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adam
March 1st, 2006, 12:11 PM
this is not really a debate i am proposing but more of a question. DO people think that it was a contrast in ideology that caused a continuing tension between USSR and USA during the cold war?

I personally feel that it was not neccessarily the ideological difference preventing them working together but the lack of trust between the two powers, due to beliefs of expansion coming from both sides, USSR forcing themselves outwards from Russia and the USA importing their economic system on to the western Europeans. Ideological difference may have seperated the two powers, but that did not stand in the way of them joining forces against Hitler in World War Two. I feel it was also alot to do with what each country actually did rather than their belief system, Stalin saw the Truman Doctrine as threatening as the Americans saw the lack of free democratic elections in the west.

Zhavric
March 1st, 2006, 03:46 PM
First, welcome to ODN. :tup:


I see it more as a matter of resources & expansionism. Each side, effectively, wanted to either conquer or control the entire world. Communism and Capitalism were just incidental. (for crying out loud, Communism is a system of economics...)

KevinBrowning
March 1st, 2006, 04:55 PM
Communism and Capitalism were just incidental. (for crying out loud, Communism is a system of economics...)

Sure, basically, but Soviet communism entailed much more than who got what. It was an ideology of oppression and terror in the name of equality, with the state as the ultimate master of every man. You could say Nazism was just a system of economics too at its core, socialism, but there was a lot more attached to that idea, as we all know.

FruitandNut
March 1st, 2006, 06:43 PM
Ideology AND economics. Laissez fair/Freedom (well at least in theory) vs Central Control with respect to most things. Both 'countries' also wished to see the rest of the world as being in some degree their own feifdom and economic zone.

Ibelsd
March 3rd, 2006, 11:15 AM
The Soviets were driven by two main things.
1. Stalin was absolutely off his rocker paranoid and power-driven. He was purging doctors (his own) just before his death.
2. The Soviet Union had genuine reasons to distrust the west. Germany had just betrayed them. Earlier, France had hung them out to dry. The U.S. and England openly opposed Soviet expansion.

Even after Stalin was left to die (murdered?), the Soviet Union had already chosen its path and had isolated itself from the Western World. The isolation further heightened tensions. After all, if one isolates himself from the rest of the world, it brings mutual distrust.

FruitandNut
March 4th, 2006, 02:55 AM
Ibby - It is actually quite probable that Stalin was knocked off by Beria and an 'inner circle' who were worried about the dictator's wishes and plans for WWIII:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2793501.stm

Ibelsd
March 6th, 2006, 07:54 AM
Ibby - It is actually quite probable that Stalin was knocked off by Beria and an 'inner circle' who were worried about the dictator's wishes and plans for WWIII:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/2793501.stm

Outside of the conspiracy plots that come a dime a dozen, I was referring to the concept that his inner circle of people left him to die, even after they found him sprawled out on the floor. Had he not had the best doctors in Russia thrown in prison, he may have still been kept alive.

FruitandNut
March 7th, 2006, 08:30 PM
Outside of the conspiracy plots that come a dime a dozen, I was referring to the concept that his inner circle of people left him to die, even after they found him sprawled out on the floor. Had he not had the best doctors in Russia thrown in prison, he may have still been kept alive.

His inner circle may not have 'allowed' the good doctor to be there at the 'critical moment' - communication 'problems' would be easy for the likes of Beria to contrive. As historians have commented, Stalin was up for kicking off WWIII and people like Beria were 'cool' on such an idea.

Ibelsd
March 9th, 2006, 11:53 AM
His inner circle may not have 'allowed' the good doctor to be there at the 'critical moment' - communication 'problems' would be easy for the likes of Beria to contrive. As historians have commented, Stalin was up for kicking off WWIII and people like Beria were 'cool' on such an idea.

The thing is, Stalin's personal doctor was sitting in a prison while he was dying on the floor of his study. The doctor was in prison because Stalin had him put there, along with most of the competent doctors in russia.

FruitandNut
March 9th, 2006, 06:30 PM
And Hitler 'processed' through the concentration camps lot of scientists and the like that he could have done with in helping 'his' war effort, 'cos they were Jews. What does this tell us? {That they were paranoid schmucks.} That's politics for you!

fatuitous
April 19th, 2006, 07:07 PM
I am no history genious so could someone tell me why all those competent doctors were in prison?

Turtleflipper
April 19th, 2006, 08:05 PM
I am no history genious so could someone tell me why all those competent doctors were in prison?

'Cause they don't talk like the party tells them too.

FruitandNut
April 19th, 2006, 11:47 PM
fatuitous - Most Jewish professionals that didn't make it out of Germany before hostilities began ended up going to the gas chambers and cremetoria - before the Nazi repression they formed over 50% of Germany's doctors and a very significant proportion of the rest the most able in Medicine, Science, Engineering, Business and Banking.

They were persecuted because the Jews did not fit into the Nazi model of an Ayran diaspora. They were percieved as 'Untermenchen' in Nazi propaganda and likened to rats and flies, fit only for extinction no matter what their academic qualifications and abilities. Their 'success' was seen as being unfairly gained and part of a great conspiracy. They were used as a convenient whipping boy for all Germany's problems.

Read the following summary of the Nazi hate propaganda film 'Der ewige Jude' (The Eternal Jew) to get a flavour of how Jews were percieved:

http://www.holocaust-history.org/der-ewige-jude/stills.shtml

Even Einstein's 'Theories of Relativity' were called 'pseudo-science' because they were seen as being 'tainted' with Jewishness and therefore 'suspect'.