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Thread: Salvation

  1. #1
    offaithandfire
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    Salvation

    I was curious as to others peoples views on salvation. Do you believe that salvation can be lost? or in such case, were you never saved to begin with?

    I'm new here, if this is a topic all to used please discard it accordingly

  2. #2
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    Re: Salvation

    You don't need to be saved if you aren't in danger to begin with.

  3. #3
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by offaithandfire View Post
    I was curious as to others peoples views on salvation. Do you believe that salvation can be lost? or in such case, were you never saved to begin with?

    I'm new here, if this is a topic all to used please discard it accordingly
    I will ignore Mican333's comment...

    Well, salvation is the acceptance of Jesus as your personal savior...if you go from accepting to rejecting or denying him, then yes, you will lose your salvation.

    Jesus said, in no uncertain words;

    " If you deny me in front of man, I will deny you in front of the father"

    He does not add " unless you previously did not reject me" Jesus says what he says, and does not say what he does not say.

    Part of the reason I reject the notion of going to church, that is another subject.

  4. #4
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by offaithandfire View Post
    Do you believe that salvation can be lost?
    In the sense of a completely devoted and believing Christian being compelled to a position of atheism by certain life experiences that glaringingly contradict certain key claims associated with Christianity, absolutely yes. You may count Trendem and myself as examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by offaithandfire View Post
    or in such case, were you never saved to begin with?
    In the sense that you appear to be using it, I'd have to say 'no, I was never "saved" to begin with' because it doesn't appear that such a thing exists in the first place.

  5. #5
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    In the sense of a completely devoted and believing Christian being compelled to a position of atheism by certain life experiences that glaringingly contradict certain key claims associated with Christianity, absolutely yes. You may count Trendem and myself as examples.
    And me, and Wanna, and Harrison, and JM, and LP, and... Need I continue?





    Salvation is a concept that you can be saved from a horrible fate that you cannot prove exists.

    Is it possible to lose your salvation? Better question: Do you know if you ever had any salvation, and if you did, what was it from?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  6. #6
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    And me, and Wanna, and Harrison, and JM, and LP, and... Need I continue?
    There are always going to be examples of people that lose their faith, just like there are always going to be those that gain true faith.

    What irritates me is that people that reject their faith feel intellectually superior to those that do not. You cite a few that reject.....ok.....what is the actual point being made here?

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    Salvation is a concept that you can be saved from a horrible fate that you cannot prove exists.
    Proof is relative, you cannot prove that you exist..... I am absolutely certain in my religious views....every bit as certain as I walk the earth right now.

    This argument has been made countless times, most recently in the proof you exist thread, I will defer to that thread for further explanation.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    Is it possible to lose your salvation? Better question: Do you know if you ever had any salvation, and if you did, what was it from?
    That is more of a proof your religion is correct thread. If you are a person of faith, truly a person of faith, then this is a moot question my friend.

    Having faith does not equal having blind faith....blind faith does exist however.

  7. #7
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by princefigs View Post
    Proof is relative, you cannot prove that you exist.....
    Excuse me? Is it really your stance that you can't prove that you exist? Really? I want to make sure I understand your argument here... is you're epistemology really that bankrupt that you'd blurt out the equivalent of "well, I'm not so sure I exist, but I am sure that blah blah blah is true."

    If you can't prove your own existence, then how on Earth do you justify your claim that you can prove anything else?

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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Excuse me? Is it really your stance that you can't prove that you exist? Really?
    Go read the thread that I started titled " Prove you exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    I want to make sure I understand your argument here... is you're epistemology really that bankrupt that you'd blurt out the equivalent of "well, I'm not so sure I exist, but I am sure that blah blah blah is true."
    Go read the thread titled " Prove you exist"

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    If you can't prove your own existence, then how on Earth do you justify your claim that you can prove anything else?
    Go read...etc etc

    Here is a brief explanation, proof is relative....all proof has a common quality, a common premise in faith. you except that you exist on faith...you use logical things to support it, but how do we know logic really exist?

    Answer is we do not. We accept certain things and use those certain things to make life understandable to us. Fact is, no matter what, you cannot prove that anything you know, think, feel, see, taste, or touch is real.

    There is no absolute truth in the world, because there is always a possibility of you being wrong..

    500 years ago, it was a fact that the world was flat.

    Point being. One does not need absolute prove to believe in something with 100% conviction.

    Now, on to your next red herring rebuttal.....

  9. #9
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by princefigs View Post
    Here is a brief explanation, proof is relative....all proof has a common quality, a common premise in faith.
    Nope. You're wrong. Proof is based on evidence and evidence... good evidence... can be traced back to self-evidencing premises. A thing that's so simple that it evidences itself is far different from belief without evidence.

    Fact is, no matter what, you cannot prove that anything you know, think, feel, see, taste, or touch is real.
    The above statement applies to itself. So, according to you, you cannot prove that no matter what, you cannot prove that anything you know, think, feel, see, taste, or touch is real. Thus, your argument fails.

  10. #10
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    Re: Salvation

    If you 'lose' your salvation by denying or rejecting Jesus you go 2 hell, yes?

    Doesnt that seem harsh, you have to have faith in someone who is only in a book....
    Who was apparently around 2000 years ago. And your supposed to accept that person as your 'personal saviour'...

    Eternity in Hell, because you didnt choose to have blind faith, so now you have lost your salvation.

    What did you get salvation from in the first place?
    .::The Swindall::.

    "...In the beginning, man created god"

  11. #11
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by princefigs View Post
    Proof is relative, you cannot prove that you exist..... I am absolutely certain in my religious views....every bit as certain as I walk the earth right now.
    But while your own esoteric beliefs may convince you, they have no evidence to back them up. And there are those who hold beliefs that are very different from yours, likewise unevidenced, and are held with equal conviction.

    So the conviction that someone holds onto their beliefs is irrelevant as far as providing an argument goes. If there was one set of beliefs that its adherents held onto more strongly than others held different beliefs, it might provide evidence of the validity of that particular belief (but not proof). But as far as I can see Moonies believe what they believe as strongly as Christians believe what they believe. Since they both can't be right, at least some of the people who hold strong convictions have to be wrong.

    So how strongly one believes in the unevidenced is not relevant to a debate on its validity.

    Quote Originally Posted by princefigs View Post
    This argument has been made countless times, most recently in the proof you exist thread, I will defer to that thread for further explanation.
    Frankly, that thread is irrelevant. If you believe in objective reality enough to post on this website, then it can be assumed that you do believe in your own existence enough to consider making points about what you believe.

    After all, why argue for anything if you don't actually believe in it?

  12. #12
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by princefigs View Post
    There are always going to be examples of people that lose their faith, just like there are always going to be those that gain true faith.

    What irritates me is that people that reject their faith feel intellectually superior to those that do not. You cite a few that reject.....ok.....what is the actual point being made here?
    3-4 of those names started off as Christians on ODN.

    Atheist to Christian conversions? Oh for none.


    I'm not proving anything there, just noting something that I find humorous. And adding names to Dio's list.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  13. #13
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Nope. You're wrong.
    Just saying that I am wrong, does not make me wrong. Prove to me that I am based on the premise I gave you. You cannot. Many have tried, all have failed....just as you have failed, and will continue to fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    Proof is based on evidence and evidence... good evidence... can be traced back to self-evidencing premises. A thing that's so simple that it evidences itself is far different from belief without evidence.
    The base premise of any evidence or fact is rooted in assumptions that we accept to make life understandable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xanadu Moo...who said it prefectly

    Assumption 1: We know what "I" is.
    Assumption 2: We know what "exist" is.
    Assumption 3: We know what "thinking" is.
    Assumption 4: We know what consciousness is.
    Assumption 5: Human perception on this matter is completely accurate.
    Assumption 6: Things are as they appear.
    Assumption 7: Our application of logic is flawless.

    Something can only be proven if all the assumptions are first removed and all other possibilities rejected.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    The above statement applies to itself. So, according to you, you cannot prove that no matter what, you cannot prove that anything you know, think, feel, see, taste, or touch is real. Thus, your argument fails.
    The argument supports itself. You saying that it fails does not make it fail.

  14. #14
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    Re: Salvation

    @Princefigs

    It seems to me that you have two options:

    1) Admit that you are holding an "I'm right, you're wrong, why? because it just is." argument, or

    2) Admit that using the same argument for belief that you're putting out, it is equally valid for me to claim that we were all created by the great overlord Oulima who has a habit of punching himself in the face.

    Note that I'm not saying that you're wrong or that your belief is wrong or that you shouldn't believe whatever you believe. You can always choose option 2, of course.

    There is no absolute truth in the world, because there is always a possibility of you being wrong..
    Hmm... in that case, what if you are wrong in saying that there is no absolute truth in the world?

    And what about your God? Is that an absolute truth? If that's the case, are you not contradicting yourself? For first you claim that there is no absolute truth in the world, then you claim your God is an absolute truth.

  15. #15
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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by FDEL View Post
    Hmm... in that case, what if you are wrong in saying that there is no absolute truth in the world?
    I already answered this. I said several times that if absolute truth exist, we would not be capable of seeing it. Only a being ( God ) that does not rely on cognitive and logic assumptions would have that ability.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDEL View Post
    And what about your God? Is that an absolute truth? If that's the case, are you not contradicting yourself? For first you claim that there is no absolute truth in the world, then you claim your God is an absolute truth.
    I have answered this several times as well.....I believe in God....I believe I exist...I believe that everything I see, hear, feel, taste, and touch is real.

    Is it an absolute fact that I am right...no...of course not...that would be a Zhavric fallacy.

  16. #16
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    Re: Salvation

    In other words, you can never claim that God is true, you can only believe so, just like you can never claim that self-pwning overlord Oulima is true, you can only believe so.

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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by FDEL View Post
    In other words, you can never claim that God is true, you can only believe so, just like you can never claim that self-pwning overlord Oulima is true, you can only believe so.
    I have repeatedly said that nothing can be proven by the methods we use.

    God certainly cannot be proven by logical or cognitive methods.

  18. #18
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    Re: Salvation

    I have repeatedly said that nothing can be proven by the methods we use.

    God certainly cannot be proven by logical or cognitive methods.
    I agree with you. If nothing can be proven by the methods we use, then the self-pwning overlord Oulima certainly cannot be proven by logical or cognitive methods, just like God.

    In other words, because you can't prove God, you can never claim that God is true, you can only believe so, just like you can never claim that self-pwning overlord Oulima is true, you can only believe so.

    Am I right?

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    Re: Salvation

    Quote Originally Posted by FDEL View Post
    I agree with you. If nothing can be proven by the methods we use, then the self-pwning overlord Oulima certainly cannot be proven by logical or cognitive methods, just like God.

    In other words, because you can't prove God, you can never claim that God is true, you can only believe so, just like you can never claim that self-pwning overlord Oulima is true, you can only believe so.

    Am I right?
    I believe that you are trying to connect the word " belief " with the word " false "

    Everything that we know...think we know....believe we know....hope we know....etc etc etc ...is ROOTED in faith.

    You KNOW you exist....but prove it....

    In reality, you believe that you exist, you cannot prove it beyond doubt...but you believe it with such a conviction that it IS TRUE to you.

    That is how I feel towards God.

  20. #20
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    Re: Salvation

    I believe that you are trying to connect the word " belief " with the word " false "
    Nope.

    I never claimed that, neither did I ever intend to do such a thing.

    In reality, you believe that you exist, you cannot prove it beyond doubt...but you believe it with such a conviction that it IS TRUE to you.

    That is how I feel towards God.
    There exist a person named James who believes in the self-pwning overlord Oulima in just the same way as the way you believe in God, that is, you can't prove it, but you believe it with such a conviction that it IS TRUE to you.

    There exists a child named Bobby who believes in santa claus in the same way as the way you believe in God, that is, you can't prove it, but you believe it with such a conviction that it IS TRUE to you.

    Note that I'm not saying your belief is false.

    Note that I'm not saying James's belief is false, and I'm also not saying Bobby's belief is false.

    I'm just saying that you are in the same category as James or Bobby, that's all.

    Admit or refute.

 

 
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