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  1. #41
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish View Post
    Do you have a problem with that particular study, Kev?
    Not really, it's talking about ice ages, which I've never denied. Now maybe you can explain how that's remotely related to the possibility of an eventual post-human evolution.

  2. #42
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    My point is, it's all done through inferential study. No one saw all that take place. Yet, and quite tellingly I might add, you have no problem with it.

    It makes your stance on evolution look a bit hypocritical to be honest.
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  3. #43
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish View Post
    My point is, it's all done through inferential study. No one saw all that take place. Yet, and quite tellingly I might add, you have no problem with it.

    It makes your stance on evolution look a bit hypocritical to be honest.
    Does it? We've observed that it's gotten really cold sometimes. Why couldn't it get a lot colder?

    Now, with evolution on the other hand, we've observed speciation, but we've never observed a genetic line produce a different kind of creature. Whereas temperature is simply a matter of degree, changes in life forms have been observed to be restricted rather than completely unlimited.

    We can create flames measuring hundreds of degrees, and observe ice formations hundreds of degrees below zero. But we've never observed humans give birth to anything other than another human, unless you want to claim a deformed human is a new species, which is just ridiculous.

  4. #44
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    But we've never observed humans give birth to anything other than another human, unless you want to claim a deformed human is a new species, which is just ridiculous.

    Are you actually pretending that this is some kind of proof that evolution is false? OBVIOUSLY if humans are going to evolve to the point where their offspring falls outside of what we consider human, this will take place far, far in the future. So of course you can't see it - you don't live in the future.

  5. #45
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by AliceLiddell
    By evolution, do you mean via means of gene propagation only? I think most of human evolution is happening via memes these days.
    All types and in all forms.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliceLiddell
    Also, do you mean evolving towards a different species or just evolving to adapt to our environment?
    I'd say both. In what ways is our entire population continuing to adapt?

    Quote Originally Posted by AliceLiddell
    If our population growth gets to the point where we don't have enough resources to go around, we'll need to start to compete with each other for survival and current moral standards will go out the door. We'll stop helping the sick and will eventually start killing each other off. At that point, evolution could kick into high gear, as the competitive pressure to survive and reproduce kicks into overdrive.
    In what ways would you see evolution kicking in?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333
    It depends what you mean by "noticeable". I mean I'm noticeably different than my parents.
    Are you referring to height? Do you think each generation will increase by 1-2 inches?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    At what point does something stop being a human?
    But then isn't that a question that evolution is compelled to answer? If evolution can recognize differentiation in species, then one would think it should have no problem with this. We could do the same exercise looking back. When did we become humans? If we came from another species, at what point is it said that we departed from it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    When does it stop? How many characteristics have to not match?
    Shouldn't evolution be defining that if it's dealing in the species business?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    Science is about testable observation, but sometimes the observations are about the impacts the object you're testing has on it's environs because there is no other way to test it.

    We call that inferential data...
    Why don't you ever cite this in the Intelligent Design debates? It would seem to be selective criteria mining. Do you see any inconsistency here, or not?
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  6. #46
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Are you actually pretending that this is some kind of proof that evolution is false? OBVIOUSLY if humans are going to evolve to the point where their offspring falls outside of what we consider human, this will take place far, far in the future. So of course you can't see it - you don't live in the future.
    Yes, and that's very convenient. Too bad it's just not scientific.

  7. #47
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    you referring to height? Do you think each generation will increase by 1-2 inches?
    Actually I'm referring to the term "noticeable" - which is very vague. As I said, I'm "noticeably" different than my parents. I mean you would not confuse me for either of them - even if we were the same age.



    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    But then isn't that a question that evolution is compelled to answer? If evolution can recognize differentiation in species, then one would think it should have no problem with this. We could do the same exercise looking back. When did we become humans? If we came from another species, at what point is it said that we departed from it?
    Evolution deals with gradual change over time. That means every generation is at least a little different than the on previous. And no, it's not up to the theory of evolution to catagorize the species and determine exactly when a species has changed enough to qualify as a different species.

    If we, as humans, never bothered to catagorize species or even think about when what we would consider pre-human became human or what the criteria is that makes a human a human, it would have no effect on the validity of the theory of evolution.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Yes, and that's very convenient. Too bad it's just not scientific.
    Well, I can't generate a scientific answer to an argument that has no scientific basis.

    If you have a science-based argument that attempts to disprove evolution, let me know.
    Last edited by mican333; June 12th, 2007 at 01:01 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  8. #48
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    If you have a science-based argument that attempts to disprove evolution, let me know.
    One can't disprove something which isn't and can't be proven.

  9. #49
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    The point is there is a logical answer to your question and I gave it. According to the theory of evolution, mankind can evolve to the point where they no longer fit today's criteria of what makes a human a human.

    Whether this WILL happen, I don't know. Perhaps mankind will be extinct within 100 years and we will never evolve much beyond where we are right now. But that's all besides the point.

    The point is the question you posed does not generate an effective argument against evolution. The question is answerable (and I gave an answer).

  10. #50
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Does it? We've observed that it's gotten really cold sometimes. Why couldn't it get a lot colder?
    We've seen that happen.

    1816, the year of no summer

    Check it out. The year of No Summer, it's called. It was colder, longer.

    Now, with evolution on the other hand, we've observed speciation, but we've never observed a genetic line produce a different kind of creature. Whereas temperature is simply a matter of degree, changes in life forms have been observed to be restricted rather than completely unlimited.
    Man, you get so close to the concept sometimes, Kev, I just boggle at how you seem to miss it.

    Evolution is a matter of degree...

    You have species type A. You change one thing, then another, and so on, and so on. Do it over a few thousand or million years. How can you even pretend that the subsequent many times removed ancestor will look like it's progenitor?

    The fossil record CLEARLY shows transitions in horse and whale species.

    IT also shows that few modern species have retained their shape over the various eras as well...

    We can create flames measuring hundreds of degrees, and observe ice formations hundreds of degrees below zero. But we've never observed humans give birth to anything other than another human, unless you want to claim a deformed human is a new species, which is just ridiculous.
    Nah. I'm not making that claim. I'm just saying you skirt around this issue so much, it's almost amusing.

    Can you at least tell me, from any perspective, why small changes can't accumulate over time and result in a species change? So that a lemur becomes a monkey for instance...


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    But then isn't that a question that evolution is compelled to answer? If evolution can recognize differentiation in species, then one would think it should have no problem with this. We could do the same exercise looking back. When did we become humans? If we came from another species, at what point is it said that we departed from it?
    Evolution, well specifically biology does this to some degree. The problem is, there is no hard and fast rule about it. Which is what I am trying to get from Kevin. How many changes would it take for a species to change? Traditionally, science will recognize a new species when it can no longer breed with the older, parent species. This doesn't always work as sometimes hybrids can result despite lots of differences in morphology or behavior.

    And it's one of the things that complicates the issue of human llineage. When DID we become human? I dunno. The date keeps gettiing pushed back as new discoveries are made. We've been around for several thousand years, though todays humans probably look little like our 100K ancestors...


    Shouldn't evolution be defining that if it's dealing in the species business?
    Evolution, and science, do. What I want to know is where is the line drawn for Kevin's argument. I don't think he has one, because he doesn't believe that one species can become something else.

    What he lacks is a reason WHY this event can't happen. At least, I don't think he has a scientific reason why...


    Why don't you ever cite this in the Intelligent Design debates? It would seem to be selective criteria mining. Do you see any inconsistency here, or not?
    I dunno, XM. I'd have a hard time telling you why I post one thing in one thread and another somewhere else. I guess it's about how my mind problem solves.

    I don't think I'm being selective in my choices of data. I just know that science is not always about SEEING the object you are studying. Sometimes it's about seeing the results, in a predictable way, that it has on it's environs.

    In the ID debates, there are too many suppositions. You have to START with the supposition of God, which I am not willing to concede as supported by logic. (I may believe it to be so, but I also know I can't construct an argument to prove it.)

    I can see what I BELIEVE God has wrought on this world in a sunset, the smile of my daughter, or the laugh of my son, but I have no way whatsoever to prove it. I believe. For me, it's enough. I don't expect others to do it, believe it, or even contemplate it. God believes in them, and that's enough as well...
    Last edited by Slipnish; June 12th, 2007 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  11. #51
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish View Post
    Can you at least tell me, from any perspective, why small changes can't accumulate over time and result in a species change? So that a lemur becomes a monkey for instance...
    Uh, well, a lemur has never produced a monkey, as far as I know. They're two different types of animals. Lemurs produce different species of lemurs, and monkeys different kinds of monkeys. Unless you have some sort of scientific basis to claim such a thing.

  12. #52
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333
    Actually I'm referring to the term "noticeable" - which is very vague. As I said, I'm "noticeably" different than my parents. I mean you would not confuse me for either of them - even if we were the same age.
    If the term "noticeable" is very vague, and evolution rests on being able to notice the differences, then that would in turn make evolution very vague.

    Anyway, I'm not seeing what you're getting at by claiming the differences between your parents and you are evolutionary in nature just because you look somewhat different. How does that demonstrate some evolutionary process? If I understand evolution properly, it's typically a progression, not merely a change. Do you think you have better looks than your parents?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333
    Evolution deals with gradual change over time. That means every generation is at least a little different than the on previous.
    How is that determined if it's not noticeable?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333
    And no, it's not up to the theory of evolution to catagorize the species and determine exactly when a species has changed enough to qualify as a different species.
    This is confusing to me, because I thought evolution particularly addressed how one species came from another. In other words, if evolution can't specify what differentiates one species from another, then how can it formulate the theory with comparisons?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    The problem is, there is no hard and fast rule about it. How many changes would it take for a species to change? Traditionally, science will recognize a new species when it can no longer breed with the older, parent species. This doesn't always work as sometimes hybrids can result despite lots of differences in morphology or behavior.
    OK, thanks. That does give me something to chew on. I think the undefined areas within evolution need to be acknowledged the gaps, if you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    And it's one of the things that complicates the issue of human llineage. When DID we become human? I dunno.
    If evolution were what it's often touted to be, I would expect it to be able to answer that question. I think this demonstrates some of its weaknesses and lack of precision.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    In the ID debates, there are too many suppositions. You have to START with the supposition of God, which I am not willing to concede as supported by logic. (I may believe it to be so, but I also know I can't construct an argument to prove it.)
    Your argument is practical in its construction, and I see what you're saying as you're contrasting the two scenarios. It still seems rather subjective. How many suppositions constitute too many, for example? Who decides that?

    Also, ID doesn't suppose God, but supposes some outside conscious entity. It does not require an omnipotent or omniscient being. It could be a highly advanced alien race, or many other things. It could be an "intelligent" universe. It could be animism. And so on...
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  13. #53
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    Re: Have humans stopped evolving?

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    If the term "noticeable" is very vague, and evolution rests on being able to notice the differences, then that would in turn make evolution very vague.
    My original response was to KB, not you. And what you are saying is exactly my point. Using the term "noticeable" is way too vague and therefore asking for a "noticeable" change before you can accept evolution is a false argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    This is confusing to me, because I thought evolution particularly addressed how one species came from another. In other words, if evolution can't specify what differentiates one species from another, then how can it formulate the theory with comparisons?
    Evolution is about a continuous gradual change that is always happening. When someone wants to say that such a change has occurred for one species to become another is completely subjective.

    Like you said (and I agree) "noticeable" is subjective. If one wants to say that each generation is a new species because they are all "noticeably different" from their parents, then it is (according to the person that uses that criteria). And if one wants to say as long as a species has the same number of fingers and toes (outside of the random mutations) it hasn't changed, then that's the definition (according to that person).

    I think I have an analogy for you. Lets say you have a machine that puts a small amount of salt into a soup over a period of time and no matter what you do, it's going to keep adding. Now it's up to you to decide whether your soup has enough salt. So it's not up to the machine to decide when enough salt has been added to qualify as "good soup", it's up to the person who is determining what makes a good soup.

    Just like it's not up to evolution to make the definitions of what makes a human a human. That's really up to the people who care to catagorize things as such. And we don't even have to do it. If no one ever bothered to ponder what makes a species a species, evolution would still keep happening.

 

 
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