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  1. #41
    Will ADMIN 4 Gas Money

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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Not that this entirely discounts your evidence, Booger, but it should be noted that you don't provide anything outside a poll (hardly scientific research) that is more recent than 1980. If you have such an affinity for modern science and all its trappings I'd imagine you could come up with more recent studies that correlate with your assertion. You know, maybe something from this millennium.
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  3. #42
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by isaone View Post
    Those items in my list are proven facts and as such are examples of the 'stubborn' theist. The vast majority of people trained to study those items agree with the list as fact. They are not opinion any more that the earth having a molten iron core is an opinion!
    If someone has an opinion that is demonstrated to be incorrect, that does not make the opinionator stubborn. Your implication is that theists are stubborn for not being naturalists.

    Even so, you say they are all proven facts?

    Evolution did not happen
    Depends on your version of evolution. The "big" version hasn't been proven yet.

    The flood story and Noah is true
    Disproven? How?

    Jesus was born of a virgin ('young girl; appears to be a better translation)
    Disproven?

    The 'exodus' actually happened (no evidence has been found despite much effort)
    Since no evidence has been found, that makes it a fact, I suppose.

    American Indians are descended from the lost tribe of Israel (Mormons)
    That's been disproven too, right?

    72 Virgins await you if you die for the cause of Islam ('raisins' appears to be a better translation particularly since all other phrases of that section refer to foodstuff and fruit)
    That's been disproven as well? I need to get me this science manual you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by isaone
    Examples of Christian stubbornness were requested and supplied but please let's not now start discussing the items on my list, that we can save for other threads.
    So you present evidence in an attempt to support your argument, but you don't want to discuss the evidence? What's up with that?

    They were requested and supplied, and found to be irrelevant. If someone disagrees with your particular worldview, that doesn't mean they're stubborn. It means they disagree with you.

    You've also tried to lump young Earth creationists with all Christians, which is a little disingenuous. This does not describe the fundamental beliefs of Christianity.
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  4. #43
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Xan I am beginning to think it is impossible to have any discussion about anything with Theists because it appears that we are talking foreign languages to one another.

    isaone:
    • Believes the people who are experts in a field have more time and effort into studying it than I have enough hours in my life so I believe the majority opinion of experts to be fact.
    • Does not have enough time of mental ability to determine the exact beliefs of every religious believer
    • Does not have enough time in this life time to reply to a fraction of the issues that can be raised

    Xan:
    • Does not agree with my definition of stubborn
    • Does not accept the opinions of experts in their fields
    • Wants me to talk about only some particular kind of Christian
    • Choose to be picky about Evolution in some sense that he did not define
    • Expects me to be able to respond to an infinite number of questions concerning these points


    Reviewing the list I must say the weakest on is the virgins. Partially because it is so dangerous to do that research I think. But that is not the point. I will in fact discuss them if you insist but whenever I do if just goes something like;

    1. me: The flood did not happen. There simply is not enough water and there is no geological evidence
    2. them: How do you know there is not enough water
    3. me: I cannot do the math myself but here is a link that does
    4. them: Oh yeah I know those people, they were found to have embezzled a gazillion dollars and gave it to the communists you can't trust them
    5. me: How about here
    6. them: No they are completely wrong in calculating the density of rock on line 47a
    7. me: Huh what difference does that make?
    8. them:Not only that but my religion does not think the flood covered every thing to the same depth. We believe that there were lumps due to the fact that gravity was more variable in the ancient days and the speed of light was slower
    9. me:Huh, can you prove that
    10. them: Can you prove it was not the way I believe it happened .
    11. ..and so on and so on
    12. ..


    I must say that the thing I most admire about a honest scientist is the fact that they will abandon a lifetime's of belief when shown evidence that they were incorrect. To take the Mormons as an example, in the face of no archaeological evidence and genetic testing that proves the entire story of their holy book to be false they make no changes. Or take any number of items from the flood story that make it a myth 1) Amount of water 2) Food for the animals 3) Just plain cubic feet for the beetles alone 4) Food for the carnivores 5) Physical impossibility of removing the amount of excrement by a small group of humans 6) Food for the animals that eat only fresh leaves 7) No Koala remains found anywhere but Australia despite (and of course a Eucalyptus tree takes years to grow before it has leaves so they would have starved en route.) the fact it would have taken them years to get there. Yet many millions of Christians will not accept this fact. This is what I think we are talking about with the term stubborn.

  5. #44
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    isaone:
    • Believes the people who are experts in a field have more time and effort into studying it than I have enough hours in my life so I believe the majority opinion of experts to be fact.
    You're suggesting a consensus and an objective frame of reference in many more areas than I think is intellectually honest to claim.

    Xan:
    • Does not agree with my definition of stubborn
    Your definition of stubborn would appear to be no more than "disagreeing with what I believe." That's a rather arbitrary standard. Anybody who takes an opposing view is stubborn for not seeing your side of it?

    Does not accept the opinions of experts in their fields
    Takes them with a grain of salt. Acceptance should come with reasoning. If my reasoning disagrees with yours, then what you accept is relative.

    Wants me to talk about only some particular kind of Christian
    No, I said the general Christian instead of the young Earth creationists you're trying to categorize them as.

    Choose to be picky about Evolution in some sense that he did not define
    An evolution that does not satisfy the conditions of the development of life, or in the creation of species.

    Expects me to be able to respond to an infinite number of questions concerning these points
    Points that you brought up, no less.

    Quote Originally Posted by isaone
    To take the Mormons as an example, in the face of no archaeological evidence and genetic testing that proves the entire story of their holy book to be false they make no changes.
    You should study these issues more closely than to take the propaganda at face value. Your bias is allowing you to accept things that you want to hear.

    Quote Originally Posted by isaone
    Or take any number of items from the flood story that make it a myth 1) Amount of water 2) Food for the animals 3) Just plain cubic feet for the beetles alone 4) Food for the carnivores 5) Physical impossibility of removing the amount of excrement by a small group of humans 6) Food for the animals that eat only fresh leaves 7) No Koala remains found anywhere but Australia despite (and of course a Eucalyptus tree takes years to grow before it has leaves so they would have starved en route.) the fact it would have taken them years to get there. Yet many millions of Christians will not accept this fact. This is what I think we are talking about with the term stubborn.
    There are many potential scenarios. There's no way to disprove all of them, as you have suggested. The level of proof that you imply is just not there. You're exaggerating your case by stating absolutes. That's rather unscientific of you to do so.
    anything could be an illusion and we wouldn't know the difference... proof schmoof...

  6. #45
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Booger View Post
    Then you're simply not grounded in reality. It should come as no surprise to anyone that there is a correlation between higher IQ and rejection of religious faith.
    I feel quite confident in saying that my IQ is far above "average" and yet I have strong religious conviction. Seems to disprove your little theory there.

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  7. #46
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Christains are stubburn for the same reasons atheist and evolutionist are. What good are your beliefs if you dont take them to the grave. No one is simply going to decide to go to the other side. They have to be proven wrong. JUst like you arent going to believe you are wrong unless someone provfes you wrong. Just like you say, the belief is faith based. Evidence of things unseen. Christains do not need the same proof you do because they already possess evidence.

  8. #47
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Booger View Post
    I think we all agree that it takes a certain level of intelligence to shed the security blanket that is religion and come to the correct conclusion on the side of science and reason, but takes almost no mindpower for a person to continue to wrap himself in the comforting cloak of religion...
    I think I'm going to vomit, from argumentum ad nauseam. You just assert that you have the high ground until everyone buys it. We can make educational leaps and bounds, and it just doesn't matter. Somehow you are exempt from the process we mere nitwits undergo, able to tally points as you please. Well guess what? I'm willing to bet my damned retirement savings that there are several ODN members here who not only have a higher IQ than you, but much, much more education under their belts. Want to meet my bet?

    Hahahahaha, it takes no mindpower to read some of the most complex literature there is daily. Of course, it takes absolutely no mindpower to learn ancient languages, cosmology, biology, anthropology, history, etc. either. It just takes no thought whatsoever to be a member of a religion with one of the richest philosophical traditions in history. And I guess Thomas Aquinas was nothing but your intellectual inferior.

    I almost feel like saying that this has been one of your dumbest assertions here so far, but I know that you've made several more epic fails since I've started coming here, and apparently you've been at it since November of 2003. There's probably four more years of this kind of crap as well as some smelly jewels between '07 and '10 when I joined.
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  10. #48
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    My two cents...

    Blind, unquestioned loyalty is an obvious tactic employed by most religions to hold you prisoner. The very thought of questioning any religion aspect is punishable (to variable degrees by different religions) - hence the word 'blasphemy' was born

  11. #49
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by liteoid View Post
    My two cents...

    Blind, unquestioned loyalty is an obvious tactic employed by most religions to hold you prisoner. The very thought of questioning any religion aspect is punishable (to variable degrees by different religions) - hence the word 'blasphemy' was born
    Hmm, this seems to be related more to some strawman of what religion is. Blasphemy is not questioning, blasphemy is maintaining as truth something you usually do not have the authority to maintain. Regardless, how do apologetics for Christians fit into your world view? They are clearly not following blind faith, but questioning and examining their faith.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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  13. #50
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash
    [sarcasm]It just takes no thought whatsoever to be a member of a religion with one of the richest philosophical traditions in history.[sarcasm]
    Yes, that would be correct. It takes no critical thinking whatsoever to become a Christian. Pure faith alone is enough. There's even a theological name for this doctrine if you're interested. It's called sola fides.

    Extremely few religionists are theologians or apologists (which, fwiw, means a defender of the faith, not a skeptic or independent thinker searching for truth) for their faith. The vast majority of Christians simply accept their religion uncritically and pretty much unquestioningly.

  14. #51
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez
    It takes no critical thinking whatsoever to become a Christian.
    Challenge to support a claim.Support that it takes no critical thinking to become a Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez
    There's even a theological name for this doctrine if you're interested. It's called sola fides.
    Since you are so well-read in Christian doctrine and history, perhaps you could explain to us what Sola fide means and the origins of the phrase.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez
    The vast majority of Christians simply accept their religion uncritically and pretty much unquestioningly.
    Challenge to support a claim.Support or retract.

  15. #52
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Freund View Post
    Challenge to support a claim.Support that it takes no critical thinking to become a Christian.
    One can become a Christian by sheer faith alone which doesn't require critical thinking. You didn't know that?



    Since you are so well-read in Christian doctrine and history, perhaps you could explain to us what Sola fide means and the origins of the phrase.
    Don't be lazy. Look it up for yourself.



    Challenge to support a claim.Support or retract.
    "These studies demonstrate yet another way in which our thinking tendencies, many of which may be innate, have contributed to religious faith. It may also help explain why the vast majority of Americans tend to believe in God. Since System 2 thinking requires a lot of effort, the majority of us tend to rely on our System 1 thinking processes when possible." -- from the article "How Critical Thinkers Lose Their Faith in God" in the May 2012 issue of "Scientific American" http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...ith-god&page=2

    System 1, in the above passage, refers to intuitive thinking. System 2 is analytical (i.e., critical) thinking.

    I suggest you read the entire article.

  16. #53
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez
    One can become a Christian by sheer faith alone which doesn't require critical thinking.
    Sorry for the confusion, I could have framed the challenge better. See below:

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez
    Don't be lazy. Look it up for yourself.
    The reason I issued the challenge is because I presume you have a false understanding of Sola fide. As you are the one forwarding the claim that becoming Christian requires no critical thinking and have cited the doctrine of Sola fide as support, I am asking you to explain how Sola fide supports that claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez
    I suggest you read the entire article.
    The article does not support your claim in the least. Let me remind you that your claim is that the vast majority of Christians accept their religion uncritically. The article contrasts critical thinking with intuitive thinking, not critical thinking with uncritical thinking.

  17. #54
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    The reason I issued the challenge is because I presume you have a false understanding of Sola fide. As you are the one forwarding the claim that becoming Christian requires no critical thinking and have cited the doctrine of Sola fide as support, I am asking you to explain how Sola fide supports that claim.
    Sola fides is a doctrine that says mere belief in Jesus, whether that belief results from a critical thinking process or not, is enough for one to become saved. It is usually seen in argument in opposition to the Catholic doctrine that good works, along with faith, is necessary for salvation.


    The article does not support your claim in the least. Let me remind you that your claim is that the vast majority of Christians accept their religion uncritically. The article contrasts critical thinking with intuitive thinking, not critical thinking with uncritical thinking.
    The article implies that intuitive thinking is uncritical thinking. What do you consider "critical thinking" and "intuitive thinking" to be?

  18. #55
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    Yes, that would be correct. It takes no critical thinking whatsoever to become a Christian. Pure faith alone is enough. There's even a theological name for this doctrine if you're interested. It's called sola fides.
    Isn't the same true for atheism? You can be an atheist by simply believing there is no God right?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  19. #56
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Isn't the same true for atheism? You can be an atheist by simply believing there is no God right?
    Tu quoque fallacy.

  20. #57
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez
    Sola fides is a doctrine that says mere belief in Jesus, whether that belief results from a critical thinking process or not, is enough for one to become saved. It is usually seen in argument in opposition to the Catholic doctrine that good works, along with faith, is necessary for salvation.
    The problem with your argument is that Sola fide has nothing to say regarding how one comes to believe, but is rather as you indicate a doctrinal rejection of the Catholic view of salvation. To say that it is an example of how one can become a Christian without critical thinking is simply misguided and incorrect.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez
    The article implies that intuitive thinking is uncritical thinking. What do you consider "critical thinking" and "intuitive thinking" to be?
    I don't see that, and even in the source data I cannot fathom how such a conclusion could be drawn. In my view, critical thinking is essentially a reflective thought process base in reason, whereas intuitive thinking is based more on acquired knowledge, past experience and "gut feeling". Both styles are equally important and valuable as means of acquiring knowledge and truth.

    That being said, even the leaders of the early church encouraged critical thinking and thought as an integral part of the discipleship process--which is why when you say one can "become Christian" without critical thought, it exposes your ignorance and faulty understanding of basic Christian doctrine and history.

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  22. #58
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    Yes, that would be correct. It takes no critical thinking whatsoever to become a Christian. Pure faith alone is enough. There's even a theological name for this doctrine if you're interested. It's called sola fides.
    It can be said of all philosophies that it "takes no critical thinking to become X." There is no point to be made there it seems.

    Extremely few religionists are theologians or apologists (which, fwiw, means a defender of the faith, not a skeptic or independent thinker searching for truth) for their faith. The vast majority of Christians simply accept their religion uncritically and pretty much unquestioningly.
    Please support or retract.

    Challenge to support a claim.

    Furthermore, one does not need to be an apologist or theologian to employ critical thinking. There is much observance of using evidence to further God's plan and Jesus' teaching throughout the Bible. Not sure what point you are trying to make there Rod...but it doesn't seem to be sticking to the board very well.
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  23. #59
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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rodriguez View Post
    Tu quoque fallacy.
    Not at all, I was simply asking you a question. You were imply the Ad Hom fallacy here not I, I was simply pointing out its implication if taken as a universal rule, as you seem to be implying.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Why are christians so naturally stubborn?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Not at all, I was simply asking you a question.
    Sorry, I thought the question bore some relationship to the thread. I had no idea it was just a random question.

    You were imply the Ad Hom fallacy here not I, I was simply pointing out its implication if taken as a universal rule, as you seem to be implying.
    No idea what this mess means.

 

 
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