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  1. #1
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    Global warming...?

    I have studied this a little bit in the past few months, mainly because I find it to be a hugely interesting area of science. It's something that I've always been skeptical on, mainly because I was raised conservative; but I started looking into it. I went to a seminar on global warming at my school, I watched "An Inconvenient Truth," and I studied some of the theories on Carbon emissions.

    But, as I studied further, I noticed there was a dangerous trend in the amount of evidence I saw compiled to support such a theory; when you attempt to talk to people about the issue, I noticed how polarized and adamant they were. I listen to one person call another person a moron for believing that it did not exist, and visa versa. This became a red flag for me; another red flag was the fact that I had only seen a few graphs cited as evidence, and the rest of their arguments happened to be how all the polar bears were all dying, the monstrosity of the situation --40 feet in Britain, all of Florida will become consumed, New York will disappear-- and I really started to get revolted. Science is never about shock value and fear factor (Otherwise defined as appeals to emotion); it is about calm, rational discussion and debate amongst a gathering of peers.

    My final red flag was when I started to hear people say stupid things like: "Wow, these storms are getting so bad! Man, how can anyone not believe in global warming?" According to global warming, the shifts should be small; back in 2005, I wanted to study this issue because I remember hearing people state: "How can anyone not believe in global warming? What do you think Katrina was?"


    So after hearing all of this, I finally sat down and watched another movie, one by the opponent's of man-made global warming, the video "The Global Warming Swindle." Honestly, a lot more things began to make sense to me after watching this. They put on scientists and not politicians; they presents loads of scientific data; they talked about scientific facts that I had learned in chemistry and physics, and they made, in my opinion, a far stronger case.


    So, my final question is: I know people on this forum, like Chad and Zhavric, support the theory; but I am not interested in opinions anymore, I want to know if anyone has any conclusive counter-arguments to this video, and if they have any solid factual backing that man-made (And not sun-spot/cyclic) global warming exists. So, do you?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  2. #2
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    Re: Global warming...?

    I refer you to previous posts, including ones I put up supporting the contention - that by overlaying a graph of natural 'pollution' against 'warming' and a graph representing 'industrial man' pollution only, we get a remarkable 'fit' of the overall picture of global temperatures in the past 150 plus years.

    GP - not everyone will believe the nature of what is happening - it is not in human nature for everyone to agree. Can I just refer you to Gaius on that score!

    Global warming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Human Population and Global Warming
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  3. #3
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    I refer you to previous posts, including ones I put up supporting the contention - that by overlaying a graph of natural 'pollution' against 'warming' and a graph representing 'industrial man' pollution only, we get a remarkable 'fit' of the overall picture of global temperatures in the past 150 plus years.

    GP - not everyone will believe the nature of what is happening - it is not in human nature for everyone to agree. Can I just refer you to Gaius on that score!

    Global warming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Human Population and Global Warming
    The wikipedia and a private blog are not factual representations of a scientific issue, it is necessary to use peer reviewed scientific data at minimum.

    Every time I submitted actual proofs it is countered with wiki, and media. Sorry this is a non- issue for me, and should be for sane humans.

  4. #4
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    Re: Global warming...?

    "The Global Warming Swindle."
    This doc falsified and fudged its data in enormous ways. There are multiple links out there showing how they'd mess with scales, drop out 20 years of data, etc. etc. to twist information.

    There's also a big problem with the creators, but that's not itself a disproof, just a warning flag that the information they provide should be very carefully examined.

    I'm not saying to pass on your skepticism on the issue, but this documentary is in no way a credible information source.
    Skepticism need not equal cynicism.

  5. #5
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    I refer you to previous posts, including ones I put up supporting the contention - that by overlaying a graph of natural 'pollution' against 'warming' and a graph representing 'industrial man' pollution only, we get a remarkable 'fit' of the overall picture of global temperatures in the past 150 plus years.

    GP - not everyone will believe the nature of what is happening - it is not in human nature for everyone to agree. Can I just refer you to Gaius on that score!

    Global warming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Human Population and Global Warming
    It's not a question of agreeing and human nature; logic, evidence, and analysis are designed to overcome these human weaknesses.

    So far, I'm seeing contradicting models on the two sides. Which makes me more suspicious, because you typically don't see this type of crap until right before an election.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rorgg
    This doc falsified and fudged its data in enormous ways. There are multiple links out there showing how they'd mess with scales, drop out 20 years of data, etc. etc. to twist information.

    There's also a big problem with the creators, but that's not itself a disproof, just a warning flag that the information they provide should be very carefully examined.

    I'm not saying to pass on your skepticism on the issue, but this documentary is in no way a credible information source.
    Link, please?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  6. #6
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    Re: Global warming...?

    GP - It ain't just an election issue over here. Anyway time will tell who has it right - only by then of course, it may well be a tad late!
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  7. #7
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    My final red flag was when I started to hear people say stupid things like: "Wow, these storms are getting so bad! Man, how can anyone not believe in global warming?" According to global warming, the shifts should be small; back in 2005, I wanted to study this issue because I remember hearing people state: "How can anyone not believe in global warming? What do you think Katrina was?"
    Yeah, some people who don't understand it can make some relatively ignorant comments. But we shouldn't judge the theory as a whole on the basis of a few radicals who don't understand it. Otherwise, evolution would've been debunked years ago by the proponents of "abrupt evolution"...

    Anyway, I just wanted to offer that one short comment; I'm not interested, for the time being, in getting into a whole global warming debate. I accept the theory, of course, because I feel I've seen overwhelming proof for it. But the debate'll have to wait for another day...
    [CENTER]-=] Starcreator [=-

  8. #8
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Link, please?
    Sure, this was pretty major news when it came out.

    RealClimate » Swindled! Aldatıldık!
    Digg - The real global warming swindle - distorted graphs

    in a rush, I can find more later. The London Times (?) I think busted them on it.
    Skepticism need not equal cynicism.

  9. #9
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    Re: Global warming...?

    I remember once in college we had a relatively strong proponent of Quantum Gravity (pretty much replaced with string theory now), he used the 'consensus' argument, quantum gravity being almost a consensus at the time. The professor's explanation was telling. He said; "When you hear there is a consensus on this or that subject, worry."
    I believe its also telling (as GP mentioned) that proponents immediately move to name calling when dissent is mentioned.
    As I posted on another thread, feel free to look at this U.S. Congressional article, interesting. .: U.S. Senate Committee on Environment and Public Works :: Minority Page :.

    And another issue, why are we worrying about the sea level possibly rising by 3 or 4 centimeters in 80 years (UN Climate report)? We have much more pressing problems here and now, problems we can deal with.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  10. #10
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    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
    Disclaimer: This information is being provided for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only.

  11. #11
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rorgg View Post
    Sure, this was pretty major news when it came out.

    RealClimate » Swindled! Aldatıldık!
    Digg - The real global warming swindle - distorted graphs

    in a rush, I can find more later. The London Times (?) I think busted them on it.
    Both of those sites are personal blogs, and non- reviewed information.

  12. #12
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Less dimming means more warming ...

    Relationship to global warming


    Further information: Global warming
    Some scientists now consider that the effects of global dimming have masked the effect of global warming to some extent and that resolving global dimming may therefore lead to increases in predictions of future temperature rise.[14] According to Beate Liepert, "We lived in a global warming plus a global dimming world and now we are taking out global dimming. So we end up with the global warming world, which will be much worse than we thought it will be, much hotter."[37] The magnitude of this masking effect is one of the central problems in climate change with significant implications for future climate changes and policy responses to global warming.[38]
    But it's much more complicated than an either warming or dimming issue. Global warming and global dimming are not mutually exclusive or contradictory. In a paper published March 8 in the American Geophysical Union's Geophysical Research Letters, a research team led by Anastasia Romanou of Columbia University's Department of Applied Physics and Mathematics, New York, also showed that the apparently opposing forces of global warming and global dimming can occur at the same time.[39] Global dimming interacts with global warming by blocking sunlight that would otherwise cause evaporation and the particulates bind to water droplets. Water vapor is one of the greenhouse gases. On the other hand, global dimming is affected by evaporation and rain. Rain has the effect of clearing out polluted skies.
    Climatologists are stressing that the roots of both global dimming causing pollutants and global warming causing greenhouse gases have to be dealt with together and soon.[40]

    Global dimming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Last edited by Snoop; May 17th, 2007 at 04:16 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
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  13. #13
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Quote Originally Posted by wannaextreme View Post
    Both of those sites are personal blogs, and non- reviewed information.
    Actually, no, one's a news site and one's a collective site on climatology, but I found the original story, which you could have found as well, as both actually linked directly to it:

    The Independent (UK) Newspaper
    Skepticism need not equal cynicism.

  14. #14
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Curious Rorgg if you could respond to this, Is Global Warming a Sin? (You're not going to believe this!!!)
    from the nation of all sources!
    "As Hertzberg readily acknowledges, the CO2 content of the atmosphere has increased about 21 percent in the past century. The world has also been getting just a little warmer. The not-very-reliable data on the world's average temperature (which omit data from most of the world's oceans and remote regions, while overrepresenting urban areas) show about a 0.5 degree Celsius increase between 1880 and 1980, and still rising. But is CO2, at 380 ppm in the atmosphere, playing a significant role in retaining the 94 percent of solar radiation that the atmosphere absorbs, as against water vapor, also a powerful heat absorber, whose content in a humid tropical atmosphere can be as high as 20,000 ppm? As Hertzberg says, water in the form of oceans, snow, ice cover, clouds and vapor "is overwhelming in the radiative and energy balance between the Earth and the sun.... Carbon dioxide and the greenhouse gases are, by comparison, the equivalent of a few farts in a hurricane." And water is exactly that component of the Earth's heat balance that the global warming computer models fail to account for."

    Or this site; Scientists opposing the mainstream scientific assessment of global warming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  15. #15
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    Re: Global warming...?

    I'll hit it in full later, but if the argument is, "there was a lot more CO2 in the atmosphere in the Pleistocene Era, and it wasn't really hot then," one rational response is that the land masses were in a significantly different arrangement at that time, which effects global climate patterns immensely.

    Don't be so quick to pidgeonhole my opinion on this, by the way -- I don't think that global warming is incontrovertible fact. I'll cover my view on it later. The point was, in any case, that that Channel 4 documentary was absolute rubbish and is not a source for information.

    For what it's worth, I think Gore's doc has some significant issues with it as well, and I'd triple-check before depending on anything from that to build a case as well.
    Skepticism need not equal cynicism.

  16. #16
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Certainly though it is closer facts wise than the abortion that was Inconvenient Truth. Can't wait for your reply, and since I forgot earlier, welcome Rorgg, glad you are with us.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  17. #17
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop View Post
    Global dimming interacts with global warming by blocking sunlight that would otherwise cause evaporation and the particulates bind to water droplets. Water vapor is one of the greenhouse gases. On the other hand, global dimming is affected by evaporation and rain. Rain has the effect of clearing out polluted skies.
    Climatologists are stressing that the roots of both global dimming causing pollutants and global warming causing greenhouse gases have to be dealt with together and soon.[40]

    Global dimming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    Could someone please address this so I can sleep peacefully tonight. I see several possibilities for the near future:

    • dim and hot
    • dim and cold
    • bright and hot
    • bright and cold
    Which is the best/worst scenerio? Can we trust nature to retain the equalibrium?
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
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  18. #18
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop View Post
    Can we trust nature to retain the equalibrium?
    I think its been doing quite a good job for the last oh 3 billion years.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #19
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I think its been doing quite a good job for the last oh 3 billion years.
    Yea, I guess - except for the occasional extinction.
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  20. #20
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    Re: Global warming...?

    Those species probably had it coming, you know for being gay or something as Gaius might say.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


 

 
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