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  1. Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    To add to the evidentiary support for this OP, a couple of new studies have come out over the last few months that are relatively novel, one because it was the official government study with...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    This response, and the one below it are simply “nu-uh” claims. Simply reasserting a claim and ignoring the rebuttal doesn’t constitute a response. Do you have any relevant data to add?


    You...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    So any number of people coming together and dealing with morality outside of a religious system constitutes our shared moral system? So when NAMBLA came together and discussed and concluded that...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    Not exactly. I said that under a Deontological ethics system there would likely be a rule like "don't lie." Breaking that rule would generally be an immoral act.

    There would also likely be a...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    Not exactly, I was saying that a deontologist or someone who holds a deontological moral code (IE rules not outcome based) would hold that lying is wrong (the rule). As is letting a murderer murder...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    Well, I would imagine that Deontologists would agree that the action is not morally problematic because of the circumstances, but that that doesn't make the underlying action moral. And all of this...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    That's exactly the point. The immoral act of lying (I think we can all agree that lying isn't morally neutral) leads to moral result, because it is the least immoral act available to you in that...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    I want to start off exploring more about what you mean when you say there is a “secular moral code” and how you know what that code is. You indicated that you knew that “we” (who exactly do you mean...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    First, let me applaud your improved use of hermeneutics. However, you’ve made a slight error here. The original text is in Hebrew, not Greek. Translating from Greek, an indo-european language into...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    I would suggest you need to apply more rigorous hermeneutics to your readings. The Verses mentioned allow for lifetime ownership, they do not mandate it. Hence the term “May.” May means a...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    Well, that does seem to be your position, however, it doesn't appear that you've taken much effort to define the term in the Biblical context. You are appealing to chattel slavery, involuntary, life...
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    Re: Slavery and the bible as a moral guide

    Setting aside MT's correct point that your definition of slavery does not match the Bible's definition, from where do you draw this conclusion? You seem to be appealing to some other moral code here,...
  13. Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    This study was commissioned by the city council and has one of the most robust access to data procedures yet encountered.
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    You explain your premise as subjective. That is what a subjective premise means, that it relates to you. You see it as a problem, not that it is an objective problem, right?

    And the conclusion...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    And if the argument here was "someone thinks it is a moral problem that people make less than a living wage" we'd be fine (well except that it is in a debate forum). But the problem is that that...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    If the premises are all subjective and the conclusion subjective, this isn't an argument, its just an explanation of your personal opinion. Your entire OP, in that scenario, changes from defending...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    Well you initially entered the argument into a thread on the MW, which is what that argument is, and put forward that the MW is not enough to support an "acceptable life style." But be that as it...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    Exactly! The argument as offered does not follow (requiring additional premises is the definition of not following).

    In order to tie an objective statement that is true regardless of who is...
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    Re: The Living Wage and Moral Obligation

    The is/ought difference is not the relevant factor in a subjective vs. objective claim. What you are defining here is the difference between a claim and an opinion.

    It doesn't matter if the...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Fine, then your conclusion doesn't follow. If the premises are subjective, there is no connection to derive that the conclusion should apply objectively.

    For example:

    P1) Steve is allergic...
  21. Thread: Hello!

    by Squatch347
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    Re: Hello!

    Hi Sovietchild, now that you've made a few posts, are you still only able to see a few threads?
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Well no. If one argues they are objective and offers support to that effect they wouldn't be spam.


    If one argued they were subjective, but didn't argue they applied objectively, that would be...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    There are two problem with this response I believe. The first is that it wasn't quite related to what I was arguing. I was arguing that if you are now claiming there is no truth value to the claim...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    That makes sense. I'm going to reorganize my response a bit for clarity as well. I think this debate really comes down to two, somewhat unrelated, areas.


    1) The subjective nature and lack of...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Ouch, I just spend about two hours on this response and...gone.



    I should point out that I offered the Oxford definition below. You offered the Merriam definition.

    The first two parts...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    That you find it "personally find" acceptable is understandable, but largely irrelevant to whether the definition fits or not. I get that you are thinking of another context or sense that you want to...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    I think it is interesting that you picked the second definition rather than the first, which fits the definition I offered earlier:


    subsistence wage


    Ok, your original argument was that the...
  28. Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    Returning to a theme earlier in the thread. One of the common myths often trotted out by MW advocates is that companies drive down wages via monopsony power. But as economist Warren Myer points out....
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    I want to start with this because it really is the crux of this disagreement. It seems an odd position to take that you can use a term and offer no definition (especially when you chided me earlier...
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    Re: Increasing the Minimum Wage hurts those most vulnerable in our society.

    The supporting statement, or the one that stuck with me was the that market wage < MW < Living Wage. I think we dismissed the first clause (Market < MW) for a couple of reasons, but the second...
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