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czahar
July 14th, 2009, 11:05 PM
I don't have any formal training in logic or philosophy. In fact, everything that I've learned about it has come from this site. I'd eventually like to take some formal courses in it but right now, due to work and finances, I just can't. Getting straight to the point, does anyone know of any great sites that can help a near beginner like me with logic i.e., the art of debate and reasoning? I've already found a good one on logical fallacies (thanks Aspo!):

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I also feel that posting sites like these (perhaps stickying them in a certain forum) might help some of our . . . well . . . less capable debaters improve their skills.

Hope to get lots of replies.

Aspoestertjie
July 15th, 2009, 04:14 AM
My pleasure Czahar, glad I could help. ;):

CliveStaples
July 15th, 2009, 05:26 AM
Wikipedia is good, although many articles use as much unexplained jargon as possible.

czahar
July 15th, 2009, 05:34 AM
Wikipedia is good, although many articles use as much unexplained jargon as possible.

I noticed that, too. You'd think with Wiki's common man image that some of the people would put an effort into using laymen's terms, but some of the jargon I've read off that site is outright intimidating for someone who's a complete beginner in a subject.

CliveStaples
July 15th, 2009, 05:44 AM
I noticed that, too. You'd think with Wiki's common man image that some of the people would put an effort into using laymen's terms, but some of the jargon I've read off that site is outright intimidating for someone who's a complete beginner in a subject.

If you're researching symbolic logic, this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_symbols) is very useful.

If you're having trouble understanding the tangled mess that wikipedia often presents for laypeople, it might help to actually 'take notes', and write down the paragraph and work through it slowly.

Dionysus
July 15th, 2009, 05:46 AM
I don't have any formal training in logic or philosophy. In fact, everything that I've learned about it has come from this site. I'd eventually like to take some formal courses in it but right now, due to work and finances, I just can't. Getting straight to the point, does anyone know of any great sites that can help a near beginner like me with logic i.e., the art of debate and reasoning? I've already found a good one on logical fallacies (thanks Aspo!):

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I also feel that posting sites like these (perhaps stickying them in a certain forum) might help some of our . . . well . . . less capable debaters improve their skills.

Hope to get lots of replies.It's funny that you mention that nizkor site. Years ago, Apok got permission from that very site for us to use their content to populate ODN's fallacy database (a project that fell off the radar).

czahar
July 15th, 2009, 05:49 AM
If you're researching symbolic logic, this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_symbols) is very useful.

If you're having trouble understanding the tangled mess that wikipedia often presents for laypeople, it might help to actually 'take notes', and write down the paragraph and work through it slowly.

Been taking quite a bit of notes, actually. I'm also in the middle of reading Logic: A Comprehensive Introduction by Samuel D. Guttenplan and Martin Tamny. It's a great read because it's thorough enough to give a quality understanding of all the most valid points of logic, my written with enough laymen's terms as to not intimidate.

The table was great, though, Clive. Thanks.

Aspoestertjie
July 15th, 2009, 06:01 AM
It's funny that you mention that nizkor site. Years ago, Apok got permission from that very site for us to use their content to populate ODN's fallacy database (a project that fell off the radar).

You know what I like about Nizkor... They update it frequently and it really helps because they give such good examples of the fallacies. I didn't come across any better source for fallacies yet.

Lord Infamous
July 15th, 2009, 07:57 AM
A couple days ago in a thread I mentioned that I had bought some books for arguments and sh!t. One of the books I got is an introduction to logic. If you ever hit up amazon you could check it out. Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Logic-Harry-Gensler/dp/0415226759/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247673140&sr=1-3

^^That's a good book. I've read up to chapter 3 but I've stopped reading it. Dunno why.

Hell I'll just go ahead and link the other 2 books I got as well. :grin:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-Straight-Introduction-Reasoning/dp/1573922390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247673181&sr=1-1

^^That's an introduction to critical reasoning. The book didn't get too many good reviews but I personally thought it was good. And here's the last one:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/A-Rulebook-for-Arguments/Anthony-Weston/e/9780872205536/?itm=5

^^That book is very good. I'm currently reading it now. It covers a little bit of elementary logic. I even quoted one of the author's statements as you can see. :afro:

Oh yeah I forgot to link the author of the first book's page. http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/

Check out his philosophy exercises.

Dionysus
July 15th, 2009, 08:07 AM
A couple days ago in a thread I mentioned that I had bought some books for arguments and sh!t. One of the books I got is an introduction to logic. If you ever hit up amazon you could check it out. Here it is:

http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-Logic-Harry-Gensler/dp/0415226759/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247673140&sr=1-3

^^That's a good book. I've read up to chapter 3 but I've stopped reading it. Dunno why.

Hell I'll just go ahead and link the other 2 books I got as well. :grin:

http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-Straight-Introduction-Reasoning/dp/1573922390/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1247673181&sr=1-1

^^That's an introduction to critical reasoning. The book didn't get too many good reviews but I personally thought it was good. And here's the last one:

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/A-Rulebook-for-Arguments/Anthony-Weston/e/9780872205536/?itm=5

^^That book is very good. I'm currently reading it now. It covers a little bit of elementary logic. I even quoted one of the author's statements as you can see. :afro:

Oh yeah I forgot to link the author of the first book's page. http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/

Check out his philosophy exercises.Let me see...

/checks thread title


Good Sites for Learning Logic?

Hmm... I don't see anything about books there...

/checks opening post


I don't have any formal training in logic or philosophy. In fact, everything that I've learned about it has come from this site. I'd eventually like to take some formal courses in it but right now, due to work and finances, I just can't. Getting straight to the point, does anyone know of any great sites that can help a near beginner like me with logic i.e., the art of debate and reasoning? I've already found a good one on logical fallacies (thanks Aspo!):

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

I also feel that posting sites like these (perhaps stickying them in a certain forum) might help some of our . . . well . . . less capable debaters improve their skills.

Hope to get lots of replies.Nope. No mention of books there either.

/checks LI's post

Hmmm...

No sites there that I can see. Only links to books you have to buy to be able to read.

Weird...

Lord Infamous
July 15th, 2009, 08:11 AM
Let me see...

/checks thread title


Good Sites for Learning Logic?

Hmm... I don't see anything about books there...

/checks opening post

Nope. No mention of books there either.

/checks LI's post

Hmmm...

No sites there that I can see. Only links to books you have to buy to be able to read.

Weird...

http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/

^^^That's a link to his website that has exercises for logic. So hop off the sack please Dio . Czhar also said he's been reading a book on logic too, so he might wanna check out the ones I linked.

Dionysus
July 15th, 2009, 08:13 AM
http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/

^^^That's a link to his website that has exercises for logic. So hop off the sack please Dio . Czhar also said he's been reading a book on logic too, so he might wanna check out the ones I linked.He also said he's on a budget, so he might not.

;)

Trendem
July 15th, 2009, 08:20 AM
I think Nizkor and Wikipedia are really all you need. Stanford's Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://plato.stanford.edu/) is also quite useful for debates involving logic or philosophy.

But really, a sense of logic is innate to all of us; you don't need to "learn" the law of non-contradiction of the principle of bivalence. Learning the jargon might make you more impressive in debates, but I think it is overrated. It is easier to use plain English and illustrations to expose logical flaws instead of writing complex proofs which few people can understand anyway.

Vandaler
July 15th, 2009, 08:54 AM
This site (http://www.thelogiccourse.com/bluestorm/) is good.

CliveStaples
July 15th, 2009, 10:06 AM
I think Nizkor and Wikipedia are really all you need. Stanford's Encyclopedia of Philosophy (http://plato.stanford.edu/) is also quite useful for debates involving logic or philosophy.

But really, a sense of logic is innate to all of us; you don't need to "learn" the law of non-contradiction of the principle of bivalence. Learning the jargon might make you more impressive in debates, but I think it is overrated. It is easier to use plain English and illustrations to expose logical flaws instead of writing complex proofs which few people can understand anyway.

Not everything that is intuitive is true--and not everything that is true is intuitive.

Trendem
July 15th, 2009, 10:32 AM
Not everything that is intuitive is true--and not everything that is true is intuitive.
I never said otherwise. I was simply pointing out that you don't need a course of logic to discover that A=A, that something cannot be true and not true at the same time, or that if all men are mortal and Socrates is a man, then Socrates is a mortal.

What a course in logic does teach you, is the vocabulary of logic, so that you can bandy around terms like "syllogism" or "the law of the excluded middle" or "post hoc ergo propter hoc".

CliveStaples
July 15th, 2009, 10:42 AM
I never said otherwise. I was simply pointing out that you don't need a course of logic to discover that A=A, that something cannot be true and not true at the same time, or that if all men are mortal and Socrates is a man, then Socrates is a mortal.

This is true--but it does help you to order your thinking. Many truths seem obvious once we are exposed to them; studying logic just exposes you to more of them.


What a course in logic does teach you, is the vocabulary of logic, so that you can bandy around terms like "syllogism" or "the law of the excluded middle" or "post hoc ergo propter hoc".

Erm, there's a lot more to it than that, although I'd wager the majority of the applications are to mathematics.

GoldPhoenix
July 16th, 2009, 06:18 PM
Czahar, I would PM you but it seems your profile doesn't allow it.


Long story short, for a project I'm working on I need someone who isn't familiar with logic but is willing to learn a fair amount about it. Would you mind enabling PMs for a day and sending me you MSN/AIM/YIM address(es)?

If you don't know what this is, then you should search them on Google and download one of them.

GoldPhoenix
July 17th, 2009, 09:41 PM
Here's some basic links:

http://papyr.com/hypertextbooks/comp1/logic.htm
http://www1.ca.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/index.html#index

A university logic tutorial:
http://www.jcu.edu/philosophy/gensler/logic.htm

Here's some from Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy (Which is in general an awesome source of information on philosophy and logic).

Being familiar with logic/philosophy, I would suggest the following sources (Not just on logic, but philosophy with a particular focus on logic, ethics, and ontology):

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/aristotle-logic/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-informal/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/logic-ontology/
http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ethics-virtue/


And

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_thought
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllogism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_connective
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necessary_and_sufficient
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modus_ponens


NOTE: For all of these, try to ignore all the symbolism at first. You need to understand concepts before you get to logical equations.

Apokalupsis
July 18th, 2009, 08:36 AM
It's funny that you mention that nizkor site. Years ago, Apok got permission from that very site for us to use their content to populate ODN's fallacy database (a project that fell off the radar).I started that project years back using pure html, but it was a daunting task at the time to integrate it well with the site.

With the portal system we have now, it would be easier, but still take some time.

I believe it is important to have an official ODN Fallacy Page so that there is one universal source for fallacies (since there is often debate amongst logicians and philosophers on how some fallacies are applied). Some are obvious and rarely do scholars squibble over their application, others though can involve much debate, so using a single source can become important.

There will always be detractors, which is why at the time, we were going to use a Fallacy Forum (similar to what we have now) to suggest amending the official list when need be.

Not sure if this project will re-launch any time soon, but now that it has been mentioned, I'll give it some thought.

Czar, if you ever decide to pick up some actual books, let me know, I have a small library collected over the years (from college and from just picking up at the bookstore) on logic, philosophy and fallacious theory (probably about 80-100 books in all). Some are great introductions (which in themselves, can be rather exhaustive...they are a far cry from "Dummy" books), some much more in depth (addressing the many types of logic and more complex philosophical concepts and arguments).

Apokalupsis
July 19th, 2009, 06:50 PM
Update #1...

Just exchanged a few emails with. Dr. Michael C. Labossiere, creator of Fallacy Tutorial Pro and fallacy content on Nizkor. He re-upped the offer (or allowance) for us to host his content, then referred me to a Dr. Curtis who has even more content at FallacyFiles.org.

I'm also in communication with a publishing company about copyrights involving an excellent collegiate level textbook on Fallacious Theory.

If all works out as planned, I'm going to make this my next big project...should be great with all the content and even perhaps some help from outside the site (from professors and grad students). I'll keep you posted.