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wanxtrmBANNED
February 6th, 2006, 12:29 PM
This is for everyone please give references and names as well as founders, etc.

Also where were they started.
And a small history of each mentioned?

I am not starting with a statement merely wish to guage the knowledge of people on this site.

All are welcome to contribute just use verifiable references where it is possible and as much evidence as is possible to back your claims up thanks.

wanxtrmBANNED
February 6th, 2006, 02:53 PM
Any takers?

:tup:

Snoop
February 6th, 2006, 03:01 PM
I think Gods religion is the oldest.

Besides Hindu, I found this:

The Oldest Religion

What is the oldest Religion?
Some people claim that witchcraft is the oldest religion and has survived through family traditions for thousands of years.
To make such a statement of any religion that has endured since Paleolithic times and in its pure form, seems to be highly improbable. This is not to say it couldn't have happened, but it is not essential for someone who wants to believe. It is more likely that religion by its nature has changed, evolved and integrated over time. That would make the mainstream religions of today amalgamated versions.
Others claim that witchcraft is a revival of the "Old Ways." My question is: What "old ways" would that be?
Man has walked on this earth for longer than before recorded history. Even the archaeologists know very little about the cultural beliefs and practices of early man. We assume that they had some sort of transcendent belief because of the manner in which they buried their dead.
It is not until the agricultural developments around 10,000 BCE that man begins to have a sense of cultural identity. As mankind started living in large groups, it is highly probable that the rudiments of what we, today, call "religion" began to formulate. This is not to say there weren't belief structures before societal man.
Currently, there is no evidence to support that witchcraft existed as a religion during these times; in contrast there is no evidence to support that it didn't. Nevertheless, we lack precise knowledge of their philosophies, practices and beliefs. It is only supposition.
There is another problem. Whatever beliefs, theories and ideas we have of early history are based solely on archaeological finds. Archaeology is not an exact science! With each discovery an archaeologist will fill in the missing pieces of history by "connecting the dots." Each rendition of history will be different and biased according to its author.
Then there is also the issue of terminology and classification. When defining a word or concept, one must take into consideration the subjective nature of the definition. This is particularly true when trying to apply a meaning to an ancient cultural concept from a twentieth century standpoint. What constitutes a religion -in Paleolithic Age, -in the Bronze Age, -or even today? What exactly is witchcraft? What are the elements that define it? Is Sorcery the same as witchcraft? Furthermore, how do we distinguish witchcraft from other religions that may contain these same characteristics?
My conclusion is that witchcraft of today is most likely unrelated to whatever similar social and cultural structure that may have existed in ancient times. Also, the ancientness of a religion should have no reflection on its viability or plausibility. Being the oldest religion does not make it better than other religions, or any "truer" than any other spiritual path.
So; "what is the Oldest Religion?"
Every religion today most likely has some aspect of an ancient belief in its philosophy or practice, but to say that one particular religion is the oldest is naive. The reality is-- we do not know. We have no basis for comparison. Most reference books list Hinduism as the oldest world religion. This is probably because Hinduism has the oldest recorded roots, which lie in Dravidianism. Dravidianism is estimated to have been practiced around 6,000 to 3,000 BCE and as such predates the Sumerian, Egyptian, and Babylonian cultures.
Final thought: If one really thinks about it; isn't agnosticism the oldest spiritual structure? After all--are we born believing in a god, -or anything for that matter?

Notes:
A History of Witchcraft —Jeffrey B. Russell
Drawing Down the Moon — Margot Adler
The Perennial Dictionary of World Religions
Encyclopedia Britannica Magic, Witchcraft, and Religion; An Anthropological Study of the Supernatural —A.C. Lehmann & J. E. Myers.
A History of Pagan Europe —Prudence Jones and Nigel Pennick
The Evolution of a World Religion: Origins of Modern Witchcraft —Ann Moura

http://www.agnosticwitch.catcara.com/oldest-religion.htm

Snoop
February 6th, 2006, 03:27 PM
Voodoo?


<TABLE borderColor=#f1a60a cellPadding=2 align=left border=2><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.swagga.com/gifs/voodoo.jpg</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>Voodoo is a derivative of the world’s oldest known religions which have been around in Africa since the beginning of human civilization. Some conservative estimates these civilizations and religions to be over 10 000 years old. This then identify Voodoo as probably the best example of African syncretism in the Americas. Although its essential wisdom originated in different parts of Africa long before the Europeans started the slave trade, the structure of Voodoo, as we know it today, was born in Haiti during the European colonization of Hispaniola. Ironically, it was the enforced immigration of enslaved African from different ethnic groups that provided the circumstances for the development of Voodoo. European colonists thought that by desolating the ethnic groups, these could not come together as a community. However, in the misery of slavery, the transplanted Africans found in their faith a common thread.
They began to invoke not only their own Gods, but to practice rites other than their own. In this process, they comingled and modified rituals of various ethnic groups. The result of such fusion was that the different religious groups integrated their beliefs, thereby creating a new religion: Voodoo. The word "voodoo" comes from the West African word "vodun," meaning spirit. This Afro-Caribbean religion mixed practices from many African ethnics groups such as the Fon, the Nago, the Ibos, Dahomeans, Congos, Senegalese, Haussars, Caplaous, Mondungues, Mandinge, Angolese, Libyans, Ethiopians, and the Malgaches. <CENTER>
The Essence of Voodoo</CENTER>
Within the voodoo society, there are no accidents. Practitioners believe that nothing and no event has a life of its own. That is why "vous deux", you two, you too. The universe is all one. Each thing affects something else. Scientists know that. Nature knows it. Many spiritualists agree that we are not separate, we all serve as parts of One. So, in essence, what you do unto another, you do unto you, because you ARE the other. Voo doo. View you. We are mirrors of each others souls. God is manifest through the spirits of ancestors who can bring good or harm and must be honored in ceremonies. There is a sacred cycle between the living and the dead. Believers ask for their misery to end. Rituals include prayers, drumming, dancing, singing and animal sacrifice. <TABLE borderColor=#f1a60a cellPadding=2 align=left border=2><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.swagga.com/gifs/vodoodrum.jpg</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The serpent figures heavily in the Voodoo faith. The word Voodoo has been translated as "the snake under whose auspices gather all who share the faith". The high priest and/or priestess of the faith (often called Papa or Maman) are the vehicles for the expression of the serpent's power. The supreme deity is Bon Dieu. There are hundreds of spirits called Loa who control nature, health, wealth and happiness of mortals. The Loa form a pantheon of deities that include Damballah, Ezili, Ogu, Agwe, Legba and others. During Voodoo ceremonies these Loa can possess the bodies of the ceremony participants. Loa appear by "possessing" the faithful, who in turn become the Loa, relaying advice, warnings and desires. Voodoo is an animist faith. That is, objects and natural phenomena are believed to possess holy significance, to possess a soul. Thus the Loa Agwe is the divine presence behind the hurricane.
Music and dance are key elements to Voodoo ceremonies. Ceremonies were often termed by whites "Night Dancing" or "Voodoo Dancing". This dancing is not simply a prelude to sexual frenzy, as it has often been portrayed. The dance is an expression of spirituality, of connection with divinity and the spirit world.
Voodoo is a practical religion, playing an important role in the family and the community. One's ancestors, for instance, are believed to be a part of the world of the spirits, of the Loas, and this is one way that Voodoo serves to root its participants in their own history and tradition. Another practical aspect of Voodoo ceremonies is that participants often come before the priest or priestess to seek advice, spiritual guidance, or help with their problems. The priest or priestess then, through divine aid, offer help such as healing through the use of herbs or medicines (using knowledge that has been passed down within the religion itself), or healing through faith itself as is common in other religions. Voodoo teaches a respect for the natural world.
Unfortunately, the public’s perception of voodoo rites and rituals seems often to point to the evil or malicious side of things. There are healing spells, nature spells, love spells, purification spells, joyous celebration spells. Spirits may be invoked to bring harmony and peace, birth and rebirth, increased abundance of luck, material happiness, renewed health.The fact is, for those who believe it, voodoo is powerful. It is also empowering to the person who practices it. <CENTER>
Voodoo and its fight to survive.</CENTER>
Despite Voodoo's noble status as one of the worlds oldest religions, it has been typically characterized as barbaric, primitive, sexually licentious practice based on superstition and spectacle. Much of this image however, is due to a concerted effort by Europeans, who have a massive fear of anything African, to suppress and distort a legitimate and unique religion that flourished among their enslaved Africans. When slavers brought these peoples across the ocean to the Americas, the African's brought their religion with them. However, since slavery included stripping the slaves of their language, culture, and heritage, this religion had to take some different forms. It had to be practiced in secret, since in some places it was punishable by death, and it had to adapt to the loss of their African languages. In order to survive, Voodoo also adopted many elements of Christianity. When the French who were the colonizers of Haiti, realized that the religion of the Africans was a threat to the colonial system, they prohibited all African religion practices and severely punished the practitioners of Voodoo with imprisonment, lashings and hangings. This religious struggle continued for three centuries, but none of the punishments could extinguished the faith of the Africans. This process of acculturation helped Voodoo to grow under harsh cultural conditions in many areas of the Americas.
Voodoo survives as a legitimate religion in a number of areas of the world, Brazil where it is called "Candomblé" and the English speaking Caribbean where it is called “Obeah”. The Ewe people of southern Togo and southeastern Ghana -- two countries in West Africa -- are devout believers. In most of the United States however, white slavers were successful in stripping slaves of their Voodoo traditions and beliefs. Thus Voodoo is, for most African Americans, yet another part of their heritage that they can only try to re-discover. <CENTER>The Power of Voodoo</CENTER><CENTER><TABLE borderColor=#f1a60a cellPadding=2 align=center border=2><TBODY><TR><TD>http://www.swagga.com/gifs/vdance.jpg</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></CENTER>
The strength that the Africans in Haiti gained from their religion was so strong and powerful, that they were able to survive the cruel persecution of the French rulers against Voodoo. It was in the midst of this struggle that the revolution was conspired. The Voodoo priests consulted their oracle and learned how the political battle would have to be fought in order for them to be victorious. The revolution exploded in 1791 with a Petr— ritual and continued until 1804 when the Haitians finally won independence. Today the system of Voodoo reflects its history. We can see the African ethnic mixture in the names of different rites and in the pantheon of Gods or Loas, which is composed of deities from all parts of Africa.
<CENTER>Haiti's government officially sanctioned voodoo as a religion</CENTER><CENTER></CENTER>
Thursday April 10, 2003.
Haiti's government has officially sanctioned voodoo as a religion, allowing practitioners to begin performing ceremonies from baptisms to marriages with legal authority.
Many who practice voodoo praised the move, but said much remains to be done to make up for centuries of ridicule and persecution in the Caribbean country and abroad.
Voodoo priest Philippe Castera said he hopes the government's decree is more than an effort to win popularity amid economic and political troubles.
"In spite of our contribution to Haitian culture, we are still misunderstood and despised," said Castera, 48.
In an executive decree issued last week, President Jean-Bertrand Aristide invited voodoo adherents and organizations to register with the Ministry of Religious Affairs.
After swearing an oath before a civil judge, practitioners will be able to legally conduct ceremonies such as marriages and baptisms, the decree said.
Aristide, a former Roman Catholic priest, has said he recognizes voodoo as a religion like any other, and a voodoo priestess bestowed a presidential sash on him at his first inauguration in 1991.
"An ancestral religion, voodoo is an essential part of national identity," and its institutions "represent a considerable portion" of Haiti's 8.3 million people, Aristide said in the decree.
Voodoo practitioners believe in a supreme God and spirits who link the human with the divine. The spirits are summoned by offerings that include everything from rum to roosters.
Though permitted by Haiti's 1987 constitution, which recognizes religious equality, many books and films have sensationalized voodoo as black magic based on animal and human sacrifices to summon zombies and evil spirits.

"It will take more than a government decree to undo all that malevolence," Castera said, and suggested that construction of a central voodoo temple would "turn good words into a good deed."

There are no reliable statistics on the number of adherents, but millions in Haiti place faith in voodoo. The religion evolved from West African beliefs and developed further among slaves in the Caribbean who adopted elements of Catholicism.
Voodoo is an inseparable part of Haitian art, literature, music and film. Hymns are played on the radio and voodoo ceremonies are broadcast on television along with Christian services.

But for centuries voodoo has been looked down upon as little more than superstition, and at times has been the victim of ferocious persecution. A campaign led by the Catholic church in the 1940s led to the destruction of temples and sacred objects.
In 1986, following the fall of Jean-Claude Duvalier's dictatorship, hundreds of voodoo practitioners were killed on the pretext that they had been accomplices to Duvalier's abuses.
<TABLE width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD align=left width="50%"><CENTER>Priest at Voodoo Healing Hospital, Togo http://www.swagga.com/priestvoodoo.jpg
At a Voodoo hospital in Togo, this priest acts as an intermediary between a deity and patient. The highest state of being for a Voodoo believer involves complete abandonment to the spirit of a particular deity. When a worshipper enters this ecstatic state, his or her body is possessed by the deity, who then speaks and acts through that individual.
</CENTER></TD><TD width="50%">http://www.swagga.com/vodoodancer.jpg
Once every three years, in a palm grove by the sea, on the border of Ghana and Togo, thousands of Voodoo followers gather for a spectacular seven-day celebration called Kokuzahn, honoring their deity, Flimani Koku, the ancient warrior god. In the past, Koku guaranteed protection in combat and invincibility in battle, but today he provides defense against witchcraft and evil. The festival begins with pulsating Voodoo drum rhythms that send dancers spinning into intense states of possession. In these altered states they exhibit strength and endurance beyond normal capacity, oblivious to what they are doing and who they are. Considered miracles, these superhuman feats defy credibility and demonstrate the extraordinary power of their deity.</TD></TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><CENTER></CENTER>Check out this Great site for further info West African Vodoun: The World's Oldest Religion . . .http://www.mamiwata.com (http://www.mamiwata.com/)

KevinBrowning
February 6th, 2006, 08:21 PM
I must point out again that "organized religion" is a euphemism for "man-made beliefs distorting the truth of a Higher Power". I have never got a good answer to the question "What is a disorganized religion?"

Anyway, my guess would be Zoroastrianism, for oldest monotheistic religion. Oldest religion, period? Impossible to know.

FruitandNut
February 6th, 2006, 11:25 PM
Probably the very earliest 'organised religion' was amongst the hunter-gatherers in Africa. It most probably included imbuing the sun, trees and geographical/geological features with a special spiritual significance and power. Voodoo will have been a development of such early beliefs.

Lost in the mists of time it is likely that we will never know of these earliest 'religions' in any detail. It appears that even the Neanderthals had a sense of spirituality.

Zhavric
February 7th, 2006, 05:17 AM
Hinduism is generally regarded as the world's oldest organized religion. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hinduism.htm)

Mr. Hyde
February 7th, 2006, 12:12 PM
I think Fruit hit it pretty dead on with the idea of Tribal Religions being the origin.

Animism and the Origin of Religion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animism#Animism_and_the_origin_of_religion)

No one knows what the EXACT oldest was/is, but the idea, from my understanding (Animism is the tip of it), is that it originated with Shamanism more than likely around the time of Neanderthal man and Cromagnon man. These are the origins of burial rites, so it almost coincides that the belief in a spiritual something dawned here as well. Beginning with Shamans, then evolving into organised religion.

Nagasena
February 14th, 2006, 11:10 PM
In my mind this thread are about "The Oldest Organized Religion" like:

Maybe God religion are oldest but it's not organized until Jesus era in which have organization and relation between teacher & student..... or......well..... sometin like that.

Maybe Hindu....but also lame in organization.

I would say Buddhism, at 1st Generation of Buddhism there are already Buddhist Organization called "Sangha" or "Community of Disciples" and that's around 530 BCE so before Jesus organization.


But Again !!!!!!

I am looking forward if Confucianism are considered as Religion?????

If Confucianism are religion than this is might be the oldest Organized Religion coz it's almost the same era with Siddharta Gautama (founder of Buddhism)

I am not really sure between this two which one is earlier.

GoldPhoenix
February 15th, 2006, 10:45 AM
From my limited knowledge on anchient history, I would guess Judaism (As far as ones that are still practiced), but most unconventional religions (Like Snoop's Voodoo example, and ones like Ananism) are probably older.

*shrugs*

Nagasena
February 15th, 2006, 03:34 PM
From my limited knowledge on anchient history, I would guess Judaism (As far as ones that are still practiced), but most unconventional religions (Like Snoop's Voodoo example, and ones like Ananism) are probably older.

*shrugs*

In my mind this thread are talking about "Oldest Organized Religion" not "Oldest Religion"

Did Judaism or Voodo etc have organization structure? like Rank of priest, Teacher-Student relationship, classroom, organization meeting, board of officer, etc?

I am talking about Buddhism and Confucianism because that time they already has organization structure.

wanxtrmBANNED
February 15th, 2006, 05:07 PM
Hinduism is generally regarded as the world's oldest organized religion. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/hinduism.htm)

And this would be a correct statement. According to (see following- links) this is the correct answer and what i was looking for.

http://www.inquiry.net/ideals/faiths/hinduism.htm

Yep i googled it however see who wrote it and what works were referenced.

http://hinduwebsite.com/hinduintrod1.htm


And for the record in the vedic verses there are some truely beautiful passages. :tup:

Blackgrass
February 16th, 2006, 01:17 AM
Yes, your right its Hinduism...the ancient roots of Hinduism id Dravidianism 6000-3000 BCE.
Islam being the youngest religion.

wanxtrmBANNED
February 16th, 2006, 06:51 AM
Yes, your right its Hinduism...the ancient roots of Hinduism id Dravidianism 6000-3000 BCE.
Islam being the youngest religion.


Actually for major religions yes islam is the youngest, however we do have others with literaly millions of adherants such as jehova witness's (ugh) scientology, and mormanism. Scientology being the youngest of the three. :tup:

Nagasena
February 16th, 2006, 09:08 AM
I can accept Hinduism is the Oldest "Organized" Religion.
Hinduism also have organization structure as well.

Blackgrass
February 16th, 2006, 09:20 AM
On a side note I think all organised religions will be the downfall of humankind.

wanxtrmBANNED
February 16th, 2006, 06:49 PM
On a side note I think all organised religions will be the downfall of humankind.

:offtopic: though this is off topic i tend to agree. :offtopic:

Spartacus
February 17th, 2006, 03:31 AM
This is for everyone please give references and names as well as founders, etc.

Also where were they started.
And a small history of each mentioned?

I am not starting with a statement merely wish to guage the knowledge of people on this site.

All are welcome to contribute just use verifiable references where it is possible and as much evidence as is possible to back your claims up thanks.

I think you first need to define what you mean by organized. Additionally does the religion still need to exist today to qualify for consideration? Also, by whose perspective do we judge age? For example Mormans believe their religion started with Adam and Eve in the garden of eden which is in presnt-day western Missouri, yet non-Mormans will peg that religion's start in the 1820s. Additionally "Jews for Jesus" will tell you their faith started at the time of Christ. Yet outside observers will point out the group did not exist until the late 19th century.

One really needs to be much more specific when asking such a question.

Nagasena
February 17th, 2006, 08:34 AM
On a side note I think all organised religions will be the downfall of humankind.

Get another Thread and write down why u think that way?

wanxtrmBANNED
February 18th, 2006, 04:45 PM
I think you first need to define what you mean by organized. Additionally does the religion still need to exist today to qualify for consideration? Also, by whose perspective do we judge age? For example Mormans believe their religion started with Adam and Eve in the garden of eden which is in presnt-day western Missouri, yet non-Mormans will peg that religion's start in the 1820s. Additionally "Jews for Jesus" will tell you their faith started at the time of Christ. Yet outside observers will point out the group did not exist until the late 19th century.

One really needs to be much more specific when asking such a question.


Dear sparticus you are a pill, first things first history shows that the mormons started in 1820's (FACT- and here is some links to this fact)

http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/index.htm
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=29



I asked for facts this is clear correct?
Second and most important contribute to the thread, i was clear as to the starting definitions and gudielines, if you choose to misinterpret them that is your perogative as a person (especially someone who does it regularily )

As it is obvious you did not read my starting post completely ill repost it for you; i recommend that you READ it completely before responding in such an uneducated manner.


Quote: Originally Posted by wannaextreme

This is for everyone please give references and names as well as founders, etc.

Also where were they started.
And a small history of each mentioned?

I am not starting with a statement merely wish to guage the knowledge of people on this site.

All are welcome to contribute just use verifiable references where it is possible and as much evidence as is possible to back your claims up thanks.

Spartacus
February 18th, 2006, 05:43 PM
Dear sparticus you are a pill, first things first history shows that the mormons started in 1820's (FACT- and here is some links to this fact)

http://www.xmission.com/~research/about/index.htm
http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/database/article_display.cfm?HHID=29



I asked for facts this is clear correct?
Second and most important contribute to the thread, i was clear as to the starting definitions and gudielines, if you choose to misinterpret them that is your perogative as a person (especially someone who does it regularily )

As it is obvious you did not read my starting post completely ill repost it for you; i recommend that you READ it completely before responding in such an uneducated manner.


Quote: Originally Posted by wannaextreme

This is for everyone please give references and names as well as founders, etc.

Also where were they started.
And a small history of each mentioned?

I am not starting with a statement merely wish to guage the knowledge of people on this site.

All are welcome to contribute just use verifiable references where it is possible and as much evidence as is possible to back your claims up thanks.


For someone who does not know me, you sure assume a lot. As far as facts, There are Mormans who would be very happy to lay out fact after fact based on their religion's indoctrinational material to support them that their faith begqan before all others with Adam and Eve. Perhaps you are ignorant enough of Morman beliefs to not understand this. Just because you and most of the rest of the world put 1820 as the start date for Mormanism does not make it a universal fact for everyone. History is always written from many perspectives. It is not my fault you were extremely general in your opening thread, so please don't take offense when my only crime is pointing this out.

For the record, I read your opener quite thoroughly and its blatant generalism screamed to be called out for what it is. As far as contributing to the thread -- well I did. Unfortunately you seem to have missed realizing or understanding the point I was making -- or perhaps you just took my criticism personally? If you can not take criticism of what you post, then you are at the wrong place. If your only response to criticism is to personalize your responding attack, then again, you are in the wrong place.

wanxtrmBANNED
February 18th, 2006, 05:50 PM
For someone who does not know me, you sure assume a lot. As far as facts, There are Mormans who would be very happy to lay out fact after fact based on their religion's indoctrinational material to support them that their faith begqan before all others with Adam and Eve. Perhaps you are ignorant enough of Morman beliefs to not understand this. Just because you and most of the rest of the world put 1820 as the start date for Mormanism does not make it a universal fact for everyone. History is always written from many perspectives. It is not my fault you were extremely general in your opening thread, so please don't take offense when my only crime is pointing this out.

For the record, I read your opener quite thoroughly and its blatant generalism screamed to be called out for what it is. As far as contributing to the thread -- well I did. Unfortunately you seem to have missed realizing or understanding the point I was making -- or perhaps you just took my criticism personally? If you can not take criticism of what you post, then you are at the wrong place. If your only response to criticism is to personalize your responding attack, then again, you are in the wrong place.



Ok prove your statement about mormons; the fact is they were founded as a church by joseph smith in late 1820.
You can (according to any christian based religion - as they are) trace them back to adam and eve as according to the bible adam and eve were the first humans, but than you would look ridiculous as this is a far overreaching statement and desire. According to your very own bible (of which the mormons reference but use there own book of mormon - and add on and stand alone written by joseph smith) Christianity started with your jesus of nazareth (for you KB lol)
Lecturing me on not understanding or at least being knowledgeable of religions is unnecessary as you have provided no proof to your side other than they think.
Sorry sir prove it.

I was general yet specific in my opening statement i asked what people thought was the oldest organized religion and why (please provide proof when possible) THIS IS CLEAR -

Dragon
May 14th, 2006, 04:42 PM
Actually the way i understand it, it was Dravidianism, that started Hinduism itself.

http://agnosticwitch.catcara.com/oldest-religion.htm
http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/28609

wanxtrmBANNED
May 14th, 2006, 04:59 PM
Actually the way i understand it, it was Dravidianism, that started Hinduism itself.

http://agnosticwitch.catcara.com/oldest-religion.htm
http://www.malaysiakini.com/letters/28609


However to be correct, as a major known religion Hinduism is the oldest.
There are actually many other religions that are older, just very minor, or unkown.

Well done however sir.

FruitandNut
March 25th, 2007, 12:11 AM
According to Islamic claims they were the earliest lot. It seems that 'Allah' made Adam and Eve as Muslims, and that all humans are 'born' as Muslims, but many of us lose the plot and become Unfaithful/Infidel.

Perhaps what is needed is more publicity among Muslims about the following:

(from the wiki)
Qur'anic texts (ordered by the 3rd Caliph, Uthman)
Main article: Origin and development of the Qur'an#First standardization of Qur'an
Uthmān ibn ‘Affān, the third Caliph of Islam after Muhammad, who is credited with overseeing the creation of the authoritative written version of the Qur'an, also ordered the destruction of competing versions, circa 650 CE. Although the Qur'an had mainly been propagated through oral transmission, it also had already been recorded in at least three codices, most importantly the codex of Abdullah ibn Mas'ud in Kufa, and the codex of Ubayy ibn Ka'b in Syria. Sometime between 650 and 656 CE, a committee appointed by Uthman is believed to have produced a singular version in seven copies, and Uthman is said to have "sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt." [5]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So it seems that it was a selected 'committee' that composed the 'camel-like' 'definitive version' of the Qu'ran, and not Allah via Mohammed. Uthman and the boys were looking to put the right spin on things, and didn't want inconvenient 'truth' to spoil things.
Didn't Herr Hitler also order a bit of book burning some years later?

"Where they have burned books,
they will end in burning human beings."
- Heinrich Heine

'Islam' claims to hold copies of the Qu'ran that are older than the one in the British Museum - but it refuses to allow open scholarly research into their existence, authenticity and content. Why? What are they hiding? It appears that the non-Islamic world, and an increasing number of Immams and Mullahs are learning why!

Perhaps here is why.

'In 1972, during the restoration of the Great Mosque of Sana'a, in Yemen, laborers working in a loft between the structure's inner and outer roofs stumbled across a remarkable gravesite, although they did not realize it at the time. Their ignorance was excusable: mosques do not normally house graves, and this site contained no tombstones, no human remains, no funereal jewelry. It contained nothing more, in fact, than an unappealing mash of old parchment and paper documents -- damaged books and individual pages of Arabic text, fused together by centuries of rain and dampness, gnawed into over the years by rats and insects. Intent on completing the task at hand, the laborers gathered up the manuscripts, pressed them into some twenty potato sacks, and set them aside on the staircase of one of the mosque's minarets, where they were locked away -- and where they would probably have been forgotten once again, were it not for Qadhi Isma'il al-Akwa', then the president of the Yemeni Antiquities Authority, who realized the potential importance of the find. Al-Akwa' sought international assistance in examining and preserving the fragments, and in 1979 managed to interest a visiting German scholar, who in turn persuaded the German government to organize and fund a restoration project. Soon after the project began, it became clear that the hoard was a fabulous example of what is sometimes referred to as a "paper grave" -- in this case the resting place for, among other things, tens of thousands of fragments from close to a thousand different parchment codices of the Koran, the Muslim holy scripture. In some pious Muslim circles it is held that worn-out or damaged copies of the Koran must be removed from circulation; hence the idea of a grave, which both preserves the sanctity of the texts being laid to rest and ensures that only complete and unblemished editions of the scripture will be read.

Some of the parchment pages in the Yemeni hoard seemed to date back to the seventh and eighth centuries A.D., or Islam's first two centuries -- they were fragments, in other words, of perhaps the oldest Korans in existence. What's more, some of these fragments revealed small but intriguing aberrations from the standard Koranic text. Such aberrations, though not surprising to textual historians, are troublingly at odds with the orthodox Muslim belief that the Koran as it has reached us today is quite simply the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God.' ....

.... 'Copyediting God

BY the standards of contemporary biblical scholarship, most of the questions being posed by scholars like Puin and Rippin are rather modest; outside an Islamic context, proposing that the Koran has a history and suggesting that it can be interpreted metaphorically are not radical steps. But the Islamic context -- and Muslim sensibilities -- cannot be ignored. "To historicize the Koran would in effect delegitimize the whole historical experience of the Muslim community," says R. Stephen Humphreys, a professor of Islamic studies at the University of California at Santa Barbara. "The Koran is the charter for the community, the document that called it into existence. And ideally -- though obviously not always in reality -- Islamic history has been the effort to pursue and work out the commandments of the Koran in human life. If the Koran is a historical document, then the whole Islamic struggle of fourteen centuries is effectively meaningless."

The orthodox Muslim view of the Koran as self-evidently the Word of God, perfect and inimitable in message, language, style, and form, is strikingly similar to the fundamentalist Christian notion of the Bible's "inerrancy" and "verbal inspiration" that is still common in many places today. The notion was given classic expression only a little more than a century ago by the biblical scholar John William Burgon.
The Bible is none other than the voice of Him that sitteth upon the Throne! Every Book of it, every Chapter of it, every Verse of it, every word of it, every syllable of it ... every letter of it, is the direct utterance of the Most High!
Not all the Christians think this way about the Bible, however, and in fact, as the Encyclopaedia of Islam (1981) points out, "the closest analogue in Christian belief to the role of the Kur'an in Muslim belief is not the Bible, but Christ." If Christ is the Word of God made flesh, the Koran is the Word of God made text, and questioning its sanctity or authority is thus considered an outright attack on Islam -- as Salman Rushdie knows all too well. ....

.... Gerd-R. Puin's current thinking about the Koran's history partakes of this contemporary revisionism. "My idea is that the Koran is a kind of cocktail of texts that were not all understood even at the time of Muhammad," he says. "Many of them may even be a hundred years older than Islam itself. Even within the Islamic traditions there is a huge body of contradictory information, including a significant Christian substrate; one can derive a whole Islamic anti-history from them if one wants."
(Fruity insert - This would accord with Jesus being mentioned considerably more times in the Qu'ran than Mohammed.)

Patricia Crone defends the goals of this sort of thinking. "The Koran is a scripture with a history like any other -- except that we don't know this history and tend to provoke howls of protest when we study it. Nobody would mind the howls if they came from Westerners, but Westerners feel deferential when the howls come from other people: who are you to tamper with their legacy? But we Islamicists are not trying to destroy anyone's faith."

What is the Quran? (http://www.derafsh-kaviyani.com/english/quran1.html)

'Ms. Crone insists that the Koran and the Islamic tradition present a fundamental paradox. The Koran is a text soaked in monotheistic thinking, filled with stories and references to Abraham, Isaac, Joseph and Jesus, and yet the official history insists that Muhammad, an illiterate camel merchant, received the revelation in Mecca, a remote, sparsely populated part of Arabia, far from the centers of monotheistic thought, in an environment of idol-worshiping Arab Bedouins. Unless one accepts the idea of the angel Gabriel, Ms. Crone says, historians must somehow explain how all these monotheistic stories and ideas found their way into the Koran.

"There are only two possibilities," Ms. Crone said. "Either there had to be substantial numbers of Jews and Christians in Mecca or the Koran had to have been composed somewhere else."

Indeed, many scholars who are not revisionists agree that Islam must be placed back into the wider historical context of the religions of the Middle East rather than seeing it as the spontaneous product of the pristine Arabian desert. "I think there is increasing acceptance, even on the part of many Muslims, that Islam emerged out of the wider monotheistic soup of the Middle East," says Roy Mottahedeh, a professor of Islamic history at Harvard University. ....

.... Scholars like Mr. Luxenberg and Gerd- R. Puin, who teaches at Saarland University in Germany, have returned to the earliest known copies of the Koran in order to grasp what it says about the document's origins and composition. Mr. Luxenberg explains these copies are written without vowels and diacritical dots that modern Arabic uses to make it clear what letter is intended. In the eighth and ninth centuries, more than a century after the death of Muhammad, Islamic commentators added diacritical marks to clear up the ambiguities of the text, giving precise meanings to passages based on what they considered to be their proper context. Mr. Luxenberg's radical theory is that many of the text's difficulties can be clarified when it is seen as closely related to Aramaic, the language group of most Middle Eastern Jews and Christians at the time.

For example, the famous passage about the virgins is based on the word hur, which is an adjective in the feminine plural meaning simply "white." Islamic tradition insists the term hur stands for "houri," which means virgin, but Mr. Luxenberg insists that this is a forced misreading of the text. In both ancient Aramaic and in at least one respected dictionary of early Arabic, hur means "white raisin."

Mr. Luxenberg has traced the passages dealing with paradise to a Christian text called Hymns of Paradise by a fourth-century author. Mr. Luxenberg said the word paradise was derived from the Aramaic word for garden and all the descriptions of paradise described it as a garden of flowing waters, abundant fruits and white raisins, a prized delicacy in the ancient Near East. In this context, white raisins, mentioned often as hur, Mr. Luxenberg said, makes more sense than a reward of sexual favors.
Scholars Scrutinize the Koran's Origin (http://www.corkscrew-balloon.com/02/03/1bkk/04b.html)

---------------------------------------------------------------

By the beard of the Prophet! - How many Suicide Bombers know that it is not 72 sexy maidens waiting to delight them, but 72 'Christian' white raisins!
Their rewards in Heaven will indeed be grape - oops, yet another mis-translation

Perhaps if such information about the real origins of the 'Perfect Qu'ran' is more widely disseminated in the Muslim world, the less will be the call for a worldwide Jihad, a dar al-Islam, a new Caliphate, and the rule of Sharia. Only when the consensus in the Muslim diaspora is that it is not the unadulterated word of God, will Islam cease to be a potent force for conflict in the world. Perhaps their claims on Adam, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Jerusalem, and that 'their Allah' is the Yaweh/God, and not based on the polytheistic 'Moon God/Goddess' would become less insistent.

wanxtrmBANNED
March 25th, 2007, 06:15 AM
Um the Prophet Muhammed founded Islam, correct?
A little over 800 years, unfortunately puts this religion at about 2200 or so years shy of even hindu.

HappyLady
March 25th, 2007, 05:26 PM
While Hinduism is commonly accepted as the oldest organized religion, with the Vedas being said to have been inspired by the akashic records (divinely inspired), most religions that have grown into organized religions are a compilation of many branches of smaller organized religions. At some point in more modern history, texts and structure were compiled to make them "organized". I'm pretty sure the Hindu have it, though, according to many Hindu, they acknowledge that Hinduism is an extremely broad term for a very varied religious practice.

I agree with Hyde in that shamanism is probably what inspired almost all religions. It is one "ism" that has been practiced on every inhabited continent of the globe for thousands and thousands of years. It is a shame that it has become a relatively lost art.

wanxtrmBANNED
March 29th, 2007, 08:39 PM
While Hinduism is commonly accepted as the oldest organized religion, with the Vedas being said to have been inspired by the akashic records (divinely inspired), most religions that have grown into organized religions are a compilation of many branches of smaller organized religions. At some point in more modern history, texts and structure were compiled to make them "organized". I'm pretty sure the Hindu have it, though, according to many Hindu, they acknowledge that Hinduism is an extremely broad term for a very varied religious practice.

I agree with Hyde in that shamanism is probably what inspired almost all religions. It is one "ism" that has been practiced on every inhabited continent of the globe for thousands and thousands of years. It is a shame that it has become a relatively lost art.

Small bit to add here!
What are the oldest organized religions?

Its the OP, Organized religions! :afro:

HappyLady
March 30th, 2007, 03:50 AM
Small bit to add here!
What are the oldest organized religions?

Its the OP, Organized religions! :afro:

Huh? You can read, I'm pretty sure...I answered it...it's Hinduism.

wanxtrmBANNED
March 30th, 2007, 03:59 PM
Huh? You can read, I'm pretty sure...I answered it...it's Hinduism.

Lol you did, and than this was brought out again!



I agree with Hyde in that shamanism is probably what inspired almost all religions. It is one "ism" that has been practiced on every inhabited continent of the globe for thousands and thousands of years. It is a shame that it has become a relatively lost art.

Its ok, really I just thought you might like to know lol.


Have fun Happy, smile! :smitten: :grin: :grin:

HappyLady
April 2nd, 2007, 07:15 AM
Lol you did, and than this was brought out again!




Its ok, really I just thought you might like to know lol.


Have fun Happy, smile! :smitten: :grin: :grin:

You....confuse me. I know...it's not hard to do, but...you...confuse me.

I mentioned shamanism, because, in a way, it is organized. The cultures who have practiced shamanism are varied, yet, most of the shamans share very similar practices. (Healing, channeling, energy work, divination, etc....) So, in a way, shamans were likely the first religious or spiritual leaders in the world, so it *could* be argued that shamanism is the oldest organized world religion.

But...you...confuse me. :idiot2:

Mr. Hyde
April 2nd, 2007, 08:57 AM
I mentioned shamanism, because, in a way, it is organized. The cultures who have practiced shamanism are varied, yet, most of the shamans share very similar practices. (Healing, channeling, energy work, divination, etc....) So, in a way, shamans were likely the first religious or spiritual leaders in the world, so it *could* be argued that shamanism is the oldest organized world religion.

What primarily separates SHamanism from the traditional sense of what we consider "Organised Religion" is that SHamanism, as practiced by thousands of tribal cultures all across the world, recieved no monetary benefit or gain, there was no desire to spread it cross culturally, and in toe with that, there was no formal doctrine as there is with Judeo/Christian faiths or even Hinduism.

If we lived eight thousand years ago, and I was an Apache Indian, and Wanna were a Souix Indian, and my SHaman used animal bones to predict events and used Buffalo testicles to heal my headache, whereas Wanna's used Buffalo testicles to predict events and animal bones to heal him, we'd be fine with each other's shaman despite the clearly contradictory practices.

CliveStaples
April 2nd, 2007, 09:11 AM
What primarily separates SHamanism from the traditional sense of what we consider "Organised Religion" is that SHamanism, as practiced by thousands of tribal cultures all across the world, recieved no monetary benefit or gain, there was no desire to spread it cross culturally, and in toe with that, there was no formal doctrine as there is with Judeo/Christian faiths or even Hinduism.

It doesn't matter if the religion bestowed monetary benefits. It doesn't matter if it spread to other cultures.

What makes it an Organized Religion is not that it has formal doctrine--although that is close--but rather that it has a distinct form. Whether it has doctrine or not is irrelevant; sects vary on doctrine, but remain in the same religion.

I dispute shamanism because it has no distinct form. It existed in different cultures, but in each culture it was different. Also, "shamanism" is too vague. Are you ferring to Celtic Druidic groups? Are you referring to Naitive American religions (many of which are largely fictional--invented in the 1800s)?

That's like saying "Theism" is the oldest religion. Well, are you talking about Islam? Judaism? Christianity? Hellenic mythos? The category of "shamanism" is overbroad.


Final thought: If one really thinks about it; isn't agnosticism the oldest spiritual structure? After all--are we born believing in a god, -or anything for that matter?

We are not born agnostics; agnosticism is the belief that we cannot know God. We are born as "weak atheists" (there HAS to be a better word; nontheist?), having no belief regarding theism whatsoever.

Mr. Hyde
April 2nd, 2007, 09:51 AM
It doesn't matter if the religion bestowed monetary benefits. It doesn't matter if it spread to other cultures.
My bad. I see paying tithes and include the practice as part of the doctrine.

What makes it an Organized Religion is not that it has formal doctrine--although that is close--but rather that it has a distinct form. Whether it has doctrine or not is irrelevant; sects vary on doctrine, but remain in the same religion.
Form is guided by doctrine. If Baptists/Presbytirians(sp?), Methodists, Catholics, etc, didn't have a specific doctrinal belief system, their form wouldn't be so-directed to be different.

THe form arose from the belief. Protestants broke from Catholicism because of belief, which led to a new form. ANd I'd argue that for a religion to be considered organised it would have to have a specific doctrine. THat we have many sects of CHristianity under the broad stroke of CHristianity doesn't mean the individuals beliefs don't differ. Catholics have confessions, which are required if you wish to recieve communion. SOuthern Baptists don't believe in Dancing (don't ask, I don't know), etc. THey share a common thread in the general view of following Christ and the fundamental apsects of CHristianity, but on their own, the differences are from a differing doctrine. SMall changes here or there, a different interpretation that becomes doctrine, or something along those lines.

I dispute shamanism because it has no distinct form. It existed in different cultures, but in each culture it was different. Also, "shamanism" is too vague. Are you ferring to Celtic Druidic groups? Are you referring to Naitive American religions (many of which are largely fictional--invented in the 1800s)?
I'm not referring to any specific one because, since it's so encompassing, it'd be a hassle and I'm too lazy to bother with it. Also because, I think we can agree that getting specific dates for which culture's shamanic practices came first is a little difficult.

That's like saying "Theism" is the oldest religion. Well, are you talking about Islam? Judaism? Christianity? Hellenic mythos? The category of "shamanism" is overbroad.
I can agree that it's overbroad.

eliotitus
April 23rd, 2007, 12:39 PM
Yes, your right its Hinduism...the ancient roots of Hinduism id Dravidianism 6000-3000 BCE.
Islam being the youngest religion.

Pastafarianism is more recent, and jedi for that matter, both are legally reckognised religions in England due to the large number of people who put it on their concensus forms:grin:

GoldPhoenix
May 12th, 2007, 08:38 AM
EDIT: Another false claim on this thread has been that Islam is the newest organized religion. This is untrue; that title belongs to Baha'i faith.


The oldest world religion belongs to the Vodun (voodoo) and Animism. Oldest --surviving-- organized religion belongs to Hinduism, standing at nearly 5,300 years old, with beliefs from 4,000 years earlier.


From my limited knowledge on anchient history, I would guess Judaism (As far as ones that are still practiced), but most unconventional religions (Like Snoop's Voodoo example, and ones like Ananism) are probably older.

*shrugs*

I'd like to retract this claim; it is patantly false. (Although completely unintentionally so)


Yes, your right its Hinduism...the ancient roots of Hinduism id Dravidianism 6000-3000 BCE.
Islam being the youngest religion.

Sort of.



As I understand it, the history of Hinduism (As well as Zoroastrianism, and all the Pre-Christianized Europe mythologies, plus a whole lot of ancient middle-eastern mythologies that were mixed with Mesopotamian mythologies) stands like this:

Hinduism and the modern Indian culture descends from two cultures:

A. The Dravidian culture that stands --I read somewhere, anyways, wiki currently states the opposite-- as old as 7,000 BC known as the Vedic culture.
B. The Caucasian culture that descended from the Indo-Europeans, who came about around 4,200 BC. Wiki article: Indo-European people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_people)

Anyways, at some point anthropologists believe the Indo-Europeans invaded the Indus Valley culture and basically, the two cultures became one (I think from memory this happened circa 3500 BC or so). Hinduism was born.

Now, the other Indo-Europeans go into Persia and become Persians (who are close descendants to Germans). They create Zoroastrianism and their religious body, the Avesta, which has root words very similar to earlier copies of the Rig Veda, the religious book of the Hindus. Hence, we can connect the cultures together with linguistics, theology, and such.

Hinduism has a mix of Indo-European philosophies --IE: the classical Indo-Europen mythology of a god fighting a dragon (Vishnu vs. Vritra), and such. As well as a war god who has control over weather (Indra), and a classical female goddess Shakti.


I could go on into other theologies, but essentially that is the history of Hinduism. It gets various reformers like Buddha and Mahavira, but Hinduism has the same basic philosophical concepts of the build up of sinful acts (karma), rebirth (samsara), liberation (moksha), and worship/meditation (yoga).

phrique
May 14th, 2007, 11:54 AM
GP-

I think Judaism is generally considered the oldest Monotheistic religion. Perhaps that's what you'd heard in the past that had you off a bit. I realize you've retracted the statement, of course.

This is a difficult question to answer, really. While Hinduism is generally considered the oldest of the modern major religions, most religions didn't have such a concrete starting point as Christianity and even Islam. While we can generally agree that Christianity really started sometime within 100 years, Hinduism really evolved from earlier belief structures. So, what's the dividing line and how do we date it authoritatively? Tough question.

GoldPhoenix
May 14th, 2007, 12:37 PM
GP-

I think Judaism is generally considered the oldest Monotheistic religion. Perhaps that's what you'd heard in the past that had you off a bit. I realize you've retracted the statement, of course.

This is a difficult question to answer, really. While Hinduism is generally considered the oldest of the modern major religions, most religions didn't have such a concrete starting point as Christianity and even Islam. While we can generally agree that Christianity really started sometime within 100 years, Hinduism really evolved from earlier belief structures. So, what's the dividing line and how do we date it authoritatively? Tough question.

Nope; Judaism doesn't even come close to being the oldest monotheistic religion. That belongs to the Persian religion of Zoroastrianism.

Judaism started, from our historical knowledge at best in 1400 BC. That's a really liberal push back date; the more rigid one is 900 BC. Zoroastrianism started between 1800-1000 BC.

I think I was working off of the old knowledge I had back when I was a bit of an indoctrinated Christian.

phrique
May 14th, 2007, 12:41 PM
Nope; Judaism doesn't even come close to being the oldest monotheistic religion. That belongs to the Persian religion of Zarathrustianism.

Judaism started, from our historical knowledge at best in 1400 BC. That's a really liberal push back date; the more rigid one is 900 BC. Zoroastrianism started in 1800 BC.

Again, you're trying to assign solid dates to what are likely non-solid events. Judaism didn't just spring out of the desert. It's hard to place dates on these things.

I should have included "surviving" about Judaism, though. Judaism remains remarkably unchanged, be it for 3000+ years or just nearly 3000 years, it's still a pretty vibrant faith for that amount of time.

GoldPhoenix
May 15th, 2007, 10:57 AM
Again, you're trying to assign solid dates to what are likely non-solid events. Judaism didn't just spring out of the desert. It's hard to place dates on these things.

I should have included "surviving" about Judaism, though. Judaism remains remarkably unchanged, be it for 3000+ years or just nearly 3000 years, it's still a pretty vibrant faith for that amount of time.

Vibrant faith? It makes up less than 10 million people in a 6 billion population. That is, for the record, about .166% of the total population. Hardly "vibrant."

Judaism has changed quite a bit, what are you talking about? It's gone through numerous theological changes, canonized and uncanonized religious texts, and gone through several philosophical transitions; if you are including Reform Judaism, we're almost talking about a different faith altogether.


It's no different than Christianity, and Islam is clearly changing, too.

Vercingetorix
May 15th, 2007, 11:41 PM
Hinduism is the most ancient religion on planet Earth today. No other religion, living or extinct, even approximates the distance in time Hinduism has traveled. The earliest known discovered evidence of the Hindu religion - temples, fire pits, ceremonial baths, Siva Lingams, dancing Siva-like figures, Sakti figures, yogi statues and seals - from the Saivite Indus Valley empire in Northwest India, is over 60 centuries old. That is 200 generations of human souls, a continuity of historical religion that is twice that of any other faith.

What of the unrecorded evidence, the traces and tracks of Hinduism receding into the glacial period? It is to be noted that the Indus Valley civilization seems to have appeared in full bloom. There are no signs of slow, urban/agrarian maturation. Archeology may never dig up the true age of Hinduism, at least not through lost artifacts. Hinduism silently recedes into pre-ice age, civilized epochs that have left no known sign other than legend: the continents of Lemuria and Mu. Though Hinduism has spawned a legion of mystic personages who radiate God's light and guide men, the religion itself is ageless, founderless. No single man or group of men founded Hinduism. It exists, in its fullness, in the superconscious depths of mind itself. The Rig Veda, the oldest of the four Vedas, was composed about 1500 B.C. That is not taking into account the oral tradition that surely had to have had existed before the first Veda was written. Some would say that is is at least 8000 years old. I say 6000 to be safe.
Hinduism Today | Jun 1988 (http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/1988/06/1988-06-07.shtml)
Also:
Sacred-Texts: Hinduism (http://www.sacred-texts.com/hin/index.htm)
One of the mysteries of the Bible has always been where Jesus was during his twenties. There is a huge gap in the biography from puberty until about three years before the crucifixion. There are writings that were found in Tibet that support the theory that Jesus went East during these "missing years"
The Unknown Life of Jesus Christ Index (http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/uljc/index.htm)
<center><br><br><font color="red">_________________________________ <sub> Post Merged </sub>_________________________________</font><br><br></center>

Yes, your right its Hinduism...the ancient roots of Hinduism id Dravidianism 6000-3000 BCE.
Islam being the youngest religion.
That would be Scientology. Or that abhorration that the good Reverend Moon has got goin on. We will call it "Moonieism"