as something blashphemous, others see it as merely a harmless holiday (like I do).

Hehe... I know EXACTLY what you mean. I have a very religious Jewish friend who finds it odd that fellow Jews would participate in holidays which are not Jewish. He even found it odd that I celebrated Thanksgiving (which occurs in October in Canada). I've tried on several occasions to explain that these holidays can be celebrated in entirely non-religious ways, but he fails to understand. So anyway, I know where you're coming from with this.


Also, the mere fact that is article was ever written, or that some Christians think this is entirely logical speaks volumes about the arrogance and imposition of Christianity.

'Fraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. Firstly, I have many Christian friends, and they have never tried to impose anything on me. Secondly, the article could just as easily have been written by someone of another religion. Here (http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/971031/shabbat.shtml) is an article from a religious Jewish perspective which shows a conflict between the Jewish Shabbat (Saturday) and Halloween. The author stops short of saying that Halloween should be rescheduled, however, but I doubt that is simply because he is not a Christian. No religion is more likely to try to impose itself than any other, really. There are extremists and moderates on all sides.

Meng Bomin
October 15th, 2004, 06:10 PM
While it is true that the Sabbath = Sunday, it is also true that for Christians, Sunday is the Lord's Day. Typo? The Sabbath = Saturday.

PallidaMors
October 15th, 2004, 06:16 PM
'Fraid I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. Firstly, I have many Christian friends, and they have never tried to impose anything on me. Secondly, the article could just as easily have been written by someone of another religion. Here (http://www.jewishaz.com/jewishnews/971031/shabbat.shtml) is an article from a religious Jewish perspective which shows a conflict between the Jewish Shabbat (Saturday) and Halloween. The author stops short of saying that Halloween should be rescheduled, however, but I doubt that is simply because he is not a Christian. No religion is more likely to try to impose itself than any other, really. There are extremists and moderates on all sides.

So what you are saying is just because I hear it more from Christians could just mean there are more Christians to hear it from...
I see what you are saying and admit that I was a little hot under the collar when I wrote it. Bad logic...sorry!

mrs_innocent
October 15th, 2004, 06:16 PM
I'm in total agreement with Apok and PM. Change thousands of years (at least according to some sources) of tradition, simply because we've decided to have a major problem with it. Makes lots of sense to me...:rolleyes:

As with nearly everything else in life, if you don't like it, don't do it. (And don't be a hypocrite about it either! :p )

Apokalupsis
October 15th, 2004, 06:30 PM
Also, the mere fact that is article was ever written, or that some Christians think this is entirely logical speaks volumes about the arrogance and imposition of Christianity.
Fallacy of biased sample.

Apok is a Christian. Apok refuted the logic used by other Christians who wished to move Halloween to Saturday (which ironically, is the actual Sabbath).

Apokalupsis
October 15th, 2004, 06:31 PM
Typo? The Sabbath = Saturday.
Yes, type. Fixed.

PallidaMors
October 15th, 2004, 06:39 PM
Fallacy of biased sample.

Apok is a Christian. Apok refuted the logic used by other Christians who wished to move Halloween to Saturday (which ironically, is the actual Sabbath).
Agreed and apologies heartily issued forth...

Fyshhed
October 15th, 2004, 06:56 PM
Might I just inject my 2 cents....


L O L


Boo. Freaking. Hoo. All Hallows' Eve is part of American history. Get over it and hand out your candy ;)

Galendir
October 16th, 2004, 01:56 PM
The issue is a minor confusion on both those Christians, but also on your part here IMO...It is more than a minor confusion on the part of those Christians. And I have not demonstrated any confusion whatsoever. To the contrary, I am very familiar with many of the theological issues and arguments regarding the Sabbath day vs the 'Lord's day'. They are not at all the same, and it is only the most ignorant of Christians that don't know this.


Christians don't worship or praise God on the Sabbath, regardless of which day of the week the Sabbath is. While it is true that the Sabbath = Saturday, it is also true that for Christians, Sunday is the Lord's Day.Except for those Christians who are Sabbatarians. The which there have been since Christianity's inception.


The Christians here are objecting to Halloween which falls on the day that they worship God, it is a "holy day" (not the "name of the day"). Obviously, the reason for the objection is because "celebration of deh debil" should not fall on the same day as "celebration of God".Yes, I fully understand this.


The only error committed, was calling this specific day, the Sabbath.This is not a minor error. It reveals a gross ignorance of what the Sabbath is, its significance, the vast fundamental difference between its theological relevance and that of the 'Lord's day', and the theological and historical context in which Sunday became the predominant day of worship for Christians.


The practice and belief of the Lord's Day being Sunday as opposed to Saturday or any other, is indeed scriptural.

Passages of Scripture such as Acts 20:7, 1 Corinthians 16:2, Colossians 2:16-17, and Revelation 1:10 indicate that, even during New Testament times, the Sabbath is no longer binding and that Christians are to worship on the Lordís day, Sunday, instead.

The early Church Fathers compared the observance of the Sabbath to the observance of the rite of circumcision, and from that they demonstrated that if the apostles abolished circumcision (Gal. 5:1-6), so also the observance of the Sabbath must have been abolished. It has long been established (from 1st cent AD) that Sunday is the day of the week that is to be considered the day to worship and praise God.You're telling me nothing new, and there is a great deal more to the issue than this.


So I sincerely doubt that any Jew, Muslim, or Sabbatarian would really laugh at Christians referring to the Lord's Day as the Sabbath.Perhaps not out loud, but they must think them extremely ignorant indeed.


Most Christians know the difference, some merely make a simple mistake.It is about as 'simple' a mistake as confusing Jesus with Moses.


I would wager the most that one would recieve from a J, M, or S, is a slight chuckle in mistake of names of the days, nothing more.I'll take that wager.

HermanPetri
October 16th, 2004, 02:16 PM
There are some 52 Sundays in a year. There is one Halloween. This Halloween occurs on a different day of the week every year. There is a one in seven chance that it will fall on a Sunday. It will happen on average only once every seven years. This means that over that period of seven years Christians will get 364 Holy Sundays and only ONE Halloween will conflict with any of those.

Would it be relatively painless to reschedule just these few times? Probably. Would it be justified? I personally don't think so. I think it's a fair trade considering that most Christians in this country have adopted the pagan custom of bringing evergreens into their home each year to celebrate their Christmas.

Meng Bomin
October 16th, 2004, 02:28 PM
What's funny is that Halloween isn't for worshipping the devil. It has it's origens in pagan harvest festivals. It was adopted by the Christian (Catholic) Church in a similar way that Christmas was chosen to take place during an existing Roman holiday:
History Channel (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/holiday_origins1.html)
Neopagan.net (http://www.neopagan.net/Halloween-Origins.html)

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 08:23 AM
It is more than a minor confusion on the part of those Christians. And I have not demonstrated any confusion whatsoever. To the contrary, I am very familiar with many of the theological issues and arguments regarding the Sabbath day vs the 'Lord's day'. They are not at all the same, and it is only the most ignorant of Christians that don't know this.
It appears that I read a little more into the article, BASED upon your erroneous claims. I should have paid attention to what was said by those silly little Christians, as opposed falling for your straw man fallacy. ;)

No Christians in the article, refer to Sunday as the Sabbath. The Sabbath is mentioned 1 time, by the author of the article. Now, can you show that the author is a represntative of Christianity? If not, then it's a straw man.

I rarely ever hear of Sunday being the Sabbath by Christians. The last time I heard it confused, was when I was younger, when it was said by other young Christians.



This is not a minor error. It reveals a gross ignorance of what the Sabbath is, its significance, the vast fundamental difference between its theological relevance and that of the 'Lord's day', and the theological and historical context in which Sunday became the predominant day of worship for Christians.
1) No Christians claimed such a thing.
2) The only Christians I'm aware of being confused are children.
3) To make such a silly argument based on 1 and 2, is really, beneath you Gal.


Perhaps not out loud, but they must think them extremely ignorant indeed.
Wonderful examples of other faiths then. Not only do they believe that which is generally not true (that most Christians believe the Sabbath is on Sunday), but they base such a belief due to a few children? Really Gal.



It is about as 'simple' a mistake as confusing Jesus with Moses.
Wrong again. In Christianity, both Moses and Jesus play significant parts. The Sabbath, doesn't.



I'll take that wager.
Great! I look forward to your study that shows a great number of J, M or S's laugh out loud at a few children! ;)

Also, it is interesting, that your dominant objection here, isn't about Christians wanting the celebration of Halloween changed from Sunday to Saturday, but that you thought some Christians were confused as to what the Sabbath was. What do you think the article is about Gal?

You responded to Kev who said:


I also find it somewhat offensive for an entirely commercialized pagan holiday to fall on Sunday. I think Halloween should be changed to the last Saturday of the month, to avoid this sort of dispute.
then you...


Some Christians are so funny.
Jews, Muslims and Sabbatarians must really laugh at the ignorance of 'Bible believing' Christians who think Sunday is the Sabbath.
....now WHERE in the heck do you get that Kev or any other Christian was confused about Sunday being the Sabbath? The ISSUE here, is that Sunday is the day that Christians recognize as the Lord's day. It is the CORRECT day of worship for Christians. The issue is not "Christians think Sunday is the Sabbath" or "Christians ought to worship on Saturday".

Meng Bomin
October 18th, 2004, 09:25 AM
2) The only Christians I'm aware of being confused are children.The idea that Sunday is the Sabbath is more widespread than you might think. There are several adults I know that think Sunday is the Sabbath


Wrong again. In Christianity, both Moses and Jesus play significant parts. The Sabbath, doesn't.
It's significant enough to call for a commandment from God.

Great! I look forward to your study that shows a great number of J, M or S's laugh out loud at a few children! ;)Again, it is more than just a few children
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/sunday.htm


Some Christians think that by worshipping on a Sunday they are keeping some sort of New Testament sabbath
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sabbath


Many Protestants (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Protestantism) have historically regarded Lord's Day, Sabbath, and Sunday as synonymous terms for the Christian day of worship (except in those languages in which the name of the seventh day is literally equivalent to "Sabbath" -- such as Spanish, Italian, Russian, Modern Greek, and of course Hebrew).

Zhavric
October 18th, 2004, 09:26 AM
What's funny is that Halloween isn't for worshipping the devil. It has it's origens in pagan harvest festivals. It was adopted by the Christian (Catholic) Church in a similar way that Christmas was chosen to take place during an existing Roman holiday:
History Channel (http://www.historychannel.com/exhibits/halloween/holiday_origins1.html)
Neopagan.net (http://www.neopagan.net/Halloween-Origins.html)

Heh. I'd like to see what they have to say about Easter.

"We eat these... chocolate eggs to remember when Jesus... and these rabbits are for... aw, CENSORED it: I have NO CLUE."

Can we say "pagan fertility / spring" holiday? I knew we could.

Zhavric
October 18th, 2004, 09:27 AM
This is an interesting article. I also find it somewhat offensive for an entirely commercialized pagan holiday to fall on Sunday. I think Halloween should be changed to the last Saturday of the month, to avoid this sort of dispute.

God made us. God made the calander. Who are you to question god's will! :mad: :p :rolleyes:

Fyshhed
October 18th, 2004, 09:49 AM
I think ultimately any person (Christian in this case) who truly believes that Halloween is a celebration of the Devil should be dragged out into the street and educated to death.

FACT: Halloween is a holiday
FACT: Halloween is a holiday celebrated by children
FACT: Halloween is a holiday celebrated by children to get candy
FACT: Halloween is a holiday celebrated by children to get candy by dressing up in costumes
FACT: Halloween is a holiday celebrated by children to get candy by dressing up in costumes and saying "Trick or Treat" to neighbors.


NOW PLEASE....

Point out where in that step-by-step approach there is specific or even INDIRECT devil-worship, where there is hostile intent, or malicious thoughts.

Do kids even know what "Trick or Treat" means anymore?


...
Do adults?

So in the end, it's only the ill-informed who find threat and danger in a night of fantasy dress-up and candy hunting. Let kids be kids and try not to crucify them if they come up to your doorstep in a little red suit with a pitch fork. "They know not what they do." ;)

Oh, and one more thing. *slaps all those fundies silly*
Ok, I feel better :)

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 09:49 AM
The idea that Sunday is the Sabbath is more widespread than you might think. There are several adults I know that think Sunday is the Sabbath
That may be possible.. But 1, it hasn't been shown, and 2, it has NOTHING to do with this article. It was fallacious reasoning that caused it to be introduced to this discussion.



It's significant enough to call for a commandment from God.
Irrelevant.



Again, it is more than just a few children
http://www.christadelphia.org/pamphlet/sunday.htm
Taking doctrine from what the majority of Christian faiths and denominations consider to be cultic, doesn't help your argument much (yes, Christadelphianism is a cult according to the overwhelming majority of Christians and leading scholars/church leaders - example: They don't believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, and believe that Jesus was sinful in nature - 2 beliefs that oppose historical, traditional and established Christian doctrine). May as well make a claim like "Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael (the archangel), there are a lot of JW's, and they consider themselves Christian, so then the idea of Jesus being Michael is pretty widespread. Do you believe that this teaching is "widespread" in Christianity?



Some Christians think that by worshipping on a Sunday they are keeping some sort of New Testament sabbath
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Sabbath
Hmmm....was the original fallacious argument made in reference to the Sabbath, concerning itself with the Sabbath as generally known (by Jews, Muslims and Sabbatarians)? Or was it a different form, a "New Testament Sabbath"? And if we are now talking about this new meaning of Sabbath...why would Jews, Muslims and Sabbatarians laugh about this?

Galendir
October 18th, 2004, 11:21 AM
It appears that I read a little more into the article, BASED upon your erroneous claims.False accusation. I made no erroneous claims.


I should have paid attention to what was said by those silly little Christians, as opposed falling for your straw man fallacy. ;)Yes. You really should pay more attention to what is being said before falsely accusing others of commiting a fallacy when it is in fact you who are doing so.
Go back and read post 2. It's not that long. Read the quote to which I responded with my opening remark. The one which you foolishly concluded indicated confusion on my part as to what the difference is between the Sabbath and the Lord's Day.
The title of this thread is not "Holloween on the Lord's Day." I did not quote the article in my response; I quoted Kevin. He was the one who started the thread. He was the one who titled it. I trust you are not going to suggest that Kevin is not a Christian.


No Christians in the article, refer to Sunday as the Sabbath.I did not imply that they did.

The Sabbath is mentioned 1 time, by the author of the article.Yes, no Christian in the article is quoted as referring to Sunday as the Sabbath, yet Kevin espouses their position and chooses the wording for the title of this thread. He is in tacit conformity with the author in regard to their confusion in the matter.


Now, can you show that the author is a represntative of Christianity?I have no need to as I have based nothing on such a presumption.
Can you show that Kevin is not a Christian?


If not, then it's a straw man.It is a straw man to characterize my observation as being dependent upon the articles's author being a Christian rather than this thread's author being one.
This is becoming a running gag with you -- creating a straw man version of your opponent's argument so that you can accuse them of committing that very fallacy.


I rarely ever hear of Sunday being the Sabbath by Christians. The last time I heard it confused, was when I was younger, when it was said by other young Christians.Read the title of this thread.
Read the thread starter's opening comments.
Look at the thread starter's Religious Affilitation icon.
Remove foot from mouth.


1) No Christians claimed such a thing.I didn't say Christians claimed such a thing (whatever that is supposed to mean). I said that Christians who erroneously refer to Sunday as Sabbath reveal a gross ignorance.


2) The only Christians I'm aware of being confused are children.Apparently, in Apok's judgment, Kevin is merely a child.

3) To make such a silly argument based on 1 and 2, is really, beneath you Gal.It's good then that I have done no such thing.
It seems that grossly mischaracterizing others' positions and arguments is not beneath you, Apok.


Wonderful examples of other faiths then. Not only do they believe that which is generally not true (that most Christians believe the Sabbath is on Sunday), but they base such a belief due to a few children? Really Gal.Really, Apok. Your staw man bashing is becoming ridiculous. I have not remotely suggested that the majority of Christians make this error, or that Jews, Muslims or Sabbatarians hold this misconception. Nor have I based any criticism on the misunderstandings of children. It is you who assume that no such adult Christians exist whatsoever. Wishful thinking. It is only to those (few) adult Christians to which my comment referred.


Wrong again. In Christianity, both Moses and Jesus play significant parts. The Sabbath, doesn't.Beside the point, and not entirely true. One can hardly be knowledgable about the significance of the Old Testament and how it relates to the New, and all that that entails, and yet remain ignorant of the importance of the Sabbath. The analogy between Moses & Sabbath : Jesus & Lord's Day is apt. Law:Grace, Works:Faith, Old Covenant:New Covenant, Moses:Jesus, Sabbath:Lord's Day.


Great! I look forward to your study that shows a great number of J, M or S's laugh out loud at a few children! ;)No response necessary. Just reposting your comments so others can see how foolish you are being.


Also, it is interesting, that your dominant objection here, isn't about Christians wanting the celebration of Halloween changed from Sunday to Saturday, but that you thought some Christians were confused as to what the Sabbath was. What do you think the article is about Gal?

You responded to Kev who said:

then you...

....now WHERE in the heck do you get that Kev or any other Christian was confused about Sunday being the Sabbath? The ISSUE here, is that Sunday is the day that Christians recognize as the Lord's day. It is the CORRECT day of worship for Christians. The issue is not "Christians think Sunday is the Sabbath" or "Christians ought to worship on Saturday".How do you manage to post in this thread, and completely miss the title of it?
Do you think the title is completely irrelevant?
Do you think Kevin just pulled it out of his arse?
Do you think it speaks not at all to the thread author's understanding of the issue?
If Kevin were not confused, why would he title the thread so, make the comments he did, and yet say nothing about the difference between the Lord's Day and the Sabbath?

Meng Bomin
October 18th, 2004, 12:22 PM
It's significant enough to call for a commandment from God.

Irrelevant.
How so? If God thought that it was important then, then why doesn't he think so now. Has God changed?

Taking doctrine from what the majority of Christian faiths and denominations consider to be cultic, doesn't help your argument much (yes, Christadelphianism is a cult according to the overwhelming majority of Christians and leading scholars/church leaders - example: They don't believe that Jesus is God in the flesh, and believe that Jesus was sinful in nature - 2 beliefs that oppose historical, traditional and established Christian doctrine). May as well make a claim like "Jehovah's Witnesses believe that Jesus is Michael (the archangel), there are a lot of JW's, and they consider themselves Christian, so then the idea of Jesus being Michael is pretty widespread. Do you believe that this teaching is "widespread" in Christianity?
Actually, they align with you on the issue of the Sabbath vs. the Lord's Day. If you had read the link, you would know that. I was merely pointing out that more Chritians than just children believe that Sunday is the Sabbath.

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 01:18 PM
False accusation. I made no erroneous claims.
Sure ya did...see below...


Yes. You really should pay more attention to what is being said before falsely accusing others of commiting a fallacy when it is in fact you who are doing so.
Really? WHAT fallacy have I committed? btw, you HAVE committed a fallacy, see below...



Go back and read post 2. It's not that long. Read the quote to which I responded with my opening remark.
....post #2 is by APOK. There is no Sabbath mentioned. Post 3# is where you make the mistake by quoting Kev, who never once claims that the Sabbath is on Sunday (see below). Also, you may want to read a post's entirty prior to responding. I already quoted your opening remark at the end of my post above. This has already been addressed.



The title of this thread is not "Holloween on the Lord's Day."

Correct! It is the title of the URL of the page of the article. The TITLE of the page on Yahoo, is "halloween_on_the_sabbath". Also, the summary of the article fits the title. It was a mistake on the part of the author, NOT any Christian here.

You are now objecting, because Kev linked an article, and used the title of the page of the article which also fits the summary (or so thought the AUTHOR of the article)? C'mon now.

Oh, btw, straw man again. Kev never claimed any such thing, yet you claim he did. Kev merely used the website's page name for the title of this thread...word...for...word.



I did not quote the article in my response; I quoted Kevin.
You quoted Kevin giving the SAME response as the Christians in the article...not a single Christian there, nor did Kev claim that Sunday was the Sabbath. You argue that he did, and it's viewable for ALL to see, that he never did. Thus, straw man.


He was the one who started the thread. He was the one who titled it. I trust you are not going to suggest that Kevin is not a Christian.
Correct, he did start it. Correct, he copied the title of the web page from Yahoo. Since Yahoo has it on their news site, Kev thought it was necessary to throw it up for discussion. He COPIED the name. The error of the name, lays with Yahoo and/or the author of the article who BELIEVED that Sunday was the Sabbath. KNOWING that the REAL issue here is not the ERROR of Yahoo or the author, but rather the controversy of which day of the week Halloween should fall on, as well as the importance of our wishes to stay ON TOPIC to what is being discussed, Kev didn't need to throw in a disclaimer of "btw, I know that contrary to what both Yahoo and the author of the article apparently claim, the Sabbath isn't on Sunday. That's absurd.

No, I will not claim that Kevin is not a Christian. Why would I do that??



I did not imply that they did.
Wait...ok, so now no Christian claim it. And all can see that Kevin didn't claim it (regardless of your change of position above), yet you have drawn the conclusion, that "some Christians are funny because they believe the Sabbath is on Sunday"? NO ONE has claimed any such thing. Yet you attempt to REFUTE Kevin's objection to having Halloween on Sunday (you even quote him directly for cryin' out loud), with "Some Christians believe the Sabbath is on Sunday. They are wrong." What? This is a straw man, despite your misunderstanding of the nature of the fallacy. You are refuting a non-existent argument of the opposition. Of course, now you will probably say that you didn't mean that anyone at all claimed anything...ok...but now your objection was completley off-topic...and you probably ought not to RESPOND or quote another debater before making off-topic, irrelevant remarks. Also, keep in mind, that we DELETE off-topic posts from time to time.



Yes, no Christian in the article is quoted as referring to Sunday as the Sabbath, yet Kevin espouses their position and chooses the wording for the title of this thread. He is in tacit conformity with the author in regard to their confusion in the matter.
WRONG. Kevin never claimed any such thing. He COPIED the title from the website. Geesh Gal. This really isn't that complicated. Furthermore, Kev never argues this point. He argues the same position as the Christians in the article...they oppose having Halloween on Sunday. No one claims (other than the author) that Sunday is the Sabbath which is the reason for not having the holiday on Sunday...they argue (like Kev), that because it is on Sunday (the Lord's Day), it not ought to be on this day, and should be on Saturday instead.



I have no need to as I have based nothing on such a presumption.
The author and Yahoo, are the only ones claiming that Sunday = Sabbath. So yes, you do have a need to show that they are Christians who believe it is indeed, the Sabbath, else your initial argument that they do, is shown to be w/o merit.



Can you show that Kevin is not a Christian?
Nope. Kev being Christian, Jew, Muslim, atheist, is irrelevant. Kev never made any such claim about the Sabbath. I'm STILL waiting for you to show us where he did. I think we'd all like to see that one.



It is a straw man to characterize my observation as being dependent upon the articles's author being a Christian rather than this thread's author being one.
Wrong again. If it is true, that according to you, some Christians are funny for thinking that the Sabbath = Sunday, the only reason you can make such a claim of any relevance, is for the person MAKING the claim that Sabbath = Sunday, to be Christian. Since Yahoo and the author are making the claim, they must be Christian (in order for your objection to hold any weight). Kev didn't make any claim (see above). So...again...what evidence do you have that shows that Yahoo or the author are Christian representatives?



This is becoming a running gag with you -- creating a straw man version of your opponent's argument so that you can accuse them of committing that very fallacy.
I don't think you understand the nature of a "gag", nor the nature of fallacies. You definitely have a misunderstanding of the nature of the "straw man".



Read the title of this thread.
Halloween on the Sabbath. It's the same as the both the webpage TITLE: halloween_on_the_sabbath and could easily be argued is the summary meant by the author who erroneously makes this summary here:



Some towns around the country are decreeing that Halloween be celebrated on Saturday to avoid complaints from those who might be offended by the sight of demons and witches ringing their doorbell on the Sabbath.
The author here sees a controversy...he makes the error of calling Sunday, the Sabbath. Yet, you say that Christians make this error. So...the author must be Christian if a Christian is making the error. So what evidence do you have that she is? If you have none, then your argument falls flat. You have specifically stated Kev has done this, despite not being able to support it. When you attempt to refute an argument that was never given by another, you have committed the straw man fallacy. This is very, very basic stuff here Gal. Since Kev DIDN'T claim any such thing (and ONLY that of "Halloween should not be on Sunday, clearly not your claim), and you want to refute something that does not exist, it is indeed, a straw man.



Read the thread starter's opening comments.
...

This is an interesting article. I also find it somewhat offensive for an entirely commercialized pagan holiday to fall on Sunday. I think Halloween should be changed to the last Saturday of the month, to avoid this sort of dispute.
...yeah...he is saying the exact same thing as the Christians in the article. Halloween on Sunday = no-no. No Christian here or in the article, claims anything different, nor adds to it (that Sunday = Sabbath).



Look at the thread starter's Religious Affilitation icon.
Christian.



Remove foot from mouth.
What size do you wear? And I think you are capable of doing that yourself. Just open wide and tug really, really hard. ;)



I didn't say Christians claimed such a thing (whatever that is supposed to mean). I said that Christians who erroneously refer to Sunday as Sabbath reveal a gross ignorance.
If a Christian believes that Sunday is the Sabbath, it is an indirect claim that it is, the Sabbath. One doesn't have to create a syllogism to make a claim Gal.



Apparently, in Apok's judgment, Kevin is merely a child.
Yet ANOTHER Straw man. I've never claimed such a thing.



It seems that grossly mischaracterizing others' positions and arguments is not beneath you, Apok.
No support for this whatsoever. See above. You making the mistake, that since Kev used a webpage's title and article summary, as a presented claim, and being called on it, doesn't equate to me mischaracterizing other's positions. I find that highly hypocritical of a claim as well. Here, you say that Kev must be claiming it, when he does NO such thing. Really Gal.



Really, Apok. Your staw man bashing is becoming ridiculous.
You can't bash "straw men".


It is only to those (few) adult Christians to which my comment referred.
Which "few"? We are still waiting for support.



Beside the point, and not entirely true. One can hardly be knowledgable about the significance of the Old Testament and how it relates to the New, and all that that entails, and yet remain ignorant of the importance of the Sabbath. The analogy between Moses & Sabbath : Jesus & Lord's Day is apt. Law:Grace, Works:Faith, Old Covenant:New Covenant, Moses:Jesus, Sabbath:Lord's Day.
Not beside the point, and it is true. OT and NT history and Law, are not nearly as important to most people of Christian faith. You misunderstand the doctrines of Christianity, as well as its practices.



No response necessary. Just reposting your comments so others can see how foolish you are being.
Very well, so you don't believe Christian children make J, M, or S's laugh with their misunderstanding...but you do believe that some adult Christians do. So we will await for your study on adult Christians soliciting said response from J, M, and S's. ;)



How do you manage to post in this thread, and completely miss the title of it?
How do you manage to post in this thread, read the article, and completely miss the webpage's name that Kev USED for this thread's name? How do you miss the summary of the author's report? How do you miss the POINT of the article and confuse it with a non-issue?

I didn't miss the title. I noticed that it was identical to Yahoo's. How did you miss that Gal?



Do you think the title is completely irrelevant?
The title of the thread = title of the webpage. Kev used that title for this one. It is also fitting considering the author's misunderstanding of the Sabbath and Christian doctrine.



Do you think Kevin just pulled it out of his arse?
No...isn't it obvious? He got it from Yahoo.



Do you think it speaks not at all to the thread author's understanding of the issue?
Well of course it does. But simply because the author thinks that Sunday = Sabbath, doesn't 1) mean that she is Christian, and 2) that Kevin agrees.

You missed the point of Kev's and every other Christian who was interviewed in the article:

Halloween on Sunday = bad.

Not a single Christian claimed 1) Halloween on Sabbath = bad,
nor did anyone claim:
2) Sunday = Sabbath.

Please reread the article.



If Kevin were not confused, why would he title the thread so, make the comments he did, and yet say nothing about the difference between the Lord's Day and the Sabbath?

He wasn't confused, nor have you shown him to be..
The title of this thread = title of the webpage on Yahoo & the article summary written by the author who made the mistake
His comments are identical to the comments made by the other Christians interviewed (I thought you read the article - may wanna do that prior to the attempt at refuting it).
See issue re: disclaimer above. He assumed that post people here would know the obvious issue being discussed in the article.

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 01:22 PM
How so? If God thought that it was important then, then why doesn't he think so now. Has God changed?
That OT law and tradition has been changed, isn't what is important. What IS important, are the current changes that are practiced. For example, dietary and sacrifical law that once were important, are no longer important today in the doctrine and practice of the Christian faith. It is not necessary for a Christian to be fully aware of that which does not apply. Many are aware, but it serves no practical value, we do nothing with that information other than learn about Christian history and tradition.



Actually, they align with you on the issue of the Sabbath vs. the Lord's Day. If you had read the link, you would know that. I was merely pointing out that more Chritians than just children believe that Sunday is the Sabbath.
Didn't need to read the link, saw the religion, knew enough. Also, if they too believe that the Sabbath has been replaced with the Lord's Day, then it was never a supportive link FOR your argument, but against it.

mrs_innocent
October 18th, 2004, 01:40 PM
Correct! It is the title of the URL of the page of the article. The TITLE of the page on Yahoo, is "halloween_on_the_sabbath". Also, the summary of the article fits the title. It was a mistake on the part of the author, NOT any Christian here.

I'm going to kick myself for interjecting here...

But, actually, Apok, unless Yahoo has changed the article since, you're wrong. The same article was posted on CNN (which is where I initially read it) and it was the same there...

The title of the article on Yahoo is:

Top Stories - AP
Sunday Halloween Irks Some in Bible Belt

The word "Sabbath" is mentioned only once in the article, by the author, referring to the his suspected reaction from the public of Trick-or-Treaters on Sunday. Therefore, leading me to believe that the thread starter (Kev) is actually the one using the term.

KevinBrowning
October 18th, 2004, 01:43 PM
I will admit that while I knew the Jewish Shabbat is Saturday, I have heard the term "Sabbath" used for Sunday all through my life. I know there are Christians who retain Saturday as the holy day of the week, rather than Sunday. Could it be possible that "Sabbath", in the vernacular, means "Sunday", while technically it refers to Saturday, with Sunday being the Lord's Day, or the day of rest?

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 01:46 PM
I'm going to kick myself for interjecting here...

But, actually, Apok, unless Yahoo has changed the article since, you're wrong. The same article was posted on CNN (which is where I initially read it) and it was the same there...

The title of the article on Yahoo is:


The word "Sabbath" is mentioned only once in the article, by the author, referring to the his suspected reaction from the public of Trick-or-Treaters on Sunday. Therefore, leading me to believe that the thread starter (Kev) is actually the one using the term.
I didn't say the title of the ARTICLE....I said the title of the WEBPAGE.

Each webpage has a name. Go here: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=13&u=/ap/20041015/ap_on_re_us/halloween_on_the_sabbath

The name is the last part: halloween_on_the_sabbath

On CNN's site, they do the same thing:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/10/15/halloween.sabbath.ap/index.html

Only they name the page: halloween.sabbath.ap

KevinBrowning
October 18th, 2004, 01:48 PM
Let me also point out that while the subject of whether Saturday or Sunday is "the Sabbath" is an interesting one, it's not the point of this thread. I was asking if we should move Halloween to Saturday on those times that it falls on what most Americans consider the Holy Day of the week.

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 01:51 PM
It's a disappointment that you were actually forced to spell that out for people Kev...but understandable. Now perhaps some people will have a clearer picture of the issue that should be discussed.

Fyshhed
October 18th, 2004, 02:47 PM
It's a disappointment that you were actually forced to spell that out for people Kev...but understandable. Now perhaps some people will have a clearer picture of the issue that should be discussed.
Or the ultimate conclusion: That it's about fun and candy and not the devil.

KevinBrowning
October 18th, 2004, 02:57 PM
Or the ultimate conclusion: That it's about fun and candy and not the devil.

That's what it's about now. The point is that it originates from a day emphasizing ghosts and witches and devils and the like, and many Christians don't like that emphasis on the Holy Day. So the question becomes, what is the basis for a non-government holiday, except that a majority of the people want it? Further, what can be done if it falls out favor on a certain day? Does it NEED to be on the 31st every year? My answer is, if you're a Christian and you don't want it on Sunday, then just turn your porch light off, and if they keep ringing the door anyway, smack them with a large hardcover Bible. Just kidding.

mrs_innocent
October 18th, 2004, 03:16 PM
Does it NEED to be on the 31st every year?

Well, according to the origins of Halloween (which people always seem to prefer to ignore), yes.

tinkerbell
October 18th, 2004, 04:02 PM
SWEET JESUS!!!
The Sabbath is on Sunday for most protestant Christians, Sat for Seventh Day Adventists and other Creeds...I know VERy few Protestants that keep the Sabbath Holy, however I know MANY 7THDA that do..Maybe it would offend them if we moved it to Sat..It should be Friday
Next we Have to get rid of the Pagan trees with lights and the fat white haired guy...
After that..The EVIL BUNNY
and Valentines Day...Forget about it..That Cupid is just Lucifers lil fairy...don't doubt me, I KNOW FAIRIES..
GET OVER IT CHRISTIANS>>
DO you think CHRIST DIED for this nonsense?
Why not get out there and feed the hungry, heal he wounded,visit the lonely and sick,Do the Lords work, there is PLENTY of it out there waiting.Stop quibbling over childrens fun days..
I would hate to think that poor man was nailed to a cross so Christians could argue if lil kids dressing up to get candy on a Sunday is blasphemy.

Dionysus
October 18th, 2004, 04:06 PM
Damn right Tink. ;)

The STUPID s#!t people get themselves worked up over sometimes...

Fyshhed
October 18th, 2004, 04:58 PM
Damn right Tink. ;)

The STUPID s#!t people get themselves worked up over sometimes...
Fight for the right to trick or treat!!!!!11one

Galendir
October 18th, 2004, 05:00 PM
I will admit that while I knew the Jewish Shabbat is Saturday, I have heard the term "Sabbath" used for Sunday all through my life.By Christians no doubt.

I know there are Christians who retain Saturday as the holy day of the week, rather than Sunday. Could it be possible that "Sabbath", in the vernacular, means "Sunday", while technically it refers to Saturday, with Sunday being the Lord's Day, or the day of rest?Thank you Kev for proving my assessment correct (and Apok's wrong) by tacitly admitting that you find no real fault in referring to Sunday as the Sabbath, and in fact suspect that this is the vernacular meaning of the term. And for again further supporting my conclusion that you do not recognize the theological distinctions between the Sabbath and the 'Lord's Day' by specifically referring to the latter as "the day of rest".

Galendir
October 18th, 2004, 05:08 PM
I know MANY 7THDA that [keep the Sabbath Holy]..Maybe it would offend them if we moved it to Sat..It should be FridayActually, since Sabbatarians, Jews, and Muslims recognize the Sabbath as beginning Friday evening at dusk and ending Saturday evening at dusk, moving Halloween from Saturday night to Friday night would not be doing them a favor.

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 05:15 PM
By Christians no doubt.
Thank you Kev for proving my assessment correct (and Apok's wrong) by tacitly admitting that you find no real fault in referring to Sunday as the Sabbath, and in fact suspect that this is the vernacular meaning of the term. And for again further supporting my conclusion that you do not recognize the theological distinctions between the Sabbath and the 'Lord's Day' by specifically referring to the latter as "the day of rest".
His admission here didn't help your fallacious reasoning in the least. Nice try though. ;)

Galendir
October 18th, 2004, 05:21 PM
His admission here didn't help your fallacious reasoning in the least. Nice try though. ;)It demonstrated my very simple point. Some Christians erroneously refer to Sunday as the Sabbath.
It demonstrated that your claim to the contrary is false.

KevinBrowning
October 18th, 2004, 05:48 PM
It demonstrated my very simple point. Some Christians erroneously refer to Sunday as the Sabbath.
It demonstrated that your claim to the contrary is false.

Gal, most Christians that I know or have read from consider Sunday as the Sabbath under the New Covenant, or day of rest. It has shifted from Saturday to Sunday in most Christian traditions, because Christ was resurrected on Sunday. I realize the historical distinctions, and am using Sabbath in the way it's usually considered by Christians now. I have never heard of any Christians, except for Sabbatarians or 7th Day Adventists, ascribe any theological importance to Saturday, except in its historical capacity as the Jewish Shabbat or Sabbath, which originates from God's day of rest on the seventh day. Why is this even so crucial to the thread? This is about how the majority of Americans see the coincidence of Hallowe'en with Sunday, or what's widely known as the Sabbath, as somewhat offensive, if not appalling. Could you please try to address this concern, instead of debating semantics to prove a point? Thanks.

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 06:03 PM
Gal, yes, some Christians confuse the two. I've never claimed that there are no Christians who do. I've never claimed the contrary. What I claimed, was that you created a straw man, Kev nor any other Christian in the article claimed what you argued they did. You interjected an argument that had absolutely NOTHING to do with Kev's post and linked article. Now, please try to stay on topic, we are passed the Sabbath != Sunday issue.

Just to be clear here, the issue is: Should Halloween (or any Holiday for the matter) be moved to other dates than they fall on, for the simple reason that it offends some groups of people? Most people in this thread, respond with "no". You have yet, to address the actual issue of the thread. I do not recall once where you have remained on point here.

Meng Bomin
October 18th, 2004, 06:40 PM
Didn't need to read the link, saw the religion, knew enough. A blatent mischaracterization on your part.

Also, if they too believe that the Sabbath has been replaced with the Lord's Day, then it was never a supportive link FOR your argument, but against it. False, my aregument was that some Christians that were not children believe that Sunday is the Sabbath (that's what the quoted text was). You claimed that only children get that confused. I was simply refuting your point. My argument still stands, yours does not.

His admission here didn't help your fallacious reasoning in the least. Nice try though. What fallacious reasoning has Gal commited? It would be nice if you would back your accusations.

Apokalupsis
October 18th, 2004, 06:51 PM
A blatent mischaracterization on your part.
What was exactly?



False, my aregument was that some Christians that were not children believe that Sunday is the Sabbath (that's what the quoted text was). You claimed that only children get that confused.
No, since no evidence whatsoever was provided at that point, the only evidence was that of my own experience. I never once claimed that no Christian got confused, in fact, I admited that some do...see opening responses.


I was simply refuting your point. My argument still stands, yours does not.
This doesn't make sense...you provided a link that doesn't support your argument...and your argument stands on this?...what?



What fallacious reasoning has Gal commited? It would be nice if you would back your accusations.
THOROUGHLY explained in post #26. http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/showpost.php?p=51270&postcount=26

Meng Bomin
October 18th, 2004, 07:03 PM
What was exactly? That since the article was done by that sect of Christians that it wasn't worth looking at.

No, since no evidence whatsoever was provided at that point, the only evidence was that of my own experience. WHY DO YOU THINK I PROVIDED THOSE TWO ARTICLES? It really should not be that hard.

This doesn't make sense...you provided a link that doesn't support your argument...and your argument stands on this?...what? My argument is that more Christians than simply children believe that Sunday is the Sabbath. My two article excepts support that and what Kev said supports that. Your experience hardly serves as evidence. Kev's admission proved your point false.

THOROUGHLY explained in post #26. Perhaps you could concisely state it here because I don't see how post 26 demonstrates that the argument is fallacious.

HermanPetri
October 18th, 2004, 07:21 PM
Kevin,

I find it interesting that most Christians in America have no problem with the use of such pagan traditions as bringing evergreens into their home during the winter. Especially considering that this tradition was specifically adopted to celebrate one of the most holy Christian holidays of all, Christmas. Strange also that the festival like traditions of "Los Dias de los Muertos" resemble Halloween in the most macabre sense, for observances that are decidedly Roman Catholic in origin, All Souls Day and All Saints Day. I'll leave it to you to consider why eggs and rabbits have become traditions associated with Easter.

Perhaps most importantly of all is the continued assault of various Christian churches upon pagan holidays and festivals by way of slandering and outright inventing fabricated nonsense about their practices. Devils and witches had nothing whatsoever to do with the ancient Celtic observance of Samhain. In fact it is largely believed that such stories were inventions of the Catholic Church in an effort to discourage pagan "backsliders" - AFTER the Church had already moved its observance of All Saints Day to roughly coincide with Samhain in the first place.

Learn About Halloween (http://people.howstuffworks.com/halloween.htm)

What is interesting to note is that although the old pagan traditions did assume that spirits walked the earth during this period of the year, it was not assumed that they were evil or harmful. The harmful spirits came out a little later in the winter. That's why they put up evergreen plants such as holly and misteltoe. Those plants appeared to be immune from the debilitating affects of the spirits even in winter and so it was thought they could protect a home if you "decked the halls" with them.

And why should the pagan beliefs in spirits, good or evil, be considered any worse than the Christian beliefs in spirits of good and evil???

KevinBrowning
October 19th, 2004, 07:24 AM
What is interesting to note is that although the old pagan traditions did assume that spirits walked the earth during this period of the year, it was not assumed that they were evil or harmful. The harmful spirits came out a little later in the winter. That's why they put up evergreen plants such as holly and misteltoe. Those plants appeared to be immune from the debilitating affects of the spirits even in winter and so it was thought they could protect a home if you "decked the halls" with them.

And why should the pagan beliefs in spirits, good or evil, be considered any worse than the Christian beliefs in spirits of good and evil???

HP: THANK YOU for being the first one to actually address my intended topic and provide a solid argument rather than endlessly haranguing me over semantics. I will formulate a response later, but I just wanted to express my appreciation to you and any others I have missed who have attempted to stay true to my topic of discussion rather than berate Apok. over something I SAID.

Fyshhed
October 19th, 2004, 10:32 AM
HP: THANK YOU for being the first one to actually address my intended topic and provide a solid argument rather than endlessly haranguing me over semantics. I will formulate a response later, but I just wanted to express my appreciation to you and any others I have missed who have attempted to stay true to my topic of discussion rather than berate Apok. over something I SAID.
For what it's worth Kev, I understand your argument completely. I am not unfamiliar with the origins of All Hallows' Eve.


However, it is equally foolish to claim that it remains the same practice as it once was as it is to claim that Christmas or Easter is the same practice it once was. The paganism has been replaced with Hershey's and Snickers and Reece's. ;) There is no threat in contemporary Halloween. I might see something to complain about if this happened a couple thousand years ago, though.
:P

HermanPetri
October 19th, 2004, 01:21 PM
Kevin,

No problem at all. Personally, I find the discussion of the history of our traditions to be quite interesting. I don't really have much of a stake in the final outcome either way except on principle. I'm neither a pagan nor a Christian but I can see the reasonable objections both might have. For me Halloween is simply a fun holiday that I participate in only if I have no other business that evening. And Sunday for me is simply another day of the week on which I often have to work.

I guess the question is, do the individuals of one religion have a legitimate interest in petitioning the rescheduling of an unrelated and informal national holiday because it happens to occasionally coincide with one of their frequent holy observances? I could see it both ways considering the specifics of the case, but in this case I happen to lean in favor of letting it stand as is.

Galendir
October 19th, 2004, 01:41 PM
Gal, yes, some Christians confuse the two. I've never claimed that there are no Christians who do. I've never claimed the contrary.You claimed that the only such Christians were children.

The only Christians I'm aware of being confused are children.
What I claimed, was that you created a straw man, Kev nor any other Christian in the article claimed what you argued they did. You interjected an argument that had absolutely NOTHING to do with Kev's post and linked article.And this is a false accusation. I never argued that any Christians claimed anything. I merely made a brief parenthetical observation that some Christians are confused about the Sabbath, which was evidenced by the thread author's comments and thread title. No knowledgeable Christian would have perpetuated such an erroneous understanding by using such a title without posting at least a brief disclaimer (despite your flimsy claims that it was reasonable to do so because it was in the URL, even though it was not the title of the article.:rolleyes:)




Now, please try to stay on topic, we are passed the Sabbath != Sunday issue.As long as you continue to falsely accuse and misrepresent my position, I have the right to respond. If you were genuinely concerned about the thread moving off topic, you should not have kicked the door open in the first place. You could have easily started another thread to address the issue 'Do Christians think Sunday is the Sabbath?' if you were inclined to offer a lengthy rebuttal to such a proposition without cluttering this thread, rather than accusing me of 'being confused', and expecting no response. Or you could have simply let it alone or asked me to start another thread. You chose instead to debate it here.
Your threats of censoring off topic posts are hypocritical.
It was you who unnecessarily turned a minor observation into a debate (not the first time) and dragged the thread off course.
I have already refrained from responding to your last lengthy (hypocritical) post, despite its numerous errors and falsehoods. I think everyone can see through it.
My simple observation that some Christians erroneously refer to Sunday as the Sabbath has been demonstrated.
My conclusion based on his comments and chosen thread title that Kevin is such a Christian has been borne out.
Your argument that my conclusion was unjustified and your suggestion that only Christian children demonstrate confusion about the Sabbath being Sunday has been shown false.
Your attacks are all wet so now you start hypocritically shouting 'stay on topic' and threaten censorship. Attend to your own counsel, and drop the issue and the continued attacks, and start another thread, or pm me, or move to the shout box if you want to pursue the issue further.


Just to be clear here, the issue is: Should Halloween (or any Holiday for the matter) be moved to other dates than they fall on, for the simple reason that it offends some groups of people? Most people in this thread, respond with "no". You have yet, to address the actual issue of the thread. I do not recall once where you have remained on point here.Actually the astute might see my initial comment as highlighting how ludicrous it is that some Christians who are so offended that a holiday (of which they are so ignorant of the origins and development so as to think that its purpose is for worshiping the devil, and is anti-Christian) would fall on their 'holy day' of Sunday are also so ignorant about their own religious history/theology as to think it appropriate to refer to that day as the Sabbath, or that calling it such is a semantic non-issue.
One might also note the irony that just as the (real) Sabbath is measured from sundown to sunup, so too was the 'Lord's Day' by those early Christians, and that moving the holiday celebration from Sunday night to Saturday night is actually moving it to the very 'eve' of their 'holy day' rather than from it.

KevinBrowning
October 19th, 2004, 04:29 PM
Actually the astute might see my initial comment as highlighting how ludicrous it is that some Christians who are so offended that a holiday (of which they are so ignorant of the origins and development so as to think that its purpose is for worshiping the devil, and is anti-Christian) would fall on their 'holy day' of Sunday are also so ignorant about their own religious history/theology as to think it appropriate to refer to that day as the Sabbath, or that calling it such is a semantic non-issue.
One might also note the irony that just as the (real) Sabbath is measured from sundown to sunup, so too was the 'Lord's Day' by those early Christians, and that moving the holiday celebration from Sunday night to Saturday night is actually moving it to the very 'eve' of their 'holy day' rather than from it.

Gal: My initial post said that I find it somewhat offensive that Halloween is falling on a Sunday this year. It does not really bother me that much. Since I and every Christian I know consider Sunday to be the Lord's Day, also sometimes known as the Sabbath, regardless of the historical meaning of the term, I think that the coincidence with a pagan holiday is unfortunate, but not something I'm going to take up arms about. I really do not consider Saturday to have much if any of a modern spiritual significance for Christians. Also, the only people here who have said that Saturday would be just as offensive for Christians are atheists. However, I brought this up mostly just as an interesting historical discussion, with my personal opinion that it shouldn't coincide with Sunday as basically a footnote. Maybe this thread would be better understood not as saying "Shouldn't we move Halloween to Saturday?", but as asking, 'What is there to observe about Halloween's interaction with Christianity, brought to mind by its upcoming simultaneity with Sunday, which, whatever one calls it, is the holy day of the week for contemporary Christians?"

Fyshhed
October 19th, 2004, 06:17 PM
Gal: My initial post said that I find it somewhat offensive that Halloween is falling on a Sunday this year. It does not really bother me that much. Since I and every Christian I know consider Sunday to be the Lord's Day, also sometimes known as the Sabbath, regardless of the historical meaning of the term, I think that the coincidence with a pagan holiday is unfortunate, but not something I'm going to take up arms about. I really do not consider Saturday to have much if any of a modern spiritual significance for Christians. Also, the only people here who have said that Saturday would be just as offensive for Christians are atheists. However, I brought this up mostly just as an interesting historical discussion, with my personal opinion that it shouldn't coincide with Sunday as basically a footnote. Maybe this thread would be better understood not as saying "Shouldn't we move Halloween to Saturday?", but as asking, 'What is there to observe about Halloween's interaction with Christianity, brought to mind by its upcoming simultaneity with Sunday, which, whatever one calls it, is the holy day of the week for contemporary Christians?"

So you think having fun by treating little kids to candy on the "Lord's Day" is still wrong because the origins of such a day are based in pagan spirit-belief? Keep in mind that for the children (whom this holiday is for) it is about pretending to be something else for a night and getting candy. It's fun, it's something they look forward to, and it's harmless.

So if the children, in their innocence, do not believe they are doing something diabolical or celebrating paganism (and they certainly are not) why should they care? Why should adults care? We have much to learn from children ;)

mrs_innocent
October 19th, 2004, 06:59 PM
Also, the only people here who have said that Saturday would be just as offensive for Christians are atheists.

I'm not entirely sure if I've said this myself or not, but I know that I have thought it, which is agreement just the same. Here's how I see it:

1) Christians feel Halloween is the day for the 'devil'.
2) Christians believe Sunday is a day for the 'lord'.
3) Some Christians feel that Halloween celebration on a Sunday is morally wrong to one degree or another, and that it goes against god.
4) ***My own opinion*** Regardless of the day on which Halloween is celebrated, Christians should be consistent. If they feel Halloween is the day for the 'devil', don't celebrate it NO MATTER WHAT DAY IT FALLS ON.


Just as a side note, I've included some links (again) regarding the origin of Halloween, as well as how it relates to Christianity.

As a Pagan Festival (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/paganism/festivals/samhain.shtml)
Relating to Christianity (http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/features/halloween/halloween2.shtml)

The question I'm left asking, though, is why should Christians be able to [attempt to] dictate which non-Christian festivals may be celebrated, and how it should be done?

Apokalupsis
October 22nd, 2004, 11:53 AM
. If you were genuinely concerned about the thread moving off topic, you should not have kicked the door open in the first place.
Aye, you are correct here. Had I known that the thread would have been thrown so far out of wack through your argumentation, I would not have corrected your error.

In the future, I will simply delete all of your off-topic comments to prevent further contamination of the thread.



Or you could have simply let it alone or asked me to start another thread. You chose instead to debate it here.
That is correct.



Your threats of censoring off topic posts are hypocritical.
It's not a thread. Nor is it hypocritical. I think you misunderstand the nature of hypocrisy. It would be hypocritical had I suggested that it is acceptable for me to continue the discussion re: Sabbath, and for you not to. But again, to avoid such problems again in the future, all noticed off-topic posts will be edited or removed. Unfortunately, posting off-topic has become a bad habit for you, and you disagree with ODN's definition and decisions of what is considered off-topic. We can't make everyone happy, nor will we attempt to. We will run the site as Apok wishes to. That's just something you will have to learn to respect and accept while you are debating here.



It was you who unnecessarily turned a minor observation into a debate (not the first time) and dragged the thread off course.
Incorrect. Your argument had no place in this thread. It was off-topic. It did nothing to address Kev's argumenation, nor the articles. That is the reason it was refuted. It is not acceptable to post off-topic remarks and for said remarks to not be commented on.



I have already refrained from responding to your last lengthy (hypocritical) post, despite its numerous errors and falsehoods.
Claiming it, isn't the same thing as showing it to be true. Use the "NEW THREAD" button if you so choose.



My simple observation that some Christians erroneously refer to Sunday as the Sabbath has been demonstrated.
...I don't recall suggesting otherwise. My objection was with you for some reason thinking that this was the crux of the issue...when it certainly was not OR, you making the off-topic comment that addressed nothing.



Your attacks are all wet so now you start hypocritically shouting 'stay on topic' and threaten censorship.
Again, start a new thread. Simply claiming it and supporting it are not the same...surely you know this. Perhaps not.


Attend to your own counsel, and drop the issue and the continued attacks, and start another thread, or pm me, or move to the shout box if you want to pursue the issue further.
Actually, as site owner and admin I have the responsibility to correct posters in error concerning ODN policy as I have created and interpret. When you are capable of creating your own community, you may promote any such policy you wish. Until then, you abide by ODN's.



Actually the astute might see my initial comment as highlighting how ludicrous it is that some Christians who are so offended that a holiday (of which they are so ignorant of the origins and development so as to think that its purpose is for worshiping the devil, and is anti-Christian) would fall on their 'holy day' of Sunday are also so ignorant about their own religious history/theology as to think it appropriate to refer to that day as the Sabbath, or that calling it such is a semantic non-issue.
Incorrect. It is illogical to assume that others should assume what you were saying. Say what you mean and mean what you say. When in doubt, or confused, try drawing up a simple syllogism. It will make things clearer for you.



One might also note the irony that just as the (real) Sabbath is measured from sundown to sunup, so too was the 'Lord's Day' by those early Christians, and that moving the holiday celebration from Sunday night to Saturday night is actually moving it to the very 'eve' of their 'holy day' rather than from it.
Again, has nothing to do with Kev's argumentation.

Now...for the last time...do you have ANYTHING to add to the real subject of this thread? If not, move on. If so, then by all means participate.

Apokalupsis
October 22nd, 2004, 11:59 AM
So if the children, in their innocence, do not believe they are doing something diabolical or celebrating paganism (and they certainly are not) why should they care? Why should adults care? We have much to learn from children ;)
While I do agree that Halloween on Sunday is an objection by some, appears to be unwarranted, not very well thought out, and hypocritical...I disagree with your assertion here.

Simply because a group of people believe something is harmless, doesn't mean that it is. That appears to be your reasoning as to why it should be allowed. It would be more convincing if you showed how the Christian's claims that this is a day of "devil celebration" were wrong, or that they were being hypocritical, etc...as many have done already in this thread.

But parents, are the caretakers of children. Parents, ought not leave children open to their own devices. Of course, this could go to the extreme and initiate the question: Should parents prevent their child from X (which they - the parent - believe to be wrong and harmful), even if X is not wrong and/or harmful? Would it be responsible for a parent to not protect the child from X if X is thought to be wrong...but actually isn't?

I do commend these parents for at least sticking up for what they believe. What they believe, is incorrect IMO...but at least they are not compromising their beliefs.

Fyshhed
October 22nd, 2004, 01:18 PM
Simply because a group of people believe something is harmless, doesn't mean that it is. That appears to be your reasoning as to why it should be allowed. It would be more convincing if you showed how the Christian's claims that this is a day of "devil celebration" were wrong, or that they were being hypocritical, etc...as many have done already in this thread.

I already did. I made the claim that Halloween is NOW about candy and costumes, not that it did not in the past be about dissauding spirits. This was by offering the proposition that in my neighborhoods for the several I have lived in during my brief chunk of years have had no qualms with celebrating Halloween. It is viewed, in both the adults and children, as a holiday for children to celebrate by dressing up and getting candy. Not a single citizen I have ever met believes:
A)The children believe they are being evil.
B)The children are being evil without knowing it.
C)There are ANY pagan spirit activities remaining in said celebration by the children.


But parents, are the caretakers of children. Parents, ought not leave children open to their own devices. Of course, this could go to the extreme and initiate the question: Should parents prevent their child from X (which they - the parent - believe to be wrong and harmful), even if X is not wrong and/or harmful? Would it be responsible for a parent to not protect the child from X if X is thought to be wrong...but actually isn't?
It is up to the parents to recognize that the present is not the past. If they believe Halloween is about the devil, they have the right to stop their kids from celebrating it. The question is, if they did allow their children to do the same thing as other children, would they notice a distinct lack of spirit-worship or demonic activity? It comes down to "what is the parent protecting from?" Diabetic kids aught not to eat 30 snickers and 15 pixi sticks, lest they fail to wake up the next day. That's responsible. I challenge the notion that any link between dressing up as a princess and collecting snickers and Satan exists.



I do commend these parents for at least sticking up for what they believe. What they believe, is incorrect IMO...but at least they are not compromising their beliefs. I agree. However, I personally believe they are uninformed as to contemporary practice. They CANNOT halt the Halloween practice without also halting Christmas and possibly Easter (or at least changing them.) for also existing with pagan roots, lest they be hypocrites, and one thing we know that children are better at than parents is that they are NOT hypocrites on their own. If they're foolish, or if they're brutal, it doesn't take long to find out ;)