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RfrancisR
February 2nd, 2007, 07:47 PM
JEDDAH, SAUDI ARABIA - Since the Palestinian elections in 2006, Israel and much of the West have asserted that the principal obstacle to any progress toward Israeli-Palestinian peace is the refusal of Hamas to "recognize Israel," or to "recognize Israel's existence," or to "recognize Israel's right to exist."

These three verbal formulations have been used by Israel, the United States, and the European Union as a rationale for collective punishment of the Palestinian people. The phrases are also used by the media, politicians, and even diplomats interchangeably, as though they mean the same thing. They do not.

"Recognizing Israel" or any other state is a formal legal and diplomatic act by one state with respect to another state. It is inappropriate – indeed, nonsensical – to talk about a political party or movement extending diplomatic recognition to a state. To talk of Hamas "recognizing Israel" is simply to use sloppy, confusing, and deceptive shorthand for the real demand being made of the Palestinians.

"Recognizing Israel's existence" appears on first impression to involve a relatively straightforward acknowledgment of a fact of life. Yet there are serious practical problems with this language. What Israel, within what borders, is involved? Is it the 55 percent of historical Palestine recommended for a Jewish state by the UN General Assembly in 1947? The 78 percent of historical Palestine occupied by the Zionist movement in 1948 and now viewed by most of the world as "Israel" or "Israel proper"? The 100 percent of historical Palestine occupied by Israel since June 1967 and shown as "Israel" (without any "Green Line") on maps in Israeli schoolbooks?

Israel has never defined its own borders, since doing so would necessarily place limits on them. Still, if this were all that was being demanded of Hamas, it might be possible for the ruling political party to acknowledge, as a fact of life, that a state of Israel exists today within some specified borders. Indeed, Hamas leadership has effectively done so in recent weeks.

"Recognizing Israel's right to exist," the actual demand being made of Hamas and Palestinians, is in an entirely different league. This formulation does not address diplomatic formalities or a simple acceptance of present realities. It calls for a moral judgment.

There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist." From a Palestinian perspective, the difference is in the same league as the difference between asking a Jew to acknowledge that the Holocaust happened and asking him to concede that the Holocaust was morally justified. For Palestinians to acknowledge the occurrence of the Nakba – the expulsion of the great majority of Palestinians from their homeland between 1947 and 1949 – is one thing. For them to publicly concede that it was "right" for the Nakba to have happened would be something else entirely. For the Jewish and Palestinian peoples, the Holocaust and the Nakba, respectively, represent catastrophes and injustices on an unimaginable scale that can neither be forgotten nor forgiven.

To demand that Palestinians recognize "Israel's right to exist" is to demand that a people who have been treated as subhumans unworthy of basic human rights publicly proclaim that they are subhumans. It would imply Palestinians' acceptance that they deserve what has been done and continues to be done to them. Even 19th-century US governments did not require the surviving native Americans to publicly proclaim the "rightness" of their ethnic cleansing by European colonists as a condition precedent to even discussing what sort of land reservation they might receive. Nor did native Americans have to live under economic blockade and threat of starvation until they shed whatever pride they had left and conceded the point.


CS Monitor Opinion Column (http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0202/p09s02-coop.html)

Thoughts?

Snoop
February 2nd, 2007, 07:53 PM
It sounds like the writer is taking an anti-Israel and pro Palestinian stance. Why would anyone refuse to accept the existance of Israel? Do they expect Israel to just go away?



There is an enormous difference between "recognizing Israel's existence" and "recognizing Israel's right to exist."
This is true - we all have a right to exist.

Mr. Hyde
February 3rd, 2007, 01:19 PM
Whoever wrote it has a decent point in separating the statements, "Israel exists" "Israel has a right to exist" and that other one.

But that's about it. Acknowledging Israel's right to exist isn't anywhere close to being in the same league as a Jew saying the Holocaust was moral, or the Indians conceding some forgotten point about America due to "ethnic cleansing."

What's being asked in regards to "Acknowledging Israel's Existence and Right to Exist" is that we're asking Palestinians to acknowledge that the currently existing state of Israel is in fact a legitimate Nation as well as one that has a right to BE a nation. Any attempt to claim mass horror against Palestinians is only going to reciprocated with similar stories about horrors committed against Israelies by Palestinians.

If memory serves, after all the fighting and bloodshed, terrorist and military actions over JUST the Gaza strip, what happened, Israel said, "**** it, take the damned thing." To the best of my knowledge (limited a fair deal), Israelis have never wished the destruction of the Palestinian people, nor anything of a similar degree. On the other hand I've seen on several History Channel and HBO Documentaries where Numerous Palestinians have called for an end to all Israelies.

Neither side is innocent. But only one side wishes the other to die off.

CliveStaples
February 4th, 2007, 08:30 AM
Israel has a right to exist; so does Palestine. Recognizing that Israel has a right to exist does not mean that one must recognize the supposed moral correctness of things done in the name of preserving Israel's existence.

Also, the comparison to Naitive Americans is rather inept, since the Jews lived in the land of Israel before the Palestinians did (who lived West of mountainous Israel, on the plain next to the Mediterranean).

Snoop
February 9th, 2007, 08:08 PM
I was going to start a thread about this, but the subject matter fits here in this thread. Does anyone think that this 35 acres is crucial to world peace? Does the fact that Abraham preceded Mohamed mean anything?



The compound, combined with the Western Wall, the holiest place in Judaism, which lies below it, is in religious and political terms the most sensitive site in the Arab-Jewish conflict.

Jerusalem's holiest site
Nowhere in Jerusalem is more sensitive or religiously significant than the site is known to Jews as the Temple Mount and to Muslims as Harem al-Sharif, or Noble Sanctuary.
The site, a sprawling compound covering 35 acres of land in East Jerusalem's Old Town, is holy to Jews because it is the location of the First and Second Temple, as well as the rock on which Abraham offered his son as a sacrifice to God.
It is known in Jewish tradition as the "abode of God's presence".
It is also viewed as holy by Muslims, for whom it is the site of the Prophet Mohamed's first prayers and his ascent into heaven. Al Aqsa Mosque is the third holiest site in Islam. Independent Online Edition > Middle East (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2255691.ece)



Mosque Construction Causes Widespread Protests

JERUSALEM, Feb. 8, 2007 — The pictures broadcast from Jerusalem today will no doubt enrage the Arab world.

Violence erupted right after Friday prayers. Israeli soldiers rushed onto the Temple Mount to disperse Palestinian worshippers, including some who threw bottles and stones, who had gathered to condemn the Israeli government's renovation project near the cherished Muslim holy site.

A doctor treating some of the injured, Dr. Khalil el-Baba, said officers fired rubber bullets at protesters, but police denied that.
Riot police with their helmet visors pulled down scuffled with worshippers, some of them middle-aged or elderly. Medics tended several injured people lying on the stone pavement. ABC News: Mosque Construction Causes Widespread Protests (http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=2862361&page=1)

FruitandNut
February 10th, 2007, 05:05 AM
Snoop - The only thing I 'feel' reasonably 'sure' about is that the 35 acres of real estate and land means infinitely less to 'God' than it seems to many of 'we' humans! That goes for a heck of a lot of Muslims, many of whom are under the impression that it was of some importance to Mohammed; which research shows was not the case.

Only the pious believe that Mohammed's visit and night flight are actual, historical events. Mohammed’s visit and Night Flight is more likely a religious myth or dream, not an actual event. The Prophet never actually visited Jerusalem. The Quran speaks not of a visit to Jerusalem, but of a visit to the “farthest mosque.” Scholarly dispute over the event centers around the question of how early the Quranic reference to the “farthest mosque” came to be interpreted as a reference to Jerusalem. There were no mosques in Jerusalem at the time.

The assertion that Muhammad actually visited Jerusalem is a political statement which has the effect of making the groundless assertion in the headline -- that Islam grew in the Levant -- appear to be true. If Mohammed did travel to Jerusalem, if he actually set foot on the Temple Mount, Jerusalem becomes one of the places where the religion of Islam “grew.” Because one of the arguments made by national liberation movements is that formative events in the history of the group claiming sovereignty took place on the land they are claiming, if we accept that the Prophet visited Jerusalem, the Muslim claim to Jerusalem is strengthened, with real political implications. Study shows early Islam to be centred around Mecca and Medina - Jerusalem was just an expansionist afterthought.

It reminds me of the WWI trench battles, when tens of thousands of young men were sacrificed tussling back and forth over a few yards of mud and barbed wire.

As for extremists in Hamas wanting to 'off' the State of Israel and Jews, and even Christians; it goes back to the more volitile stuff in the Qu'ran and Suras that are taken as being the 'perfect' instruction of Allah as given to Mohammed.

Regarding the Jews:

Jews are the enemy of Allah.

Islam is fighting a continuous religious war against the Jews.

The killing of Jews is a religious obligation.

Palestinians are the vanguard in this war against the Jews, and all Islamic nations are obligated to assist in this war.

The Palestinians repeatedly use Islamic sources to defend this religious hatred, even demanding the killing of Jews as a current obligation and the will of Allah. At least four times in recent months, Palestinian religious leaders have taught publicly that the following Hadith (Islamic traditions attributed to Mohammed) is an authoritative directive of Islam today, expressing Allah's will that obedient Moslems kill Jews. According to Sheikh Muhammed Abd al Hadi La'afi, quoted in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida (May 18, 2001), and Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, delivering the main Friday sermon on Palestinian TV (April 13, 2001), the Hadith itself states:

"The Day of Resurrection will not arrive until the Moslems make war against the Jews and kill them, and until a Jew hiding behind a rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: 'Oh Moslem, oh servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!'"

Regarding Israel:

- All of the land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea (which includes all of Israel) is a religious Waqf -- an Islamic religious trust. Any Moslem who relinquishes any part to Israel is damned to Hell.

- All agreements with Israel are inherently temporary in nature, and are signed only because of Israel's temporary balance of power advantage.

- Allah will replace Moslems who shirk their obligation to battle Israel.

- The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.

Islam's War Against the Jews: Quotes from the Palestinian Authority (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Islams_War_Against_the_Jews_Quotes_from_the_Palest inian_Authority.asp)
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It all sounds powerful stuff to broadcast to impressionable minds!
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Then there is the Qu'ranic stuff to feed with baby's milk:

Islam both allows and forbids murder and violence, depending on who is the recipient of the act.

Allowed:

"Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah's religion reigns supreme." (Koran 8:37)

The Koran instructs not to make friendship with Jews and Christians (Koran 5:51)but to war against them: "When the Sacred Months are over, kill those who ascribe partners to God wheresoever ye find them; seize them, encompass them, and ambush them; then if they repent and observe prayer and pay the alms, let them go their way (Koran 4:5). "Fight against those who believe not in God nor in the Last Day, who... refuse allegiance to the True Faith from among those who have received the Book, until they humbly pay tribute out of hand." (Koran 9:29) Note: These verses distinguish between warfare against pagans, and against Jews and Christians.[17]
"...kill the disbelievers wherever we find them" (Koran 2:191): "fight and slay the Pagans, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem" (Koran 9:5); "murder them and treat them harshly" (Koran 9:123).
"Seize ye him, and bind ye him, And burn ye him in the Blazing Fire. Further, make him march in a chain, whereof the length is seventy cubits! This was he that would not believe in Allah Most High. And would not encourage the feeding of the indigent! So no friend hath he here this Day. Nor hath he any food except the corruption from the washing of wounds, Which none do eat but those in sin." (Koran 69:30-37)
"Strike off the heads of the disbelievers"; and after making a "wide slaughter among them, carefully tie up the remaining captives" (Koran 47:4).
"Instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers"; "smite above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them" (Koran 8:12; cp. 8:60).
"O Prophet! strive hard against the unbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern against them. Their abode is Hell - an evil refuge indeed" (Koran 9:73).
"slay or crucify or cut the hands and feet of the unbelievers, that they be expelled from the land with disgrace..." (Koran 5:34).
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Not much here about loving your neighbour, except perhaps if he is a Muslim.

Small wonder that so many Muslims are brainwashed into wanting to 'off' everybody else who won't submit; and where best to start, but on those pesky neighbours - The Jews.

Snoop
February 10th, 2007, 08:52 AM
- Allah will replace Moslems who shirk their obligation to battle Israel.

Islam's War Against the Jews: Quotes from the Palestinian Authority (http://www.aish.com/jewishissues/middleeast/Islams_War_Against_the_Jews_Quotes_from_the_Palest inian_Authority.asp)
Replace them with what??? More moslems??? From where????


- The ultimate destruction of Israel is a certainty.The ultimate destruction of everything is a certainty.

Gaius
February 27th, 2007, 10:03 AM
I messaged one islamic fascists out of curiosity about this very subject, he told me and i quote
"israels borders are not officially recognized by the UN, nor by the majority of the planet and are not even final, and therefore any recognition of "israel" would mean the palestinians would have to recognize the "new borders" every time israel changed the borders as the "wall" clearly demonstrates, its final layout is not known. so if the palestinians recognized israels right to exist today, then israel began building further into palestinian land those lands would become part of israel and the palestinians would have to recognize that"
i told him, well the palestinians shouldnt have moved onto gods chosens people land, and quickly blocked him!