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Thread: Damn Democrats!

  1. #1
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    Damn Democrats!

    Americans will not do better under the forthcoming Democratic Reign. Despite the weakness of the US dollar, and our increasing inability to own a home the democrats are going to tax the pants off of America. Their tax on the so-called rich is a humongous tax on the middle class.

    The new tax bill will add a 4% surtax on Americans earning more than $150,000 a year ($200,000 for couples). That is on top of the scheduled expiration of the 2001 and 2003 tax cuts. So, under Democrats’ plan, over the next few years, the individual income top tax rate in the United States will rise from 35% to 44%.

    Compare this to corporate tax rates. Multi-million dollar corporations pay 25% on the first 25,000, 15% on the next 50,000, and 36% on anything over 75,000. Corporations are outsourcing and raking in the dollars; yet, Americans are financing a spendthrift Congress.

  2. #2
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    You can thank Dubya for the tax increase. Someone has to clean up his "spend and don't tax" mess. How do you propose we deal with his war price tag? Ignore it? Hope it goes away?

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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    You can thank Dubya for the tax increase. Someone has to clean up his "spend and don't tax" mess. How do you propose we deal with his war price tag? Ignore it? Hope it goes away?
    Hmm, perhaps we should cut the wasteful spending and pork? Na that would be way to simple.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Squatch, that'd be great, but we have to pay for what's already been done since it wasn't properly funded to begin with. Trickle down, my friend, trickle down.
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    I understand that, but remember tax revenues are much, much higher than they were before the tax cuts. Increasing taxes will only slow the economy and reduce revenues. And believe me I'm not defending the spending here. Though remember military spending was only a tiny portion of the overall increases, most of which went to pork.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  6. #6
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    If I don't vote for democrats will my fortunes improve? Maybe we should outsource our elected leaders.

    Just today I read that a local landowner was hit with a 700% tax increase on some land he bought last year. It's prime real estate that was "undervalued" in the past. Watch out for a tax assesor near you to put the squeaze on.
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Hmm, perhaps we should cut the wasteful spending and pork? Na that would be way to simple.
    Why not do both ! Cut spending and adjust taxation where the budget is balanced again. These past years, growth and economic vigor have been financed by borrowing money. It's need to be paid back somehow, and the bleeding stopped.

    I don't vote in the U.S., but it only seem common sense.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    But the issue is, democrats labor under a false assumption that raising taxes will increase revenue. Which it doesn't. The US currently recieves far, far more revenue do to the tax cuts than it did before them. Lower taxes, means larger growth and then larger revenues. Cut pork, leave taxes alone, or lower them and the budget will balance.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    If this below graph is to be believed, the federal revenue during the Bush years have been less then stellar. This is after the high from the Clinton years (Which had surpluses, rather then huge deficits) . Granted that 9/11 had a profound impact, do you have a good explanation for this ?



    Source, Heritage Foundation.
    Last edited by Vandaler; October 27th, 2007 at 02:56 PM. Reason: polished
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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  10. #10
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Hmm, curious. Canada's income taxes aren't higher than the US on a purely federal level, it seems. Here's our tax schedule for 2006 - people earning $118,000 ($121k US) to infinity only pay 29% to the feds.

    Quote Originally Posted by YahooYeager
    Their tax on the so-called rich is a humongous tax on the middle class.
    $150,000 for one person or $200,000 for two? Middle class?

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I understand that, but remember tax revenues are much, much higher than they were before the tax cuts.
    Nominally, perhaps. But not in real terms, when we account for inflation. Taxes have been slashed and expenses have skyrocketed, and Republican disregard for the phenomenon has left us with a deficit that has been ballooning for years. It's time to clean up the mess and turn American taxpayer money into value for Americans, rather than interest payments. And there should be two halves to solving that problem - increasing taxes and reducing expenditures.

    Sure, increased taxes may slow the economy (and I say "may" because whether it will do so depends on the magnitude of the increase; 4% on people earning $150,000 plus will hardly make them stop working), but so will a compounding deficit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch
    But the issue is, democrats labor under a false assumption that raising taxes will increase revenue. Which it doesn't.
    Heard of the Laffer curve? Your theory is only correct if we're already at the peak of tax revenue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler
    If this below graph is to be believed, the federal revenue during the Bush years have been less then stellar. This is after the high from the Clinton years (Which had surpluses, rather then huge deficits) . Granted that 9/11 had a profound impact, do you have a good explanation for this ?
    Easy explanation - Bush had little to no fiscal prudence when it came to government funds. He criticized "tax and spend" liberals and then went on his own "spend and don't tax" spree. Clinton saw strong economic growth and pulled the government out of the earlier Republican deficit.
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    If this below graph is to be believed, the federal revenue during the Bush years have been less then stellar. This is after the high from the Clinton years (Which had surpluses, rather then huge deficits) . Granted that 9/11 had a profound impact, do you have a good explanation for this ?



    Source, Heritage Foundation.
    I don't really know what there is to explain there. Revenue drops during the clinton administration, then starts picking up during the Bush administration, coincidentally right after the tax cuts. Seems pretty clear to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by star
    Nominally, perhaps. But not in real terms, when we account for inflation.
    Not true, see vandelar's graph.

    Quote Originally Posted by star
    Sure, increased taxes may slow the economy (and I say "may" because whether it will do so depends on the magnitude of the increase; 4% on people earning $150,000 plus will hardly make them stop working), but so will a compounding deficit.
    I'm not arguing for a deficit. And I'm not absolving the President for his spending policies, which have been absurd. I am arguing that the way to fix it is to cut wasteful government spending and lower taxes in ways that stimulate the economy.

    As for taxing those who make above a 100,000 all you are going to do is encourage them to hide the money in inefficient ways. Every year, trillions of dollars go to waste involving tax avoidance measures. There are very simple ways to fix it, people just refuse to do so.

    And the Laffer curve is certainly correct, however it fails to take into account that as you raise taxes you encourage people and corporations to use means to hide that money, taxes escapes that are extremely inefficient economically.

    Your comments concerning vandelar's graph are spurious, the graph clearly shows revenue dropping during the clinton administration and it increasing during Bush's.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I don't really know what there is to explain there. Revenue drops during the clinton administration, then starts picking up during the Bush administration, coincidentally right after the tax cuts. Seems pretty clear to me.
    You clearly misread the graph.

    The revenue go up steadily during the Clinton years (93-01) to peak around 2000. They are still higher then in other post-war period when he leaves office.

    It's from then on that it goes south. I really can't see how you can contest that.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Oh gosh, this reminds me of the Public Forum topic this month. xD Ok ok, here's the deal. Clinton was in office. We had a HUUUGE surplus. Bush gets in office. Bush can't do ANYTHING that would seem even slightly liberal! He must not make the people mad and tax them, when we need money to do stuff. So, what does Bush do? Oh, he shows his incredible intelligence by speeeeeending money, just spending...oh. Damn. Our surplus is gone. In fact, now we have a deficit. That's not good. Sure wish we would have had tax increases to sorta counteract this a bit. But then again, if we had, Bush would just have had more money to waste. =P

    Democrats aren't gonna hurt this country. Well, of course you never know, you can't predict the future of course. But democrats have no more of a chance of "ruining America" than republicans do. But democratic ideals would more than likely help us HUGELY right now. We need those taxes, our federal budget is going down the drain. It's not like taxing more, just by that much, those families will have it that bad. They might not be able to afford to buy their kids 3 new cars for their birthday, but I think they'll live. It's a small sacrifice to make to heal the damage Bush has done to our country.

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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    You can thank Dubya for the tax increase. Someone has to clean up his "spend and don't tax" mess. How do you propose we deal with his war price tag? Ignore it? Hope it goes away?
    Perhaps only taxing those who voted for Bush, especially the second time. And we can let the GOP help replace the money missing from Iraq funding. In the business world, someone is always accountable for fraud and mismanagement.
    Just another hostile non-theist.

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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Vandaler View Post
    You clearly misread the graph.

    The revenue go up steadily during the Clinton years (93-01) to peak around 2000. They are still higher then in other post-war period when he leaves office.

    It's from then on that it goes south. I really can't see how you can contest that.
    No, no I didn't. There was a huge surplus that starts to rise when the repulicans take over the congress. Then towards the end of Clinton's presidency the economy goes south (it was a cyclical and migratory recession, so not really his fault). Then 9/11, which accellerates the recession. Bush's tax cuts come in and the economy rebounds, which your graph clearly shows. I'm not saying the economy during clinton's presidency wasn't good. I'm saying that your assertion that revenues after tax cuts were 'abysmal' is patently false.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I don't really know what there is to explain there. Revenue drops during the clinton administration, then starts picking up during the Bush administration, coincidentally right after the tax cuts. Seems pretty clear to me.
    Revenue as a percentage of GDP. That simply means that a greater percentage of the country's production was collected. What about the revenue in real terms? I know I saw a spreadsheet about it once, so I'm looking for it online...

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch
    I'm not arguing for a deficit. And I'm not absolving the President for his spending policies, which have been absurd. I am arguing that the way to fix it is to cut wasteful government spending and lower taxes in ways that stimulate the economy.
    And I'm arguing that if we want to remain any level of government services, cutting government programs won't be enough to pull the US out of the hole that your Republicans dug. As long as we aren't at the peak of the Laffer curve, increased taxes will yield more revenue.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch
    As for taxing those who make above a 100,000 all you are going to do is encourage them to hide the money in inefficient ways. Every year, trillions of dollars go to waste involving tax avoidance measures. There are very simple ways to fix it, people just refuse to do so.
    And we can continue to work to stop tax evasion, which is becoming less and less prevalent with greater record keeping and the computerization of money management.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch
    And the Laffer curve is certainly correct, however it fails to take into account that as you raise taxes you encourage people and corporations to use means to hide that money, taxes escapes that are extremely inefficient economically.
    There will always be people who escape the system, but business owners are under close government watch and salaried employees have few avenues for tax evasion. Further, large public corporations have more audit control procedures than one can fathom. While higher taxes may result in an increased desire to evade taxes, you have to demonstrate how it results in an increased ability to evade taxes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch
    No, no I didn't. There was a huge surplus that starts to rise when the repulicans take over the congress. Then towards the end of Clinton's presidency the economy goes south (it was a cyclical and migratory recession, so not really his fault). Then 9/11, which accellerates the recession. Bush's tax cuts come in and the economy rebounds, which your graph clearly shows. I'm not saying the economy during clinton's presidency wasn't good. I'm saying that your assertion that revenues after tax cuts were 'abysmal' is patently false.
    How does government revenue as a percentage of GDP indicate the strength of the economy, as per your claim that the "economy rebounds" upon the Bush tax cuts? If we raise taxes to 100% and government revenue is all of the GDP, does that mean the economy is magnificent?

    Secondly, the Clinton presidency saw far greater performance on many indicators than Bush. While you may not agree with some of them, even per capita GDP rose under Clinton to a greater extent than it did under Bush.


    PPI: Bush vs. Clinton: An Economic Performance Index by Robert D. Atkinson and Julie Hutto
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by star
    And I'm arguing that if we want to remain any level of government services, cutting government programs won't be enough to pull the US out of the hole that your Republicans dug. As long as we aren't at the peak of the Laffer curve, increased taxes will yield more revenue.
    Or reduced taxes would further stimulate the economy. And what kind of services are we talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by star
    And we can continue to work to stop tax evasion, which is becoming less and less prevalent with greater record keeping and the computerization of money management.
    Evidence? last time I heard the IRS said it was more prevelant now than ever before.

    As for the graph.
    Reduction in the national debt came about under a repbulican controlled congress, Clinton had nothing to do with it.

    The jobs category is meaningless, how can we have less jobs now than we did under clinton if we have a lower unemployment rate?

    I highly disagree with the Per Capita GDP indicator, the website explains that fewer people are working, but that isn't true, or the Unemployment rate would be higher, which it isn't.

    Also citing the Progressive policy institute doesn't really pull a lot of weight being a very bias think tank. Also look at thier citations. Fully half of them are citing their own website or agencies.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    I'm saying that your assertion that revenues after tax cuts were 'abysmal' is patently false.
    Fair enough on your interpretation of the graph.

    Just for the record however, I didn't assert anything about revenues being "abysmal". I rather used the more tempered "less then stellar" which is arguably a fair way to put it.
    A good hockey player plays where the puck is. A great hockey player plays where the puck is going to be.
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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    I knew I had misquoted you after I posted it, sorry. I suppose one could see it that way, however, many economists have argued the clinton years were an aberration. One that came from some relatively dangerous economic trends (.com bubble, a much smaller housing bubble, etc.). Still, revenues were were increasing, and that to me is the point of the economic recovery and stimulation due in large part to the tax cuts.
    Second, I hope we don't think I am absolving the president or the congress for the horrific spending. They are clearly to blame for the unnecessary spending. However, I think the democratic congress has already shown that it wishes to kick this to another level of insanity.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: Damn Democrats!

    Quote Originally Posted by starcreator View Post
    Republican disregard for the phenomenon has left us with a deficit that has been ballooning for years. It's time to clean up the mess and turn American taxpayer money into value for Americans, rather than interest payments. And there should be two halves to solving that problem - increasing taxes and reducing expenditures.

    Sure, increased taxes may slow the economy (and I say "may" because whether it will do so depends on the magnitude of the increase; 4% on people earning $150,000 plus will hardly make them stop working), but so will a compounding deficit.
    so many thoughts...

    Let's not forget who holds the national purse. It is true the deficit has been ballooning for years, but various Congresses-through the years-are responsible. U.S. government finances have experienced a remarkable shortfall in recent years. Gains of the previous decade have been lost. Instead of budget surpluses, deficits are projected as far as the eye can see. The deterioration has not been restricted to the federal budget, but has also taken place at the state and local government levels. Consequently, the U.S. deficit is now among the highest in the industrialized world.

    The large deficit raise two concerns. First, with a large federal deficit looming over the next decade, the recent cut of taxes and boost of defense and security expenditures come at the eventual cost of upward pressure on interest rates. Yes, Bernenke cut the rate; yet, it was the market who continully signaled the desired cut. Hence, the need for the Fed statement that future cuts will be less likely - much less likely. The markets response to the Fed statement - a sell off. Sell-offs inspire fear in the hearts of traders, and so does increasing gas prices. If increasing gas prices trigger core inflation then a corrective rise in interest rates will crowd out of private investment, harm small businesses, and erode the GDP. Now lets consider the effect of the inflation on the value of the US dollar. If the dollar continues to fall and the US market continues to decline then why wouldn't countries like China and Saudi Arabia want to pull their reserves from the US market. An outward flow of sovereign wealth is not going to help the situation.

    Second, the evaporation of fiscal surpluses reduces the governments ability to cope with retiring baby boomers, which will begin later this decade. Retirement of aging labor will place massive pressure on the Social Security and Medicare systems. Without the cushion provided by earlier so-called surpluses Americas elderly will sleep on the streets. Now, there is no time left to address the underlying insolvency before government deficits and debt begin to increase unsustainably.

    What was the Democratic solution this week? Politicking. Seeking to increase discretionary spending the dumb, dumb, Dems created a socialized child care package. OMG, that's going to help everyone. Earlier, Hilary wanted to give $5000 to every woman producing a child. Another stupid Congressional solution, increase the immigration of uneducated impoverished Central Americans. I wonder who are the bigger idiots the American People or Congress?
    Last edited by YahooYeager; November 3rd, 2007 at 08:30 AM.

 

 
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