Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Results 1 to 11 of 11
  1. #1
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    El Monte
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like

    The God Who Wasn't There.

    I don't really clear about history of christianity but this video looks prety convincing. I post this topic in Biblical Contradictions because it's should make many contradiction with existence of early bible.









    Please present the fallacy of the Christian history present in this video. And fallacy of the argument as well.
    Dalai Lama:
    I believe the ultimate aim of all human beings is to obtain happiness and a sense of fulfillment. These objectives can be achieved through physical amenities and proper mental development, but the dominant and ultimate factor is the mental aspect. In order to achieve these objectives one must have knowledge about both mind and matter.

  2. #2
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,720
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    Each of these videos plays pretty loosely with the facts and several have outright lies. Paul doesn't believe Jesus is a human being?!? What?!?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  3. #3
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Each of these videos plays pretty loosely with the facts and several have outright lies. Paul doesn't believe Jesus is a human being?!? What?!?
    Pauls letters in the Corinithians are genrally thought to be doctored by Constantine and the rest of the people compiling the bible.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

  4. #4
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    Ah, one of my favorite topics...

    Quote Originally Posted by S
    Paul doesn't believe Jesus is a human being?!? What?!?
    He wasn't alone.

    for we acknowledge also a Son of God. Nor let any one think it ridiculous that God should have a Son. For though the poets, in their fictions, represent the gods as no better than men, our mode of thinking is not the same as theirs, concerning either God the Father or the Son. But the Son of God is the Logos of the Father, in idea and in operation; for after the pattern of Him and by Him were all things made, the Father and the Son being one. And, the Son being in the Father and the Father in the Son, in oneness and power of spirit, the understanding and reason (nous kai logos) of the Father is the Son of God. But if, in your surpassing intelligence, it occurs to you to inquire what is meant by the Son, I will state briefly that He is the first product of the Father, not as having been brought into existence (for from the beginning, God, who is the eternal mind [nous], had the Logos in Himself, being from eternity instinct with Logos [logikos]; but inasmuch as He came forth to be the idea and energizing power of all material things,

    The above is written by Athenagoras (ca 133-190). It's from part of his essay titled "A plea for the Christians". It was submitted to the emperor of Rome and to the Alexandrian church to try to explain Christianity. The bolded section is the closest he comes to mentioning Jesus. He never mentions him by name, doesn't mention any of Jesus' alleged life events and treats Jesus as though he exists in a purely spiritual realm.

    In addition, we have Philo of Alexandria (ca 20 bce - 50 ce). We know he lived during the period Jesus allegedly existed. We know he was a hellenized Jewish philosopher. We know he visited Judea and hung out with Pilate as well as the early Essenes (individuals now thought of as some of the earliest Chrisitans). Had there been an incarnate godman executed by Pilate, Philo absolutely should make some mention of this either directly ("I saw Jesus!") or indirectly ("All these people won't shut up about Jesus.").

    We see neither. Philo fails utterly to mention the alleged godman.

    Christians have a variety of reasons for this silence all of which involve shooting themselves in the foot. The more they argue Philo wouldn't have taken notice of Jesus, the more illogical it becomes that anyone living after the fact would be compelled to believe Jesus existed.

    There are a host of other problems the film doesn't go into like the fact there's not a shred of evidence any of the disciples existed, the real reason Constantine embraced Christianity, and many others.

    The Jesus of the gospels is a work of fiction.

    --------------------------

    Sources

    Athenagoras of Athens: A Plea for the Christians

    Welcome to Enlightenment! Religion–the Tragedy of Mankind - Articles by Kenneth Humphreys

  5. #5
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    El Monte
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    Until today I don't see any rebuttle.

    Please any one, I need ballance opinion and counter evidence.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    2nd tought, after I read the rule, I think this topic inappropriate for Biblical Contradictions. Apologize to moderator and I am welcome if this topic removed. But I hope this topic can be moved to more appropriate room.
    Last edited by Nagasena; May 17th, 2007 at 09:06 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    Dalai Lama:
    I believe the ultimate aim of all human beings is to obtain happiness and a sense of fulfillment. These objectives can be achieved through physical amenities and proper mental development, but the dominant and ultimate factor is the mental aspect. In order to achieve these objectives one must have knowledge about both mind and matter.

  6. #6
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Sheffield, S.Yorks., UK
    Posts
    8,862
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    I am getting personally a little weary at present of going through all the arguments for and against the existence and nature of Jesus. Put it down to old age and the growing reality that people just don't percieve all the same way. What I will do is point you to an interesting site that argues the historicity of Jesus' existence, and that He was someone who stood out from the crowd - from non-Christian and hostile source(s).
    The Real Jesus Christ

    Zhav argues that the Jesus is a pure 'Dreamworks' presentation. I argue that there was/is some polishing and touching up of a very real and remarkable phenomenon.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    El Monte
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    I post it here

    So far it's claimed that Christian Jesus existence only supported by Gospel it self but here claimed that Talmud Script also mention about Jesus. But is Talmud's Jesus = Gospel's Jesus

    The Real Jesus Christ

    Some people claim that Jesus Christ never existed. Allegedly the life of Jesus and the Gospel are merely myths fabricated by the Church. This claim rests mainly upon their belief that there is no historical record of Jesus.

    This lack of secular reports should not be too surprising for modern Christians. First, only a small fraction of the written records survived those twenty centuries. Secondly, there were few, if any, journalists in Palestine during the time of Jesus. Thirdly, the Romans saw the Jewish people as merely one of many ethnic groups that needed to be tolerated. The Romans held the Jewish people in low regard. Finally the Jewish leaders were also eager to forget about Jesus. Secular writers only took notice after Christianity became popular and began to disturb their lifestyle.

    Even though early secular reports on Jesus may have been rare, there are still a few surviving references to Him. Not too surprisingly, the earliest non-Christian reports were made by the Jews. Flavius Josephus, who lived until 98 A.D., was a romanized Jewish historian. He wrote books on Jewish history for the Roman people. In his book, Jewish Antiquities, he made references to Jesus. In one reference he wrote:

    About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders. [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]

    Even though several different forms of this particular text have survived through the twenty centuries, they all agree with the above cited version. This version is considered to be the closest to the original - the least suspected of Christian text-tampering. Elsewhere in this book, Josephus also reported the execution of St. John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2] and St. James the Just [XX 9.1], even referring to James as "the brother of Jesus who was called Christ." It should be noted that the past tense in the clause, "Jesus who was called Christ," argues against Christian text-tampering since a Christian would prefer to write instead, "Jesus who is called Christ."

    Another Jewish source, the Talmud, makes several historical references to Jesus. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, the Talmud is "the collection of ancient Rabbinic writings consisting of the Mishnah and the Gemara, constituting the basis of religious authority for traditional Judaism." Although not explicitly referred to by name, later rabbis identify the person as Jesus. These references to Jesus are neither sympathetic to Him or His Church. Also these writings were preserved through the centuries by Jews, so Christians cannot be accused of tampering with the text.

    The Talmud makes note of Jesus' miracles. No attempt is made to deny them, but it ascribes them to magical arts from Egypt. Also His crucifixion is dated as "on the eve of the Feast of the Passover" in agreement with the Gospel (Luke 22:1ff; John 19:31ff). Similar again to the Gospel (Matt. 27:51), the Talmud records the earthquake and the tearing in two of the Temple curtain during the time of Jesus' death. Josephus in his book, The Jewish War, also confirmed these events.

    By the beginning of the 2nd century, Romans were writing about Christians and Jesus. Pliny the Younger, proconsul in Asia Minor, in 111 A.D. wrote to Emperor Trajan in a letter:

    ...it was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and recite by turns a form of words to Christ as a god; and that they bound themselves with an oath, not for any crime, but not to commit theft or robbery, or adultery, not to break their word, and not to deny a deposit when demanded. After this was done, their custom was to depart, and meet again to take food... [Pliny, Epistle 97]

    Special attention should be made to the phrase, "to Christ as a god," an early secular witness to the belief in Christ's divinity (John 20:28; Phil. 2:6). Also it is interesting to compare this passage with Acts 20:7-11, a biblical account of an early Christian Sunday celebration.

    Next the Roman historian, Tacitus, who is respected by modern scholars for historical accuracy, wrote in 115 A.D. about Christ and His Church:

    The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]

    Even with disdain for the Christian faith, Tacitus still treated the execution of Christ as historical fact, drawing connections to Roman events and leaders. (cf. Luke 3:1ff)

    Other secular witnesses to the historical Jesus include Suetonius in his biography of Claudius, Phlegan recording the eclipse of the sun during Jesus' death and even Celsus, a pagan philosopher. It must be kept in mind that most of these sources were not only secular but anti-Christian. These secular authors, including the Jewish writers, had no desire or intention to promote Christianity. They had no motivation to distort their reports in favor of Christianity. Pliny actually punished Christians for their faith. If Jesus were a myth or His execution a hoax, Tacitus would have reported it as such. He certainly would not have connected Jesus' execution to Roman leaders. These writers presented Jesus as a real historical person. Denying the reliability of these sources in connection to Jesus would cast serious suspicion on the rest of ancient history.

    Now these ancient secular writings do not prove that Jesus is the Son of God or even the Christ, but that is not the goal of this tract. These reports show that a virtuous person named Jesus did live in the early first century A.D. and authored a religious movement (which still exists today). This Person was at least called Christ - the Messiah. Christians in the first century also appeared to consider Him God. Finally these writings support other facts found in the Bible surrounding His life. The claim that Jesus never existed and His life is a myth compromises the reliability of ancient history.


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NIHIL OBSTAT:
    Reverend M. James Divis, S.T.L.
    Censor Librorum

    IMPRIMATUR:
    Most Reverend Fabian W. Bruskewitz, D.D., S.T.D.
    Bishop of Lincoln

    July 20, 1993

    The NIHIL OBSTAT and IMPRIMATUR are official declarations that a book or a pamphlet is free from doctrinal or moral error. No implication is contained therein that those who have granted the NIHIL OBSTAT and IMPRIMATUR agree with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed.

    __________________________________

    A Catholic Response, Inc.
    P.O. Box 84272
    Lincoln, NE 68501-4272
    Dalai Lama:
    I believe the ultimate aim of all human beings is to obtain happiness and a sense of fulfillment. These objectives can be achieved through physical amenities and proper mental development, but the dominant and ultimate factor is the mental aspect. In order to achieve these objectives one must have knowledge about both mind and matter.

  8. #8
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    What a terrible and dishonest essay?

    Like most apologists, the author is laboring under a few misconceptions:
    • It's acceptable to conclude 'if Christians existed then there must have been a Christ.' This is an intellectually honest as stating, "If there are UFO enthusiasts there must be UFO's." or "Since there is a flat-earth society, the earth must be flat." They do not allow for any other more rational explanation such as the whole thing was a scam.
    • Writers who mention Christians should be counted as writers mentioning Jesus. Again, this is as asinine as stating "We know bigfoot exists because I met a guy who said he believes in bigfoot."
    • It's perfectly acceptable to fail to mention the fact the early church doctored much of Josephus' key writing. It's also perfectly acceptable to omit the fact Josephus mentions many Jesuses (Jesi?)... rabble rousing rabbis of the first century and the century before that. These extra Jesuses are the basis for the gospel myth.
    • It's also perfectly acceptable to not ask "what was the source of this author's knowledge?" or "How did they know what they claimed to know?" For example, apologists appeal to Tacitus' accuracy as a historian, but are always at a loss to account for how Tacitus would have known anything about Jesus living in the second century. It's very obvious to the unbiased that Tacitus is simply the first of many to see Christians and assume there was a Christ... Besides, Tacitus himself describes Christianity as a 'pernicous superstition', but for some reason Christians tend to ignore that bit & suspend their appeals to his historical accuracy.



    As you can see, there's nothing compelling in the article. Just a collection of propagandas dressed up as the truth.

  9. #9
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    El Monte
    Posts
    420
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    In video presented that there 40 year gap that no body remember about jesus. I don't think it's true. At least 12 appostle and other evangelist new testament composer like Luke, still remain alife to preserve and passing the history of Jesus.

    The odd I see here about 4 Gospel is there are only 2 from 12 apostles (Jesus choice), I don't know why Christian Church choose gospel of mark and luke instead of Thomas which is one of 12 apostles.
    Dalai Lama:
    I believe the ultimate aim of all human beings is to obtain happiness and a sense of fulfillment. These objectives can be achieved through physical amenities and proper mental development, but the dominant and ultimate factor is the mental aspect. In order to achieve these objectives one must have knowledge about both mind and matter.

  10. #10
    Administrator

    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fairfax, VA
    Posts
    10,720
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    Quote Originally Posted by eliotitus View Post
    Pauls letters in the Corinithians are genrally thought to be doctored by Constantine and the rest of the people compiling the bible.
    Thats the first I've heard of that, any citation?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  11. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,151
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: The God Who Wasn't There.

    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Why I am no longer a Christian
    By Trendem in forum Religion
    Replies: 118
    Last Post: December 3rd, 2007, 03:11 PM
  2. Can God perform immoral acts?
    By omegaprimate in forum Religion
    Replies: 117
    Last Post: September 15th, 2006, 04:25 PM
  3. Christian God... An Abomination?
    By tismdarkling in forum Religion
    Replies: 35
    Last Post: May 11th, 2006, 06:22 PM
  4. The High Cost of Being
    By Dionysus in forum Religion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: August 28th, 2005, 02:22 AM
  5. Challenge to Atheists: Is atheism more open-minded?
    By Xanadu Moo in forum Philosophical Debates
    Replies: 104
    Last Post: April 13th, 2005, 04:53 AM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •