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ShadowKnight
April 20th, 2006, 10:33 PM
This is a tough one for me, but I'm going to go with Breed or Lithium.

mrs_innocent
April 21st, 2006, 01:31 AM
I'm inclined to stick with Lake of Fire, Man Who Sold the World, and Rape Me.

Better yet, I'm just going to stick with a full album: MTV Unplugged in New York.

Dionysus
April 21st, 2006, 01:45 AM
Come as you are

Jamie
April 21st, 2006, 07:00 AM
Lithium. And Kurt Cobain was a lousy guitar player.

CliveStaples
April 21st, 2006, 09:01 AM
Kurt Cobain was a lousy guitar player?

Okay, w/e. He took guitar to a whole new place. Not to the same extent that Hendrix did, but Cobain definitely was an innovator.

Heart-shaped Box, Rape Me, Come as You Are, Dumb, Smells Like Teen Spirit.

I like Rape Me the best though.

And In Utero > Unplugged.

Jamie
April 21st, 2006, 09:04 AM
Okay, w/e. He took guitar to a whole new place. Not to the same extent that Hendrix did, but Cobain definitely was an innovator.

How? Any kid with a couple years experience could play just like Cobain. I love his lyrics, no doubt, but his guitar skills leave much to desired.

southernbelle
April 21st, 2006, 09:28 AM
I gotta stick with Smells Like Teen Spirit. STILL love that song.

KevinBrowning
April 21st, 2006, 10:26 AM
1. Nirvana was not a good band. Pearl Jam was a better band from the same time period and genre, although grunge is generally a bad style of music.

2. Kurt Cobain was not a good guitar player. He had little technical skill, and he was nowhere near as innovative as such classic rock players as Jimi Hendrix or Eddie van Halen.

ShadowKnight
April 21st, 2006, 11:01 AM
How? Any kid with a couple years experience could play just like Cobain. I love his lyrics, no doubt, but his guitar skills leave much to desired.

Lol, no. Kurt Cobain was freaking great, like Clive said, he definitely wasn't the best, but he was pretty good.

Sadly enough, I like Rape Me a lot also.

Dionysus
April 21st, 2006, 12:06 PM
How? Any kid with a couple years experience could play just like Cobain. I love his lyrics, no doubt, but his guitar skills leave much to desired.Agreed

Turtleflipper
April 21st, 2006, 12:58 PM
Do any of the unplugged covers count?

Snoop
April 21st, 2006, 02:23 PM
Here's a poll that says Smells Like Teen Spirit is both the best and the second worst. Only a Nirvana fan would vote for the same song as best and worst at the same time.

http://www.misterpoll.com/results.mpl?id=930058470

Jamie
April 21st, 2006, 03:01 PM
Lol, no. Kurt Cobain was freaking great, like Clive said, he definitely wasn't the best, but he was pretty good.

How was Cobain's guitar skills "freaking great". Can anybody explain why he was good? What did he do that was so great? Most, if not all, of Nirvana's songs were easy to play. He did nothing fancy and nothing to give him the title of a good guitar player. In fact saying he is "freaking great" should insult all good guitar players.

PerVirtuous
April 21st, 2006, 03:33 PM
Heart shaped box was well written and perfect for the band.

Kurt was much like Beethoven, who did not play the piano all that well, but wrote for it beautifully. It was Cobain's writing for the guitar that was innovative, not necessarily his ability to play what he wrote. I say that both sides are correct. He was very good and bad at the same time.

KevinBrowning
April 21st, 2006, 03:40 PM
Kurt was much like Beethoven, who did not play the piano all that well, but wrote for it beautifully.

What? Beethoven was a great piano player. Performing wasn't a composer's main priority though, composing was. I'd like to see any other deaf person play the piano like Beethoven.

By the way, comparing Wolgang von Beethoven to Kurt Cobain should be some sort of fallacy, such as "Ludicrous Comparison."

Dionysus
April 21st, 2006, 06:40 PM
Heart shaped box was well written and perfect for the band.

Kurt was much like Beethoven, who did not play the piano all that well,Not true.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,913644,00.html

"He was a powerful player notorious for breaking hammers and strings, celebrated for his unheard-of colorations, the velocity of his scales, his singing legato, his double and triple trills.

Most of all he conquered the city with his improvisations, which were hair-raising beyond anything heard before. An eyewitness, in the extravagant terms of the burgeoning Romantic era, wrote: "Once he began to revel in the infinite world of tones, he was transported also above all earthly things - his spirit had burst all restricting bonds... Now his playing tore along like a wildly foaming cataract... and anon he sank down, exhausted, exhaling gentle plaints, dissolving in melancholy. Again the spirit would soar aloft, triumphing over terrestrial sufferings."

http://www.empire.k12.ca.us/capistrano/Mike/capmusic/classical/beethoven/beethove.htm

"Mozart was very impressed with the young teen's talent."

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/Assets/courseDescriptions/7250.asp?pc=SiteIndex

"Beethoven's magnificent phrasing and particularly the daring of his improvisation stirred me strangely to the depths of my soul; indeed, I found myself so profoundly bowed down that I did not touch my piano for several days."


but wrote for it beautifully.True


It was Cobain's writing for the guitar that was innovative, not necessarily his ability to play what he wrote. I say that both sides are correct. He was very good and bad at the same time.Agreed

Mr. Hyde
April 21st, 2006, 09:29 PM
The greatest Nirvana single was the gunshot.

Dionysus
April 22nd, 2006, 12:15 AM
The greatest Nirvana single was the gunshot.:lol:

PerVirtuous
April 22nd, 2006, 07:10 PM
Not true.

http://books.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,12084,913644,00.html

"He was a powerful player notorious for breaking hammers and strings, celebrated for his unheard-of colorations, the velocity of his scales, his singing legato, his double and triple trills.

Most of all he conquered the city with his improvisations, which were hair-raising beyond anything heard before. An eyewitness, in the extravagant terms of the burgeoning Romantic era, wrote: "Once he began to revel in the infinite world of tones, he was transported also above all earthly things - his spirit had burst all restricting bonds... Now his playing tore along like a wildly foaming cataract... and anon he sank down, exhausted, exhaling gentle plaints, dissolving in melancholy. Again the spirit would soar aloft, triumphing over terrestrial sufferings."

http://www.empire.k12.ca.us/capistrano/Mike/capmusic/classical/beethoven/beethove.htm

"Mozart was very impressed with the young teen's talent."

http://www.teach12.com/ttc/Assets/courseDescriptions/7250.asp?pc=SiteIndex

"Beethoven's magnificent phrasing and particularly the daring of his improvisation stirred me strangely to the depths of my soul; indeed, I found myself so profoundly bowed down that I did not touch my piano for several days."

True

Agreed

Notice they talked about his phrasing and voicing, all to do with writing. Not once did they mention his technique. He was no Franz Liszt! It was his writing and not his technique that made Beethoven special, just like Kurt.

Dionysus
April 23rd, 2006, 07:26 AM
Notice they talked about his phrasing and voicing, all to do with writing.No, ALL the examples provided were expressly referring to his playing.


Not once did they mention his technique. He was no Franz Liszt! It was his writing and not his technique that made Beethoven special, just like Kurt.No, it was both.

PerVirtuous
April 23rd, 2006, 03:57 PM
I think you will find if you dig deeper that several ...

Nah. You win. It's not important.

Iluvatar
April 23rd, 2006, 06:15 PM
I vote Man Who Sold The World.

And Perv, that last post was quite the cop-out for a debate site. ;)

CliveStaples
April 24th, 2006, 12:13 AM
Any kid with a couple years experience could play just like Cobain.

Not a very persuasive argument. Any college writer can imitate Wordsworth or Whitman, but that doesn't mean that they can write as well as Wordsworth or Whitman. Weird Al's guitarists can successfully copy someone else's playing very well, but that doesn't make them great artists.

I'm not saying Cobain was a genius at playing the guitar. He experimented a little with feedback, different kinds of chords and harmonies, and some atonal stuff. He wasn't as huge an influence or innovator as, say, Hendrix (as I said before). He was, however, an excellent songwriter and an innovative guitar player. Technical excellence? Yeah, that's all good and fine, I suppose; it don't take much skill to play a I-IV-V-IV-V-I chord progression with a blues/jazz solo thrown in, but Beverly Hills is still a kick-ass song.

tinkerbell
April 24th, 2006, 06:12 PM
Heart Shaped Box

PallidaMors
April 25th, 2006, 04:07 AM
You Know You're Right...theme song of my ex. :devil:

KevinBrowning
April 25th, 2006, 01:25 PM
You Know You're Right...theme song of my ex. :devil:

PM, where you been? It's been forever since I've seen you here.

Jamie
April 25th, 2006, 03:00 PM
Not a very persuasive argument.

Lol. Sort of like your w/e comment earlier in this thread. :lol:


I'm not saying Cobain was a genius at playing the guitar. He experimented a little with feedback, different kinds of chords and harmonies, and some atonal stuff. He wasn't as huge an influence or innovator as, say, Hendrix (as I said before). He was, however, an excellent songwriter and an innovative guitar player. Technical excellence? Yeah, that's all good and fine, I suppose; it don't take much skill to play a I-IV-V-IV-V-I chord progression with a blues/jazz solo thrown in, but Beverly Hills is still a kick-ass song.

That's the whole point. You or I could have been just as "innovative" as Cobain was. He was a great song writer, I don't dispute that. Unless you consider anyone who can play a power cord a great artist, I don't see how Cobain is great, or freaking great in the words of SK.

Mr. Hyde
April 25th, 2006, 03:47 PM
I don't see how Cobain is great
ME EITHER!

Weird Al sang it best in "Smells Like Nirvana" when he said:


It's unintelligible
I just can't get it through my skull
It's hard to bargle nawdle zouss
with all these marbles in my mouth

KevinBrowning
April 26th, 2006, 12:06 AM
ME EITHER!

Weird Al sang it best in "Smells Like Nirvana" when he said:


It's unintelligible
I just can't get it through my skull
It's hard to bargle nawdle zouss
with all these marbles in my mouth

I think that warrants the actual full lyrics compared to Al's:


Load up on guns
Bring your friends
Itís fun to lose
And to pretend
Sheís overboard
Myself assured
I know I know
A dirty word

Hello (x 16)

With the lights out itís less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My libido
Yea

Iím worse at what I do best
And for this gift I feel blessed
Our little group has always been
And always will until the end

Hello (x 16)

With the lights out itís less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My libido
Yea

And I forget
Just what it takes
And yet I guess it makes me smile
I found it hard
Its hard to find
Oh well, whatever, nevermind

Hello (x 16)

With the lights out itís less dangerous
Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us
A mulatto
An albino
A mosquito
My libido
Yea


What is this song all about?
Canít figure any lyrics out
How do the words to it go?
I wish youíd tell me, I donít know
Donít know, donít know, donít know, oh no
Donít know, donít know, donít know...

Now Iím mumbliní and Iím screaminí
And I donít know what Iím singiní
Crank the volume, ears are bleediní
I still donít know what Iím singiní
Weíre so loud and incoherent
Boy, this oughta bug your parents
Yeah

Itís unintel-ligible
I just canít get it through my skull
Itís hard to bargle nawdle zouss(? )
With all these marbles in my mouth
Donít know, donít know, donít know, oh no
Donít know, donít know, donít know...

Well, we donít sound like madonna
Here we are now, weíre nirvana
Sing distinctly? we donít wanna
Buy our album, weíre nirvana
A garage band from seattle
Well, it sure beats raising cattle
Yeah

And I forgot the next verse
Oh well, I guess it pays to rehearse
The lyric sheetís so hard to find
What are the words? oh, nevermind
Donít know, donít know, donít know, oh no
Donít know, donít know, donít know...

Well, Iím yelliní and weíre playiní
But I donít know what Iím sayiní
Whatís the message Iím conveyiní?
Can you tell me what Iím sayiní?
So have you got some idea?
Didnít think so -- well, Iíll see ya
Sayonara, sayonara
Ayonawa, odinawa
Odinaya, yodinaya
Yaddayadda, yaaahyaaah
Ayaaaaaah!

CliveStaples
April 26th, 2006, 09:42 AM
You or I could have been just as "innovative" as Cobain was.

So what? You or I could have invented the airplane, or posited E=mc^2.

And Kevin--

I thought that:

Here we are now
Entertain us
I feel stupid and contagious
Here we are now
Entertain us

...was actually a rather profound statement for a popular musician to make.

Mr. Hyde
April 26th, 2006, 01:03 PM
I stand by Weird Al. Cobain's lyrics...make no sense to me.

Pearl Jam was better in every sense.

ShadowKnight
April 26th, 2006, 03:04 PM
You Know You're Right...theme song of my ex. :devil:

Welcome back man :D this time stay so I can beat you in chess

Jamie
April 27th, 2006, 07:01 AM
So what?

So what? If you, or I, or any random person off the street can do the samething Cobain did with music after a couple years playing, it doesn't make him stand out in the crowd. It makes him like every other high school guitar player who wants to make it big, but doesn't have anything special to offer.

You stated that Cobain took guitar to a whole new place, and was an innovator, but now you're saying that any of us could have done that, so if that's true, why do you think he's so special? He did nothing for music with regards to guitar playing. Nothing. So yeah, we could all have done what he did. And if that's so, I want a few million for being capable of playing power cords. I can cover a few songs, play them on MTV unplugged and wear dirty shirts with thrift store cardigans. I already have the guitar playing down, now I just need to become suicidal and write about my life. In code of course, Cobain was fabulous at that.

CliveStaples
April 27th, 2006, 09:15 AM
If you, or I, or any random person off the street can do the samething Cobain did with music after a couple years playing, it doesn't make him stand out in the crowd.

Huh?

You, I, or any other person off the street could have invented the cotton gin. But we didn't. We didn't put our time and effort into making it, and we didn't think of it.


You stated that Cobain took guitar to a whole new place, and was an innovator, but now you're saying that any of us could have done that, so if that's true, why do you think he's so special?

Anyone could have done what Hendrix did, too. All it requires is ten good fingers and some musical know-how.

Nirvana didn't play power chords, Jamie. Do you know what you're talking about? They covered bands like Meat Puppets. Cobain was an excellent songwriter, and he did interesting things with the guitar, such as feedback experimentation (as in "Frances Farmer Will Have Her Revenge On Seattle") and never-before-seen chord progressions coupled with a new style of lyric.

Sorry that I don't share your apparent disregard for Cobain's musicianship. Was his strongest part his guitar playing? No. HOW he did it wasn't what made him big; WHAT he did was.

Anyone could play "Back in Black". It's not that hard. Is AC/DC somehow not skilled now, because they perform that song?

After someone comes up with something new, it's very, very easy to think "Now why didn't Icome up with that?" Any number of people could have invented the telephone; it didn't take a level of technical knowhow possessed only by the top engineers in America. But Graham Bell was the one who put it together. The innovation occurs not in the level of technical expertise demonstrated or required, but in the novel arrangement of parts.

Cobain, as I have said before, didn't do nearly so much for music as Hendrix did. He wasn't the grandfather of guitar for generations and generations to come. But Cobain was a big mover and shaker in the grunge movement, which DID inspire quite a few musicians. He wrote NEW, interesting songs that nobody had ever written before, in a style that was not exactly established yet.

KevinBrowning
April 27th, 2006, 10:51 AM
I stand by Weird Al. Cobain's lyrics...make no sense to me.

Pearl Jam was better in every sense.

Agreed. They're making a comeback apparently, but unfortunately Eddie Vedder is taking the political route. Why must all returning rock bands do that?

The Rolling Stones had to make their old, drunken, hypocritical selves look ridiculous by criticizing our president's morals with "Sweet Neo-Con." Just sing about hard times and women, you fools, that's what got you famous.

Mr. Hyde
April 27th, 2006, 11:08 AM
Agreed. They're making a comeback apparently, but unfortunately Eddie Vedder is taking the political route. Why must all returning rock bands do that?

The Rolling Stones had to make their old, drunken, hypocritical selves look ridiculous by criticizing our president's morals with "Sweet Neo-Con." Just sing about hard times and women, you fools, that's what got you famous.
Vedder's always been political though.

Rolling Stones getting political? That's like Britney Spears trying to have an informed opinion. She married Federline, her opinion isn't worth the air it took to voice it. Same with the Stones. Jagger should, as you said, go back to singing about women and hard times.

Andacanavar
April 27th, 2006, 11:18 AM
I really think it's kind of apples and oranges comparing PJ and Nirvana. They have always ellicted different moods out of me.

That being said, I prefer Nirvana myself. Love, "In Bloom", "Heart-Shaped Box", etc.

But that's just me.


The greatest Nirvana single was the gunshot.

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/spit.gif

Holy ****. I don't know if you will win debator of the month Hyde, but that's easily quote of the month. http://deephousepage.com/smilies/rofl.gif

Rock on!

http://deephousepage.com/smilies/music341.gif

Jamie
April 27th, 2006, 06:04 PM
Anyone could have done what Hendrix did, too. All it requires is ten good fingers and some musical know-how.

Are you one of those naive people who believe anyone can do anything as long as they try hard enough? Do you believe someone who is tone deaf can carry a tune, and sing the National Anthem for the President?


Nirvana didn't play power chords, Jamie. Do you know what you're talking about?

Yep. Pretty sure I know what I am talking about, Clive. For those who don't know what a power chord is, this link explains it:

http://guitar.about.com/library/weekly/aa092600c.htm

You're really disputing they didn't play power chords? I couldn't find any free sheet music to show you, unless I filled out a survey so I could win an ipod. I don't want an ipod, sorry. But wait, I did find this:

http://www.azchords.com/n/nirvana-tabs-2773.html

Nirvana was a grunge band. That's what grunge bands were known for....power chords. So really Clive, it seems that you don't know what you are talking about. But that's ok apparently there is a new definition of a power chord that you should inform us of. I'd appreciate it. Thanks. The music industry would also like to know. Poor grunge bands not knowing what they are doing. :(

CliveStaples
April 27th, 2006, 08:05 PM
Are you one of those naive people who believe anyone can do anything as long as they try hard enough? Do you believe someone who is tone deaf can carry a tune, and sing the National Anthem for the President?

Are you one of those ignorant people who think that straying from orthodox musicianship is completely unacceptable?

Kurt Cobain isn't the kind of musician who's gonna sing the National anthem to the President. You wouldn't expect Wordsworth to write in Melville's gritty realism.


Nirvana was a grunge band. That's what grunge bands were known for....power chords. So really Clive, it seems that you don't know what you are talking about. But that's ok apparently there is a new definition of a power chord that you should inform us of. I'd appreciate it. Thanks. The music industry would also like to know. Poor grunge bands not knowing what they are doing. :(

Hmm. My conception of a power chord was that it was an open chord without color--minor, major, diminished, etc. And I know that Nirvana used chords with very interesting colors. Guess I was wrong.

But thanks for the snippy tone, and the implication of arrogance. It's appreciated.

PallidaMors
April 28th, 2006, 02:12 AM
PM, where you been? It's been forever since I've seen you here.
Hey Kev, Sk...yeah....life, liberty, pursuit of happiness stuff kept me busy...

Pertaining to the thread:

I have no idea how anyone could EVER consider Cobain to be a masterful musician...the style of music is named "Grunge" for a reason. It is simple, drawn out music style where the singer rarely articulates his words, and thus sometimes is not understandable. Its basically like listening to John Fogerty sing Down On the Corner...

One of the greatest guitar players of all time? That made me laugh so hard I think I lost brain matter. Listen to an entire Nirvana album, then go listen to ONE song from Clapton, Hendrix, or even Slash for gods sake...hopefully you will be able to tell the difference...

Jamie
April 28th, 2006, 05:36 AM
Are you one of those ignorant people who think that straying from orthodox musicianship is completely unacceptable?

Of course not, but I realize what is good and what isn't. Anyone with the slightest musical backing will see Nirvana for what it was (and let me guess you have musical backing but didn't know what a power chord was). A band with great lyrics, that did a lot for music in general, but had a mediocre guitar player. But that's ok Clive you believe anyone can be Einstein, or invent the cotton gin, so I really wouldn't throw the ignorant comment my way.


Hmm. My conception of a power chord was that it was an open chord without color--minor, major, diminished, etc. And I know that Nirvana used chords with very interesting colors. Guess I was wrong.

But thanks for the snippy tone, and the implication of arrogance. It's appreciated.

Snippy tone came from the fact that you acted like you knew what you were talking about (when you clearly didn't), and trying to assert yourself as right in an arrogant and obviously ignorant tone. If you don't want it Clive then don't dish it and complain when people do it back. :(