"true seers:More than Harry's Hocus Pocus?"

[xB3ngALidiVaX]

Julius Caesar was warned by a seer that he would die in "the ides of march". later he actually did die march 15. does that mean that there are real seers? or is it still only a part of J.K. Rowling's fantasy stories? i need help. any ideas? i'm confused. :wtf:

[HappyLady]

Julius Caesar was warned by a seer that he would die in "the ides of march". later he actually did die march 15. does that mean that there are real seers? or is it still only a part of J.K. Rowling's fantasy stories? i need help. any ideas? i'm confused. :wtf:

What exactly do you need help with? Are you questioning whether there are true psychics or are you wondering if there is validity to the Caesar story as in that it really happened that way?

You're not the only one who's confused. hehehe. (I'm like that most of the time. :insane: )

[Iluvatar]

Julius Caesar was warned by a seer that he would die in "the ides of march". later he actually did die march 15. does that mean that there are real seers? or is it still only a part of J.K. Rowling's fantasy stories? i need help. any ideas? i'm confused.
The problem with predicting the future is that those who claim to do it re often vague, or may simply be lucky on a few occasions. Furthermore, a great many of their predictions are open to interpretation by the listener. It is this sort of unintentional bias and randomness that scientific testing is designed to eliminate. Scientific testing has found no reliable psychic, as far as I have heard. Everyone who claims to have done it has been disproved through controlled tests, to the best of my knowledge. Thus, it seems to me that there are no "true seers" as of now.

[Mr. Hyde]

Julius Caesar was warned by a seer that he would die in "the ides of march". later he actually did die march 15. does that mean that there are real seers? or is it still only a part of J.K. Rowling's fantasy stories? i need help. any ideas? i'm confused. :wtf:
I thought that was just in the Play Julius Caesar.

[FruitandNut]

Hydey Is right, the soothsayer bit was Shakespearean 'dramatic effect'.

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Here is an assessment of ESP from a professor of psychology:

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[HappyLady]

Here is an assessment of ESP from a professor of psychology:

The article was a little biased, lumping psychics into the same group as people who claim that miniature people live inside sperm cells. It leaned toward making psychics sound like wackos.

I do agree that there needs to be empirical data in order to support the theory that psychic ability exists. That doesn't make those who claim to be psychic wackos though. I was surprised to see so many "misses" in the field of research. As someone who is in the process of making an honest living doing just this, I am wondering why there is not any supportive empirical data. :dunno:

I think one thing is misleading is that the only requirement for proving psychic ability is the repetition. The article claimed that psychics made amazing observations, knowing the contents of letters, influencing the roll of a dice, but that it just couldn't be repeated over and over again. They act like those observations mean nothing at all.

One part of the article I especially disagreed with as far as skepticism goes is this:


If ESP existed, then surely someone out there could, when feeling the psychic spirit stirring, occasionally pick winning lottery numbers or blackjack outcomes (becoming fabulously wealthy or generous). If someone—anyone—out there has accurate spontaneous premonitions, why did she or he not (for the sake of charity if not out of greed) predict the outcome of 2002's $331 million Big Game jackpot?

Why should they? Whether for greed or charity, why should a psychic predict such things? I can't see the relevence as to how this disproves psychic ability. Just because a psychic can see some things does not mean they can see everything. Psychics are human, too. In my experience, you just tell people what you see, hope that it helps them, and then go on about your day. Psychics are usually not able to meddle in their own lives. I don't know why this is. I sure wish I could sometimes.

I find these debates frustrating, and I'm just here to learn to debate it without getting frustrated. I only have anecdotal evidence, and while its pretty convincing to many, ultimately, it just doesn't mean much.

[FruitandNut]

HL - I personally believe that there are a few people who seem to have predicted things, but so far there is nothing that appears to stand up to the rigours of scientific testing.

All I was doing was passing on that 'fact'.

The problem with 'one off' situations is that stats. can claim they are 'random' hits.

During the Cold War the US and the USSR led the world in spending huge amounts of money on ESP research, with very little return for all their efforts.

[Slipnish]

Uhm...for the record. How is the Ides of March story related to Harry Potter?

[Mr. Hyde]

Uhm...for the record. How is the Ides of March story related to Harry Potter?
It relates to a soothsayer, or pyschic. In Prisoner of Azkaban, Potter takes a Divination class guided by Professor Trelawney, who is, despite McGonnigal's attitude towards her AND the subject, a psychic.


Why should they?

To get a TON of money!!! If I were psychic, I'd be betting on every football game, dog race, in every casino with poker, and lottery as soon as I predicted it.

[HappyLady]

To get a TON of money!!! If I were psychic, I'd be betting on every football game, dog race, in every casino with poker, and lottery as soon as I predicted it.

Well, if a psychic is truly in tune with where their 'power' comes from, they would see $$ as frivolous for the most part. Most experience I have, a psychic has difficulty discerning psychic information that pertains directly to their lives. I'm not sure why that is.

Anyway, I view it as being a misuse of power. It would be immoral for me to ask for lottery numbers. I can't speak for every psychic, but either way, it's a lame argument on behalf of the skeptics.

[Mr. Hyde]

Anyway, I view it as being a misuse of power. It would be immoral for me to ask for lottery numbers. I can't speak for every psychic, but either way, it's a lame argument on behalf of the skeptics.
Yeah it's a lame argument for skeptics to use, but it's not entirely without foundation. Remember the Geisha(sp?) ring in one of Plato's dialogues? The ring allegedly made you invisible. According to Socrates(I think), in the dialogue, a virtuous man would not use the ring for evil. But the argument was also posed that, (again I believe by Socrates) that few if any are virtuous people and so, given the power to do evil or act selfishly without fear of reprisal, a man WOULD act in an evil manner to benefit his own ends.

There's no reason to believe that Psychics are any more righteous than anyone else. So there is SOME merit to it. But for the sake of clarification, if someone says, "Well why aren't they gambling or winning all this money then?" I'll agree that person is pretty much a dullard.

[HappyLady]

But the argument was also posed that, (again I believe by Socrates) that few if any are virtuous people and so, given the power to do evil or act selfishly without fear of reprisal, a man WOULD act in an evil manner to benefit his own ends.

Well, I guess I see that. But in order to buy into that theory, you have to believe that people are inherently evil rather than inherently good. I believe they are inherently good.


There's no reason to believe that Psychics are any more righteous than anyone else.

That's true. Maybe there are some psychics begging their powers that be to give them numbers and they just won't do it. lol. I think it's a perception of objectivity and that there are limits to psychic ability.

[xB3ngALidiVaX]

Hydey Is right, the soothsayer bit was Shakespearean 'dramatic effect'.

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na uh. dats not wat my book sayz...it really happened.
freaky................

[xB3ngALidiVaX]

Uhm...for the record. How is the Ides of March story related to Harry Potter?
duh! the woman-wats her name- who warned harry about the stuff dat waz about 2 happen. his professor.

[Mr. Hyde]

na uh. dats not wat my book sayz...it really happened.
freaky................
What's the book? Who's the author? What are his/her sources?


Well, I guess I see that. But in order to buy into that theory, you have to believe that people are inherently evil rather than inherently good. I believe they are inherently good.
I don't see it that way. The way I see it is: Humans are without exceptional power. By that I mean, we don't have optic lasers (ala Cylcops) or indestructible skeletons and incredible healing factors (wolverine) or invincibility, super human strength and green skin (Hulk). If given that power, You'd want to do some, at least a lot of people would, myself included. Because you'd have that power to do more good than before.

BUT, you also have the power to do more evil. Imagine if bullets couldn't kill you, falls either. There's no motivation NOT to load up on guns and go on a killing spree outside remorse, and not everyone feels bad for waht they do. So, imagine a sociopath with that power. PURE, unbridled, violence and chaos. No guns could kill em. And how do you stop someone you can't get close to because they've got guns and yours go nothing?

Imagine, on the opposite end, an innocent person given that power. The ability to do good without the fear of death from evil. The good that could come from that.

Then imagine the rest of humanity. Neither wholly good or evil. Sometimes we give in, sometimes we don't. That power would tip the scales in defining who we are as a person. Am I evil? Or am I good? Given the power, let's find out. And the argument with the Geisha ring is that, if memory serves, man would, if given the power, ultimately become evil out of arrogance BECAUSE of that power. I daresay, what keeps me skeptical of intentional psychic useage is that aspect. Sure there are psychics or people with extranatural mental ability, but I can't see them controlling it.

[HappyLady]

Sure there are psychics or people with extranatural mental ability, but I can't see them controlling it.

You make good points, Hyde. I guess I wonder, though, if people like that can even acquire psychic ability. I don't necessarily look at it like a "gift", but I do look at it like having the ability to keep a gate to another dimension open. But that dimension is a dimension of light and it is not something that ONE individual really has any control over at all. If someone is compelled to abuse the power, I would guess that they would lose it.

But it's all speculation. Sometimes it's fun. But it isn't really debatable. :dunno:

[Pibs]

XB3 us correct, it was included in the Shakespear play because it was part of the story of Julius.

If it was real or not is debatable, for there were other mythical things in his story including birds flying to Rome to reinact his victories in the sky so that everyone would know etc.

The important point I think with the murder of Ceasar is that is was not the 'coincidence' it first appears. It was a special day and he was led to his death believing there was going to be a ceremony in which he would be crowned king - if crowned you'd expect it to be on a special day. So the odds of him being killed before or after were slim, relatively speaking.

Also the prophecy was fairly well-known, so could even have influenced the timing of the plot.

Think about if, if you were plotting, you'd want him at a certain place at a certain time, preferably inside without bodyguards, preferably with his guard down personally. Also it was planned that all members of the faction would take a hand so that none could be blamed indivudually, so you also need a situation where all would be present. The mock crowning was perfect.

it would be a lot MORE remarkable if the soothsayer had stated he'd slip and break his neck getting out the bath or something and been correct. Predicting that he'd be killed on a special day at a special but highly contentious event wasn't a no-brainer but nor beyond the realms of prediction.

Consider also that there was a plot, it is quite possible he had either heard of the plot or figured it out from clues.

All in all, I see no reason to figure in supernatural prophecy.



P.

[FruitandNut]

Plutarch is said to have mentioned a soothsayer:

According to the wiki -

The date is famous because Julius Caesar was assassinated on the Ides of March, 44 BC. According to the Roman writer Plutarch, Caesar had been warned of the danger but had disregarded the warning:

What is still more extraordinary, many report that a certain soothsayer forewarned him of a great danger which threatened him on the Ides of March, and that when the day was come, as he was going to the senate-house, he called to the soothsayer, and said, laughing, "The Ides of March are come"; to which the soothsayer answered, softly, "Yes; but they are not gone."

A skeptic could claim (since there is no one alive to 'interrogate') that Plutarch was recording some unsubstantiated gossip.

[Pibs]

The prophecy went back further than that Fruity, to do with opening a tomb months earlier, though if the specific date was givien at that time I do not recall.

"Now Caesar's approaching murder was foretold to him by unmistakable signs. A few months before, when the settlers assigned to the colony at Capua by the Julian Law were demolishing some tombs of great antiquity, to build country houses, and plied their work with the greater vigour because as they rummaged about they found a quantity of vases of ancient workmanship, there was discovered in a tomb, which was said to be that of Capys, the founder of Capua, a bronze tablet, inscribed with Greek words and characters to this purport: "Whenever the bones of Capys shall be moved, it will come to pass that a son of Ilium shall be slain at the hands of his kindred, and presently avenged at heavy cost to Italy." And let no one think this tale a myth or a lie, for it is vouched for by Cornelius Balbus, an intimate friend of Caesar. Shortly before his death, as he was told, the herds of horses which he had dedicated to the river Rubicon when he crossed it, and had let loose without a keeper, stubbornly refused to graze and wept copiously. Again, when he was offering sacrifice, the soothsayer Spurinna warned him to beware of danger, which would come not later than the Ides of March; and on the day before the Ides of that month a little bird called the king-bird flew into the Hall of Pompey with a sprig of laurel, pursued by others of various kinds from the grove hard by, which tore it to pieces in the hall. In fact the very night before his murder he dreamt now that he was flying above the clouds, and now that he was clasping the hand of Jupiter; and his wife Calpurnia thought that the pediment of their house fell, and that her husband was stabbed in her arms; and on a sudden the door of the room flew open of its own accord.

Both for these reasons and because of poor health he hesitated for a long time whether to stay at home and put off what he had planned to do in the senate; but at last, urged by Decimus Brutus not to disappoint the full meeting which had for some time been waiting for him, he went forth almost at the end of the fifth hour; and when a note revealing the plot was handed him by someone on the way, he put it with others which he held in his left hand, intending to read them presently. Then, after several victims had been slain, and he could get favourable omens, laughing at Spurinna and calling him a false prophet, because the Ides of March were come without bringing him harm; though Spurinna replied that they had of a truth come, but they had not gone. "
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P.

[PerVirtuous]

Plutarch is said to have mentioned a soothsayer:

According to the wiki -

The date is famous because Julius Caesar was assassinated on the Ides of March, 44 BC. According to the Roman writer Plutarch, Caesar had been warned of the danger but had disregarded the warning:

What is still more extraordinary, many report that a certain soothsayer forewarned him of a great danger which threatened him on the Ides of March, and that when the day was come, as he was going to the senate-house, he called to the soothsayer, and said, laughing, "The Ides of March are come"; to which the soothsayer answered, softly, "Yes; but they are not gone."

A skeptic could claim (since there is no one alive to 'interrogate') that Plutarch was recording some unsubstantiated gossip.

Maybe plutarch was psychic and stole it from Shakespeare in advance!:lol:

Seriously, the issue here is simple. All people who are "psychics" are getting their information from "beings in another dimension". They can only get, therefore, that information those beings wish to divulge. I do not think that enlightened beings would go around giving out lottery numbers willy-nilly. Do you?:dunno: I doubt they'd even talk to someone as low minded as me or Hyde.:lol:

That is not to say that their agenda is wholly benevolent either. :P Hence the truckloads of literature about how horrible "psychic abilities" are.

[FruitandNut]

PV - The EuroMillions has rolled over to £50 million if anyone ESPs me the numbers they, or charities, are in for a handsome cut.

[PerVirtuous]

PV - The EuroMillions has rolled over to £50 million if anyone ESPs me the numbers they, or charities, are in for a handsome cut.


OOoohhhmmmmmm.......

[FruitandNut]

Yup PV, I have picked up your vibes, look forward to a result on Friday!

[Quack]

....17.......42.......12.......02.......37....

....Lucky Star 1....4......Lucky Star 2....9....

The Duck has spoken.

(I figured I couldn't lose, if they come up F&N owes me a big cut, if not who cares!)

[PerVirtuous]

The Duck has spoken.

That's fup duck!