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View Full Version : Did Christians Successfully Answer The Question of Non-belief?



sonofnietzsche
June 19th, 2010, 05:19 PM
Christianity has many denominations. As such, it is somewhat difficult to develop an argument which decimates every ilk of Christianity.

That said, the following question seems to have successfully stumped ODN Christians: If the Christian God actually exists, then why are there so many non-believers?

I believe every attempt from Christians has failed. Agree? Disagree? Cast your vote in the poll. If you agree, simply select "no." If you disagree, then select which answer you believe actually succeeded.

I'll provide a brief review of the thread.

Free Will

The appeal to free will goes like this: "God does not convince non-believers with miracles, because this would violate the free will of non-believers."

Ironically, the most popular answer was the weakest. In the New Testament (the books of Hebrews and Acts), God clearly uses miracles to convince people. I suspect Christians were simply unaware of these passages. Eventually, they conceded the point.

Yasashiku

Like many, I believe Yasashiku has proposed some of the most interesting answers to the OP. However, I don't think they solve them problem, and I wonder how other Christians would perceive his opinions. See pages 9 - 12.

KingOfTheEast

KOTE made several objections. When refuted by TheGreatKahn, Allocutus and myself, he fell silent. See posts 94, 95, 96, 103, 105, and 107.

Evensaul

Like KOTE, Evensaul made numerous objections. On some points, he merely conceded. On most of them, he merely fell silent. See post #167 for a summary.

Nate895

Nate offered a different meaning of one of the verses I cited. When I refuted his point by referring to the original text, he fell silent.

Lukecash

Last, and most certainly least, we have Lukecash's proposal.

God allegedly wants everyone to know the truth; he wants everyone to believe.

Lukecash proposed that God actually wants non-belief to exist, for the sake of contrast. Obviously, this directly contradicts God's above-mentioned desire.

See the last two pages of the thread.

sonofnietzsche
August 12th, 2010, 05:02 AM
Looks like someone voted for the appeal to free will. Is this a joke? Anyone want to man up and defend that vote?

Lukecash12
August 12th, 2010, 12:32 PM
Looks like someone voted for the appeal to free will. Is this a joke? Anyone want to man up and defend that vote?

Just for kicks :coolsmiley:

sonofnietzsche
August 12th, 2010, 08:20 PM
Just for kicks :coolsmiley:

Somehow, I knew it was you. :lol:

sonofnietzsche
August 19th, 2010, 07:53 AM
So, two votes for the appeal to free will now. Of course, this voter didn't bother to defend his vote or respond to any challenges.

Lukecash12
September 4th, 2010, 05:25 PM
Actually, I'm leaning towards free will again. There have been some decent cases made for it recently. Why not open up a slot in the polls for Apok's arguments, and see how they have been received?

KingOfTheEast
September 4th, 2010, 06:02 PM
The creation of this thread was far too premature considering the thread is still ongoing and also considering that Christians have a new-found interest in the thread. I am, however, flattered that you included my name, even if I didn't get any votes...yet :coolsmiley:

Apokalupsis
September 4th, 2010, 07:51 PM
At the time though, the thread seemed dead. There was indeed a lack of activity in many threads, by the Christian community.

There's been a "revival" of sorts however, and it would seem that the atheist community has taken a backseat in both activity and quality of argumentation (as evidenced by atheists conceding in a number of threads and Christians...not atheists, having the last word). It's too early to tell whether the energized Christian community will last for the long haul though, as I said above, it's only been a couple weeks.

As for this thread however...it definitely has proven to be premature for a type of a closing analysis thread. It's not only still going on...but going on strong. Consequently, the options available in the poll are no longer accurate.

verrsili
September 4th, 2010, 09:40 PM
Looks like someone voted for the appeal to free will. Is this a joke? Anyone want to man up and defend that vote?

Free will - The power of making free choices unconstrained by external agencies.
http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=free+will&o2=&o0=1&o7=&o5=&o1=1&o6=&o4=&o3=&h=

You argued that because God performed miracles earlier to prove his existence, it violated our free will. The miracles "constrained" us you could say. However if God had not performed these miracles then the absence of performing them would also "constrain" us. Either way it could be intrepreted that it violated our free will, therefore, the opposite could also be intrepreted from both scenarios. (sorry for bad english)

sonofnietzsche
September 5th, 2010, 09:04 AM
The creation of this thread was far too premature considering the thread is still ongoing and also considering that Christians have a new-found interest in the thread. I am, however, flattered that you included my name, even if I didn't get any votes...yet :coolsmiley:

At the time this thread was created, Christians had either conceded or dropped off the face of the planet. You hadn't posted for hundreds of days.


LukeCash

Actually, I'm leaning towards free will again. There have been some decent cases made for it recently.

Which ones?

---------- Post added at 11:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 AM ----------


At the time though, the thread seemed dead. There was indeed a lack of activity in many threads, by the Christian community.

There's been a "revival" of sorts however, and it would seem that the atheist community has taken a backseat in both activity and quality of argumentation (as evidenced by atheists conceding in a number of threads and Christians...not atheists, having the last word). It's too early to tell whether the energized Christian community will last for the long haul though, as I said above, it's only been a couple weeks.

As for this thread however...it definitely has proven to be premature for a type of a closing analysis thread. It's not only still going on...but going on strong. Consequently, the options available in the poll are no longer accurate.

I've made similar observations about the atheist and Unapologist movement. Our most formidable debaters are Allocutus, Trendem, DonAthos, RogueCardinal, Dionysus, TheGreatKahn, GoldPheonix and myself. Don, Dio and Rogue, to my knowledge, are completely inactive at the moment. Allo and Kahn are nowhere near their previous level of posting. I haven't seen GP and Trendem too active in the religious forums. As for me, I have less than 300 posts in my two years here. This is fitting, perhaps, inasmuch as my battle on ODN could now be a scene from the film 300.

Methinks Apok's return has - dare I say it - "resurrected" ODN's Christian community. He and Talthas alone would be a devastatingly formidable tandem, and the resurgence of others has exacerbated the problem. Though, I say "problem" with my tongue in my cheek (er... interlocked between my fingers...), because I'm quite glad it happened.

Bring it on, Christians. :cool:

Apokalupsis
September 5th, 2010, 11:00 AM
I recognize that at the time some Christians have become more active, some atheists have become less so. Obviously, whenever this happens for any competing groups, there will be a noticeable shift in momentum.

I don't expect this turn to be permanent, but it is surprising to see since it is a rarity. We'll see how long it lasts. Also, I don't expect my current activity level to be sustained. I just have some extra time on my hands right now so I'm choosing to spend that time at ODN since it's been a while that I have. Hopefully, during this time we'll bring in some interest of new Christian members to help solidify the Christian base at ODN.

Lukecash12
September 7th, 2010, 10:31 AM
I was referring to Apok's case, Talthas' points along with his on freewill, and more recently Hyde's arguments.

Sigfried
September 7th, 2010, 05:20 PM
Can we add my new, "God likes the game" argument? It could simply be an extension of free will since the notion of free will is the "game" which God seems to like.

It basically states that God likes the Game of choosing salvation based on limited evidence to reveal willing worship more than God wants all people to be saved, even though he wants both. When they come into conflict the game wins as a higher ideal.

sonofnietzsche
September 8th, 2010, 10:10 AM
Can we add my new, "God likes the game" argument? It could simply be an extension of free will since the notion of free will is the "game" which God seems to like.

It basically states that God likes the Game of choosing salvation based on limited evidence to reveal willing worship more than God wants all people to be saved, even though he wants both. When they come into conflict the game wins as a higher ideal.

Cool. I was planning on creating a new thread, which includes all of the updated forms of the argument. I suspect that won't be for quite some time, though, considering how many arguments are floating around in there at the moment.

yasashiku
September 19th, 2010, 09:35 AM
Ah, this is where you've all gone... I was thoroughly enjoying the thread, but since I didn't get a response for a long time (and you'd all moved on to other topics) I didn't feel like completely re-hijacking it back to my tack.


Like many, I believe Yasashiku has proposed some of the most interesting answers to the OP. However, I don't think they solve them problem, and I wonder how other Christians would perceive his opinions. See pages 9 - 12.
Thanks, man :afro:

I did invite you back to my answer if you were still interested, but, as you've had a lot of responses from a lot of different people, I don't blame you for not getting back to me. I, of course, think they do solve the problem, but I'm certainly open to further discussion. Would it help if I started a separate thread dedicated specifically to my answer to keep things tidy?

Lukecash12
September 20th, 2010, 08:03 PM
Can we add my new, "God likes the game" argument? It could simply be an extension of free will since the notion of free will is the "game" which God seems to like.

Seeing as I've heavily contested over that kind of topic a few times here, I'd love to do a formal debate with you on it. If Sigfried would like to do that with me, are there any people here who would consider judging said debate?

Sigfried
September 21st, 2010, 12:58 AM
Seeing as I've heavily contested over that kind of topic a few times here, I'd love to do a formal debate with you on it. If Sigfried would like to do that with me, are there any people here who would consider judging said debate?

That would be great, I haven't done one and I've been itching to.

Were you looking for a debate where you refute my claim that "God likes the game" or one where we have competing answers to the challenge of Non-Belief and we each support our own and attack the other?

Lukecash12
September 21st, 2010, 07:27 PM
That would be great, I haven't done one and I've been itching to.

Were you looking for a debate where you refute my claim that "God likes the game" or one where we have competing answers to the challenge of Non-Belief and we each support our own and attack the other? I was talking about the "God likes the game" premise, but I would certainly like to participate in one about our own answers for the non-belief conundrum as well.

Which premise would you like to debate on first?

Squatch347
September 22nd, 2010, 05:33 AM
I'd be open to judge if you would like.

Lukecash12
September 22nd, 2010, 01:22 PM
Sure, you think objectively enough, so you would be a decent candidate.

Here's a list of some of the people I would (if the most ideal conditions happened) like to see judging the debate:

Herman.
Squatch.
Prime.
King of the East maybe?
Definitely Dio.
Gonzo would be a good candidate.


I'm not sure who else I'd really like to see up there, aside from Apok (which I doubt he would have the time). Of course, Sigfried probably has somewhat of a different list in mind. Does he have anything to say about this?