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mrs_innocent
February 5th, 2004, 03:58 PM
I found myself having a discussion about this the other day and decided to bring it here. Just to keep things clear, here is some information about teen pregnancy from the National Campaign to Prevent Teenage Pregnancy (www.teenpregnancy.org).

- Future prospects for teenagers decline significantly if they have a baby. Teen mothers are less likely to complete school and more likely to be single parents. Less than one-third of teens who begin their families before age 18 ever earn a high school diploma. Only 1.5% earn a college degree by the age of 30.

-There are serious health risks for adolescents who have babies. Young adolescents (particularly those under age 15) experience a maternal death rate 2.5 times greater than that of mothers aged 20-24.

-Teen pregnancy is closely linked to poverty and single parenthood. A 1990 study showed that almost one-half of all teenage mothers and over three-quarters of unmarried teen mothers began receiving welfare within five years of the birth of their first child. The growth in single-parent families remains the single most important reason for increased poverty among children over the last twenty years, as documented in the 1998 Economic Report of the President. Out-of-wedlock childbearing (as opposed to divorce) is currently the driving force behind the growth in the number of single parents, and half of first out-of-wedlock births are to teens. Therefore, reducing teen pregnancy and child-bearing is an obvious place to anchor serious efforts to reduce poverty in future generations.

-Children born to teen mothers suffer from higher rates of low birth weight and related health problems. The proportion of babies with low birth weights born to teens is 21 percent higher than the proportion for mothers age 20-24. Low birth weight raises the probabilities of infant death, blindness, deafness, chronic respiratory problems, mental retardation, mental illness, and cerebral palsy. In addition, low birth weight doubles the chances that a child will later be diagnosed as having dyslexia, hyperactivity, or another disability.

Okay, so I know it's a little wordy...My question to all of you is this : Is teen pregnacy really an "epidemic" in this country? If so, why, and how did it happen?

fimbulvetr
February 5th, 2004, 07:47 PM
I'm perfectly content with making statistics like this available, and believe it can influence some of them.

Epidemic? No. Outside of the past 100 years, how do we know this is abnormal, relative to the population? Why should we make this assumption on ~100 years of data when the human race has (supposedly) been around for 60k-100k+ years?

I believe it's a fundamental human instinct to want (sex) children from puberty+.

If it's not, that's fine too. It'll help to rid the gene pool of edit: 'non-reproductive' genes.

Now, I'm not all Freudian, but it does have alot to do with it.

-fim

mrs_innocent
February 8th, 2004, 10:29 PM
:rolleyes: As a teen parent myself, I find it hard to believe that Freudian Law has anything to do with the seemingly sudden rise in teen pregnancies. Feel free to correct me if you happen upon any proof, though. ;) I do believe that it is human nature to want to experiment and "see what's out there" so-to-speak. But what I'm asking is what do you believe is impacting the increase in teenage pregnancies? Is there not enough sexual education, contraceptive education/availability; or is there simply not enough application of common logic (IE: you're about to get right down to it and the brain kicks in and says, "whoa! i could get pregnant!")? And also, why does the public make such a major issue out of it? Is it out of genuine concern for the teens themselves (not being able to "live their lives", enjoy childhood, get an education....) or for the economy?

Apokalupsis
February 9th, 2004, 12:35 PM
Not an argument, but more of a "discussion" or "rant"...

Perhaps the concern is of a little of both (the teen and economy). I believe the stats, they make sense, it is reasonable.

I'm a parent in my mid 30's...your life dramatically changes in an instant...it is forever changed. Now compound this to 3 children and have them as a teen? That just seems insane to me.

My parents had their kids in their teens as well. It is very, very difficult to not only overcome the challenge of 1) children, 2) your life dramatically changing as a result, and/or 3) life as a teen....but to have to overcome all 3? The odds of success (as far as being measured by society's standards) seem pretty low...and those who do succeed in a happy, healthy social, family, and occupational life are to be commended. They didn't get their by coasting...but by overcoming severe adversity and bustin' their behind to accomplish their goals.

In my 30's I have a challenge of it...there would be no way I could have in my teens (I was just way too immature...not that I've grown up all that much since then :) ).

I of course, would discourage teen pregnancy UNLESS that teen knew what they were doing and had all their ducks in a row. Else, it creates too many complications that most teens are incapable of overcoming.

mrs_innocent
February 9th, 2004, 04:23 PM
Else, it creates too many complications that most teens are incapable of overcoming.

Why would anyone be "incapable" of overcoming such complications? Once someone turns 25--with or without children--should they not be "over" being a teenager? Once someone has had a child for a little while, should they not be "used" to it? I agree with pretty much everything you said, for the record, but I'm a little unclear there.

Yes, it is difficult to have a child at a young age (let alone 3 :eek: ), I didn't know how to "be a Mother" at first, either. In fact, I was afraid of my child! And it was hard on me to not be able to go out and have fun, but rather stay home to feed the baby, change diapers, clean the house, etc, etc....But eventually you snap out of it and say, "Well, this is my life now......things need to get done." I was fortunate enough to have my Mother by my side for help, be it with diapers if I was running low on cash, or simply just an ear. I was fortunate enough to have common sense (which I know is something that a lot of teenagers seem to be lacking), and even more fortunate to find myself amidst my life. And still, even with my life, I would also discourage teenage pregnancies, but how? How does society go about lowering the incidence of 15 year old girls getting pregnant? Yep, rambling again...too many thoughts in my head at once..... ;)

Apokalupsis
February 9th, 2004, 04:33 PM
hehe Note what you quoted me saying there..."most teens are incapable of overcoming". This means that during this particular time in their life as a teen, they are faced with a great number of challenges. They are faced with these challenges without adding the challenge of parenthood. Throw parenthood in the mix, and the stats you referenced previously, will generally ring true.

HOWEVER...this isn't necessary to say that later in adulthood...those challenges are finally met and overcome. A 25 yr old who has been battling these challenges since they were a teen, is quite different than a teen who has just recently been confronted with said challenges.

As far as discouraging teen pregnancy...well...there is only one sure fire way that works. But it's horribly un-pc, and a "policy" I know I couldn't live up to as a teen (or even adult). Abstinence. But that's probably another debate topic. ;)

suchislife
February 10th, 2004, 08:26 PM
:rolleyes: As a teen parent myself, I find it hard to believe that Freudian Law has anything to do with the seemingly sudden rise in teen pregnancies.........But what I'm asking is what do you believe is impacting the increase in teenage pregnancies?

This in no way is putting you down...but what made YOU a teen parent? What impacted YOU to become a pregnant teen? What influences were in your life to lead you down the path you walked?

mrs_innocent
February 10th, 2004, 09:35 PM
This in no way is putting you down...but what made YOU a teen parent? What impacted YOU to become a pregnant teen? What influences were in your life to lead you down the path you walked?


Good point; I was actually wondering if anyone would point that out. ;) And what I have is a very simple answer. I was educated, but I still had the age old teen attitude that says: "It won't happen to me..." There weren't any influences that 'led me down my path.' I was taught, I knew the risk I was taking; I simply did not adhere to what I was taught. Strangely, I wasn't a rebellious kid, and I was smart. (and, for the record: I'm still walking that path ;)) What are people's views on this issue, and where does it come from?

CC
February 11th, 2004, 10:54 AM
Not to sound like father time but my two kids are grown and my grand kids are in school......My daughter's mother was 18 when we got pregnant....rather young but a high school graduate and pretty smart.

I was 21. We divorced after two years. I got custody of my daughter when she was 11 and her mother had taken to the bottle in a big way.

When her mother and I married we had the support of her family, (mine was splintered) but we were not in love so the marriage failed.

I know my ex was a good mother to start. So what happened? (she later lost custody of another daughter from her 2nd husband)

Some times teens step up to the plate and rise to the challenge, and sometimes they don't.

But the same goes with adults. I have seen (and know) many people well into their twenties who are in no way responsible parents. heck, so many adults have a baby with no more thought than they would give over getting a pet!

I see it over and over. Since i deal with many troubled (and not troubled) youth I see that in many cases the reason these kids have problems are because their parents are IDIOTS! They treat their kids like an annoyance, a debt they incurred that takes years to pay off.

So how are teens supposed to avoid the trap of too-early parenthood when there are so many people who do not "step up to the challenge" when they unexpectedly become parents?.......................................... :O)

suchislife
February 12th, 2004, 12:15 PM
What are people's views on this issue, and where does it come from?

My views are this. In one sense, I feel sad for these girls that end up pregnant, because many of them, end up walking down the parenthood path alone. What I dont have any sympathy for though is WHY they became pregnant in the first place. Todays youth has taken the importance out of a sexual relationship. (I know this, because I am guilty of it myself) To have sex with someone today, you dont have to love that person. Actually, you dont even really have to know that person. It has become a game of what color the jelly braclet you're wearing and get caught with that deems what sexual acts you perform(first one that came to mind). Its become a bet amoungst peers of how many woman or men they can sleep with (I know this because I won the bet between my girlfriends-I was high fived and respected amongst my peers, despite many labels I also recieved outside of "my" group ie-slut, whore etc. And men are "studs" as they rack up their numbers) Todays youth "dare" each other to have sex. And these are just to name a few. Some of it is also peer pressure. I could go on forever. I think parents try, but not hard enough. I think parents today turn and look the other direction when the unthinkable is really happening ("This can't happen to our family. It just isnt true" etc etc) I think many young girls today are unaware of the "real life" possiblity of what can hapen when you have sex. Too many of them think "Oh that cant happen to me" when in actuallity, it can. All it takes is an egg and sperm to meet up, and that happens through intercourse. All it takes is for your partner to not know his/her previous partner has AIDS, or G. Warts. I dont think our young teens are forced to take a look at reality. Its all made to be "less dramatic" when in fact, drama will get attention. I also believe a lot of young woman are lacking a loving relationship from their fathers, which in turn leads them to other males within their peer group, and a lot of young woman think "Well, even though I dont want to, if I have sex with him, maybe he'll love me unconditionally" ...These issues NEED to be addressed. Publicly, with in family, in schools, and facts need to be made more available. It needs to be "in your face" kind of. I know for my school...We NEVER talked about sex. It was up to us to "find out". But now smoking..Smoking posters were EVERYWHERE. Lungs that were turned black. REAL pictures of this. Ads about smoking and what it does. Zero-tolerance which subjected us to random seizure of personal belongings and searches. I can tell you this. It may not have stopped smoking, but it sure did slow it down.

Thats MY views! (In a nutshell!)

mrs_innocent
February 14th, 2004, 02:20 AM
I think many young girls today are unaware of the "real life" possiblity of what can hapen when you have sex.

Do you think they're unaware, or just don't care? Personally, I think it's more the latter. Kind of 'if you ignore it, it'll go away'...


Smoking posters were EVERYWHERE

Isn't that ironic??? It was the same way in my high school! Looking back on it now, I have to wonder if they realized how many of the girls walking the halls during that time either were pregnant or already had kids (there were several in my high school with multiple children).

I think you have many very good points. I know it was the same way in high school (omg, I hate saying that...makes me feel old---and I'm only 22 :( )--and unless something changes, it likely always will be. Now that I'm a little older, I've realized how scary the thought is. I have 3 girls, and I'm in no way a role model for them (concerning this topic); nobody to shake my finger and tell them no or that it's not good. They're never going to see the trouble I've had with them, or the sacrifices I've had to make (which, don't get me wrong, I'm not all that disappointed about) because they're obviously too young to be able to see it now, let alone remember it later. I can't very well tell them NO, now can I? Hmmm...

suchislife
February 15th, 2004, 04:16 PM
mrs innocent--I responded to your post but for some reason it didnt make it to the board, so Ill post again to you soon. probably later today

Nathan Hobbs
February 15th, 2004, 10:20 PM
Well just a few thoughts on the orginal question posted by mrs_innocent. Putting all moral and religous thoughts aside lets look at statistics, it is true that in this last centruy couples have been getting married at steadily older ages. the national average is at 25 today for a man and woman to be married for the first time.
This is quite a stark contrast to periods of time before that when couples were often married and self suffecient ready to begin a family by the age of fourteen. Look at the 1800s for example or go back to midevil times. We are living longer but we are taking a lot longer to grow up mature enough to start on our own it appears.
This would have an impact on this whole teen pregnacy issue. Fact is we human beings are still becoming sexually active at the same age that it has been happening at for centuries. Its like clockwork. Some of us suppress it and controll it through religous and moral channells others go get active in highschool even middle school. Well when yesterday pepole were married at such a young age today it is not even legal to be married untill after eighteen. So the problem is how do we prevent kids from doing what theyve been doing for centuries?

Dont get me wrong, I feel that it is a problem and that on the whole (their are always exceptions) todays 14-18 year olds are inmature and not fully ready for the task of raising children. But it is a diffrence in society that gives them that lack of maturity. Physically their body obviously is giving the signals, otherwise their would never be this kind of problem.

tinkerbell
February 20th, 2004, 03:15 PM
I believe Teen's have become desensitized towards sex..We live in a sex driven world.We always have.However as a society we have become much more open to the subject. In my mothers generation a girl was marked if she became pregnant before she wed.She was labeled and removed from her school quietly..In my generation I attended more than 1 baby shower for a girlfriend that was under 18. Something unheard of 25-30 years ago in the suburbs..I don't want to blame or pinpoint the media,two income families, the decline of morals, the internet,music,fashion or materialism..But with the combination of these things, they seem to be a lethal mix and do seem to cater to the decline of family unity, destruction of self-esteem & tradition. Everything has become so mainstream, there seems to be no boundaries on what is considered taboo anymore. I also believe it is up to parents to be more involvd with children, letting them know exactly where they stand on any given issue..I was certainlyfar from a virgin on my wedding night, but I had a clear image my parents would not support me having a child before I could emotionally & financially raise one on my own..I was scared to death of disease and pre-marriage pregnancy and did EVERYTHING within my power to prevent it.I had open and honest discussions with my parents and while they did not support all of my choices they did everything in their power to educate,protect and scare the living poop out of me.I was not influenced by friends or what was around me, but by 2 very involved and frightening parents..I also think too many parents want to be their childrens friends..

On the other hand there seems to be a larger group of woman waiting untill their 40's to start a family.

3rdPersonPlural
February 20th, 2004, 03:35 PM
Let's recall that God's/ nature's/whatever's way of telling us that we are ready to breed is puberty. for 99% of man's existence, puberty meant that boys were ready to go hunt mastadons with the tribe and girls were ready to get their own campfire.

That robust body of socialization cannot be over come in a few generations now that a guy isn't ready for a career until he has an advanced degree and a woman has similar expectations.

So all of a sudden we are to expect teens to reject their natural inclination to breed like rabbits to carry on the species?

Get real.

Teens have always gotten pregnant, it's just a really dumb idea these days and 50 years ago it was shameful but OK if everyone got married toot sweet.

tinkerbell
February 20th, 2004, 09:41 PM
Teens have always gotten pregnant, it's just a really dumb idea these days and 50 years ago it was shameful but OK if everyone got married toot sweet.[/QUOTE]

Of course teens have Always gotten pregnant..The issue at hand is, why the rise?

We all know before the findings of vacinations and antibiotics, the average lifespan was MUCH shorter and familes were started traditionally at a much earlier age. However even if pubescent females could and did become pregnant, many died in childbirth because their bodies were not yet finished developing..I started my period in 4th grade..Do you think that is an appropriate age for me to begin sexual activity? Of course normal urges followed menses but actual intercourse was FAR from my mind or a desire at that point..
I don't deny a teenagers have a high libido.Sure that's the way we are created, but that makes it far from an appropriate activity for the average teen..I often have desires to bash people over the head with a golf club, thats how people are created, we are violent, should we dismiss all primal urges as just "the way God made us"? Thus making them accepatable and not worth trying to prevent or frown upon..

Sam
June 28th, 2004, 11:26 AM
I of course, would discourage teen pregnancy UNLESS that teen knew what they were doing and had all their ducks in a row. Else, it creates too many complications that most teens are incapable of overcoming.

What would you do to discourage a teen pregnancy? It has been proven that the "safe sex" message doesn't work. Teens just aren't mature enough to use birth control all of the time. How would you feel if you knew your daughter was sexually active?

Fyshhed
June 28th, 2004, 11:46 AM
Of course teens have Always gotten pregnant..The issue at hand is, why the rise?

We all know before the findings of vacinations and antibiotics, the average lifespan was MUCH shorter and familes were started traditionally at a much earlier age. However even if pubescent females could and did become pregnant, many died in childbirth because their bodies were not yet finished developing..I started my period in 4th grade..Do you think that is an appropriate age for me to begin sexual activity? Of course normal urges followed menses but actual intercourse was FAR from my mind or a desire at that point..
I don't deny a teenagers have a high libido.Sure that's the way we are created, but that makes it far from an appropriate activity for the average teen..I often have desires to bash people over the head with a golf club, thats how people are created, we are violent, should we dismiss all primal urges as just "the way God made us"? Thus making them accepatable and not worth trying to prevent or frown upon..

I wouldn't call it a rise so much a re-rise. Back before social taboos I'm sure people were much less concerned with the issue and pregnancies were much more rampant. Of course back then maternal death rates, infant deaths, and other things we have been correcting were also more rampant. Since societies have been established and standards have been set on marriage, sexual, and childbearing ages, the instincts have had to be suppressed. The thing about suppression, though, is that it is certainly not a permanent containment method. The problem doesn't go away, ever. Either it will leak out of containment, or explode out. Take your pick of which is happening right now :evil:

Slipnish
June 28th, 2004, 12:52 PM
Okay, so I know it's a little wordy...My question to all of you is this : Is teen pregnacy really an "epidemic" in this country? If so, why, and how did it happen?

I think epidemic might be a bit of an overstatement, but it certainly is a problem. The difficulty with all youth is the exact sentiment you expressed in your later post. It has to do with consequences, instant gratification (smirk), and the feeling of invulnerability that comes with just being young.

I think we all can look back at the myriad directions and instructions given to us by our parents, and remember at least one or two, or several for that matter epiphanies that happened when we reached adulthood.

Remember looking back and going, "Well. My parents were right after all."

Its just like that. As humans, and being only one step up that evolutionary ladder, we learn MOSTLY from experience.

The difficulty in pregnancy, like driving fast and taking drugs, you often only get to make one mistake.

The consequences for all of those behaviors are very evident. Parents always tell their children they shouldn't do those things. But until the actual experience rests somewhere in that frantically searching for meaning in life, OMG I hate Becky, He is so cute, WoW! Did you see the latest MMORPG at Best Buy, head, they simply can't understand it.

It isn't REAL.

Until its often too late....

mustang5
June 28th, 2004, 01:11 PM
I firmly believe that we have taken our Freedom demands to the level that has excluded Morality. The more that Religion is cut from society the more problems were going to have. There is a gross misinterpretation about the first amendment. Note 1st amendment, not 2nd. The separation of Church and state. This amendment was not written to keep religion out of the state, it was written to protect religion from Judicial Tyranny. If a teen is Mature enough to have the baby then it's not a problem. If the teen is Mature enough to let the baby be adopted, then it's not a problem. Just an inconvenience for a few months. Kid grow up at a disadvantage because TV today is nothing like it was 20 years ago. It's no wonder it's becoming an epidemic. I think a better term than Epidemic, would be Inevitible.

Meng Bomin
June 28th, 2004, 01:41 PM
I think that if teens could see that it could happen to them, there would be less teen pregnancies. While I think that previous posters are right in saying that it wasn't a problem in the past, it is a problem now. Our lifespans are longer and our mental growth has been stretched by that. However, physical growth and desires have remained the same. That's our problem, but the solution is complicated. We can't make a massive change in our way of life, because that would cause chaos and disorder. That is why we need to deal with teen pregnancies here and now.

Would it help if there were mandatory health classes at every grade level that strongly stressed the dangers of having sex while teens and empasized that pregnancy and STD's can happen to anyone? Maybe, but I think that that would come off as authoritarian thus uncool to a large amount of rebelious teens, who may disregard it. The real problem is reaching these teens, and as I am not nor have been in the past one of them, I'm not sure exactly how this can be done.



I firmly believe that we have taken our Freedom demands to the level that has excluded Morality. The more that Religion is cut from society the more problems were going to have.
I don't think that this is necessarily true. If Religious law were imposed on this country, I think that the problems would not be openly visible, but they would still be there.

Slipnish
June 28th, 2004, 05:08 PM
I firmly believe that we have taken our Freedom demands to the level that has excluded Morality. The more that Religion is cut from society the more problems were going to have. There is a gross misinterpretation about the first amendment. Note 1st amendment, not 2nd. The separation of Church and state. This amendment was not written to keep religion out of the state, it was written to protect religion from Judicial Tyranny. If a teen is Mature enough to have the baby then it's not a problem. If the teen is Mature enough to let the baby be adopted, then it's not a problem. Just an inconvenience for a few months. Kid grow up at a disadvantage because TV today is nothing like it was 20 years ago. It's no wonder it's becoming an epidemic. I think a better term than Epidemic, would be Inevitible.

I see that thought a lot Mustang, but the stats don't hold up to it. I have seen some stats that most assuredly do not equate religion, or church attendance with lowered crime rates.

For the record, church attendance has been going down for the last 10 yrs or so, and so have crime rates, or so I have heard...

http://www.felicity.com.au/personal_extra.htm

http://www.shsu.edu/~pin_www/T@S/2000/CrimeDown.html

Sam
June 29th, 2004, 04:28 AM
I agree with you mustang5. Our religion used to give us guidelines to follow. We may have still done wrong but we knew we were wrong. We don't have those guidelines anymore. We too easily accept a wrong as being OK. We don't have firm guidelines to follow anymore. Our kids are suffering because what used to be wrong is right in their eyes. It's gotten to be whatever makes us happy at the moment. If it feels good it must be good.

We as parents can't be afraid to say no to our kids. We tell our kids all the time to say no to drugs. Whether this message works or not, we still say it. How many of us tell our kids to say no to sex?

mustang5
June 29th, 2004, 07:48 AM
Amen Sam.

To Slipnish: I don't want to have religious Laws. I just want to stop seeing Godless people trying to take it out of society. Nobody wants to shove Religion down somebodys throat. We just want the opportunity to show it and try to explain to those that are lost. That is what a christian is supposed to do. After he does it, he can dust his feet and move on. So church attendance is going down and so are crime rates. Are you saying God is responsible for the Crime rate?

Dionysus
June 29th, 2004, 08:24 AM
To Slipnish: I don't want to have religious Laws. I just want to stop seeing Godless people trying to take it out of society.

What's wrong with being Godless? :lol:


Nobody wants to shove Religion down somebodys throat.We just want the opportunity to show it and try to explain to those that are lost.

And I would like the opportunity to impose my views on you and yours.


That is what a christian is supposed to do. After he does it, he can dust his feet and move on.

Suuuuure....


So church attendance is going down and so are crime rates. Are you saying God is responsible for the Crime rate?

No. He's saying one has nothing to do with the other.

HappyLady
June 29th, 2004, 09:17 AM
I think one fundamental reason that has not yet been mentioned as to why teen pregnancy has risen so dramatically is because teenagers are treated like "little adults" in society on one hand, but also still coddled like "little children" on the other hand.

If we look at the family structure over the last 100 years, families used to consist of 1 mom, 1 dad, and kids. Mom was home to take care of the kids, Dad was out making money. Mom was nurturing, Dad was disciplining. Older kids were responsible for helping out around the house, helping out with the little kids, etc...but ultimately in a helping role where they learn responsibility and what it means to be an adult. Sex was not promoted as acceptable for the 15 yr old 40 to 50 years ago. It wasn't portrayed as acceptable on TV, in magazines, or in the home.

While there may have been some problems with that structure, such as Dad maybe being somewhat alienated from the family, and Mom not being able to focus on her career until later in life or sometimes never, and teenagers being largely naive for the most part, it was a working model.

Ultimately, there was a shift. In the demise of the traditional family structure, the older kids frequently become the primary responsible party for the younger kids while mom and/or dad work. Quite a big load for a kid. Sex is portrayed as very acceptable among teenagers through the media...just like for 'grown-ups.' And there is a big lack of parental supervision. Put in one cup of failing family structure, one cup sex portrayed everywhere you turn, one cup of kids left on their own to raise themselves, and you've got children who are not biologically emotionally mature enough acting like little adults.

By having sex portrayed as acceptable, and no solid family structure, you have children being forced to be "little adults." By having little parental supervision, and parents failing to raise their children to know what responsibility in life is all about, you have teenagers stuck in being "little children."

And lastly, we need to throw into the mix the emphasis in this society on impulsivity and what makes us happy FOR THE MOMENT. We no longer know what delayed gratification is. Teens no longer understand what respsonsibility really is as an adult because all they have is a distorted picture of it largely because of the way adults act.

I think teenagers for the most part are stuck in the "magical thinking" phase of childhood a lot longer than they used to be. "It won't happen to me," is the catch phrase. The only way they really learn is when it does happen to them.

I think in order to solve the problem, we need to promote a solid family structure from a very young age. Rather than promoting "acceptance" of single-parent families, and "acceptance" of the American way, we need to educate children on the importance of a solid family structure, the *real* responsibilities of adulthood, and the *real* responsibility of sex. I'm talking starting young, having a class in school each year, and instilling fear in children in small doses all throughout their school years. ;)

To sum it up, when I was 17, I used to drive as fast as my piece of crap car would go everywhere I went. I got a ticket. Woopie doo...that's just money. Then, I hit a mountain wearing no seatbelt going about 80 mph one day. I could no longer use the catch phrase, "It won't happen to me..." because it did happen to me. Somehow, we have to make kids aware that anyone can hit a mountain, especially those who think it can't happen to them, BEFORE they get into that frame of mind. I think we need to send out the message before adolescence and continue sending it until they get it.

mustang5
June 29th, 2004, 09:54 AM
What's wrong with being Godless? :lol: .
Plenty. You have no moral fiber to structure your life. Only your own.



And I would like the opportunity to impose my views on you and yours.. You know I'm ready to listen. But you have got to try and get past the one liner witty statements that lend no basis to the discussion.





Suuuuure.....
Your right here. I have a hard time giving up on people I care about.


No. He's saying one has nothing to do with the other. That's not what I gathered. I took it as a unfounded mock on church stats that were pulled out of his/her as#.

HappyLady
June 29th, 2004, 10:23 AM
You have no moral fiber to structure your life. Only your own.

I'm sure GP will do a good job of handling this on his own, but I'm a busybody so I'm going to interject. Moral norms are not derived from religious principles alone. From a naturalistic perspective, a society will develop morals to keep the society thriving, such as respecting life, respecting others, not stealing each other's stuff, having monogomous relationships and not sleeping with each other's husbands and wives. Pretty much like the Ten Commandments...but without a belief in deity. While it may be a moral fiber devoid of God, it is still a moral fiber that intertwines in harmony with religious principles.

Dionysus
June 29th, 2004, 10:53 AM
Plenty. You have no moral fiber to structure your life. Only your own.

This is off-topic so I'll start a new thread.


That's not what I gathered. I took it as a unfounded mock on church stats that were pulled out of his/her as#.

Except that he listed his sources....

Sam
June 29th, 2004, 05:33 PM
Happy Lady, I agree with you that we treat teens like little adults on the one hand and children on the other. I agree that we need to be there for them early on. The traditional roles of the mother and father have changed. What do you think enabled this to happen?

HappyLady
June 29th, 2004, 06:17 PM
The traditional roles of the mother and father have changed. What do you think enabled this to happen?

If I had the energy to go looking, I could just copy and paste what I wrote in the Contraception and Society thread about the American Dream. I believe it is what has lead to demise of the traditional family structure. Back in The Depression, people worked their butts off for next to nothing. That diligence was instilled, though. So, when money became abundant again shortly after the depression, people were still working their butts off AND seeing the fruits of their labor. We became a quite wealthy nation. See my signature at the bottom?

Somewhere in the late 1940's into the 1950's, the standards of society became motivated by greed. We shifted into a materialistic society. When you make money THE number one in your life, everything outside that number one is bound to fall apart.

Once money became people's motivation, and credit became like money that DOES grow on trees, we became an incredibly impulsive society. Why save when you can buy on credit? And even better, why wait for ANYTHING when you can have it ALL right now! Even further, why WORK for things, when credit can buy what you don't have money for?

Once we became an impulsive nation motivated by money above all else, everything that happened after that point has just been the American Dream spinning out of control into the nightmare it really is.

As it relates to teen pregnancy and the family structure, I think three things in particular happened. In order to get more money, women were forced, (and had the desire since the money seed was planted) to join the workforce with the same vigor that men were already involved in it. While women being equal to men in careers has advantages and perks for society, children's needs are being forgotten and we need to re-balance the family so that one parent can remain at home with children.

In this idea of family and children, we also have been making leaps and bounds in the field of psychology. We stopped promoting "discipline" and began promoting "positive parenting" instead. We treat our 4 yr olds like little adults by giving them a lot of say in most of their daily decisions. While it is wonderful to give children choices and a sense of empowerment and confidence, I believe we have gone overboard in letting these little adults run the parents' lives. I think the fact that parents are absent so much of the time just perpetuates our lack of desire to discipline and shape our children into useful adults. With the impulsive natures we have developed, we want to make our children happy RIGHT NOW, and don't really take into consideration how it will affect them later.

The last thing was how quickly society became sexualized. I think sometimes people blame the women's movement for this, but I think it was moreso the "Hippies" that led the sexual revolution. "Peace, Love, and Happiness" really meant, "Piece, Lust, and Happiness." It seems very quickly we jumped from the prudish 50's to the "anything goes" 70's. The 80's and 90's have just been all of this phenomena playing itself out.

Now, we find ourselves in the new millenium scratching our heads trying to figure out how we got here. I think it's about time we stop putting band-aids on all the boo-boos and get back to some fundamental family values.

Sam
July 1st, 2004, 04:32 AM
In order to get more money, women were forced, (and had the desire since the money seed was planted) to join the workforce with the same vigor that men were already involved in it.


What ENABLED women to be able to go out in the work force to satisfy their greed? I agree with everything you said,HL. I just don't think you have touched on the main ingredient that helped all of which you talked about to happen.

FruitandNut
July 24th, 2004, 10:32 AM
A morally bankrupt society breeds morally bankrupt and confused children. Children need social and ethical maps and compasses to help guide them through life, without them they bump into obstacles and get lost.