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  1. #1
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    Pro Choice For Whom?

    I find the slogan in the attached graphic to be off the mark. Take a look at it a second and then come back....

    .
    .

    ~~INTERMISSION~~

    [buy popcorn][buy popcorn][yummy popcorn]

    .
    .

    OK, we're back now. Notice the slant of the statement? "Not yours!" Wonder if they realize that it's just as much a reference to the shared ownership of the baby as it is to anyone else, and actually moreso, since the baby is directly involved.

    Also, isn't it a rather selfish approach? MY body. MY sexuality. MY uterus. MY vagina. MY morals (eh?). MY life (oh, really? try lives).

    In fact, it no longer became just about you once you decided to fertilize. It's no longer in the singular. 'I' has become 'we'.

    Saying it's all about me is the epitome of egocentrism. Why doesn't the baby get a choice too?

    And aren't half of all babies female? Don't they have their own female body parts too? What about those women's rights?

    So the underlying thrust is, "It's my body, little baby, not yours. It's my life, little baby, not yours."
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  2. #2
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Uhm...

    Baby's don't have a lot of opinions, or so I'm told. Secondly, you have to be 18 to consent to anything.

    Yeah, it's egocentric, but what are ya gonna do? The only one with the fully developed brain is in charge...
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  3. #3
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    The question comes down, quite simply, to this:

    Does the baby (fetus, whatever) have the right to life (and choice, and all that good stuff)?

    Us pro-choicers say "no". You pro-lifers say "yes". That's it. That's the only point of disagreement. In that sense, you are right that the graphic is off the mark; it does not address the fundamental question, but merely asserts a far less important issue (which would, as you noted, be rendered fallacious by an unfavorable answer to the real question)
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
    Faith - Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge about things without parallel - Ambrose Bierce

  4. #4
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    Also, isn't it a rather selfish approach? MY body. MY sexuality. MY uterus. MY vagina. MY morals (eh?). MY life (oh, really? try lives).
    I've never thought it "selfish" to want control over your own body and reproductive system, but I suppose the religious right's push for moral collectivism really never stops anywhere, eh?

    The premise underlying your whole post is that a fetus is a person, and has a right to life. But that's not an objective conclusion, it's a moral opinion. And as far as I'm concerned, her moral opinions govern her body.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xan
    In fact, it no longer became just about you once you decided to fertilize. It's no longer in the singular. 'I' has become 'we'.
    In your opinion, given that you believe a fetus is a person. But her body is governed by her morals, not yours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xan
    Saying it's all about me is the epitome of egocentrism. Why doesn't the baby get a choice too?

    And aren't half of all babies female? Don't they have their own female body parts too? What about those women's rights?
    If a zygote is a baby, then sure. But your opinion that it is doesn't make it so.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xan
    So the underlying thrust is, "It's my body, little baby, not yours. It's my life, little baby, not yours."
    I think it was a pretty nice ad, though undoubtedly it made use of a great deal of emotional appeal, as one would expect. The underlying idea was more like, "My morals govern my body" (with the implicit argument that whether a fetus is a person is a moral question).


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    Us pro-choicers say "yes". You pro-lifers say "no".
    Other way around .
    Last edited by starcreator; May 25th, 2007 at 04:06 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    [CENTER]-=] Starcreator [=-

  5. #5
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starcreator
    Other way around .
    Heh... Fixed.
    Freedom is you choosing for yourself. Law is the government choosing for you. The two are opposites.

    Pray - To ask that the laws of the universe be annulled in behalf of a single petitioner confessedly unworthy - Ambrose Bierce
    Faith - Belief without evidence in what is told by one who speaks without knowledge about things without parallel - Ambrose Bierce

  6. #6
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish View Post
    Uhm...

    Baby's don't have a lot of opinions, or so I'm told. Secondly, you have to be 18 to consent to anything.

    Yeah, it's egocentric, but what are ya gonna do? The only one with the fully developed brain is in charge...
    Don't all living things have the desire to preserve their existence? Sounds like an opinion to me.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  7. #7
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Don't all living things have the desire to preserve their existence? Sounds like an opinion to me.
    Living things with a developed brain, yes. I work with people whose brains don't work so well. Not all them have the desire to preserve their existance. They don't understand the concept.

    If an adult can be so afflicted, it's hard for me to make an argument for a blastocyst..
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  8. #8
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Actually, all living things have a desire to preserve their existance, its a basic function of nature. Its why they fight back when you catch them, or run from being eaten.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  9. #9
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    I've never been a large fan of abortion; it's not really murder, I don't think anyways, in the first trimester. After if goes out from there, I dislike the idea.

    If you start talking about partial birth abortion, I stop listening. I may have somewhat more flexible morals than those of, eh, more rigid standards, but I certainly don't condone drilling a hole through an otherwise sentient being's skull to suck their brains out.

    As far as killing a few cells --which neither feel nor have sentience-- I don't think that bothers me.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  10. #10
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Actually, all living things have a desire to preserve their existance, its a basic function of nature. Its why they fight back when you catch them, or run from being eaten.
    You would think so, wouldn't you? I dunno though. I've seen some pretty impaired people in my day.

    I guess given a normative value of "desire to preserve existance" your statement is largely true.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    I've never been a large fan of abortion; it's not really murder, I don't think anyways, in the first trimester. After if goes out from there, I dislike the idea.

    If you start talking about partial birth abortion, I stop listening. I may have somewhat more flexible morals than those of, eh, more rigid standards, but I certainly don't condone drilling a hole through an otherwise sentient being's skull to suck their brains out.

    As far as killing a few cells --which neither feel nor have sentience-- I don't think that bothers me.
    I agree. I have some qualms about it, just not sure that I should have the right to tell people what to do with their lives...
    Last edited by Slipnish; May 25th, 2007 at 06:35 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  11. #11
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish View Post
    Living things with a developed brain, yes. I work with people whose brains don't work so well. Not all them have the desire to preserve their existance. They don't understand the concept.

    If an adult can be so afflicted, it's hard for me to make an argument for a blastocyst..
    Blastocysts don't have brains.

    Even embryos don't have a brain. You all call it a brain, but it's technically a 'neural cluster' - a bunch of neurons firing randomly. The brain stem, the part of the brain where the consciousness resides, isn't even developed until late pregnancy.
    "What's so wrong about mentioning how attractive she is? That said, i don't think "Begin East Euro Fap" is an appropriate way to say shes attractive."

  12. #12
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by pikatore View Post
    Blastocysts don't have brains.

    Even embryos don't have a brain. You all call it a brain, but it's technically a 'neural cluster' - a bunch of neurons firing randomly. The brain stem, the part of the brain where the consciousness resides, isn't even developed until late pregnancy.
    My point exactly...
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  13. #13
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    So sentience is the requirement? If so, what about the people that Slipnish works with? (forgive me, I don't know the exact details of your work, but I think we see what I'm getting at). It could certainly be argued that some of them are sentient right? Are they less deserving of life?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  14. #14
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    So sentience is the requirement? If so, what about the people that Slipnish works with? (forgive me, I don't know the exact details of your work, but I think we see what I'm getting at). It could certainly be argued that some of them are sentient right? Are they less deserving of life?
    To be honest, I have to agree with the picture and the prose on this one. It is the woman's choice and if our federal government is to stay engaged in the legality (or lack of) when ruling on abortion, our high court should be at least half female to better represent the true concerns of females in this country. This is a major issue when it comes down to that. A man can never understand the responsibility of what the woman has to go through physically, the same type of bond is not made to the father. The woman HAS to deal with it terms of caring a child to full term; any man can easily run off. He can better understand this over time through being very involved as a father who REALLY helps to raise the child but the man DOES not have to physically deal with the pregnancy. There is nothing selfish about this.

    The development of the fertilized egg happens on a progressive, aggregate scale. There is no...TA DA...behold, a person. Now, if you want to speak about the second and third tri-mesters and that fetus is totally healthy then the female probably has some real problems if the really are considering an abortion.

    The idea and aesthetic of a sentient being is quite relative depending on culture and religious ideology.
    Liberty: One of Imagination's most precious possessions.
    ---Ambrose Bierce

    Love: A temporary insanity curable by marriage. ---Ambrose Bierce

  15. #15
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    MY body. MY sexuality. MY uterus. MY vagina. MY morals (eh?). MY life
    My body- not everyone elses
    My uterus- not everyone elses
    My vagina- not everyone elses
    My morals- not everyone elses
    My life- not everone elses
    My Choice- Not everyone elses

    Now would I have an abortion myself if I could get pregnant? I don't think I would but it really depends on the situation, but right now I will say no I wouldn't. However it is not my place to tell another woman what she should or shouldn't do with her body and her life. I could give her my opinion but it is not my place to tell her what to do, it is her choice and she will be the one who will have to live with the choice she makes.
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
    "Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

  16. #16
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    I'm not so extreme to say the fetus has rights, but for me, it comes down to responsibility.

    It was your body that you allowed that loser lowlife one night stand to touch. It was your body that was all horned up who wanted to get laid. It was your uterus that the sperm swam to because you let the guy ejaculate in you. It was your vagina that you allowed the penis to penetrate. It was your morals that allowed you to have irresponsible sex in the first place that got you pregnant. Yet, it is also your morals that allow you to shirk your responsibility and accountability.

    I have the mindset that unless the birth control you use is abstinence, then you are responsible for ANY AND ALL consequences of having sex. If your partner has HIV and doesn't tell you and uses a condom and it breaks and you get HIV, it's not like you get to say, "But I was safe! He didn't tell me! It's his fault! I get to get rid of the HIV because it wasn't my fault!" See? It doesn't work that way. The same with babies, IMO.

    It's easy for a woman to cry, "It's my body and my right!" But it sweeps the dirty little irresponsible secret of having had sex in the first place under the carpet.

    Excluded from my rant for the most part are victims of rape or the mentally ill who do not have a decision-making compass or mothers who lives are in danger if they carried the pregnancy to term.
    Souls of the animal kingdom: eagle, fox, bottle-nose dolphin, octopus, house cat. Okay, let's jump this jump. -- Rod Kimble

  17. #17
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by cat's meow View Post
    The woman HAS to deal with it terms of caring a child to full term; any man can easily run off.
    This is a complete copout. Women can run off just as easily today, my wife ran off while I was deployed and left my kid with her parents, so now he gets to live with me. And unfortunately its a far from isolated story in my profession
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  18. #18
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyLady View Post
    I'm not so extreme to say the fetus has rights, but for me, it comes down to responsibility.

    It was your body that you allowed that loser lowlife one night stand to touch. It was your body that was all horned up who wanted to get laid. It was your uterus that the sperm swam to because you let the guy ejaculate in you. It was your vagina that you allowed the penis to penetrate. It was your morals that allowed you to have irresponsible sex in the first place that got you pregnant. Yet, it is also your morals that allow you to shirk your responsibility and accountability.

    I have the mindset that unless the birth control you use is abstinence, then you are responsible for ANY AND ALL consequences of having sex. If your partner has HIV and doesn't tell you and uses a condom and it breaks and you get HIV, it's not like you get to say, "But I was safe! He didn't tell me! It's his fault! I get to get rid of the HIV because it wasn't my fault!" See? It doesn't work that way. The same with babies, IMO.

    It's easy for a woman to cry, "It's my body and my right!" But it sweeps the dirty little irresponsible secret of having had sex in the first place under the carpet.

    Excluded from my rant for the most part are victims of rape or the mentally ill who do not have a decision-making compass or mothers who lives are in danger if they carried the pregnancy to term.
    For me if a woman is irresponsible while having sex then she should be woman enough to take responsibilty. If a woman keeps getting pregnant then keeps having an aborption that is screwed up. IMO that is wrong.
    However it is not my place to tell another person how they should live their life.
    If they are irresponsible while having sex and get pregnant and can't abort it, then the chances are higher that when it is born the baby will be abused and/or abandoned.
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
    "Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

  19. #19
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    I gotta agree with the pro-lifers here. It may be YOUR body, but YOUR body, at the moment of the conception, is now a "Life support system" to the little Schiavo inside you.

    Granted, I'll never support legislature to decide on abortion either way (it's a matter of individual responsibility), but the way I look at it, if you don't want a child, don't have sex. Or have protected sex. EIther way, penis in vagina presents the option of child rearing. Accept the responsibility or don't.

    The entire pro choice slogan can be summed with the slogan on the old T-shirt Hell shirt: Now that I'm safe I'm pro-choice.
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  20. #20
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    Re: Pro Choice For Whom?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    If they are irresponsible while having sex and get pregnant and can't abort it, then the chances are higher that when it is born the baby will be abused and/or abandoned.

    Eh, I'm kind of on the fence, but lean mostly with women only having that right under extreme conditions, such as rape or endangered life, etc... Keep your legs closed, get a vibrator. Maybe we'd have a few less STDs and less promiscuity if it was more difficult for people to erase their mistakes.

    Two wrongs don't make a right. Saying that an unwanted child has a higher likelihood of being abused or abandoned so let's give women the right to kill it before it breathes air just adds to the impulsivity and irresponsibility that is already rampant.
    Souls of the animal kingdom: eagle, fox, bottle-nose dolphin, octopus, house cat. Okay, let's jump this jump. -- Rod Kimble

 

 
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