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  1. #1
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    Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Often a person will present a personal problem they are aware of, and then ask for help. In this case, I'd like to leave it open-ended and say I can't identify my problem. What is it? And how can I make it all better. I figure, why wait until something gets so bad that it's even obvious to myself?
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  2. #2
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    I'll list the cure first, then the problem:

    Get a life - the problem is you don't have one.
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
    Disclaimer: This information is being provided for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only.

  3. #3
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop View Post
    I'll list the cure first, then the problem:

    Get a life - the problem is you don't have one.
    The problem here is that Snoop is having a tetchy sort of a day - the cure is to just agree with him.

    tetch·y also tech·y (tĕch'ē)
    adj., -i·er also -i·er, -i·est also -i·est.

    Peevish; testy: “As a critic gets older, he or she usually grows more tetchy and limited in responses” (James Wolcott).
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  4. #4
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have


  5. #5
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    How about Zhavric reading this scientific appraisal of 'his' 'God of Gaps' hypothesis: Perhaps it might cure his apparently 'blinkered' approach to Theists and Theism.

    'Let us consider a typical example from science.
    In my scientific research, I often have discussions in
    which I propose a model for some system, for example, that a spectral line can be under stood as arising
    from a certain type of electron motion. If another
    scientist calls my theory into question by pointing
    out a failure of explanation, I can imagine the following conversation:

    Me: I think the electrons move coherently.
    The wave length of this spectral line
    agrees with my calculation.

    Colleague: But if that is true, shouldn’t the energy
    of that second line also agree with your
    calculation?

    Me: You are pointing out a gap of explanation in my theory.
    That is a “gaps” argument; therefore, it is invalid.

    If I acted this way, I would not survive long in
    academia. Rather, I try to explain the data within
    my model and if I cannot, I feel I have lost a point in
    the argument. Yet, this is how AGOG (Anti-God-of-Gaps) proponents
    often argue:

    Scientist 1: I think that all of life can be explained
    by random variations of molecules
    without invoking God. The fact that
    urea can be created by random processes agrees with my view.

    Scientist 2: But if that is the case, shouldn’t there
    also be random generation of DNA?
    How do you explain the existence of
    DNA?

    Scientist 1: That is a God-of-the-gaps argument;
    therefore, it is invalid.'

    www.asa3.org/asa/PSCF/2001/PSCF9-01Snoke.pdf
    Last edited by FruitandNut; July 22nd, 2007 at 09:07 AM. Reason: spelling boo boo!
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  6. #6
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    Often a person will present a personal problem they are aware of, and then ask for help. In this case, I'd like to leave it open-ended and say I can't identify my problem. What is it? And how can I make it all better. I figure, why wait until something gets so bad that it's even obvious to myself?
    I'm uncertain as to why you would present this question to online people that have never met you before.

    Sure, we could base our opinion on what we see of you here on ODN....but your membership here doesn't depict all of your true inner values and characteristics.

    Therefore, the opinions you get here are only based on what we see here.

    I don't know you well enough to sit here and tell you what your problem is, and frankly, I'm in a quandary as to why you would even give a damn what our opinions would be on the matter, since most of us don't really know you.

    You seem to have quite a close relationship with HL....why would you not just private message her and ask her that question?

    Let me answer that for you...

    Because she would not see anything wrong with you. Why? Because you and her have a closer relationship and she knows more of your values and characteristics outside of ODN. Therefore, your personality that you share with her or anyone else that knows you more than we do, sees that whatever traits might be considered "wrong" are considerably less noticeable or important than all the other wonderful characteristics you have.

    Nobody can be all-around perfect.

    Ever since I"ve been here, I"ve noticed that you constantly seem to respond to me condenscendingly. You've made it very obvious that you have little to no respect for me. Over time, it's hardened me towards you and I find it difficult to have any compassion, respect, or likeness for anything you post.


    In fact, if you don't just 'skim' over this post, because of the fact that my opinion probably means nothing to you, wouldn't surprise me.

    In short, it wouldn't be fair of ME to sit here and dish out what I personally might think is "wrong" with you because I would be basing it only on what I've mentioned above.
    Hyde and Sylouette
    Married
    June 30, 2012

  7. #7
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    How about Zhavric reading this scientific appraisal of 'his' 'God of Gaps' hypothesis: Perhaps it might cure his apparently 'blinkered' approach to Theists and Theism.

    'Let us consider a typical example from science.
    In my scientific research, I often have discussions in
    which I propose a model for some system, for example, that a spectral line can be under stood as arising
    from a certain type of electron motion. If another
    scientist calls my theory into question by pointing
    out a failure of explanation, I can imagine the following conversation:

    Me: I think the electrons move coherently.
    The wave length of this spectral line
    agrees with my calculation.
    Your analogy fell apart in the bolded section when the scientist making the claim (who I took to be analogous to the theist) was able to point to evidence for his claim. There is no such evidence for theism.

    Furthermore, gap arguments are the hallmark of theism / Christianity, not atheism. "We don't know how it happened so goddidit" is not the rallying cry of atheists / scientists.

    As for Chad's "comment"...

    chadn737 disagrees: What the crap....do you think your funny...hahaha
    Bad form. In this thread the following theists and non-theists agreed Mormonism is an outright scam: amymariah, Apokalupsis, Bf55, CliveStaples, Dionysus, eliotitus, KevinBrowning, Nagasena, Trendem, Voice, and myself. While I don't see your name on the list, neither do I see it for the poll option of "a religion full of truth". Thus, posting a link to exmormon.org isn't me "just trying to be funny." It's me trying to help someone who's been the victim of a Christian-like scam.

  8. #8
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Zhav - A 'calculation', until proven, is a hypothesis, and speculations are often bourne of unproven 'calculations'. Often the difference between speculation and calculation, is bias.

    ps. I am not a Mormon myself, and yes, I do feel there are strong elements to question about its origin and the way in which it is conducted at various levels. I think you will find that is the case in an earlier thread about Mormonism.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  9. #9
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Thus, posting a link to exmormon.org isn't me "just trying to be funny." It's me trying to help someone who's been the victim of a Christian-like scam.
    Get out the record books, I agree. In my opinion, holding to a religion which has had several historical claims actually disproved is indeed a problem.

  10. #10
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Get out the record books, I agree. In my opinion, holding to a religion which has had several historical claims actually disproved is indeed a problem.
    I don't think it's a problem at all - let people believe what they want to believe. Isn't that what you do?
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
    Disclaimer: This information is being provided for informational, educational, and entertainment purposes only.

  11. #11
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by FruitandNut View Post
    If I acted this way, I would not survive long in
    academia. Rather, I try to explain the data within
    my model and if I cannot, I feel I have lost a point in
    the argument. Yet, this is how AGOG (Anti-God-of-Gaps) proponents
    often argue:

    Scientist 1: I think that all of life can be explained
    by random variations of molecules
    without invoking God. The fact that
    urea can be created by random processes agrees with my view.

    Scientist 2: But if that is the case, shouldn’t there
    also be random generation of DNA?
    How do you explain the existence of
    DNA?

    Scientist 1: That is a God-of-the-gaps argument;
    therefore, it is invalid.'
    This is not relevant for two main reasons
    1 The example is a bad one we have a pretty good idea how DNA came about. The early volcanic earth had the perfect conditions to develop RNA, as I'm sure you know DNA's building blocks. It would have quite literally been everywhere, it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination to say that it managed to form DNA
    and
    2 It is the fallacy of strawman, God of the Gaps says not to jump to the conclusion that God did it just because we don't know what did, things attributed to God have later been proved perfectly explainable in vastly more simple ways, the rising of the sun and lightning to name but two.
    -=]Eliotitus[=-
    "Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future"- Oscar Wilde

  12. #12
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    eliot - Life seems/appears to be a tad more than just a pile of complex molecules originally built from simple lifeless ones. I believe in evolution, but have problems dealing with a concept of life from unlife.

    CONFESSIONS FROM EVOLUTIONISTS

    Probabilistic calculations make it clear that complex molecules such as proteins and nucleic acids (RNA and DNA) could not ever have been formed by chance independently of each other. Yet evolutionists have to face the even greater problem that all these complex molecules have to coexist simultaneously in order for life to exist at all. Evolutionary theory is utterly confounded by this requirement. This is a point on which some leading evolutionists have been forced to confession. For instance, Stanley Miller's and Francis Crick's close associate from the University of San Diego California, reputable evolutionist Dr. Leslie Orgel says:

    It is extremely improbable that proteins and nucleic acids, both of which are structurally complex, arose spontaneously in the same place at the same time. Yet it also seems impossible to have one without the other. And so, at first glance, one might have to conclude that life could never, in fact, have originated by chemical means.1

    The same fact is also admitted by other scientists:

    DNA cannot do its work, including forming more DNA, without the help of catalytic proteins, or enzymes. In short, proteins cannot form without DNA, but neither can DNA form without proteins.2 (Fruity addendum - this smacks of 'Catch 22' - a closed 'circular' system.)

    How did the Genetic Code, along with the mechanisms for its translation (ribosomes and RNA molecules), originate? For the moment, we will have to content ourselves with a sense of wonder and awe, rather than with an answer.3

    The New York Times science correspondent, Nicholas Wade made this comment in an article dated 2000:

    Everything about the origin of life on Earth is a mystery, and it seems the more that is known, the more acute the puzzle gets.4


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1 Leslie E. Orgel, "The Origin of Life on Earth", Scientific American, vol. 271, October 1994, p. 78
    2 John Horgan, "In the Beginning", Scientific American, vol. 264, February 1991, p. 119
    3 Douglas R. Hofstadter, Gödel, Escher, Bach: An Eternal Golden Braid, New York, Vintage Books, 1980, p. 548
    4 Nicholas Wade, "Life's Origins Get Murkier and Messier", The New York Times, June 13, 2000, pp. D1-D2

    The genetic code is meaningless unless translated. The modern cell's translating machinery consists of at least 50 macromolecular components, which are themselves coded in DNA: the code cannot be translated otherwise than by products of translation themselves. It is the modern expression of omne vivum ex ovo. When and how did this circle become closed? It is exceedingly difficult to imagine.

    Evolution Deceit. com - This website is the interactive version of the book "Evolution Deceit" by HARUN YAHYA

    (Fruity addendum - Even simpler DNA chains still require a 'recognition system' - ribonucleic acid RNA cannot in itself provide that 'system', all it can do is 'feed' and 'support' it.)

    Getting life from unlife is a bit like plucking time from infinity. An amazing/'miraculous even' feat if you can pull it off.
    Last edited by FruitandNut; July 25th, 2007 at 11:09 AM. Reason: word omission
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  13. #13
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by syl
    You seem to have quite a close relationship with HL....why would you not just private message her and ask her that question?
    She has her "The Doctor is 'Out' Sign" posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by syl
    Ever since I"ve been here, I"ve noticed that you constantly seem to respond to me condenscendingly. You've made it very obvious that you have little to no respect for me.
    I can neither confirm nor deny this. However, I don't think I've been outright mean to you, correct? I'm quite curious why you would interpret my comments to be condescending. I'm nice to everybody at ODN. I don't get in shouting matches, I'm respectful of others, I give to ODN charities, I support its sponsors...

    Quote Originally Posted by syl
    Over time, it's hardened me towards you and I find it difficult to have any compassion, respect, or likeness for anything you post.
    It's sounding even worse now. I don't know how to approach this. Any ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by syl
    In fact, if you don't just 'skim' over this post, because of the fact that my opinion probably means nothing to you, wouldn't surprise me.
    syl, I read all your posts. Well... almost all of them. Well, OK, occasionally I read a few of them. You'll be relieved to know that I've never had you on ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by syl
    In short, it wouldn't be fair of ME to sit here and dish out what I personally might think is "wrong" with you because I would be basing it only on what I've mentioned above.
    You're nothing if not equitable.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Get out the record books, I agree [with Zhav]. In my opinion, holding to a religion which has had several historical claims actually disproved is indeed a problem.
    Sounds like a Kodak moment to me! I think my purpose in life was to bring you and Zhav to an understanding.

    Note that Mormonism has the gumption to make bold statements, which naturally become doctrinally and historically controversial. In contrast, many other Christian churches have the gumption to do what? .... to play critic against the Mormons. Now that takes a lot of effort. We have enough Roger Eberts. We need more Laurence Oliviers.
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  14. #14
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    Note that Mormonism has the gumption to make bold statements, which naturally become doctrinally and historically controversial.
    Saying that the Indians were Jews isn't just controversial. It's incorrect.

  15. #15
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    Cool Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo View Post
    She has her "The Doctor is 'Out' Sign" posted.


    I can neither confirm nor deny this. However, I don't think I've been outright mean to you, correct? I'm quite curious why you would interpret my comments to be condescending. I'm nice to everybody at ODN. I don't get in shouting matches, I'm respectful of others, I give to ODN charities, I support its sponsors...


    It's sounding even worse now. I don't know how to approach this. Any ideas?


    syl, I read all your posts. Well... almost all of them. Well, OK, occasionally I read a few of them. You'll be relieved to know that I've never had you on ignore.


    You're nothing if not equitable.


    Sounds like a Kodak moment to me! I think my purpose in life was to bring you and Zhav to an understanding.

    Note that Mormonism has the gumption to make bold statements, which naturally become doctrinally and historically controversial. In contrast, many other Christian churches have the gumption to do what? .... to play critic against the Mormons. Now that takes a lot of effort. We have enough Roger Eberts. We need more Laurence Oliviers.
    you are a stand up member, and because of that fact i havent bashed on your religion when debating you xm
    Nothing will stand against the returning of He who hath died for us and His Father who breathed the breath of life into the dust that created man.
    Humbleness, Love, and loyalty to the word and his message.

    BF55.....

  16. #16
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    Re: Help me with a problem I don't know I have

    Quote Originally Posted by Bf55 View Post
    you are a stand up member, and because of that fact i havent bashed on your religion when debating you xm
    Thanks for your support, Bf55. I appreciate your integrity and the respect you show. See, syl? Bf55 thinks I'm not all that bad...
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

 

 

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