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  1. #81
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    Bashing? I thought I was stating the obvious.

  2. #82
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    kwinters, had you read the post...you'd know that I'm waiting for YOU. You have failed to supply the specific verses and contradiction. What you have submitted thus far is too vague (saying they are just different).

    The purpose of this thread is to allow others to see what is being accused of being contradictory, as well as an explanation. This is a two-part process here. I'm still waiting for your first step to be completed properly. Please read the first post in this thread for instructions.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  3. #83
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    OK, Apok. Let's play by your rules.

    Where did Jesus tell his disciples to go After his resurrection?

    Was it Galilee?

    Mt.28:10
    "Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me."

    Mk.16:7
    "But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you."

    Or did he tell them to hang out in Jerusalem?

    Lk.24:49
    "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."

    Acts 1:4
    "And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me."

    I mean, my goodness, what would YOU have done with these instructions?
    To begin to think is to begin to be undermined.
    Albert Camus, An Absurd Reasoning

    Who knows most, doubts most.
    Robert Browning

  4. #84
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    I'm not as well versed, but Jesus meets with the disciples several times over the 40 days between the Resurrection and the Ascension.

    I think these are different events you are referring to.

    In the first event, the Angel tells Mary et al to inform the Apostles they are to go to Galilee to see Jesus. This event clearly takes place on Easter morning and is instructing the Apostles where to go to see Jesus for the first time since His death and Ressurrection.

    In Luke and Acts, it is clear, if you read more than just the verses quoted, that Jesus is telling the Apostles directly, after He has initially appeared to them, that they are to wait in Jerusalem. This second event is clearly not the same as the first event - the time, location and persons are all different.

    I fail to see a contradiction. The Angel gives Mary a message to deliver to the Apostles about going to Galilee. Sometime later, Jesus and the Apostles are reunitred and He then tells them to wait in Jerusalem after His Ascension.
    Eternal Father, we offer you the body and blood, soul and divinity of Your dearly Beloved Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and the sins of the whole world.
    For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apok
    The purpose of this thread is to allow others to see what is being accused of being contradictory, as well as an explanation.
    It seems to me that "accusation" is a bit biased towards an assumption what is obviously contradictory texts is a matter of misreadings. Many biblical contradictions are clearly in the details. I'm willing to give the Bible the benefit of the doubt. But if contrary texts are shown to contradict other comparative texts of the same events and people, then no amount of justification and explaining away is going to make me "not" see how the texts contradict.

    I have a serious problem with the methods employed to justify natural contradictions. I mean natural to mean how they appear for anyone to read and no other explanation is given to explain away the problem. If Joe picks up the Bible and begins to read it, and notices the resurrection differences and the Judas contradiction, as he is reading it in the form it is printed and presented to the world, and has a negative impression, who can blame him? There is no apologist that comes free with each Bible purchase to explain away all the problems he's seeing.

    As I said before, if god couldn't inspire the writers to the degree where they couldn't be more clear, then why be impressed with the lack of clarity? I'm not. And the more believers claim this is inspired by god, the more I conclude that it is an incompetent god. I'm not impressed. I'm more impressed with the Declaration of Independence, and those were admittedly mortals doing all the work.

    As literature and a glimpse into the past, I am impressed.

  6. #86
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    I'm currently in the process of re-organizing the manner in which we discuss contradictions. I do not believe that a simple thread in a religion forum is adequate.

    I'm going to create a sub-forum, guidelines and rules, discussion about the FAIRNESS of the guidelines and rules, 1 thread to hold submissions and responses, with links going to external threads for the contesting explanations given. I MAY just allow a different thread for each contradiction submission. We'll see.

    I'm also going to keep a talley for # of contradictions resolved vs # of contradictions unresolved. As I stated in the opening post...I do NOT claim that I can answer ALL alleged contradictions.

    I enjoy this topic for a few reasons. 1) It helps the critic understand properly methodology of hermenuetics, 2) it answers their objections, 3) it answers "bystanders'" curiosities, 4) it challenges me (or the apologist)...and as a student of theology, I'm always seeking to further my understanding.

    This thread is NOT about the inspiration, the concept of infallibility, existence of God, why Christianity is the "one true religion", etc...

    It is about 1 thing and ONLY 1 thing...specific contradictions found in the Bible. NOTHING more. For attacks against the Bible on other grounds, please start another thread.

    This thread has been copied and moved into a hidden forum to be cleaned up for the new format. You may continue to post here of course, and I'll move the posts accordingly.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  7. #87
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    I would just hope that "fairness" means that the Bible texts are not assumed automatically correct or contradictory. Let's look at how the texts read in their natural form, without extraordinary and extrenal justifications, and then set out to examine them as they are to see if they contradict or simply do not share details of the same event/person.

  8. #88
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    Apok,

    I've been waiting for you to respond to my responses which refuted the authors of the Gospels were eye-witnesses to the events.

    Or did you want to start a seperate thread about that?

  9. #89
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    Who AUTHORED the Bible is off-topic. It is not within the scope of Biblical Contradiction, to discuss the authenticity of the Bible. I'd be more than happy to discuss that topic...but I insist that it is in the proper place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apok
    This thread is NOT about the inspiration, the concept of infallibility, existence of God, why Christianity is the "one true religion", etc...
    Add: authorship to that list.

    This is about contraditions found in the Bible, nothing else.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  10. #90
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    KayDub, put the damn bone down and exhibit some patience. Apok is overworked.

    Apok, The forum idea sounds splendid, but I would add to your fairness doctrine defenses based on the "God just burped up a miracle' defense and the 'even Rube Goldberg would be impressed with the tortuous path to cohesion' route.
    To begin to think is to begin to be undermined.
    Albert Camus, An Absurd Reasoning

    Who knows most, doubts most.
    Robert Browning

  11. #91
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    Why not just save everyone some trouble and systematically go through the "contradictions" (I agree that some are not technically contradictions) listed here - http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html?

  12. #92
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    Post Scriptum: I know that is the easy way out, but I can think of at least two benefits:

    1) I'm lazy and someone else has already done the work.
    2) A third person's presentation of a "contradiction" removes some of the
    personal investment that might naturally come about from formulating one's own presentation of the issue; both "sides" might even agree that the particular issue is problematic as presented by that third person.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by NC
    Why not just save everyone some trouble and systematically go through the "contradictions" (I agree that some are not technically contradictions) listed here - http://www.infidels.org/library/mod...radictions.html?
    Because I don't have the time to refute an entire site. Also, since this is a community comprised of members, there is interaction between members, which included discussion. ODN is not a pro-Bible site...it is a debate community. I will not post apologetics, nor any belief system as part of the site content. Nor will I refute an entire site in the forum.

    1) I'm lazy and someone else has already done the work.
    2) A third person's presentation of a "contradiction" removes some of the
    personal investment that might naturally come about from formulating one's own presentation of the issue; both "sides" might even agree that the particular issue is problematic as presented by that third person.
    Feel free to use their examples.

    And if there are contradictions there that you disagree with, then there is no need to waste everyone's time by posting them here (another reason that makes it unnecessary to refute a 3rd party site).

    However, if you do post them, please post them in adherence to the rules set forth in the Biblical Contradiction forum (as well as the community rules here at ODN). That BC forum will be opened soon for submissions.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  14. #94
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    ...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rules
    The debate discussions in these forums focus more on the art of debating rather than proving someone else wrong. Using sources is often necessary, and is in fact, encouraged. However, to give many links or sources and proclaim that all one needs to do is read or review them, would be innapropriate. Use the sources and links as support for your argument, not as your argument. Linkwars, this is not.
    Do or do not, there is no try. - Master Jedi Yoda
    He's Kermit on acid who happens to carry a big stick when pissed off. Big deal. - Apokalupsis
    Actually, didn't Frank Oz do Bert as well? We're cousins! - Withnail in reference to Bert and Yoda

  15. #95
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    Which is of course, why a defense of the claim should be ready by those who submit the contradiction (as opposed to copy/past & copy/paste & copy/paste).

    If it DOES turn out to be nothing more than a cut/paste job, we'll re-evaluate the policy for submission.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  16. #96
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    There has been an awful lot of mudslinging on this poor thread! But once you see past all of that the fact is this: No one has brought forth one contradiction that they can defend.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

  17. #97
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    James, I have yet to see anything but improbable answers being defended as 'possible' with enough squinting and contortions.

    God is clarity. Not obfuscation.
    To begin to think is to begin to be undermined.
    Albert Camus, An Absurd Reasoning

    Who knows most, doubts most.
    Robert Browning

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by James
    There has been an awful lot of mudslinging on this poor thread! But once you see past all of that the fact is this: No one has brought forth one contradiction that they can defend.
    You have obviously missed my contradiction, its on page 3 I think...before this discusion went way off topic.

    Edit, I stand corrected, its on page 2.
    Do or do not, there is no try. - Master Jedi Yoda
    He's Kermit on acid who happens to carry a big stick when pissed off. Big deal. - Apokalupsis
    Actually, didn't Frank Oz do Bert as well? We're cousins! - Withnail in reference to Bert and Yoda

  19. #99
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    I just found it. Sorry, this is the first time looking at this thread and it gets kinda hard to trudge through all of the posts.
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3rdPersonPlural
    James, I have yet to see anything but improbable answers being defended as 'possible' with enough squinting and contortions.

    God is clarity. Not obfuscation.
    Concerning jerusalem vs Galilee post Resurrection. As I said, you have to read more than individual verses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt 28
    5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you.8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."
    So we see this event occurs first thing Easter morning.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark 16
    1When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body. 2Very early on the first day of the week, just after sunrise, they were on their way to the tomb 3and they asked each other, "Who will roll the stone away from the entrance of the tomb?"4But when they looked up, they saw that the stone, which was very large, had been rolled away. 5As they entered the tomb, they saw a young man dressed in a white robe sitting on the right side, and they were alarmed.
    6"Don't be alarmed," he said. "You are looking for Jesus the Nazarene, who was crucified. He has risen! He is not here. See the place where they laid him. 7But go, tell his disciples and Peter, 'He is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you.' "
    8Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.
    Again we see that this occurs on Easter morning.

    [QUOTE = Luke 28]1On the first day of the week, very early in the morning, the women took the spices they had prepared and went to the tomb. 2They found the stone rolled away from the tomb, 3but when they entered, they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus. 4While they were wondering about this, suddenly two men in clothes that gleamed like lightning stood beside them. 5In their fright the women bowed down with their faces to the ground, but the men said to them, "Why do you look for the living among the dead? 6He is not here; he has risen! Remember how he told you, while he was still with you in Galilee: 7'The Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, be crucified and on the third day be raised again.' " 8Then they remembered his words.
    9When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles. 11But they did not believe the women, because their words seemed to them like nonsense. 12Peter, however, got up and ran to the tomb. Bending over, he saw the strips of linen lying by themselves, and he went away, wondering to himself what had happened.

    On the Road to Emmaus

    13Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[1] from Jerusalem. 14They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16but they were kept from recognizing him.
    17He asked them, "What are you discussing together as you walk along?"
    18They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?"
    19"What things?" he asked.
    20"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death, and they crucified him; 21but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel. And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place. 22In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning 23but didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said he was alive. 24Then some of our companions went to the tomb and found it just as the women had said, but him they did not see."
    25He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! 26Did not the Christ[2] have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" 27And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
    28As they approached the village to which they were going, Jesus acted as if he were going farther. 29But they urged him strongly, "Stay with us, for it is nearly evening; the day is almost over." So he went in to stay with them.
    30When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. 31Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight. 32They asked each other, "Were not our hearts burning within us while he talked with us on the road and opened the Scriptures to us?"
    33They got up and returned at once to Jerusalem. There they found the Eleven and those with them, assembled together 34and saying, "It is true! The Lord has risen and has appeared to Simon." 35Then the two told what had happened on the way, and how Jesus was recognized by them when he broke the bread.

    Jesus Appears to the Disciples

    36While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, "Peace be with you."
    37They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. 38He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? 39Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have."
    40When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. 41And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, "Do you have anything here to eat?" 42They gave him a piece of broiled fish, 43and he took it and ate it in their presence.
    44He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
    45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."[/QUOTE]
    We see that at the earliest this occurs on the evening of Easter.

    [QUOTE = Acts 1]In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach 2until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. 3After his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: "Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5For John baptized with[1] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit." [/QUOTE]
    Here the event simply states "on one occasion".

    So there is no confusion. Mary Magdalene is told to tell the Apostles to go to Galilee to see Jesus. They don't show up, so He comes to Jerusalem and tells them to stay there. Seems pretty clear.
    Eternal Father, we offer you the body and blood, soul and divinity of Your dearly Beloved Son, our Lord, Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and the sins of the whole world.
    For the sake of His sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world.

 

 
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