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RTShatto
April 20th, 2005, 02:15 AM
Fun With Etymology<o =""></o>

http://www.etymonline.com/<o =""></o>

I have always been fascinated with words and how they came about in our modern language. I was listening to talk radio and there was a guest on George Noori (Coast to Coast A.M. (http://www.coasttocoastam.com/)) tonight who talked about “secret” societies and their use of using words with double/encrypted meanings. These words evolve over time and become a part of everyday language. I’ll try to give a few examples of this.<o =""></o>

Note* The main segment (on the radio) was dedicated to secret societies but this is not what the topic is about here, here we are discussing the historical significance of words.<o =""></o>

Bank – a bank is a part of a river through which currents are controlled. Hence the reason why “Currency” can be found in a “Bank”

Capital Hill – Capitoline Hill, was the highest hill in <st1:city><st1 ="">Rome</st1></st1:city> and carries significance because it was where the <st1:city><st1 ="">Temple</st1></st1:city> of the God Jupiter was located.
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“The Law of The Land” was a phrase used in Maritime England…I cant remember much about that but there was a “Law of The Sea” as well…the guest talked about the court system and how you had to pass the bar…err I cant remember his whole story, but it was very interesting to hear him put these words together and place them in its historical maritime context.<o =""></o>

Do we have any Navy people here who can clarify this for me? (EscraymCroix?) :)<o =""></o>

Also heres another thing he talked about that I found interesting…its about the Pope.<o =""></o>

The word pope originally had to do with the word “Door” or “Gateway” (I cannot confirm this...I think the latin word is supposed to be "portus"...but maybe theres something more to it.) which is where we get the name for his helpers, the “Cardinals” which meant “hinges” of a door. (for support) (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Cardinal&searchmode=none)<o =""></o>

Another interesting thing the guest talked about was the significance of the ancient Phoenician religion and how we still observe some of its customs. Heres a little background, the Phoenicians worshiped Saturn (The lord of the rings), who ordered all women to listen to the gods, which is why women today wear “Ear-Rings”, he also ordered men to marry in his presence (or something like that) which is why married couples wear rings as a symbol of marriage. (I cannot confirm that as well...but its very interesting to hear about).<o =""></o>

Now heres a list of my own words that I have studied.<o =""></o>

Goodbye = God be with ye (I think KB…or CS? told me that one).<o =""></o>

This then leads to all the other common sayings we are all familiar with,<o =""></o>

Adios – go with god (Dionysius)<o =""></o>

Adieu – same thing<o =""></o>

Arrivederci – “a” – to, “ri” again – “veder” to see, “ci” – you – which means “(to) see you again”/ Till we meet again.<o =""></o>

Au revoir – same thing<o =""></o>

Here is something I learned from my father. He is reading a book right now called “The Cousins War” which talks about (from what I understand) the last of the European religious wars which was actually the American War of Independence. In that book, it explains a lot about our founding fathers and it goes into detail about the religious undertones in our government…I can only remember 1 word right now…but ill get back to you on it…later.<o =""></o>

Congress – from the word “congregate/congregation” (first congress meeting took place in a church?...what is Carpenters Hall anyways?)


Ehh.

Feel free to add to what you know or what you think you know about the history of certain words/customs/whatever that is relevant to this.<o =""></o>

RTShatto
April 20th, 2005, 02:19 AM
Some of these words are so blatantly obvious...but what gets to me is how we dont really think about these words in casual conversations.

Like when people use slang to their friends...they can say "that is tight!" but the what the hell are they talking about really? innuendo? hhhmmmm.

FruitandNut
April 20th, 2005, 02:46 AM
'That is tight' probably has a common ancestry with the phrase 'tight arse/ass' (it has come to mean 'mean' or 'uncharitable'), there is also - that captain runs a 'tight ship' which means a well disciplined regime.

You might find the following an interesting site:-
http://www.aldertons.com/

KevinBrowning
April 20th, 2005, 08:48 AM
The word pope originally had to do with the word “Door” or “Gateway” (I cannot confirm this...I think the latin word is supposed to be "portus"...but maybe theres something more to it.) which is where we get the name for his helpers, the “Cardinals” which meant “hinges” of a door. (for support) (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=Cardinal&searchmode=none)<o =""></o>

Never heard of that. I read that "Pope" came from "papa," or "father" in Italian. I do know that the secret meeting when the Cardinals elect the Pope, the Conclave, comes from the Italian "con clave," or "with key," meaning "locked up."

RTShatto
April 20th, 2005, 11:50 AM
Yeah, I know the pope comes from papas but that guy said something about door and I totaly forgot what word he used.

Maybe theres another word other then "portus' which meant door...or maybe he himself got confused with "papas" and "portus" or something.

FruitandNut
April 21st, 2005, 01:40 AM
RTS - Try:-

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/Po/Pope.html
If you scroll down the site, I feel you will think it comprehensive.

I think this might be 'the door' he was referring to:-
http://deserEtnews.com/dn/view/0%2C1249%2C600123306%2c00.HTML


Here's a bit of early advertising in rhymn that was on a wall of a long demolished Public House in Cornwall. It is in Old Cornish Celtic and could possibly be one of the earliest known advertisments for 'beer'. Under it I have put a translation.

Them ill erslea vet-hemi!
Llt hew ryme nlow erth eirs-ailth; ema!
Lts ter sle avet-he ki?
Ln, forad-ropo; fth ewhi, tesw ana-le ....

The millers leave the mill,
The wherrymen lower their sail,
The maltsters leave the kiln,
For a drop of the White Swan Ale ....

(How language changes over the years!) The Cornish language that is currently spoken almost entirely as a second language by a few hundred people can be understood by Breton speakers in Brittany, France. Looking at that more ancient form, it seems that there is a Scandanavian influence.

RTShatto
April 21st, 2005, 11:07 PM
I can understand the first 2 lines of that Rhymn, but the last 2 are illegible :(

Just out of curiosity, how many unique dialects exist in the Great Britain?

RTShatto
April 21st, 2005, 11:41 PM
I dont want to go too far off topic, but that same program (coast to coast) had a guest on about a month ago who was talking about William Shakespear, and that the pictures we see of Shakespear are not really the Author Shakespear but another person that he used for fear of being persecuted.

The guest (I cant remember his name) said that the real Shakespear was actualy a member of the English monarchy (Duke of something...), and that he worked in secret because poetry was "substandard" for royalty to engage in at that time in history.

Too bad the search feature on that site is bad...I cant find any information about the guest who talked about that.

FruitandNut
April 22nd, 2005, 12:49 AM
Here are some useful sites in regard to dialects:-
http://www.collectbritain.co.uk/personalisation/object.cfm?UID=02SED00C908S47U00004C01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_English


The arguments about the valid authorship of the 'Shakespeare plays' rages on, here are just three good sites:-
http://www.shakespeare-oxford.com/
http://www.sourcetext.com/sourcebook/index.htm
http://shakespeareauthorship.com/#aristocrat
http://www.authorshipstudies.com/who.cfm

Was Shakespeare and Edward De Vere one and the same person, seems to be but one of the stories!

RTShatto
April 22nd, 2005, 02:08 AM
Ok, here is something that is kinda confusing.

England is called "England" because of the "Anglos" so how come its not called "Angloland", my take on it is because of the Latin or...Norman way of saying "Anglo"?

So people use "Eng"...but then how come the English Church is called the "Anglican" church and not the "Eng..." nevermind LoL..im just getting a headache trying to figure this one out. >_<

FruitandNut
April 22nd, 2005, 02:33 AM
England = Engla-lond = Land of the Angles.
Albion = Pliny the Elder and Ptolomy's references in 1st. century to the White (Latin=Alba) Cliffs of Dover.

This is a good site to look at English origins.
http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search?fr=slv1.&p=Albion%2C+Angle+Land%2c+England

Iluvatar
April 24th, 2005, 06:58 AM
Bank – a bank is a part of a river through which currents are controlled. Hence the reason why “Currency” can be found in a “Bank”
Are you certain? I was under the impression that it was "Bank" because a river bank is something that builds up over time.

FruitandNut
April 24th, 2005, 08:33 AM
A bank, as in slope or (river)bank, in Old English is 'sted' (the 'd' being one of those rounded types) or 'ofer' (which I suspect links to Offa and Offa's Dyke). A 'bank' is also a small 'hill'.

Here are two more fun sites of etymological interest.

http://www.krysstal.com/wordname.html
http://www.thenortheast.fsnet.co.uk/GeordieDictionary.htm

RTShatto
April 24th, 2005, 12:52 PM
Im not certain Iluvatar, that guy was speaking at the speed of sound or something, he kept mentioning things in a fast pace so I couldnt memorize everything he was saying.

Montalban
April 26th, 2005, 03:44 AM
Ok, here is something that is kinda confusing.

England is called "England" because of the "Anglos" so how come its not called "Angloland", my take on it is because of the Latin or...Norman way of saying "Anglo"?

So people use "Eng"...but then how come the English Church is called the "Anglican" church and not the "Eng..." nevermind LoL..im just getting a headache trying to figure this one out. >_<

There's an area of England called East Anglia. The Saxons foundered several kingdoms of West Saxons (Wessex), South Saxons (Sussex), Middle Saxons (Middlesex), and East Saxons (Essex) (no north saxons?). The Jutes kingdom was called Kent, which derives from the earlier Celtic people Kanti.

The Normans themselves came from the north; north men - norman. The most northerly district of mainland Scotland is called Sutherland (meaning south land) because to the north men, it was south of them!

If you think that's odd, the (Germanic) Anglo-Saxon tribes invaded Britain, drove the original British (a celtic people) into the western parts of the island. The Britons in one of these Germaic tribes called "Welsh" meaning 'stranger'. Thus the original inhabitants are called 'strangers'!

The 'Welsh' name for Wales is Cymru. Thus Wales is an English word for Cymru

The Greeks called one group of invaders "Keltoi" hence the word "Celt". It means 'barbarian'. The Romans called this group of people "Galli" or Gaelic, which also has 'barbarian' over-tones.

The Romans called a Celtic tribe of Hibernia (now Ireland) "Scoti" meaning 'bandit'. Later these Scoti invaded the northern part of Britain, conqueored it, and it is now called Scotland. (Land of Bandits???)


Well before the age of exploration, people assumed that there was a giant land in the southern part of the globe, to balance the land mass in the north. They called this "Terra Australis Incognita" (latin for "Unknown Southern Land"). It is from Australis that the word "Australia" comes from. So we are all 'southerners'.

The Dutch explorer Abel Tasman discovered an island that he named after a patron; Anthony Van Diemen. Van Diemen's Land got a bad reputation as a horrible place for convicts so they changed the name to Tasmania. Tasman also discovered a group of islands he named after a place in Holland; Zeeland, hence New Zealand. Zeeland itself means 'Sea Land".

But personally, for me the most annoying placename on earth is a little train station in the Blue Mountains. It's called "Valley Heights" Is it in the valley? No, it's the heights, so what's the valley got to do... nevermind, it just gets my blood boiling.

RTShatto
April 26th, 2005, 08:24 PM
Sometimes its hard to destinguish whcih post's deserve recognition in the form of reps points, but your post is both funny and informative. I'll give you one to FNut. :)

Nosex and Sutherland are classics!

Montalban
April 27th, 2005, 12:33 AM
Sometimes its hard to destinguish whcih post's deserve recognition in the form of reps points, but your post is both funny and informative. I'll give you one to FNut. :)

Nosex and Sutherland are classics!

I remember reading (this is from the 80s such is my steel-trap memory for the odd :) ) about this Englishman, a public school teacher. He went away for a short break on the continent, and returned as a 'woman' having had some operation. He surprised his fellow staffers, and students alike. But the truly odd thing was that this was in the county of Middlesex!

What's the etymology of etymology. I always mix it up with the study of insects.

RTShatto
April 27th, 2005, 12:47 AM
Isnt the study of insects "Entimology"? :)

Oooooh its entomology.

FruitandNut
April 27th, 2005, 05:10 AM
Monty, when a Highland regiment was encountered by the Japanese during the war, they thought the kilts were skirts, and that it was the (gay)Middlesex regiment that opposed them - oooh boy, how wrong they were!!!!!! :evil:

Montalban
June 11th, 2005, 04:09 AM
Monty, when a Highland regiment was encountered by the Japanese during the war, they thought the kilts were skirts, and that it was the (gay)Middlesex regiment that opposed them - oooh boy, how wrong they were!

Those Scots better not discuss geography.

The word "Ben" in Scotland (from the Gaelic) means "Mountain" as in Ben Nevis.

In Japanese it means 'excreta' (see http://linear.mv.com/cgi-bin/j-e/dosearch?H=PS&L=J&WC=none&fg=red&S=26&L=J&T=ben&I=on&IK=on). Highest point in Scotland; Excreta Nevis.