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  1. #1
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    A New civil war?????

    In 2006 a poll was don in the 25 states of the union that had active movements to leave the nation and create a new government and nation.


    over 12% said yes
    the same thing was don in 2007
    over 16% said it was a grate idea.....

    what do you think.
    .... "Disicta Membra" the scattered remains.
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  2. #2
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    I think that breaking up things is easier than making better what we have, that is why some folks will always be for cessation.

    The same sort of folks also think that the grass is greener on the other side of the hill. Often they have not sent out in depth scouting parties before coming to such a conclusion.

    The same sort of moodiness goes on here in the UK and Holland and Belgium, and in Germany, and indeed most countries.

    Having said all that, I don't think that another ACW is likely - unless radical Islam gets control of a State or two.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by LDboy View Post
    In 2006 a poll was don in the 25 states of the union that had active movements to leave the nation and create a new government and nation.


    over 12% said yes
    the same thing was don in 2007
    over 16% said it was a grate idea.....

    what do you think.
    First off, I'd love to see where you got the numbers you're quoting here from and how those numbers were arrived at (what questions were asked, etc.).

    I have absolutely no concern about another Civil War. I truly believe that people who live in the United States see themselves more as Americans, not as New Yorkers or Georgians, etc, although I would find it interesting to see a poll done on that, actually. People in the United States move between states like it's no big deal...they follow jobs, they follow family, they move to warmer climates in the winter and cooler ones in the summer. For the average American, I don't think the idea of forming an entirely separate country is even on the radar.

    Furthermore, a lot of these state governments wouldn't be able to support themselves without the assistance of the federal government. That is really an indication of a problem, but it's the truth. The states aren't set up to truly function as real, independent countries.
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  4. #4
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by LDboy View Post
    In 2006 a poll was don in the 25 states of the union that had active movements to leave the nation and create a new government and nation.


    over 12% said yes
    the same thing was don in 2007
    over 16% said it was a grate idea.....

    what do you think.

    Well I don't believe that the US has any chance of survival as a free nation absent a civil war. The problem we have is that if you look into your data, the majority of those seeking to secede from the union are leftists:

    "I did not get involved with secessionist movements because I am a liberal who feels under-represented. I am tired of U.S. government policy: globally and ... " Mises Economics Blog: Secession Movement Gains Steam
    Stop Fascism! - The Anti-Fascist/Anti-Racist Shop : CafePress.com
    In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction - Boston.com
    Anger over Iraq and Bush prompts calls for secession from the US for Vermont - Independent Online Edition > Americas

    Now compare and contrast that groups desire to secede with the defacto ruling laid down in the national debate on the issue 1860-1861 where it was agreed that if you choose to secede we will raid your region, ransack your coummunities, draft your children, rape your cattle and stampede your women... with the left's stated philosphy on guns, extremism and of course violence.. (I mention that only to point out the duplicitous nature of the left, advancing pacivity as a means to promote the inevitability of violent revolution... )

    However with that said, Americans are unable to do much about it, in that by default leftists are incapable of reason, thus we aren't having any luck convincing them, through reason; and because we feel strongly that everyone is entitled to state their opinion where such is not a infringment on the right of another, we can't just start kicking their heads in because they're loud mouthed malcontents. However at some point the left will take measures which will cross a line that sets them in an analogous position as that which the Jihadi Islamists now enjoy...

    The only thing which bothers me about that inevitability is that as I see it, the pace at which they're presently on will set me and the Mrs. up to be refugees when they go full blown Red... We'll be too blind to shoot and too broke buy amunition anyway and too anti-leftists to remain quiet about it.

    So if we could just pick up the pace Comrades...

  5. #5
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Publius Infini View Post
    Well I don't believe that the US has any chance of survival as a free nation absent a civil war. The problem we have is that if you look into your data, the majority of those seeking to secede from the union are leftists:

    "I did not get involved with secessionist movements because I am a liberal who feels under-represented. I am tired of U.S. government policy: globally and ... " Mises Economics Blog: Secession Movement Gains Steam
    Stop Fascism! - The Anti-Fascist/Anti-Racist Shop : CafePress.com
    In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction - Boston.com
    Anger over Iraq and Bush prompts calls for secession from the US for Vermont - Independent Online Edition > Americas

    Now compare and contrast that groups desire to secede with the defacto ruling laid down in the national debate on the issue 1860-1861 where it was agreed that if you choose to secede we will raid your region, ransack your coummunities, draft your children, rape your cattle and stampede your women... with the left's stated philosphy on guns, extremism and of course violence.. (I mention that only to point out the duplicitous nature of the left, advancing pacivity as a means to promote the inevitability of violent revolution... )

    However with that said, Americans are unable to do much about it, in that by default leftists are incapable of reason, thus we aren't having any luck convincing them, through reason; and because we feel strongly that everyone is entitled to state their opinion where such is not a infringment on the right of another, we can't just start kicking their heads in because they're loud mouthed malcontents. However at some point the left will take measures which will cross a line that sets them in an analogous position as that which the Jihadi Islamists now enjoy...

    The only thing which bothers me about that inevitability is that as I see it, the pace at which they're presently on will set me and the Mrs. up to be refugees when they go full blown Red... We'll be too blind to shoot and too broke buy amunition anyway and too anti-leftists to remain quiet about it.

    So if we could just pick up the pace Comrades...

    I love it!

    I think we are in the throws of a silent revolution, at the moment. Just consider how polarized the country is, in a political sense. I don't know of any other time in our history, other than the mid 1800's, where we have been so diametrically opposed.

    If the conservatives win the White House in 08, I would half expect there to be some uprising by the leftists. That may very well be the catalyst you are looking for.
    "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain

  6. #6
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Yes, the time has come - we will either have to become lefties or righties; conservative or liberal; fascist or socialist. I see it all now - there will be street gangs and lynch mobs. Where did the middle ground go to?
    It would be a sad day if we become refugees in our own country.

    And Ivan says he loves it?
    While laughing at others stupidity, you may want to contemplate your own comedic talents. (link)
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  7. #7
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Snoop View Post
    Yes, the time has come - we will either have to become lefties or righties; conservative or liberal; fascist or socialist. I see it all now - there will be street gangs and lynch mobs. Where did the middle ground go to?
    It would be a sad day if we become refugees in our own country.

    And Ivan says he loves it?
    Sorry. I meant that I loved PI's response. His humor and wit.

    But I do feel we are on the verge of massive civil unrest. And it won't be the conservatives in the streets breaking windows, tipping cars and setting fire to businesses.
    "A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way." - Mark Twain

  8. #8
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by LDboy View Post
    In 2006 a poll was don in the 25 states of the union that had active movements to leave the nation and create a new government and nation.


    over 12% said yes
    the same thing was don in 2007
    over 16% said it was a grate idea.....

    what do you think.
    You should read Empire by Orson Scott Card.

  9. #9
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Here's another problem with the 'a new civil war is coming cry'--geographical issues are a big problem. Let's say the country did split ideologically between conservatives and liberals. What you'd end up with is a bunch of liberal islands (roughly city centers) in a hugely underpopulated conservative landmass. It's hard to form a cohesive governmental and social structure when you're surrounded by literally millions of square miles of everyone else. Even more fun is the fact that it doesn't even break down that simply. While urban areas tend to be more liberal there's lots of conservatives there and the same can be said of the suburban and rural areas. Unifying geography makes a big difference. Look at all these ethnic civil wars--the vast majority of these ethnicities were centered in a section of the larger nation, which eventually helped lead to fracturing along those ethnic lines.

    The North/South Civil War had the same thing going for it--a geographical commonality that allowed the concept of division to seem logical and practical. There's no such thing here.
    -= Phrique =-

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  10. #10
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    I believe that it was Mass that had the 16%....

    but i cant be sure.

    any why i was trying to fine something on it on the internet but for some resion i cant find it....
    so no they are Total Blue dog liberals

    any way i saw it on the Glen beck show....

    there is also a movement in the south and the two leaders where agreeing that thay should split up the nation,
    so its not just the libs its also the conys....


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    PS these two groups said that they would like to "Peaceably sessead from the nation." if that is posable. the south said that same thing and look what happened.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    PPS look at my sig now. Utah would not allow its self to be divided. look Mormons are considered Radical when it comes to our Unity.... and also however when it comes to peace. if there is a new ACW this will be a vary defining moment for All Mormons. and the Utah state its self. Honestly i think that The Mormons are the only ones that can live threw a New ACW with its center intact.
    Last edited by LDboy; November 9th, 2007 at 08:57 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    .... "Disicta Membra" the scattered remains.
    ...."Vir sapit qui pauca loquitur" It is a wise man who speaks little.
    "illegitimi non carborundum" Don't let the bastards grind you down.

  11. #11
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Phrique, you just tripped over the truth and kept on walking.

    Rarely do people set out to start a civil war. Invariably, when such wars break out both sides consider themselves to be the aggrieved ones. Right now in America, even though the Left has control of all the institutions of cultural power and prestige -- universities, movies, literary publishing, mainstream journalism-- as well as the federal courts, they feel themselves oppressed and threatened by traditional religion and conservatism. And even though the Right controls both houses of Congress and the presidency, as well as having ample outlets for their views in nontraditional media and an ever-increasing dominance over American religious and economic life, they feel themselves oppressed and threatened by the cultural dominance of the Left.

    And they are threatened, just as they are also threatening, because nobody is willing to accept the simple idea that someone can disagree with their group and still be a decent human being worthy of respect.

    Can it lead to war?

    Very simply, yes. The moment one group feels itself so aggrieved that it uses either its own weapons or the weapons of the state to "prevent" the other side from bringing about its supposed "evil" designs, then that other side will have no choice but to take up arms against them. Both sides will believe the other to be the instigator.

    The vast majority of people will be horrified -- but they will also be mobilized whether they like it or not.

    It's the lesson of Yugoslavia and Rwanda. If you were a Tutsi just before the Rwandan holocaust who did not hate Hutus, who married a Hutu, who hired Hutus or taught school to Hutu students, it would not have stopped Hutus from taking machetes to you and your family. You would have had only two choices: to die or to take up arms against Hutus, whether you had previously hated them or not.

    But it went further. Knowing they were doing a great evil, the Hutus who conducted the programs also killed any Hutus who were "disloyal" enough to try to oppose taking up arms.

    Likewise in Yugoslavia. For political gain, Serbian leaders in the post-Tito government maintained a drumbeat of Serbian manifest-destiny propaganda, which openly demonized Croatian and Muslim people as a threat to good Serbs. When Serbs in Bosnia took up arms to "protect themselves" from being ruled by a Muslim majority -- and were sponsored and backed by the Serbian government -- what choice did a Bosnian Muslim have but to take up arms in self-defense? Thus both sides claimed to be acting in self-defense, and in short order, they were.

    And as both Rwanda and Bosnia proved, clear geographical divisions are not required in order to have brutal, bloody civil wars. All that is required is that both sides come to believe that if they do not take up arms, the other side will destroy them.
    -Orson Scott Card, Empire

  12. #12
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    So more than ten percent of Americans want a new government? That is a lot of votes. I take it that there is a lot wrong with the nation you live in. In bending over backwards for the people you get soft, and in getting soft you make some people unhappy, since when the law is soft crime is in the spotlight, and people - in an informed society - notice. Same with politics. So we got a nation of people who live rather well, very well in fact, complaining about the standrad of living. Do you really see people running in the streets turning cars over? I do too, but why? When you are taken care of and well informed of what is going on around you, in the legal system and judicail one too, what harm can come? Sure there are lies, maybe more than in most other areas, but it is for the greater good. Think of all those things that you are running in the street for? Is it food to feed your starving family? Is it bricks to build a quaint house? What the heck is it for then, raging against the machine is an American concept that flourishes via hollywood to other corners of the world and makes all others foam at the mouth too. It is progress though, but is it not beastial?

    How do we deal with corruption then? The fat cats have power and are not willing to let people in on it, but through democaracy people are supposed to have it through the vote. How can you change that system of government, it makes sense. What will you replace it with, one that is even more corruptable? War is not the answer, people die, but without this might exerted by the people, what can they do? Hope for a resolution? You got a choice, running in the street burning cars for a wage increae like a beast, or, enjoying your lifestlye that has been afforded to you, the illusion that keeps the other majority happy. If so many people are happy enough to keep their hands unclenched, why shouldn't you be? Greed? Selfishness? You think running in a big group will make you right? You think running in a big group will deter police? You think you are not prone to the same faults put in writing each day by the papers, that you can replace them? They are probably good men leading your nation, but hey, we got lots of strking and demonstrating all over the world. Hysteria is bad. Don't listen, unless people are in dire straits, if you ask me.
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  13. #13
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by phrique View Post
    Here's another problem with the 'a new civil war is coming cry'--geographical issues are a big problem. Let's say the country did split ideologically between conservatives and liberals. What you'd end up with is a bunch of liberal islands (roughly city centers) in a hugely underpopulated conservative landmass. It's hard to form a cohesive governmental and social structure when you're surrounded by literally millions of square miles of everyone else. Even more fun is the fact that it doesn't even break down that simply. While urban areas tend to be more liberal there's lots of conservatives there and the same can be said of the suburban and rural areas. Unifying geography makes a big difference. Look at all these ethnic civil wars--the vast majority of these ethnicities were centered in a section of the larger nation, which eventually helped lead to fracturing along those ethnic lines.

    The North/South Civil War had the same thing going for it--a geographical commonality that allowed the concept of division to seem logical and practical. There's no such thing here.

    Well here's the problem with that... The left is in effect the infamous "10%"... Those ever having taken study of leadership know that without regard to the function of the group, 10% of the group are going to be malcontents and that those people need to be dealt with post haste, lest they infect the whole of the team... and they NEVER effect the team in a positive way. BECAUSE THEY ARE A FORCE OF NEGATIVITY.

    In terms of ideology, the left is that 10%.

    At the moment the left feels emboldened by polls where Bush is seen as being rejected by upwards of 70% of the population. Being nonetoobright, the left feels just CERTAIN that this means that 2 out of 3 people agree with THEM!

    It's absurd... of course.

    If asked if I am happy with the President's performance, I'd say "NO"... But I'm disastisified with the President's performance because of his tendency to lend credence to the feelings of leftists.


    Ya see? Both the comrade and myself are disatisfied... We just agree from diametrically opposing ground.

    Now this circumstance here is no different than any other human scenario wherein the options have grown unenviable due to chronic spineless rationalizationalism... Meaning had the US dealt with the communist insurgency in the late 1950s when we first realized that our way of life was being challenged we had choices (relatively speaking) analogous to: a cultural Icecream sandwich or a bowl of cultural Ice Cream... but instead we allowed our schools, legislature, judiciary, media and entertanment industries to become saturated with leftstink and now we're faced witht the choice between a cultural crap sandwich or a bowl of cultural crap... the REALLY bad news here is that no matter which way we go... we're still going to have to take a bight. Thus the civil war will come, it will come first in the population centers... rest assured. It must... or the world is screwed.

    The ideological left is an invalid argument being advanced as the purest essence of reason. It is in effect... a Cultural Cancer.

    Now if you were told that you had the big C, would you spend a lot of time rationalizing that "cancer cells are cells too!" or would you demand that those who specialize in such matters get to work immediately cutting the cancer out of the body... ? Would you be anxious to have your body carved up, your chest sawed open, your body pumped full of poison? Or would you accept that such was the means to an end; the unenviable choice which came matched with the unacceptable option? Sure you'd want them to do so with as little damage as possible to surrounding tissue, but surely the goal would be to remove the threat.

    Now were the cancer able, its likely that those cells would have a fine argument to suggest why cancer is actually preferred and that the real cancer is 'everything which is not cancer...' Oh what a fine debate it would be, with cancer cells eventually gaining control over the nueral network, where Cancer cells would give one another little awards... "Cancer Nobel Prizes" for instance...

    Yeah, sure that's funny (I thought it was hilarious...) but we know how silly it would be to even hesitate to remove the tiniest cancer from the human body, yet we sit and debate endlessly while we watch our national culture become corrupted by this malignant leftist ideology... Consider the odds were cancer to spread to comprise 10% of the body...

    I say civil war must come... I say because I've always been a ****-eyed optimist. I believe the world needs the United States and if Civil war does not come, if the US does not rid itself of this rapidly spreading tumor; the United States will inevitably succumb to leftism, which by it's very nature will strip from this world the greatest agent of freedom in human history: The concept of God given inalienable human rights, which due to the sacred responsibilities inherent within them, provide self sustaining unbridled individual liberty.
    Last edited by Publius Infini; November 10th, 2007 at 08:08 AM.

  14. #14
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Has anyone looked at the kind of states that want to seceed? New Hampshire? I don't think we should expect a real hard fight if it comes to one. Though I would hate to clean the maple syrup off of my tank.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Has anyone looked at the kind of states that want to seceed? New Hampshire? I don't think we should expect a real hard fight if it comes to one. Though I would hate to clean the maple syrup off of my tank.
    I think the real problem is, a fractured US shatters international confidance, debts start being demanded, triggers a recession. If Asian Economic crisis taught us anything, the global economy is a fickle bitch godess.

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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Small groups in out of the way places hardly makes for a shattered US.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Small groups in out of the way places hardly makes for a shattered US.
    It dosen't matter how large-scale a conflict it is. If the world gets even a whim of possiblity, pop goes monetary confidance in US output?

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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Well I would be curious to see the real numbers, I doubt these movements have any real backing.
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions. -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    And as both Rwanda and Bosnia proved, clear geographical divisions are not required in order to have brutal, bloody civil wars. All that is required is that both sides come to believe that if they do not take up arms, the other side will destroy them.[/INDENT]
    -Orson Scott Card, Empire
    Zhavric, you don't seriously expect us to accept these as valid comparisons, right? Just because Orson Scott Card attempts to make the comparison doesn't mean they're valid. Here's a few reasons why the comparison is, frankly, pathetic:
    1. Rwanda and Bosnia were primarily ethnic civil wars and involved real cases of ethnic cleansing and genocide. We're not talking about a remotely similar level of conflict here.
    2. In the US we're talking about a conflict of ideals that is generally waged verbally. You're not going to see a lot of liberal elite packing heat to take down the conservatives or the other way around.
    3. Most Americans are fat, happy, and lazy in their prosperity, which makes a huge difference in the likelihood for any large scale operation to rock the boat. In order for a large scale uprising to occur you need a huge plurality of one or both sides feeling that they're being oppressed. That simply isn't happening in any large scale here.
    4. Most Americans don't identify with the extremes of either party, and honestly don't like what either party is currently doing (US: New polls reveal mass opposition to Democrats and Republicans). Who's going to be fighting this civil war, Zhavric? The liberal and conservative think tankers? The country is too purple to split into red and blue.

    At Thanksgiving, hundreds of millions of Americans will sit around their feasts with their families and bitch and complain about the other side of the aisle. Then they'll fall asleep on their comfy La-Z-Boys while watching the NFL on their HD-TVs. They're not going to form a militia and charge out into the streets guns ablaze. There is no civil war coming in the United States. Most people are reasonable enough to see that there's simply no cause, and furthermore, have seen the devastation from other civil wars and want no part in it.

    Right now in America, even though the Left has control of all the institutions of cultural power and prestige -- universities, movies, literary publishing, mainstream journalism-- as well as the federal courts, they feel themselves oppressed and threatened by traditional religion and conservatism. And even though the Right controls both houses of Congress and the presidency, as well as having ample outlets for their views in nontraditional media and an ever-increasing dominance over American religious and economic life, they feel themselves oppressed and threatened by the cultural dominance of the Left.
    The problem with this assertion is that Card is echoing the sentiments of the talking heads on TV, not the average Joe. So, unless those talking heads are going to rise up and start shooting the place up, there will be no civil war.
    -= Phrique =-

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    Re: A New civil war?????

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan View Post
    Sorry. I meant that I loved PI's response. His humor and wit.

    But I do feel we are on the verge of massive civil unrest. And it won't be the conservatives in the streets breaking windows, tipping cars and setting fire to businesses.
    It will be if the economy tumbles to a point where business failure rises. The only thing keeping thinks together is a relatively stable economy. No one wants to upset the apple cart, and cause more economic woes. That means behaving ourselves, and everyone knows it. I don't see the "masses" anywhere on the horizon. The social situation will have to have a degree of hopelessness, such as if oil prices doubled, or Bush suspended elections next year for any reason.
    Just another hostile non-theist.

 

 
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