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  1. #1
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    The War on Terror: Who's winning?

    Everyday there are more and more news stories about the War in Iraq. More and more lives are being lost, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. We've planned to hand over power of Iraq on June 30th. This is Iraq we're talking about, a country that hasn't had control of itself for nearly 3 decades! Lord knows what we're actually planning to do with Saddam, the root of the Iraq debacle himself. Oh, and what ever happened to that bin Laden guy anyway?

    The longer this War on Terror continues, the more apparent it becomes that it probably isn't the 'good guys' that are really winning. Whether you're against this war or for it, you've got to wonder when we'll see the last innocent man tortured and beheaded for all the world to see or how long it will be before our news is no longer cluttered with the now all too familiar images of war and names we can barely pronounce. You've got to stop and wonder if we're really winning this one.
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

  2. #2
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    Terrorists further their agenda with shock. They are reduced to publicized beheadings. It could be seen by some as a form of their weakening capabilities.

    To date, there has not been a single death in Israel from terrorist activity, in over 101 days. The reason for it is not negotiation, not appeasement, not in a desire to "understand" the poor, misunderstood "freedom fighters"...it is because terrorist LEADERS are being wiped out. When a new one emerges, he is El Numero Uno Objectivo.

    FORCE is what will eventually bring peace. Caving in now a la Madrid Model, would be the worst possible thing to do. We were not at war with terrorists when we were attacked during the 8 years of the Clinton administration, nor were we at war when we were attacked on 911. Backing off now, saying we no longer will be "at war" and will appease terrorists, will NOT bring peace. Only their complete annihilation will do so.

    A line from Starship Troopers comes to mind..."Kill 'em! Kill 'em all!"

    These are not soldiers of a nation we are fighting. They are not "freedom fighters" (despite the belief of a naive few). They are evil men bent on doing evil to innocent women, children, civilians, in order to bring nations to their knees to meet the demands of evil.

    Who is winning? Tough question, but I'd say in the scheme of things, we are. Oh, we could be doing MUCH better, and have made too many mistakes along the way, but we have prevented further attacks thus far, disrupted their organization, disrupted their communications, disrupted their financial support, etc... We cannot stop now...we are winning...but that doesn't mean that it will be over any time soon.

    And if we caved in, ceased our "war", what then? Would the Terrorists then drop their weapons and become responsible citizens of the world? Not bloody likely.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  3. #3
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    Al Qaeda is stonger than ever, and now has almost unlimited support. The terrorists and insurgents are clearly 'winning' in Iraq, while some unsavoury characters control much of Afghanistan. If anyone is winning, its 'them'.

  4. #4
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    Is there any support whatsover for this claim?

    Also, in that conflict, some some 500 (or was it 300?? I can't recall) Iraqi's have fought against and been killed by the insurgents. These are Iraqi's who are fighting alongside the US led coalition.

    Don't confuse challenge with loss.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    Is there any
    Also, in that conflict, some some 500 (or was it 300?? I can't recall) Iraqi's have fought against and been killed by the insurgents. These are Iraqi's who are fighting alongside the US led coalition.
    There are also countless Iraqis who risk their lives every today to support the U.S. Effort.

    Five days ago a good friend of mine was in a tiny 3-vehicle convoy going from Baghdad to the Iraqi/Iranian Border. A boy of about 12 years old flagged them down to warn them of a roadside bomb planted in the road ahead and of Insurgents waiting to detonate it on them.

    Two more insurgents joined Allah in "paradise" that day.

    How many will die until our help is no longer required? I do not know. However, I do know that price in blood will be samller than if we had done nothing -- and so do the average Iraqis.

    The only way godd will triumph over evil is if we are persistant. War is too important to be left to the generals -- it is also too important to be left to the general citizenry whose source of information is a national media which is mostly biased against our efforts.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrs_innocent
    Everyday there are more and more news stories about the War in Iraq. More and more lives are being lost, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight. We've planned to hand over power of Iraq on June 30th. This is Iraq we're talking about, a country that hasn't had control of itself for nearly 3 decades!
    What's your point? The American colonies were oppressed for over a century, and look at us today. You give the Iraqi people too little credit. Just because we only hear about the crazy killers, doesn't mean they all are.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrs_innocent
    Lord knows what we're actually planning to do with Saddam, the root of the Iraq debacle himself. Oh, and what ever happened to that bin Laden guy anyway?
    We'll probably turn him over to the new government, and they'll probably execute him. If they don't, they've made an asanine move, and if he's rescued and regains power, it's not our fault. I say we skip that whole nonsensical step and put a bullet in his brain ourselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by mrs_innocent
    The longer this War on Terror continues, the more apparent it becomes that it probably isn't the 'good guys' that are really winning. Whether you're against this war or for it, you've got to wonder when we'll see the last innocent man tortured and beheaded for all the world to see or how long it will be before our news is no longer cluttered with the now all too familiar images of war and names we can barely pronounce. You've got to stop and wonder if we're really winning this one.
    I'm not sure what your reference about hard-to-pronounce names is implying. Because they're foreign, they're not worth as much? Do you think there weren't any beheadings under Saddam's rule? It never ceases to amaze me how ingrateful and cynical people are when the U.S. steps in, removes dictators, liberates people, stays to rebuild, and then turns over their new democracy to them. I'm tired as hell of this "It's hopeless" attitude. We can accomplish what we think we can, no more no less.

  7. #7
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    Ouch! Goodness, someone's feeling a bit hostile, huh Kev? This wasn't the inteded purpose of the thread, but I suppose I'll go with it anyhow.

    What's your point? The American colonies were oppressed for over a century, and look at us today. You give the Iraqi people too little credit. Just because we only hear about the crazy killers, doesn't mean they all are.
    I never claimed they were all 'crazy killers'; I've also never devoted entire threads denouncing another religion as nothing more than violent. Why should I (or anyone else for that matter) give the Iraqi people any more credit? They've only *helped* with the work that's been done in their country; they needed the other countries to go and do it for them, though. I hope that will change as they continue to grow, but I certainly won't be holding my breath. That's probably what pisses me off the most about it: I'm usually a very caring person, always willing to lend a hand to someone in need, always mindful of others' feelings. Well, it's pretty tough to remain in such a state when you see what's been going on. And, as an American, I have the right to voice that opinion, to feel that it's all wrong. That's a right that was earned by the blood, sweat and tears of fellow Americans--the same fellow Americans who are willingly giving their lives to help out a place like Iraq. If one were to actually sit and think about it for a moment, it's rather disgusting.

    We'll probably turn him over to the new government, and they'll probably execute him. If they don't, they've made an asanine move, and if he's rescued and regains power, it's not our fault.
    An assanine move? That's the best label you can give it?

    Living where I do, there are an obscenely large amount of military here, from the Air Force Base across the street, the Naval Weapons Station about 10 minutes away, and the Army Logistics Base right next to that, Parris Island, et al. Several of my neighbors are in the Air Force, a few of my friends. These people and countless others have been willing to give the ultimate sacrifice for their country, and most recently for Iraq. To 'save the world' from figures like Saddam Hussein, doing their part to ensure the people of the United States of America freedom and the luxury of enjoying said freedom safely. If we're planning to just hand Saddam Hussein directly back to Iraq, those people have made those sacrifices in vain...and let's not forget the ones who have already paid that ultimate price.

    I say we skip that whole nonsensical step and put a bullet in his brain ourselves.
    I can't say I disagree with you on this one.

    I'm not sure what your reference about hard-to-pronounce names is implying. Because they're foreign, they're not worth as much?
    No, not when it's costing this country (and many others) what it already has and will continue to.

    Do you think there weren't any beheadings under Saddam's rule?
    I'm quite sure there were, along with many other horrible torturous acts. But those weren't spread all over the front pages of our newspapers and all over our television screens, were they?

    It never ceases to amaze me how ingrateful and cynical people are when the U.S. steps in, removes dictators, liberates people, stays to rebuild, and then turns over their new democracy to them.
    Why should I be grateful? As I previously mentioned, it's my right as an American to be cynical, critical, skeptical, and whatever other -al I want to be. It might be a good thing for Iraq to have a functional democracy, and I see you obviously do believe it will really happen.


    I'm tired as hell of this "It's hopeless" attitude. We can accomplish what we think we can, no more no less.
    Good thing I chose to remain with my family rather than join the military, huh? It's not a question of what we can accomplish, but a question of what we have already accomplished, and what we will have accomplished when it's all said and done.
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

  8. #8
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    I'm sorry that came across so harshly. The only comment I'm going to respond to is your comment condemning my threads pointing out the evil of Islam. This is a deeply held belief of mine, after reading much of the Qur'an, reading what experts have to say, and simply observing the cesspool that is the Middle East. The sole cause of the sad state of the Arab world today is the Satanic influence of Islam. I don't base this on ignorance, but simple observation. Islam is a disease that must be cured, and democracy is the medicine.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrs. innocent
    Why should I (or anyone else for that matter) give the Iraqi people any more credit? They've only *helped* with the work that's been done in their country; they needed the other countries to go and do it for them, though.
    Yeah, those stupid Arabs. Why can't they be like the USA, who got their independance without any outside help what-so-ever! Wait a minute...

    I'm usually a very caring person, always willing to lend a hand to someone in need, always mindful of others' feelings. Well, it's pretty tough to remain in such a state when you see what's been going on.
    I suppose I can understand that. Although you do know you're playing right into the terrorist minority's hands, right?

    And, as an American, I have the right to voice that opinion, to feel that it's all wrong.
    This statement has nothing to do with your argument or the topic. I can only assume that it was intended to stir up some kind of sypathetic patriotic fervor.

    That's a right that was earned by the blood, sweat and tears of fellow Americans--the same fellow Americans who are willingly giving their lives to help out a place like Iraq.


    If one were to actually sit and think about it for a moment, it's rather disgusting.
    The idea of self-sacrifice to help another human is disgusting to you?

    Living where I do, there are an obscenely large amount of military here, from the Air Force Base across the street, the Naval Weapons Station about 10 minutes away, and the Army Logistics Base right next to that, Parris Island, et al. Several of my neighbors are in the Air Force, a few of my friends. These people and countless others have been willing to give the ultimate sacrifice for their country, and most recently for Iraq. To 'save the world' from figures like Saddam Hussein, doing their part to ensure the people of the United States of America freedom and the luxury of enjoying said freedom safely. If we're planning to just hand Saddam Hussein directly back to Iraq, those people have made those sacrifices in vain...and let's not forget the ones who have already paid that ultimate price.
    I put the important part in bold.

    We overthrew Saddam. How exactly would letting his fate be decided by the country that he wronged be betraying our military dead? Doesn't letting his victims, the country that was directly affected by his evil actions, decide his fate seem, oh, I don't know...fair and just? What do you think the Iraqi government will do, slap him on the wrist and then let him rule again?

    I'm quite sure there were, along with many other horrible torturous acts. But those weren't spread all over the front pages of our newspapers and all over our television screens, were they?
    So murder is OK, as long as you don't know about it?

  10. #10
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    Yeah, those stupid Arabs. Why can't they be like the USA, who got their independance without any outside help what-so-ever! Wait a minute...
    Yeah, that's exactly was I was implying... :rolleyes:

    I actually wasn't making a reference to any other country in particular, but now that you mention it... Perhaps we should take a small trip down American History Lane while we're at it. There's a big difference that you're failing recognize: America received aid from allies, yes, this is true. But the work was primarily the responbility of those freedom seekers. Thus far, this has not been the case in Iraq.

    I suppose I can understand that. Although you do know you're playing right into the terrorist minority's hands, right?
    So, because the terrorist minority doesn't care, and they don't want anyone else to, and I've chosen to be more concerned with what's at home, you're asserting that I am indeed assisting the enemy's cause? Maybe I'm the one twisting this around now, so I'm hoping you'll elaborate in an effort to prove some sort of relevance to your comment.

    This statement has nothing to do with your argument or the topic. I can only assume that it was intended to stir up some kind of sypathetic patriotic fervor.
    Did you read the posts, Telex? No attempt to stir up any kind of syMpathetic fervor present in my argument. Were my comments untruthful? No. This is America. We do have the right to disagree with how our country is being run. We do have the right to be angry. And those rights were won by way of men and women giving their lives to make it happen. The goings-on in Iraq had nothing to do with the US. And now Americans (and, again, just for the sake of fairness, citizens of several other countries as well) are losing their lives for it. Yep, you're right, no connection whatsoever.

    The idea of self-sacrifice to help another human is disgusting to you?
    Again, I have to wonder if you've read anything else in this thread.

    No, self-sacrifice is most certainly not disgusting. It's quite an admirable trait when applied properly. This was not one of those times, IMO.

    We overthrew Saddam. How exactly would letting his fate be decided by the country that he wronged be betraying our military dead? Doesn't letting his victims, the country that was directly affected by his evil actions, decide his fate seem, oh, I don't know...fair and just? What do you think the Iraqi government will do, slap him on the wrist and then let him rule again?
    I suppose it relies largely on one's faith in Iraq's new "leaders" to run a country properly. A western-style democracy seems highly unlikely in a region ruled by religion. So, no, it doesn't make sense to hand the man back to the people we've taken him from. We did the work to rid the people of him, we're still doing the work. Yes, it would seem 'fair and just' to give him back, but it seems rational to allow a higher authority to deal with it. Especially if he was a 'threat to international safety'.
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

  11. #11
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    Well said, mrs_innocent, well said.

    Equating the "liberation" of Iraq to the Revolution is ridiculous. There's no comparision, Telex. For one, patriots initiated the war again England, not some outside presence. Sure, the assistance of the French, Spanish and Indians were important, but the war was won on the blood, sweat and tears of the patriots. That is clearly not the case here, where the coalition is doing the majority of the work, dirty or clean.

    Secondly, said allies in the Revolution had their own reasons for backing the patriots in their war against tyranny, many of which did not include "liberating" anyone. I thought that was our "reason" for being in Iraq, just to liberate the Iraqis from Saddam Hussein. Though I don't believe the official line for a second, it still is the official line on paper. How liberating people in a country of sand half a world away is supposed to make me feel any safer for my fellow countrymen is beyond me, but we are supposed to blindly trust our great leader, George W. Bush, so I will. :rolleyes: But that's another thread.

    This "war on terror" will never be completely won, because in reality a war against an ideal can never be over. Ideas are never destroyed, even the wrong ones.

    As far as Saddam is concerned, I find it funny that the Bush administration justifies this war on Iraq by saying that he violated UN protocol, yet we are turning him over to Iraq cause of crimes he committed against them. Whatever.
    Cranky old guy.

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    Terror is winning. You can't destroy a feeling/emotion/ideal.
    But, in all seriousness, the terrorists are winning, because they are underhanded and they play dirty. They don't have people protesting for human rights in their country. We do, and that's the only reason why they're winning: Because we aren't allowed to nuke them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Anywien
    Terror is winning. You can't destroy a feeling/emotion/ideal.
    But, in all seriousness, the terrorists are winning, because they are underhanded and they play dirty. They don't have people protesting for human rights in their country. We do, and that's the only reason why they're winning: Because we aren't allowed to nuke them.
    You can't nuke them though, because the grass roots support for terrorism is everywhere. In fact, the terrorists that will plan and carry out the big 9/11 type attacks are probably in the West already, doing degrees at universities and taking flying lessons etc. Its a mildly scary thought, but a look at the backgrounds of the big name terrorists of recent decades suggests it is almost certainly true.

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    True, but maybe if you destroy the source, it might deter them. Who knows with those nutcases?

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    Destroying the source is the only way, however I don't think the sources are the Arab states which terrorists hail from, the real sources are Israel and various grievances against Western foreign policy, which can be traced to control of oil. The oil problem will be gone soon enough, and if a solution to the Israel/Palestine problem is found, then the two major sources of terrorism are gone.

  16. #16
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    rofl Israel is the source of terrorism? Yeah...them pesky Jeewwwboys! Let's go whoop 'em Billy Bob! Now...whar's my sheet? I had it around here somewhar's...
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrs innocent
    There's a big difference that you're failing recognize: America received aid from allies, yes, this is true. But the work was primarily the responbility of those freedom seekers. Thus far, this has not been the case in Iraq.
    Okay, that was a bad example.

    So, because the terrorist minority doesn't care, and they don't want anyone else to, and I've chosen to be more concerned with what's at home, you're asserting that I am indeed assisting the enemy's cause? Maybe I'm the one twisting this around now, so I'm hoping you'll elaborate in an effort to prove some sort of relevance to your comment.
    You stated that you are starting to not care what happens in Iraq anymore because of how you percieve the Iraqis are reacting to US intervention. This is exactly what the terroritst minority wants, and has achieved, with the media-emphasized beheadings and other acts.

    Were my comments untruthful? No. This is America. We do have the right to disagree with how our country is being run. We do have the right to be angry. And those rights were won by way of men and women giving their lives to make it happen. The goings-on in Iraq had nothing to do with the US. And now Americans (and, again, just for the sake of fairness, citizens of several other countries as well) are losing their lives for it. Yep, you're right, no connection whatsoever.
    We have the right to free speech. But free speech has no relevance to the topic, as it is not being discussed. So I don't know why you wasted the time typing those sentences.

    Again, I have to wonder if you've read anything else in this thread.

    No, self-sacrifice is most certainly not disgusting. It's quite an admirable trait when applied properly. This was not one of those times, IMO.
    You went on a little tirade about free speech, then said something about Americans willingly giving their lives to help Iraq, then said it was disgusting. So American soldiers willingly (your word) sacrificing themselves in Iraq disgusts you.

    I suppose it relies largely on one's faith in Iraq's new "leaders" to run a country properly. A western-style democracy seems highly unlikely in a region ruled by religion. So, no, it doesn't make sense to hand the man back to the people we've taken him from. We did the work to rid the people of him, we're still doing the work. Yes, it would seem 'fair and just' to give him back, but it seems rational to allow a higher authority to deal with it. Especially if he was a 'threat to international safety'.
    The idea is that we are giving Iraq its soveriegnty back, thus making them the "higher authority." I don't see how Saddam is a threat to international safety anymore.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis
    rofl Israel is the source of terrorism? Yeah...them pesky Jeewwwboys! Let's go whoop 'em Billy Bob! Now...whar's my sheet? I had it around here somewhar's...
    Sounds like a Bush cabinet meeting, just replace Jews with A-raabs where Arab is defined (in the words of a typical republican congressman) as someone "with a diaper on their head and a fan belt around that diaper on their head".

    Israel will be the source of terrorism as long as they continue the occupation.

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    How can Israel be the source of terrorism? Israelites don't suicide bomb Christians, their hatred is directed towards Palestinians.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anywien
    How can Israel be the source of terrorism? Israelites don't suicide bomb Christians, their hatred is directed towards Palestinians.
    I don't mean that Israelis themselves currently use terrorist tactics (not by the popular definition of terrorism at least), but rather it is the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza that gives root to Palestinian terrorism, and also groups like Al Qaeda who seek to punish the US for its unconditional support for Israel.

 

 
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