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  1. #1
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    Atheism vs. Theism

    Here it is guys......continue your discussion here and please let's try and keep other threads in this forumn on topic.

    Administrator....please put about the the last 4 pages of the "Whatis a true Christian?" thread here.


    "The what is atrue Christian" became hopelessly off topic starting at post # 105.

  2. #2
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Funny thing is, I started the thread in question because the one it came from got way off topic!


  3. #3
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by Godlesspagan
    Funny thing is, I started the thread in question because the one it came from got way off topic!

    Let's not be proud about how we have allowed things to deteriate ...things weren't like this a few months ago....

    COme on folks let's try and stay on topic....

  4. #4
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Sorry if I sounded PROUD Spart. I'm on your side in this if you haven't noticed. After all, I started the thread in question to try and help.

  5. #5
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus
    Administrator....please put about the the last 4 pages of the "Whatis a true Christian?" thread here.
    Uno minuto por favor.
    Do or do not, there is no try. - Master Jedi Yoda
    He's Kermit on acid who happens to carry a big stick when pissed off. Big deal. - Apokalupsis
    Actually, didn't Frank Oz do Bert as well? We're cousins! - Withnail in reference to Bert and Yoda

  6. #6
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    I'm putting this here cuz I don't know where else to put it. I don't want to muck up the True Christian thread anymore, but GS makes some points here regarding Atheism vs. Theism that might be worth exploring in this thread. So, I'll just put it here.

    P.S. I also wanted to apologize to everyone for my part in taking the thread so off topic and for participating in less than respectable behavior on the forum. I mean...I don't have a problem with being less than respectable when it comes to things like shameless flirtation and sexual innuendos, but I don't like to be a poor communicator and I don't like contributing to the cause of disruptions. I prefer to lay lower than that.

    GodlessSkeptic...

    For this...

    Quote Originally Posted by GodlessSkept
    Furthermore when people like me come along who have no faith beliefs adn rely on reason in ALL matters where it is useful, you indicate that we are wrong ro follish for doing so.
    For this...

    Quote Originally Posted by GS
    Are you even following the discussion Grasshoppa? You seem to be trying to agree with me that the mind is a product/function of the physical brain but you cannot bear the thought of simple agreement with me so you post nonsense.
    For this...

    Quote Originally Posted by GS
    *Chuckle* Now you are going to tell US skeptics what we "really are" eh? Maybe I should try this on you. Christians are lying, manipulative bigots. If Happylady is not so then she is not a christian.

    Does that work for you?
    For this...

    Quote Originally Posted by GS
    No. And Why don't you stop with the "Then you admit..." nonsense. Grow up child.
    For this...

    Quote Originally Posted by GS
    The same thing you would have if God does not exist. Pattern recognition behavior(aren't you suppose to be an expert in psychology or something??? I can't believe you are unfamiliar with this common phenomenom of human psychology?)
    And most especially for this...

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyLady
    I am not about to share my view of what God is to you until you demonstrate the ability to analyze it appropriately.
    Quote Originally Posted by GS
    ROTFLMAO!! Let me translate for those who don't speak 'Gibberish':
    "Unless you agree to my unqualified assertions adn abandon your silly, limited 'reason', I will not bother to define the thing I am claiming exists!"
    I am not longer communicating with you.

    Your debates are ego-driven and your assumptions about me couldn't be more wrong. And when I read your posts, I get sucked right into it and I become ego-driven, too. After reading over a lot of what was exchanged between us, I know that it makes no difference if I answer your questions accurately or don't, you will pick any response apart and lace it with sarcasm and condescension so you can walk away feeling good about yourself and feeling *right.*

    While there is a part of me that finds that kind of debate tantalizing, because I like to feel *right*, too (obviously, or I would have walked away from you long ago), it is a form of communication that I find no value in. I also noticed in reading over this debate that I wasted a lot of energy debating with you and getting absolutely nowhere, when my efforts could have been more productively spent on some very good debators where progress is often made. When I debate with more experienced, less ego-driven debators, I don't feel ego-driven myself. I simply want to learn what I can about perspectives that are different from mine and maybe offer something of my perspective to others as well. That's why I'm here. I am not here to feed your ego, nor am I here to feed mine. At least...that is what I am aspiring to.

    I'd say it's been fun, but it hasn't.
    Last edited by HappyLady; August 20th, 2004 at 09:01 PM.
    Souls of the animal kingdom: eagle, fox, bottle-nose dolphin, octopus, house cat. Okay, let's jump this jump. -- Rod Kimble

  7. #7
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by RTShatto
    Uno minuto por favor.
    Scratch that, Ill get it done some time this weekend...its taking me forever to go through all the post's and decide which ones to move >_<
    Do or do not, there is no try. - Master Jedi Yoda
    He's Kermit on acid who happens to carry a big stick when pissed off. Big deal. - Apokalupsis
    Actually, didn't Frank Oz do Bert as well? We're cousins! - Withnail in reference to Bert and Yoda

  8. #8
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    *** Now now, seriously you guys...debate about "Atheism vs Theism"...if you are tired of debating with Spart or any other member who is serious about such issues, then please stay out of the debate. I will start deleting post's that are humorous to say the least...and off topic :( ***


    We have the off topic forums for such comedy
    Last edited by RTShatto; August 21st, 2004 at 12:32 AM.
    Do or do not, there is no try. - Master Jedi Yoda
    He's Kermit on acid who happens to carry a big stick when pissed off. Big deal. - Apokalupsis
    Actually, didn't Frank Oz do Bert as well? We're cousins! - Withnail in reference to Bert and Yoda

  9. #9
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    It seems to me that the issue of the presence of atheists in the world IS a factor in part of the fervency of Christain attitudes. Frankly, I see the clarification of whether a Christian's god exists (as a basis for their beliefs) is relevant, and if one (or some) of them think atheism somehow is related (even as a polarity) then to say that discussion went off topic is questionable.
    Just another hostile non-theist.

  10. #10
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by RTShatto
    *** Now now, seriously you guys...debate about "Atheism vs Theism"...if you are tired of debating with Spart or any other member who is serious about such issues, then please stay out of the debate. I will start deleting post's that are humorous to say the least :( ***

    We have the off topic forums for such comedy
    Sorry, RT. Just feeling a little frisky tonight.

    Do you like to do the limbo??

    Nay I say - RTShatto
    Last edited by RTShatto; August 20th, 2004 at 10:18 PM.
    To begin to think is to begin to be undermined.
    Albert Camus, An Absurd Reasoning

    Who knows most, doubts most.
    Robert Browning

  11. #11
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by HappyLady
    I'm putting this here cuz I don't know where else to put it. I don't want to muck up the True Christian thread anymore, but GS makes some points here regarding Atheism vs. Theism that might be worth exploring in this thread. So, I'll just put it here.

    P.S. I also wanted to apologize to everyone for my part in taking the thread so off topic and for participating in less than respectable behavior on the forum. I mean...I don't have a problem with being less than respectable when it comes to things like shameless flirtation and sexual innuendos, but I don't like to be a poor communicator and I don't like contributing to the cause of disruptions. I prefer to lay lower than that.

    GodlessSkeptic...

    For this...



    For this...



    For this...



    For this...



    For this...



    And most especially for this...





    I am not longer communicating with you.
    That's nice as I was getting a little tired of being insulted, disrespected and having quotes taken out of context to try and make ME look like the arsehole(as you did AGAIN above).

    Your debates are ego-driven and your assumptions about me couldn't be more wrong.
    Your assumptions about ME(case in point:"Ego driven") are way off but you cannot see that for your zealotry. I do not make "assumptions" about people and I did not do so about YOU. I can only go by what you SAY here and analyse your ARGUMENTS. Your arguments were flawed adn when I pointed out the errors, you responded with insulting strawman mischaracterizations, false and out of context quotes, a TON of bald assertions(again, usually quite insulting) but for some reason if the atheist repsonds to all of that with anything besides a "Thank you ma'am may I have another?" we are jerks.



    And when I read your posts, I get sucked right into it and I become ego-driven, too. After reading over a lot of what was exchanged between us, I know that it makes no difference if I answer your questions accurately or don't, you will pick any response apart and lace it with sarcasm and condescension so you can walk away feeling good about yourself and feeling *right.*
    You know what...the ONLY times I break out the sarcasm is either a)I am talking to someone else with a sense of humor and b) I am being insulted by a relative novice at the game of insult.

    I do not presume that you have a sense of humor and your own posts confirm that you were trying to insult me...hence my sarcasm.

    While there is a part of me that finds that kind of debate tantalizing, because I like to feel *right*, too (obviously, or I would have walked away from you long ago), it is a form of communication that I find no value in. I also noticed in reading over this debate that I wasted a lot of energy debating with you and getting absolutely nowhere, when my efforts could have been more productively spent on some very good debators where progress is often made.
    HERE is your problem! You PRESUME that you are right and do not for a second consider you could be completely wrong and that the reason someone like me(and about a half dozen others) might be criticisng so much of what you post MIGHT jsut be because you make that many errors. You presume that you MUST be to some degree or other, correct and therefore deserving of some sort of concessions from me(and others).

    In debate, you have to EARN your points! No one OWES them to you under threat of being considered a jerk for not granting them. When your 1,000 word attacks are chock FULL of logical fallacies, I have the right to call you on EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. I seldom do so because some are just insignifigant in the grand scheme but when you make THAT many errors I OWE it to you to criticise just as when I make such errors, I am taken to task.

    Debates are not measured by how close the participants come to 50/50 agreement or some nonsense! I am not OBGLIGATED to concede points to neo-nazi skin headsd when I debate them out of some bizarre "gentlemen's agreement". If they make fallacious arguments, I let 'em have it!



    When I debate with more experienced, less ego-driven debators,
    Case in point: You DARE to call ME ego-driven and insinuate that I am some sort of disrespectful miscreant when YOU toss out this crap! You did this ALL THROUGHOUT our exchanges, which wouldn't normally bother me much if I WERE debating someone who knew the first thing about debate, but YOU...! You are like a woman who has been divorced 5 times and cannot escape her own alcoholism and yet tries to give others advice on relationships and responsibility! WHo do you know who is "more experienced" than I and how do you know this? Who do you know who is "less ego-driven" than I and how do you know this?



    I don't feel ego-driven myself. I simply want to learn what I can about perspectives that are different from mine and maybe offer something of my perspective to others as well.
    No you don't. You say this because you are trying to find a way to confer some faux humility to contrast with your strawman mischaracterization of ME. There were 6 or 7 people trying to explain what atheism was to you and you were not interested in learning. You simply attacked us(welll, mostly ME) for not telling you what you wanted to hear. For not conforming to your preconceptions of what we were supposed to be.



    You are young(not meaning that as insult or condescension). You have a full life ahead of you and the potential to learn a lot. But you have to stop presuming that you know everything and everyone. You do NOT know ME. You have never met anyone like ME(as far as you know). You do not know atheism or skepticism. If you want to learn about ME then ask ME. Do not assume you already know me then speculate about my ego or attitude because when you do this I will eventually take offense and retort and when I retort you will see it as confirmation of your presumptions. If you want to learn about atheism or skepticism then ask AN ATHEIST or SKEPTIC, THEN go do your own research to compliment this information. DO NOT draw conclusions a prior and then attack atheists and skeptics for telling you differently.


    That's why I'm here. I am not here to feed your ego, nor am I here to feed mine. At least...that is what I am aspiring to.

    I'd say it's been fun, but it hasn't.
    Whatever. Been twice as painful for us. *Waves*
    Last edited by GodlessSkept; August 21st, 2004 at 01:31 AM.

  12. #12
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Cool it. GS, I think Happy Lady has a point. You need to be at least a little more respectful of her beliefs and those of others.
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

  13. #13
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by F1Fan
    It seems to me that the issue of the presence of atheists in the world IS a factor in part of the fervency of Christain attitudes. Frankly, I see the clarification of whether a Christian's god exists (as a basis for their beliefs) is relevant, and if one (or some) of them think atheism somehow is related (even as a polarity) then to say that discussion went off topic is questionable.
    I feel the same way, however it seems that instead of debating the relevance of atheism to "What is a true Christian?", people were instead debating solely on the issue of atheism and not how atheism applied to the question "What is a true Christian?".

    I understand that some points needed to be made clear (i.e. atheism), but obviously people cant agree on even that issue, so Spartacus' "thread split" idea was appropriate.
    Do or do not, there is no try. - Master Jedi Yoda
    He's Kermit on acid who happens to carry a big stick when pissed off. Big deal. - Apokalupsis
    Actually, didn't Frank Oz do Bert as well? We're cousins! - Withnail in reference to Bert and Yoda

  14. #14
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    Lightbulb Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending
    Cool it. GS, I think Happy Lady has a point. You need to be at least a little more respectful of her beliefs and those of others.
    YOU cool it! How have I been disrespectful of her beliefs(and those of others)? How much "respect" am I obligated to give and to WHICH belief systems? If nazi comes here with his belief that jews are scum do we owe him a degree of respect?

    You are making the same mistake Happy did in assuming you know what I am about and then talking down to me. Why is it that she can tear into me with all that BS and you say NOTHING but if I answer her you jump all over me? Be a bit more objective. i know it is hard because you are more familiar with Happy' but do TRY.

  15. #15
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Ok, so I haven't been paying much attention, the posts were losing substance fast. However, I what you and HL wrote in this thread and it had nothing of any real substance, besides hurling insults. BTW, I meant the cool it to be directed at the both of you, but it didn't come out that way. What you two need to do is stop jabbing each other and actually debate the topic (which wasn't happening either).
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

  16. #16
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Neverending: I agree with you 100%! I have more to say but not appropriate for this thread so I will start a new one about my thoughts on these matters.

  17. #17
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by GodlessSkept
    YOU cool it! How have I been disrespectful of her beliefs(and those of others)? How much "respect" am I obligated to give and to WHICH belief systems? If nazi comes here with his belief that jews are scum do we owe him a degree of respect?

    Equating Christianity to naziism and alleging Mother Teresea is an embezzler.....

    'nuff said.

  18. #18
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus
    Equating Christianity to naziism
    I think he was using an extreme example but not equating Christianity to Nazism.
    alleging Mother Teresea is an embezzler.....
    Well, I think that this is a valid point to follow. Was she?
    'nuff said.
    While I definitely don't agree with GS in the quote you gave, I do think that his Mother Teresa point should be followed. Id on't think enough has been said (that is rational at least).
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

  19. #19
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending
    I think he was using an extreme example but not equating Christianity to Nazism.
    Well, I think that this is a valid point to follow. Was she?
    While I definitely don't agree with GS in the quote you gave, I do think that his Mother Teresa point should be followed. Id on't think enough has been said (that is rational at least).
    OK then please start a new thread...


    "Mother Tersea....Saint or crook?"

    I only first mentioned MT as an example of what a True Christian is....

  20. #20
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    Re: Atheism vs. Theism

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus
    "Mother Tersea....Saint or crook?"
    As of now, I do not know. I have heard what GS is saying on the topic before, from more than just one source. I think it should be explored. When someone looks as if they have achieved the pinnacle of goodness, they are rarely scrutinized, so I think we should. As of yet, I have no position on the topic.
    I only first mentioned MT as an example of what a True Christian is....
    I know, and the thread went way off topic from there.
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

 

 
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