View Full Version : UFOS over Mexico
Withnail
May 12th, 2004, 11:56 AM
I thought this would be a nice diversion for you all from the rest of whats going on around the world.
Mexican Air Force pilots film unidentified objects
Wednesday, May 12, 2004 Posted: 8:10 AM EDT (1210 GMT)
Unidentified lights appear on a videotape taken by Mexican air force pilots.
MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified objects in the skies over southern Campeche state, a Defense Department spokesman confirmed Tuesday.
A videotape made widely available to the news media on Tuesday shows the bright objects, some sharp points of light and others like large headlights, moving rapidly in what appears to be a late-evening sky.
The lights were filmed on March 5 by pilots using infrared equipment. They appeared to be flying at an altitude of about 3,500 meters (11,480 feet), and allegedly surrounded the Air Force jet as it conducted routine anti-drug trafficking vigilance in Campeche. Only three of the objects showed up on the plane's radar.
"Was I afraid? Yes. A little afraid because we were facing something that had never happened before," said radar operator Lt. German Marin in a taped interview made public Tuesday.
"I couldn't say what it was ... but I think they're completely real," added Lt. Mario Adrian Vazquez, the infrared equipment operator. Vazquez insisted that there was no way to alter the recorded images.
The plane's captain, Maj. Magdaleno Castanon, said the military jets chased the lights "and I believe they could feel we were pursuing them."
When the jets stopped following the objects, they disappeared, he said.
A Mexican Defense Department spokesman confirmed Tuesday that the videotape was filmed by members of the Mexican Air Force. The spokesman declined to comment further and spoke on customary condition of anonymity.
The video was first aired on national television Monday night then again at a news conference Tuesday by Jaime Maussan, a Mexican investigator who has dedicated the past 10 years to studying UFOs.
"This is historic news," Maussan told reporters. "Hundreds of videos (of UFOs) exist, but none had the backing of the armed forces of any country. ... The armed forces don't perpetuate frauds."
Maussan said Secretary of Defense Gen. Ricardo Vega Garcia gave him the video on April 22.
What's in the water down there?
Actually I can't think of anything that would blow my mind more than evidence of ET'S.
Wouldn't National Security and Defense freak out if they believed we were being visited? I wonder if any resources are being used right now by the Defense Department to study this video and report. I really think we'd be prone to shoot first, and ask questions later as we sort through the wreckage.
I just don't see our society welcoming ET's with open arms.
BTW, if any ET's are reading this, I would love to chat, but I couldn't claim to speak for the entire planet. And I respectfully decline any kind of "probing".
Also recently I was listening to a Pixies cd, and the lead singer, Frank Black, has a thing for UFOS and such. Anyway, there's a song called "The Happening" on "Bossanova" about THEM landing on the strip in Vegas. I just love that image of a ship getting to earth, and landing where the lights are brightest. Vegas as a beacon! Plus, if they landed there, people would probably just think it was the latest street spectacle from the MGM Grand.
:)
Apokalupsis
May 12th, 2004, 12:08 PM
Of course, this news article will be the last we hear of the alleged event...just like all reportings. ;)
KneeLess
May 12th, 2004, 05:40 PM
BTW, if any ET's are reading this, I would love to chat, but I couldn't claim to speak for the entire planet. And I respectfully decline any kind of "probing".
Excuse him martians, I speak for the entire planet, so speak to me.
I really like all these stories about martian sightings, they're cool even if they're fecal desposits from airplanes or birds. :)
Telex
May 12th, 2004, 06:27 PM
"This is historic news," Maussan told reporters. "Hundreds of videos (of UFOs) exist, but none had the backing of the armed forces of any country. ... The armed forces don't perpetuate frauds."
Heh
Anyway, another good alien song is "Subterranean Homesick Alien" by Radiohead.
Withnail
May 12th, 2004, 06:37 PM
TO ANY ET's
I do not assume you are Martians.
Kneeless claims to speak for the entire planet, in the above post. But Kneeless does not speak for ME, therefore cannot speak for the entire planet.
It is possible, I concede, for you to theoretically speak both to ME and Kneeless, and thereby cover everyone (assuming Kneeless does in fact speak for everyone else on the planet but me).
And if you need to probe anyone, I have some suggestions of potential "Probees" from members of this site.
chadn737
May 12th, 2004, 07:03 PM
Mexico has an Air Force!!! ;? ;? ;?
KevinBrowning
May 12th, 2004, 07:19 PM
The UFOs are conceivable, but saying Mexico has an air force is kind of a stretch.
Fyshhed
May 13th, 2004, 01:01 PM
The UFOs are conceivable, but saying Mexico has an air force is kind of a stretch.
UFO's taunt mexico's air force all the time, but not ours. This is partly because we have better technology, and partly because we have guns and missiles on our planes. :D
SouthernDem
May 13th, 2004, 01:15 PM
2004 Mexican Ari Force List of Flight Vehicles:
2 Weather ballons
1 Parachute
2 Guys with sheets
AntiMaterialist
May 13th, 2004, 01:24 PM
BTW, if any ET's are reading this, I would love to chat, but I couldn't claim to speak for the entire planet. And I respectfully decline any kind of "probing".
And if you need to probe anyone, I have some suggestions of potential "Probees" from members of this site.
Now, now, Withnail - don't knock it 'til you've tried it. If you need to prepare for your Alien Probing, I might know a few folks that could help you out! You can come out of the Alien Probing closet around here - most of us don't mind. If they get you pregnant with an alien baby in the process, even Sam might not mind this predilection you are so obviously in denial about.
I wanna start an Alien Probing rights movement!
SouthernDem
May 13th, 2004, 01:25 PM
To All ETs reading:
You can go ahead a Probe the hell out of AM, leave me outta it....
Slipnish
May 13th, 2004, 09:57 PM
I saw the video. It looked like 6-8 lights... You couldn't tell anything about them. No contrast, no colors, nada.
They did say that the objects were tracked by radar.
I expected the guy in the bug suit to jump out any minute, followed by a couple of really hot babes and start speaking rapidly ensuring that the few words I do understand are instantly lost...
Of course I don't mind, cause the chicks on there are really hot...
Hmmm. UFOs and Hot Chicks, what am I doing here?!?
PS: To all the EBEs (Extraterrestrial Biological Entities. You guys gotta keep up with the literature better.) out there: Anal probing is not how we say, "Hello." on this planet.
Thank you.
Withnail
May 14th, 2004, 02:28 AM
============= TO ANY READING ET'S OR EBE'S OR BET's==============
AM HAS AGREED (BEEN NOMINATED) TO BE OUR PLANET'S "PROBEE".
PLEASE ACCEPT OUR "GIFT".
WE SINCERELY HOPE HE COMPLETELY PROVIDES ANY LAST PROBING DATA YOU REQUIRE.
================================================== ========
AntiMaterialist
May 14th, 2004, 05:50 AM
AM HAS AGREED (BEEN NOMINATED) TO BE OUR PLANET'S "PROBEE".
PLEASE ACCEPT OUR "GIFT".
WE SINCERELY HOPE HE COMPLETELY PROVIDES ANY LAST PROBING DATA YOU REQUIRE.
Cool! Now I won't have to keep going down to the corner Alien Probing store to pay for it!
Slipnish
May 14th, 2004, 06:08 AM
LOL!
Hmmm. Methinks the lad doth not protest enough! ;? :lol: ;?
GodlessSkept
August 8th, 2004, 05:20 PM
Turns out the objects sighted were oil platform flares or somesuch. A lengthy article on it in a recent e-skeptic dispatch.
AuspiciousFist
August 8th, 2004, 05:35 PM
do flares regularly fly around planes and surround them?
Fyshhed
August 8th, 2004, 05:53 PM
Cool! Now I won't have to keep going down to the corner Alien Probing store to pay for it!
That might be the local proctologist with a clever business name and a little gray suit ;)
GodlessSkept
August 8th, 2004, 06:58 PM
do flares regularly fly around planes and surround them?
Never happened. The initial report was that they had seen the lights and the objects had shown up on radar. The story got exagerrated with each telling until finally they "were surrounded and chased by them". The video never shows anysuch thing occuring.
Withnail
August 9th, 2004, 07:09 AM
Freaky...
This thread was a mere 5 days before AntiMaterialist's last post.
Perhaps he was really abducted?
Darkkat
August 10th, 2004, 06:12 PM
Turns out the objects sighted were oil platform flares or somesuch. A lengthy article on it in a recent e-skeptic dispatch.
Do you know where I could read this article (or dispatch)? Last I read on the subject, the general concensus was that the 'lights' were localised temperature inversions or somesuch, the key evidence for that being that the objects weren't visible to the naked eye but showed up on infra-red. Then again, oil platform flares aren't too different, I suppose. (It does sound like the phrase 'swamp gas' should be in there somewhere...)
GodlessSkept
August 11th, 2004, 01:24 AM
Do you know where I could read this article (or dispatch)? Last I read on the subject, the general concensus was that the 'lights' were localised temperature inversions or somesuch, the key evidence for that being that the objects weren't visible to the naked eye but showed up on infra-red. Then again, oil platform flares aren't too different, I suppose. (It does sound like the phrase 'swamp gas' should be in there somewhere...)
I will try to find it online but for now here is the text(not sure if I can get the pictures to display here):
The Mexican Air Force UFO Affair: Aliens, Ball Lightning, or Flares?
James C. Smith
On Friday, March 5, Mexican Air Force pilots filmed 11 unidentified flying objects in the skies over southern Campeche state, but the public was not notified of the sightings until Mexico’s Defense Department issued a statement to that effect on May 12. A press release was accompanied by a videotape that showed some bright objects resembling sharp points of light moving rapidly in what appeared to be a late-evening sky. The lights were filmed by pilots using infrared equipment during a surveillance mission in search of drug-smuggling planes. They were reportedly flying at an altitude of about 11,500 feet.
“Was I afraid? Yes. A little afraid because we were facing something that had never happened before,” said radar operator Lt. German Marin in a taped interview quoted in the press release. “I couldn’t say what it was…but I think they’re completely real,” added Lt. Mario Adrian Vazquez, the infrared equipment operator. Vazquez insisted that there was no way to alter the recorded images. The plane’s captain, Maj. Magdaleno Castanon, said the military jets chased the lights “and I believe they could feel we were pursuing them.” He added that when the jets stopped following the objects, they disappeared.
Accounts of what actually happened varied wildly. Skeptic publisher Michael Shermer appeared on CNN three times the week the story broke. “Initial reports indicated that the UFOs were only discovered upon later review of the footage after the flight,” Shermer said. “Subsequent reports stated that the pilots saw the UFOs during the flight, but nothing much was made of it until the infrared footage was later reviewed. Still later reports claimed that the pilots not only saw the UFOs during the flight, but that they chased them, were surrounded by them, but were unable continue the chase. It was like a fisherman’s tale, growing with each retelling.”
The UFOlogists glommed onto the story when a Mexican UFO investigator named Jaime Maussan presented the footage as proof of alien visitation, which he said he obtained from Mexican Secretary of Defense Gen. Ricardo Vega Garcia. “This is historic news,” Maussan told reporters. “Hundreds of videos (of UFOs) exist, but none had the backing of the armed forces of any country…. The armed forces don’t perpetuate frauds.”
Other, more skeptical investigators suggested either ball lightning or a meteorite breaking up in the atmosphere as a possible explanation. Ball lightning is an interesting hypothesis, but at an altitude of 11,500 feet this would be the first known case of such a sighting, since ball lightning is typically reported at ground level or slightly above. The meteorite explanation is plausible, but unlikely because of the length of time the lights seem to hover in the atmosphere. Still other explanations have included satellite debris, secret military vehicles, and electrically ignited gas.
I would like to suggest something else entirely as the cause. I believe that the UFO lights were no more than oil platform burn-off flares. (See Figure 1.) This idea comes from Captain Alejandro Franz (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). Based on his understanding of the area, and of the infrared camera direction, he suggests a significant relationship between the Bay of Campeche Cantarell oil platform flares and the UFO lights. These platforms have one or more elevated, boom-mounted and “ground’ level flares to burn off very large amounts of gas and waste products (see, for example, Villasenor R. 2003. “An air quality emission inventory of offshore operations for the exploration and production of petroleum by the Mexican oil industry,” Atmospheric Environment, August, vol. 37, no. 26, pp. 3713-3729(17),
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<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width="34%" align=left border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD>Figure 1. Any single oil platform may have many extensions and towers for murning off flares. Note the boat included to give a sense of the scale of these enormous flares. </TD><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
Starting with Franz’ hypothesis, I attempted to confirm its feasibility. To see if the Campeche oil flares were significant light sources, I examined the Defense Meteorological Satellite Program (DMSP) data for the area. DMSP satellites provide daily coverage of the Earth’s surface in the infrared and visible light spectrum. I then looked at the publicly accessible averaged year 2000 nighttime light sources database. Camera viewpoint data stored on the video showed that there was a very good correlation with the bright platforms. Unfortunately, the DMSP data did not resolve independent oil flares, so individual UFOs could not be matched.
To see if the UFO images matched existing oil flares all of the oil platform flares had to be geo-located. Transponder coordinates for some oil platforms were found, but this data source was of limited use, since a transponder was not likely located near the flares themselves. A platform could have multiple flares but only one transponder, or the transponder might be located some distance away on a non-flare part of the platform.
An Internet search revealed a freely available public archive of Landsat satellite datasets for the Campeche area. Datasets at a variety of wavelengths, in particular the short and long infrared, and at very good resolution (15-30 meters) were available. Detailed examination of these datasets allowed each oil platform flare (which clearly saturated the sensor elements) to be located. The data was several years old, so no new flares were included, and it was possible that some flares were inactive during the imaging. Using the flare coordinates, a 3D model of the camera field of view and flares was created and a very good match with the UFO images was demonstrated.
<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width="95%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD>Figure 2. A Landstat image of the three oil platforms in the Campeche area off the coast of Mexico (Akal-C with 4 flares, Akal-J with 4 flares and Nohoch-A with 2 flares). The white lines indicate the narrow camera field during the video segment. </TD><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
The best match of existing flares to UFO images occurred with the most complicated light grouping referred to as the “ten UFO” segment. These lights match the flares on three oil platforms (Akal-C with 4 flares, Akal-J with 4 flares and Nohoch-A with 2 flares). Figure 2 is a Landsat image of three of the platforms which were used in the analysis. The white lines were added to the image to show how narrow the camera field of view was during the time the UFO video was shot.
(Data used to generate the figure is available from U.S. Geological Survey, EROS Data Center, Sioux Falls, SD. Source for this dataset was the Global Land Cover Facility, To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.).)
The 3D model required an assumed altitude for each flare (which is very important for the very narrow fields of view that they were videoed in). Both sea level and 100 foot flares were examined and were used to produce diagrams (A) and (B) in Figure 3. Diagram (C) shows the resulting best fits of high and low flares to the UFO images. The video frame for the time (D)is printed below the flare diagrams for comparison.
<TABLE cellSpacing=2 cellPadding=0 width="97%" border=0><TBODY><TR><TD>To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.><TD> </TD></TR><TR><TD>Figure 3 from top to bottom:
(A) Flares as they would appear at sea level.
(B) Additional flares as they would appear if located on 100 foot towers.
(C) Choosing the best match from the above two options
(D) A frame from the video image taken at 17:06:53 for comparison
</TD><TD> </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
When the exact locations of the flares were known it was possible to determine their distance to the aircraft. The distance to the horizon as viewed from the given 11,500-foot altitude for this video segment is about 130 miles. The distance to the oil platforms ranges from 110 to 120 miles. Thus, the flares were probably viewed directly rather being mirage images from below the horizon. Of interest is that the 3D model demonstrated that the separation or splitting of “UFOs” during this segment is a result of one more distant flare seeming to move from behind a closer one due to the motion of the aircraft.
From this hypothesis a number of questions arise.
Why didn’t the crew see the lights? The “ten UFO” lights were visible at very high zooms (i.e. just visible in Medium field of view = 3.6 degrees horizontal by 2.6 degrees vertical; larger and brighter in the Narrow field of view = .8 deg. by .6 deg.; best image in the Narrowest field of view= .4 deg. by .3 deg.) (Description of the Infrared Camera system on the aircraft, To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)). The human eye’s field of view is about 170 degrees by 80 degrees. Thus, a telephoto lens is needed to see that far away. Also, the human eye cannot see the infrared heat, which was likely a larger area than the visible light emitting area.
Why didn’t the crew ever see this before? The most obvious explanation is that they had never flown so far north and looked in that direction with the infrared camera before. If they had flown about 20 miles further south, they would not have seen the “ten UFO” group. Also, flare smoke, haze, or clouds may have obscured images in the narrow camera field of view.
Why did the lights seem to be moving? There are many clouds at various distances between the distant oil flares and the aircraft. This fact, and the very narrow field of view, gives the illusion of motion as the aircraft moves past the clouds. Camera angles confirm that there is little or no movement in what it is pointing at.
Why would an oil platform show up on radar? The “ten UFO” segment did not have a radar return. During the remaining parts of the video, there are radar returns, some with an associated light, which seem to have the characteristics of aircraft.
Can the infrared camera see as far as the flares? The field of view was very narrow for the “ten UFO” segment. Given an unobstructed viewpoint (no clouds, haze, or smoke), there should be no logical reason for the infrared camera to miss seeing a bright heat source. Some have proposed that a test flight be conducted by the Mexican Air Force in order to verify that the camera can really see the flares at distance. Although this suggestion is not without merit, it is both costly and controversial to use official funds to do this. Fortunately, Landsat data permitted the identification of an early UFO light that matched an on-shore set of flares. These flares (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts. (To view links or images in this forum your post count must be 3 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.)) at Atasta have four elevated flares and one ground flare (100m by 40 m!), which have at least the same brightness as the off-shore flares. The calculated distance to the Atasta flares was 82 miles. This was seen with a narrow field of view and the image size of the flare was much larger than the “ten UFO” lights. Thus, there is little stretch in asserting that the camera can see 120-mile distant flares.
Doesn’t the camera elevation for the “ten UFO” segment seem to aim above the horizon, thus placing them in the air? The horizon is not visible during the “ten UFO” segment. During this segment, the crewmember operating the camera states that the “altitude” of the UFOs is above their own aircraft elevation, but this is based solely on the camera elevation because there was no radar contact. Thus, it becomes necessary to check the validity of the camera elevation reading. Attempts to check the calibration of the recorded camera angles using celestial, terrestrial, and aircraft geometry references indicate significant adjustments (2-5 degrees) are required. The implication is that the camera angle readings (analogous to motor/gear drive positions) are somewhat independent of the aircraft flight state and do not reflect the aircraft instrument reading. Assuming the camera gimbals are referenced to a fixed aircraft body coordinate system instead of aircraft flight axes, then knowledge of the aircraft angle-of-attack (affected by aircraft mass distribution and altitude change) or aircraft yaw angle (affected by prevailing wind direction) is required to properly convert the camera readings. Since the data is not available, it must tentatively be assumed that the tilt of the camera axis due to angle-of-attack may have produced the unusual camera elevation reading for the “ten UFO” segment.
Are there any UFOs in the video? During the “ten UFO” segment, there are a few “UFOs” that may be flares that were not in the Landsat data. During the remaining parts of the video there are some UFOs (literally unidentified flying objects, and nothing more), but this is due to incomplete data. Some single lights have the characteristics of aircraft (movement and radar returns). Some seem to be at ground level and may be reflections off metal structures or sand banks.
Why did this event become such an issue? A hypothesis is that the crew was following a legitimate target that happened to disappear near where the “ten UFO” group became visible, which they had not encountered in their flight experience before. The two events became tied together in the crew’s mind and the resulting excitement and fear caused them to view everything in terms of UFOs. Ultimately, they felt a responsibility to try to get an answer to this event. They and the Mexican Air Force must be thanked for revealing this event since it was informative, however it also demonstrates the woeful general state of basic UFO investigation and analysis.
ABOUT THE AUTHOR: James C. Smith is an aerospace engineer in Fairfax, Virginia.
It worked!
Atticus
August 11th, 2004, 08:55 AM
If given enough evidence to support the existence of extraterristrial flying objects, would you believe in their existence?
GodlessSkept
August 11th, 2004, 12:32 PM
If given enough evidence to support the existence of extraterristrial flying objects, would you believe in their existence?
Yep! That's what skepticism is all about! For such evidence to be credible though it must meet certain standards:
It has to pass the test of Occam's razor. We must be able to rule out the mundane/common explanations as likelihoods. It cannot be the typically weak anecdotes and bald assertions that are always presented. There can be no ambiguity concerning video/radar captures and such(e.g. "could be an alien craft and could be a weather balloon/spyplane/flare/glitch/reflection/etc." is not convincing. We have had enough of that over the years.
It must be remembered that we are increasingly becoming a 'camera-ready' world. Odds are that half the people out and about in America have access to some type of camera at any given moment, be it their cell phones, a digital camera, a security camera outside their store/business etc. There should be NO EXCUSE for not having multiple pictures if a flying saucer appears over an interstate or mall in some part of America and furthermore air traffic controllers(especially nowadays) should immediately have detailed reports of ANY UFO in our airspace.
FruitandNut
August 13th, 2004, 08:58 AM
UFOs over Mexico? The 'Skunkworks' and liberal quantities of tequila?
papasmurf
December 21st, 2004, 01:05 PM
UFos over mexico makes perfect sense if you go back to the times of mayans and aztechs.... mayans math is better than ares. we see pictures of people in ships on their rocks literally they even have evidence of them trading across the ocean. if it wasnt for spain we would have known there whole history, but no they had to call them the devil and burn all their documents :( maybe then we would have already known. sorry just IF they were UFOs why wouldnt they come back where they might have been? it some what points to it.
ShadowKnight
December 21st, 2004, 10:42 PM
It's mexico for crying out loud, nothing they say is true ;)
Ibelsd
December 22nd, 2004, 08:21 AM
Doesn't it figure.. the average Mexican fighter pilot is as gullible and backwards as your average Idaho farmer. A few other observations:
The most unusual UFO in the sky when the Mexican fighter pilot was making his report was probably him. Has anyone ever seen a Mexican jet plane before? Does Mexico even have a real air force? About as credible as Mexican reports of Guadalupe sightings. I don't believe anything from that country except the strong smell.
chadn737
December 22nd, 2004, 04:47 PM
Once again I am shocked.....
Mexico has an airforce!!!
Ibelsd
December 23rd, 2004, 07:13 AM
Is there a strange sort of irony when, a post after comparing Mexican jet pilots to Iowa farmers, the writer of the next post is from Iowa?
Scratch that, I just re-read my post and realized I used Idaho. I promise, at the time I wrote the post it was a toss-up between the two.
Ibelsd
December 23rd, 2004, 07:17 AM
Oh and just in case anyone was interested, but too lazy to type "Mexican Air Force" as a search string:
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chadn737
December 23rd, 2004, 06:49 PM
Oh and just in case anyone was interested, but too lazy to type "Mexican Air Force" as a search string:
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Ahh, thats so cute! |)|
Is there a strange sort of irony when, a post after comparing Mexican jet pilots to Iowa farmers, the writer of the next post is from Iowa?
Scratch that, I just re-read my post and realized I used Idaho. I promise, at the time I wrote the post it was a toss-up between the two.
I take offence at this. We Iowa farmfolk are not gullible or backwards. Idaho farmers on the other hand.... they grow potatoes for goodness sake! Of course theirs something wrong with them.
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