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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    And if the argument here was "someone thinks it is a moral problem that people make less than a living wage" we'd be fine (well except that it is in a debate forum). But the problem is that that...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    If the premises are all subjective and the conclusion subjective, this isn't an argument, its just an explanation of your personal opinion. Your entire OP, in that scenario, changes from defending...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    Well you initially entered the argument into a thread on the MW, which is what that argument is, and put forward that the MW is not enough to support an "acceptable life style." But be that as it...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    Exactly! The argument as offered does not follow (requiring additional premises is the definition of not following).

    In order to tie an objective statement that is true regardless of who is...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    The is/ought difference is not the relevant factor in a subjective vs. objective claim. What you are defining here is the difference between a claim and an opinion.

    It doesn't matter if the...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Fine, then your conclusion doesn't follow. If the premises are subjective, there is no connection to derive that the conclusion should apply objectively.

    For example:

    P1) Steve is allergic...
  7. Thread: Hello!

    by Squatch347
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    Re: Hello!

    Hi Sovietchild, now that you've made a few posts, are you still only able to see a few threads?
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Well no. If one argues they are objective and offers support to that effect they wouldn't be spam.


    If one argued they were subjective, but didn't argue they applied objectively, that would be...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    There are two problem with this response I believe. The first is that it wasn't quite related to what I was arguing. I was arguing that if you are now claiming there is no truth value to the claim...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    That makes sense. I'm going to reorganize my response a bit for clarity as well. I think this debate really comes down to two, somewhat unrelated, areas.


    1) The subjective nature and lack of...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Ouch, I just spend about two hours on this response and...gone.



    I should point out that I offered the Oxford definition below. You offered the Merriam definition.

    The first two parts...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    That you find it "personally find" acceptable is understandable, but largely irrelevant to whether the definition fits or not. I get that you are thinking of another context or sense that you want to...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    I think it is interesting that you picked the second definition rather than the first, which fits the definition I offered earlier:


    subsistence wage


    Ok, your original argument was that the...
  14. Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Returning to a theme earlier in the thread. One of the common myths often trotted out by MW advocates is that companies drive down wages via monopsony power. But as economist Warren Myer points out....
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    I want to start with this because it really is the crux of this disagreement. It seems an odd position to take that you can use a term and offer no definition (especially when you chided me earlier...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    The supporting statement, or the one that stuck with me was the that market wage < MW < Living Wage. I think we dismissed the first clause (Market < MW) for a couple of reasons, but the second...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Your argument is based on a moral obligation. To whit, "that we owe a social safety net to those having a hard time paying for housing, food, and medical care."


    But the argument itself has a...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Ok, so I think we have some agreement that raising the MW won't help because it does price people out of the market. We can at least agree on that point, which was the main thrust of the thread.
    ...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    I agree. The question is, as I think you point out, why? My argument is that part of the problem as to why someone cannot earn a wage is that the MW prices them out of finding a job. The actual MW...
  20. Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Hi DethKnot. I think you are making a great point here. The point of all jobs is not necessarily just wage income. Sometimes it is flexibility in hours (I need to pick up my kid from school) or...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Well, that's a little bit of a "two wrongs make a right fallacy." But regardless, that really isn't the case for condemned houses. Those housing standards are based on professional engineering...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    The level of complexity might be a bit more than you are giving it credit for. We can't simply "hand wave" these questions away. The reason a lot of us are pressing for specifics is because we are...
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    Re: Republican Hypocracies

    Hmm, let's try to net out all the changes.



    1) You are correct that there are an additional 800 jobs (and some ancillaries).

    2) We see a decrease of about 8200 jobs in construction (and...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    A small, initial correction. These aren't really costs, they are prices. It matters a bit because prices are determined differently than most people think. They aren't just "set" by companies that...
  25. Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    I don't think this quite addresses the point (the rule doesn't mean the employee needs to benefit as you suggest either).

    More importantly, the employer and employee have both agreed to set wage...
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    Re: Republican Hypocracies

    Let's walk through the economic consequences chain with a bit more formal structure and you can tell me either where I'm not clear or where you disagree based on economic theory or existing evidence....
  27. Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Apparently I missed this last response. I came back today to add to the thread with some more research, but I'll address the salient points first.




    Well no, he couldn't have because that...
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    Re: Republican Hypocracies

    For both them and Americans. It is important to remember what these are import taxes, paid by Americans, not by the company producing the good.

    We also need to remember that 57% of all imports...
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    Re: Republican Hypocracies

    Fewer jobs and a lower quality of life are a benefit? You and Trump have an odd view of progress.






    I'm assuming it is my connection, but the link seems to send me back to Yahoo's home...
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    Re: Republican Hypocracies

    I understand that, but both by economic definition and by the argument of the "Buy American" crowd it has to be true that reducing the supply of goods available increases the price.

    We are a...
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