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  1. #241
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Ummm where exactly did I say that a dog who humps a human's leg THINKS that the human is another dog?


    I do not recall claiming that an animal has to be a dog inorder to be a member of the pack.. Will you please point out where I stated that?


    I honestly do not know where you got that a member of a dogs pack HAS to be another dog..
    So in other words we can agree that there's no evidence that a dog who humps a human leg is mistaking the human for another dog.

    Is there any evidence that a dog who submits itself sexually to another dog is acting (thinking) in any way differently than a dog who submits itself sexually to a human?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  2. #242
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    So in other words we can agree that there's no evidence that a dog who humps a human leg is mistaking the human for another dog.
    Correct.. Just as what was stated in the information I have posted states that when a dog humps a humans leg it is communicating that they (the dog) think they dominate you (the human)..

    Is there any evidence that a dog who submits itself sexually to another dog is acting (thinking) in any way differently than a dog who submits itself sexually to a human?
    Now since we can not 100% understand dog language, there is no way for us to be 100% sure that the dog IS submitting themselves sexually to the human. I believe that animals can understand other animals in their species just as humans can understand humans..
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
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  3. #243
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Correct.. Just as what was stated in the information I have posted states that when a dog humps a humans leg it is communicating that they (the dog) think they dominate you (the human)..
    Ok.

    Now since we can not 100% understand dog language, there is no way for us to be 100% sure that the dog IS submitting themselves sexually to the human. I believe that animals can understand other animals in their species just as humans can understand humans..
    What do you mean we can't know if the dog is submitting itself? If the dog resists you, it's obviously refusing to submit itself. If it doesn't resist you, that's submission. Don't you agree? If not, why?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  4. #244
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    What do you mean we can't know if the dog is submitting itself? If the dog resists you, it's obviously refusing to submit itself. If it doesn't resist you, that's submission. Don't you agree? If not, why?
    Let me see if I can explain this like it needs to be lol..

    Just because a dog submits itself does not mean that the dog WANTS or is WILLING for whatever to be done to the dog.. Dogs submit themselves to the more dominate one. We have no way of knowing that when the dog just sits there and takes it, that the dog is submitting itself willingly as in wants it. The dog may simply feel that the person is the more dominate of the two.. But since we can not ask the dog and get a more understanding answer from the dog, we do not know 100% that the dog actually wants what is being done to it..

    Let me ask you this..

    If a man makes a woman feel the man is the dominate one and she submits to the man because he is the dominate one, would that be the same as her submitting because she wants to? Or would it be because she feels she has to?
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
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  5. #245
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Let me see if I can explain this like it needs to be lol..

    Just because a dog submits itself does not mean that the dog WANTS or is WILLING for whatever to be done to the dog.. Dogs submit themselves to the more dominate one. We have no way of knowing that when the dog just sits there and takes it, that the dog is submitting itself willingly as in wants it. The dog may simply feel that the person is the more dominate of the two.. But since we can not ask the dog and get a more understanding answer from the dog, we do not know 100% that the dog actually wants what is being done to it..
    Ok. So in other words we can't possibly know what the dog really wants (or "wants").

    It follows then that we can't possibly know if the dog really wants to be brushed (and they resist) or bathed (and they resist) or taken out for a walk (they don't resist). And yet we do all those things.

    Since we can't know if the dog "wants" to have any of those things done, are we allowed (morally justified) to do any of them to the dog?

    And if the answer (for any of those) is "yes" then would you say that we shouldn't have sex with the dog? If you say so, why?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  6. #246
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Ok. So in other words we can't possibly know what the dog really wants (or "wants").

    It follows then that we can't possibly know if the dog really wants to be brushed (and they resist) or bathed (and they resist) or taken out for a walk (they don't resist). And yet we do all those things.

    Since we can't know if the dog "wants" to have any of those things done, are we allowed (morally justified) to do any of them to the dog?

    And if the answer (for any of those) is "yes" then would you say that we shouldn't have sex with the dog? If you say so, why?
    Personally I feel that a dog or any animal that is kept as a pet is a person's property. The person should be allowed to do what they want with their property.

    The main issue I had with this entire debate tonight was Wild Wolf's argument that
    1) Animals can consent
    2) It is very possible to know when a pet wants to have sex with a human
    3) The ways he described as the pet 'consenting' to sex.


    Now what I think about 1, 2, and 3..
    1) Animals can not consent now more then a 5 yr old child can consent. However consent is not an issue since we do not get consent to kill animals for a sport.

    2) Yes we may be able to understand some of how a pet works as in telling if the pet is happy to see you and what not, but we do not know for sure if the pet is submitting to sex simply because it wants to or because they feel you are the alpha.

    3) The ways that was presented as animals consenting goes back to number 2. A dog wagging it's tail can have several different meanings behind it. Saying a dog is happy when he wags is tail is not completely true.. The dog could wag his tail if he had anxiety for example... Saying a dog makes one sign does not always mean the most common reason for the dog to.. say wag is tail.. is what the dog actually means..

    Now the reasons I am against this and the reasons I could care less are:

    1) You do not receive consent from an pet just as you can not receive consent from a 5 yr old child..

    2) A human can not know for sure what is going on inside the dogs head. You can not know for sure is the dog actually wants what is being done to him or if he is just submitting because you are his master..

    3) There can be great harm in having intercourse with animals to both the human and the animal..

    now for the reasons I could care less...

    1) A pet is your property. You can destroy a couch or a plant that belongs to you.

    2) You do not need consent to kill a wild animal for sport so what makes this any more of a crime or wrong then killing a wild animal for fun?
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
    "Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

  7. #247
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Personally I feel that a dog or any animal that is kept as a pet is a person's property. The person should be allowed to do what they want with their property.

    The main issue I had with this entire debate tonight was Wild Wolf's argument that
    1) Animals can consent
    2) It is very possible to know when a pet wants to have sex with a human
    3) The ways he described as the pet 'consenting' to sex.


    Now what I think about 1, 2, and 3..
    1) Animals can not consent now more then a 5 yr old child can consent. However consent is not an issue since we do not get consent to kill animals for a sport.

    2) Yes we may be able to understand some of how a pet works as in telling if the pet is happy to see you and what not, but we do not know for sure if the pet is submitting to sex simply because it wants to or because they feel you are the alpha.

    3) The ways that was presented as animals consenting goes back to number 2. A dog wagging it's tail can have several different meanings behind it. Saying a dog is happy when he wags is tail is not completely true.. The dog could wag his tail if he had anxiety for example... Saying a dog makes one sign does not always mean the most common reason for the dog to.. say wag is tail.. is what the dog actually means..

    Now the reasons I am against this and the reasons I could care less are:

    1) You do not receive consent from an pet just as you can not receive consent from a 5 yr old child..

    2) A human can not know for sure what is going on inside the dogs head. You can not know for sure is the dog actually wants what is being done to him or if he is just submitting because you are his master..

    3) There can be great harm in having intercourse with animals to both the human and the animal..

    now for the reasons I could care less...

    1) A pet is your property. You can destroy a couch or a plant that belongs to you.

    2) You do not need consent to kill a wild animal for sport so what makes this any more of a crime or wrong then killing a wild animal for fun?
    Ok. So in other words you disagree that an animal can consent to sex but at the same time you don't believe that this lack of consent matters as far as the issue of whether it's immoral to have sex with an animal or not goes. Is that a fair summary?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  8. #248
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Ok. So in other words you disagree that an animal can consent to sex but at the same time you don't believe that this lack of consent matters as far as the issue of whether it's immoral to have sex with an animal or not goes. Is that a fair summary?
    Pretty much.. Now to explain my reasoning behind that is like I said before. We force pets to do different things without their consent every day..

    Take a bird for instance. We force birds to live in cages their entire life for OUR pleasure. Not theirs.. If you take the cage outside and open the cage, the bird will fly away and very seldom if at all would return to the cage. So with that happening (the bird not returning) shows that the bird is not consenting to live in a cage.

    Now, let's go a tad further with this. We (humans) raise animals (cows, chickens) only to be killed for our pleasure of eating meat. We do not have the animals consent to raise them in at times not so healthy environment for both the animal and the person raising the animal only to kill them when they get big enough to eat.

    Let's go a little further.. We (again humans) set 'traps' for wild animals. We set 'traps' to catch wild animals such as bear traps. A lot of these traps clamp down of the bears legs harming the bear causing pain. We plant green patches and put out corn to lure deer into the area so we can kill them for our pleasure for sport. A lot of time the people shooting the deer does not even eat the deer. After we kill a nice buck, we do not just cut him up for food but we have to go as far as having his head mounted.. Again for our pleasure.. Without their consent....

    So why should we have to have a pet's consent for sex? Pet's are not human and are not on the same level as humans. If this was so, then pet's would not be treated just as pets but more as humans. Pet's would not have food thrown out in the yard for them to eat off the ground for instance.. Some pet's would not have to sleep outside in the cold..

    So imo, inorder to say it is morally wrong, consent can not be used..
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
    "Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

  9. #249
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Pretty much.. Now to explain my reasoning behind that is like I said before. We force pets to do different things without their consent every day..

    Take a bird for instance. We force birds to live in cages their entire life for OUR pleasure. Not theirs.. If you take the cage outside and open the cage, the bird will fly away and very seldom if at all would return to the cage. So with that happening (the bird not returning) shows that the bird is not consenting to live in a cage.

    Now, let's go a tad further with this. We (humans) raise animals (cows, chickens) only to be killed for our pleasure of eating meat. We do not have the animals consent to raise them in at times not so healthy environment for both the animal and the person raising the animal only to kill them when they get big enough to eat.

    Let's go a little further.. We (again humans) set 'traps' for wild animals. We set 'traps' to catch wild animals such as bear traps. A lot of these traps clamp down of the bears legs harming the bear causing pain. We plant green patches and put out corn to lure deer into the area so we can kill them for our pleasure for sport. A lot of time the people shooting the deer does not even eat the deer. After we kill a nice buck, we do not just cut him up for food but we have to go as far as having his head mounted.. Again for our pleasure.. Without their consent....

    So why should we have to have a pet's consent for sex? Pet's are not human and are not on the same level as humans. If this was so, then pet's would not be treated just as pets but more as humans. Pet's would not have food thrown out in the yard for them to eat off the ground for instance.. Some pet's would not have to sleep outside in the cold..

    So imo, inorder to say it is morally wrong, consent can not be used..
    Ok, so we're on the same page.

    Do you believe then that there's anything morally wrong with having sexual contact with animals?
    "I am against religion because it teaches us to be satisfied with not understanding the world" - Richard Dawkins

    "If you could rationalize with Religious people there would be no more Religious people" -Gregory House

  10. #250
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Allocutus View Post
    Ok, so we're on the same page.

    Do you believe then that there's anything morally wrong with having sexual contact with animals?
    Well yes and no...

    Yes, because we as humans are superior to animals. Even with us being superior we do not know how certain acts effect animals. We may be able to read some of their expressions but we do not know for a fact the way we are reading them is actually what is going on.

    Take the example of a dog wagging it's tail.. Most times that can mean the dog is happy. But other times dogs will wag their tail when they are experiencing anxiety. The dog may be expressing the exact same expressions with only one miner expression being different. If we do not notice this one expression being different, it will be easy for us to misinterpret the dogs true feeling.

    Having sex with animals is very likely to cause harm to the animal either physically or mentally/emotionally... We have no way of knowing if the sexual act is harming the animal mentally or emotionally.

    With the fact that dogs will 'obey' their alpha, the dogs could go along with the act simply because it feels like it HAS to since you are the alpha..

    Now, the only reason I would say no... Is because pets are basically property. Although I would 'hope' someone would not mistreat their property, it is still THEIR property..

    But then that begs the question of if someone should be allowed to do whatever to their property. But then that comes down to if doing whatever to said property will cheat others out of something. For instance.. A house that is paid for is someone's property. The owner of the property can not start a fire purposely to burn the house down just to receive ins money...
    If a man has sex with a pet (his property) and causes harm to the pet, will the owner then be able to afford medical assistance for the pet or will the owner drop the pet off for the vet to find and end up euthanize or treat the pet then put the pet in foster care then up for adoption, all of which will be paid for by someone other then the original owner, which goes back to the house example.

    If that is not understandable just let me know and I will try to rephrase
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
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  11. #251
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Can you prove your dog is happy after it? Just because it wags its tail doesn't mean a thing.
    You would have to be here in person and watch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    Proof? Or this is this yet another assumption?
    Theres no big study about it (I guess people don't care) but is more accepted by people that they do fell pleasure than they don't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    How about humans? What about a nice human person to have sex with, to share your bed with? Hmm? Whats wrong with people? You know, people like yourself?
    Am 45% hetero 45% zoo 10% could be gay. In private am a zoo, till I find a girl that is a zoo too, sadly girls are rare to show Paraphilias compared to men.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    You dont even know what consent is so you cant very well claim you care about the animal enough to get consent.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    I have never heard of a dog becoming ill from lack of sex.
    Use your logic, that is a plausible situation that could happen.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    I just answer your "theist" question with another question.



    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    I have no idea what you are talking about here.
    Am talking that even if a dog consent to have sex, if he does not like the proses of sex, he will complain and show that hes not consenting anymore and leave. (penis with barbwire will be rejected).



    Quote Originally Posted by Tarja View Post
    How can you say without a doubt that you are not raping your dog right now?
    Not going answer this.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    I disagree.....Lack of resistance, or SUBMITTING does not necessarily mean that the animal WANTS to have sex with you. Your animals probably SUBMIT to sex with you because you are the alpha (dominant) over them, and not because they actually desire the sex. They simply want to please you, so they do what you want.
    And when they are on the giving side? What if they are not the receiving side? They are the ones taking the initiative, they are the alpha the human is the "bitch".



    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    Scratching a dog's stomach does not have the same risks of harm as having sex with him/her.
    Seems you agree that non harmful sex with an animal is ok since we are giving them pleasure.



    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    How do you know with certainty that your dog is not suffering psychological or mental harm when he/she is having sex with you?
    If they don't show (harmful) side effects or changes in behavior that are not healthy, then theres no point in knowing, you could assume any action will give to any animal mental problems and that in no way any human or god can find proof that mental harm is there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    A male or female dog's sexual "urges", and their unrelieved stress due to said "urges" can be easily avoided simply by neutering or spaying the animal at an early age.
    Also bring health problems, and spaying and neutering is not a reasonable option for many people.

    "Yes, neutering prior to the beginning of estrus does reduce risk for mammary cancer in females, but it also significantly increases risk for urinary incontinence in bitches which predisposes these bitches to diethylstilbestrol (DES) dependency (Stocklin-Gautschi et al., J. Reprod. Fertile. Suppl. 57:233-6, 2001 and many other references)--in some instances, DES is not effective at controlling incontinence and will force some owners to elect euthanasia. Though with lesser risk compared to females, early neutering also increases risk of urethral sphincter incontinence in males (A. Aaron et al., Vet Rec. 139:542-6, 1996.)

    With regard to cancer, spayed females have a 4 times greater risk for developing cardiac hemangiosarcomas (vascular tumors) compared to intact females (neutered males also show a significant increase in risk for these tumors compared to intact males) (Ware and Hysper, J. Vet. Intern. Med. 13:95-103, 1999.). Additionally, both neutered males and females have a 2-fold greater risk for developing bone tumors (osteosarcoma) compared to intact males and females (Ru et al., Vet J. 156:31-9, 1998.).

    Some evidence suggests that early neutering may also predispose to endocrine disorders later in life (Panciera DL. J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc., 204:761-7 1994.). Furthermore, there is also an indication that early neutering (because absence of sex hormones delays maturation of osteoclasts and thus results in delayed closing of the growth plates in the long-bones) may predispose to increased risk for various orthopedic disorders (such as cruciate ligament disease as I had mentioned in a previous post). Also, some evidence suggests that there is a correlation between increased time for growth plate closure and incidence of HD in Labs (Todhunter et al. J. Am. Vet Assoc., 1997)." From: http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...0120606AAxpWyN


    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    Please support.
    Well with dogs, medium reeds and larger have bigger and longer dicks than humans, from that point any medium size female in heat can take any male human. Now when it comes to girls, yes a large dog could get hurt penetrating a female, but how often that happen compared to men braking their penis? I think not to often.


    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    An animal could be experiencing psychological or emotional distress while you are having sex with him/her, without demonstrating any outward physical signs of this distress, just as a human being could be suffering psychologically, without demonstrating any outward physical signs to others. Unless you can read a dog's mind, you have no idea whether or not they suffer mentally or emotionally while they are having sex with you.
    Am not going to answer since the only available response would be "I read animals minds"

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    Challenge to support a claim. I must demand that you either support or retract this statement immediately.
    Ok i retract I was very vague with that comeback. I Will just add that animals can heal faster his mental or emotional problems than humans, and not all human sex with an animal is likely to cause mental or emotional problems. I will ask in a 660000 member zooforum to see if anyone has hear of pet suffering from having consented non harmful sex.

    ---------- Post added at 11:52 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:10 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    My dog eats other dogs poop. My dog likes to eat pens and pencils.
    bringing that up helps nothing to the thread. You really don't needed t quote that or comment on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    That woman will NOT be able to know how to read other men or women 100%
    In humans sex with humans you don't need 100% consent and understanding, I understand my dog enough to claim am not raping him. Am not a hypocrite, do I sound like one?

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    How do you know he did not THINK he had the chickens consent? How do you know that he knew he would harm the chicken?
    Chickens have been dieing for some time, he was probably killing 1 or more per day. He was kinda sick (mentally) consent wont have matter for him.



    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    You're not that well informed on animals mating/humping.. Mating for pleasure is not true for dogs,
    I already knew that. Yes they have sex to mate on instinct, but with humans I would say is different, we are pleasuring them truth sex and they will have sex with us to feel pleasure.

    Some people actually are zoo strict with dolphins, so is ok to you? Dolphins can consent and have sex for pleasure too.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Read the information above.. Dogs do NOT have sex for pleasure..
    I don't agree, pleasure will make them to have sex on a human relationship.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    If we were here to have sex with animals then when a human male ejaculates in a canine female then that female would be able to get pregnant if she was not sterile.. Just as if a canine male ejaculates in a human female that human female would be able to reproduce with that canine..
    I was answering to the "theist" question of the last poster with the opposite question, you could have read why I said that. No need to quote or respond to this from your side.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    I have shown that dogs do NOT have sex for pleasure.. When canines have intercourse with other canines it is for one purpose only.. and pleasure is not it..
    Pleasure is a side effect during sex, and dogs can do stuff just to get pleasure, sex with a human is one of them. (we could attach stuff to a dog brain and measure happiness (dopamine) before he know he will have sex, after he knows he will have sex and during sex and after it, that will prove you wrong. Any scientist in here wants to go for that experiment?




    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    You have still not shown the difference between a male dog humping for sexual act and humping for dominance.
    Easy to know you just masturbate, if he does not hump you more during the day, means his sex urge was relieved and he does not have that need anymore for now. (in no way you show him you where inferior) Dog behavior in a human society is different from a pack of dogs

    For dominance you should pleasure him manually the first time he humps, after that if he keeps humping you during the day and not get sexually aroused even if you try again to masturbate him, thats dominance humping. (in no way you show him you where inferior yet he keeps trying to be superior)


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    What exactly are these hints?
    -he tries to hump me out of the blue, this happens in the backyard if I don't pleasure him for 2 weeks or 3 week ad is very hard to make him stop. (no he does not hump me always not even if I am in 4 legs naked acting like a dog)

    -In the house: If hes not to eager he gets near my leg and bump into it watch me with puppy eyes and scratch me with the paw-refusal from me to please him result in him losing interest and leaving (if is near food time I assume he wants to eat, if hes hard I take that as he wants sex), if he really wants sex he will try to hump my leg, normally I don't allow that in the house since theres people in there that does not know my sexual orientation (visits, relatives) so If I refuse and take him outside, lock door, he will do a whining asking for the expected sex that he normally gets from doing that signal.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_CozZAnwNEM <-- Whine like that, wow the sound made me a bit horny.

    He does the same whining, when am taking him for a walk but for some reason I have to do something first and can't walk him immediately, he start to whine around 5 minutes after he see am not going out but he has all the equipment on. (he knew he was going out but hes still inside asking to get out, also scratching the door)

    Those 2 are the only times my current dog whines.

    Bitches, just flashes the hinds and moves the tail to a side when they are in heat.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    How do you determine which is the reason?
    Analysis of the situation, the dog behavior, my behavior.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    So are you saying here that a dog will only give their consent after the human male is already attempting to have intercourse with the dog?
    Humans may say no before or during sex. Dogs may say no before or during sex. So the answer to you is NO am not trying to say that..


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    I was just doing some reading and came across this.. Since Wild Wolf considers himself a zoophile..

    Although many medical terms have been applied to a fixation on sex with animals, those who engage in this kind of sex prefer to be known as "zoophiles," a word borrowed, ironically, from the animal protection community. The zoophile's worldview is similar to the rapist's and child sexual abuser's. They all view the sex they have with their victims as consensual, and they believe it benefits their sexual "partners" as well as themselves.
    The bolded underlined part is very interesting...

    Relationships of unequal power cannot be consensual. In human-animal relationships, the human being has control of many if not all of the aspects of an animals' well being.
    http://www.pet-abuse.com/pages/anima...bestiality.php
    While moral and clinical descriptions of bestiality differ, Pet-Abuse.Com takes the position that bestiality is sexual assault of an animal and is always a crime. To much biased opinion? Even if you show solid proof that they are wrong they wont change their minds, just like Theist people blindly believe in god, even if you prove them that theres no proof that say God exist.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Now let me ask you this.. Do you see anything wrong with a 50 yr old human man asking verbally a 10 yr old human girl if she will have sex with him and she says yes? If so why? if not, why?
    I don't want to go off topic, after am done with zoo threads, maybe I will see look for threads about pedophilia.

    ---------- Post added October 11th, 2009 at 12:17 AM ---------- Previous post was October 10th, 2009 at 11:52 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Personally I feel that a dog or any animal that is kept as a pet is a person's property. The person should be allowed to do what they want with their property.............
    About that post in general:

    -I don't see 5 year olds knowing what is sex or asking for it in any way. (bad example?) Dogs are sexually mature a 5 year old is not, Dogs are probably smarter socially than a 5 year old. They are as smart (intelligence) as 3 year old. I think you wrong with the 5year old statement.

    -If you add up tail waging and all the other sings you can be almost right most of the time, on mute human relationship is the same, nobody knows 100% what the other wants, still mute humans ends having sex with mute humans.

    -Theres plenty well documented guides on "how to have sex with (add animal here)" So you don't hurt yourself, hurt the animal.


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    1) A pet is your property. You can destroy a couch or a plant that belongs to you.

    2) You do not need consent to kill a wild animal for sport so what makes this any more of a crime or wrong then killing a wild animal for fun?
    I seriously think that people should respect living things. hurting for fun or for no reason its just bad.
    Last edited by Wild Wolf; October 11th, 2009 at 12:36 AM.
    -Proud to be a zoosexual. ^_^

  12. #252
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf View Post
    You would have to be here in person and watch.
    If that is the only way to find out, then that one's thing I will never find out.
    Not going answer this.
    Why not?
    If they don't show (harmful) side effects or changes in behavior that are not healthy, then theres no point in knowing, you could assume any action will give to any animal mental problems and that in no way any human or god can find proof that mental harm is there.
    If a child is raped but hides their emotions, is that pointless?


    Am not going to answer since the only available response would be "I read animals minds"
    Basically because you can not support your argument there.

    Ok i retract I was very vague with that comeback. I Will just add that animals can heal faster his mental or emotional problems than humans, and not all human sex with an animal is likely to cause mental or emotional problems. I will ask in a 660000 member zooforum to see if anyone has hear of pet suffering from having consented non harmful sex.
    It does not matter how fast a animal can heal. The point is you possibly caused the that harm in the first place.

    bringing that up helps nothing to the thread. You really don't needed t quote that or comment on it.
    Yes it does.. Go back and read what that comment was replied to.

    In humans sex with humans you don't need 100% consent and understanding, I understand my dog enough to claim am not raping him. Am not a hypocrite, do I sound like one?
    Uhh why do you not need 100% consent from another human?
    Chickens have been dieing for some time, he was probably killing 1 or more per day. He was kinda sick (mentally) consent wont have matter for him.
    How was he sick mentally? Support or retract..


    I already knew that. Yes they have sex to mate on instinct, but with humans I would say is different, we are pleasuring them truth sex and they will have sex with us to feel pleasure.
    Support or retract

    Some people actually are zoo strict with dolphins, so is ok to you? Dolphins can consent and have sex for pleasure too.
    Support or retract
    I don't agree, pleasure will make them to have sex on a human relationship.
    I do not care if you agree or not. Try supporting with logic your claim there.

    I was answering to the "theist" question of the last poster with the opposite question, you could have read why I said that. No need to quote or respond to this from your side.
    I'm trying to make a point there. Please answer the question.


    Pleasure is a side effect during sex, and dogs can do stuff just to get pleasure, sex with a human is one of them. (we could attach stuff to a dog brain and measure happiness (dopamine) before he know he will have sex, after he knows he will have sex and during sex and after it, that will prove you wrong. Any scientist in here wants to go for that experiment?
    Once again.. I never stated that pleasure is not giving during sex. I said that dogs do not have sex for pleasure. As in, dogs do not say "ohh I enjoy sex, it feels sooooooo good, I want to have that pleasure now, so I will go screw whatever I can to give me that pleasure"

    Easy to know you just masturbate, if he does not hump you more during the day, means his sex urge was relieved and he does not have that need anymore for now. (in no way you show him you where inferior) Dog behavior in a human society is different from a pack of dogs
    Support or retract dog behavior is different with humans then in packs.

    For dominance you should pleasure him manually the first time he humps, after that if he keeps humping you during the day and not get sexually aroused even if you try again to masturbate him, thats dominance humping. (in no way you show him you where inferior yet he keeps trying to be superior)
    Not knowing if he wants to be masturbated and you touch him to masturbate him would be considered molestation.

    -he tries to hump me out of the blue, this happens in the backyard if I don't pleasure him for 2 weeks or 3 week ad is very hard to make him stop. (no he does not hump me always not even if I am in 4 legs naked acting like a dog)
    Well if he wanted sex for pleasure, ,then he would want it more often. Just coming up to you out of the blue and starts humping you does indicate that that wants sex.

    -In the house: If hes not to eager he gets near my leg and bump into it watch me with puppy eyes and scratch me with the paw-refusal from me to please him result in him losing interest and leaving (if is near food time I assume he wants to eat, if hes hard I take that as he wants sex), if he really wants sex he will try to hump my leg, normally I don't allow that in the house since theres people in there that does not know my sexual orientation (visits, relatives) so If I refuse and take him outside, lock door, he will do a whining asking for the expected sex that he normally gets from doing that signal.
    Whining does not mean he wants sex.


    Bitches, just flashes the hinds and moves the tail to a side when they are in heat.
    So if a woman wears a bikini and walks in front of you flaunting her body does that necessarly mean she wants sex?


    Analysis of the situation, the dog behavior, my behavior.
    Still have not supported that you are correct in reading the dogs behavior.

    Humans may say no before or during sex. Dogs may say no before or during sex. So the answer to you is NO am not trying to say that..
    How does a dog 'say' yes or no?

    I don't want to go off topic, after am done with zoo threads, maybe I will see look for threads about pedophilia.
    Please answer the question. I have a point here..


    -I don't see 5 year olds knowing what is sex or asking for it in any way. (bad example?) Dogs are sexually mature a 5 year old is not, Dogs are probably smarter socially than a 5 year old. They are as smart (intelligence) as 3 year old. I think you wrong with the 5year old statement.
    ok, well replace the 5 yr old with a 13 yr old.

    -If you add up tail waging and all the other sings you can be almost right most of the time, on mute human relationship is the same, nobody knows 100% what the other wants, still mute humans ends having sex with mute humans.
    You have still not shown that it is sex they actually want...
    I seriously think that people should respect living things. hurting for fun or for no reason its just bad.
    But yet it is ok if you possibly hurt a animal mentally/emotionally because they 'get over it' fast..
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
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  13. #253
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf
    And when they are on the giving side??... They are the ones taking the initiative, they are the alpha the human is the "bitch".
    Not really.

    You could easily condition a male dog to mount a human being by rewarding him with food or praise when he performs that task.

    A dog who has been purposefully trained to have sex with a human is not "taking the initiative", nor is he the "alpha".

    In fact, quite the opposite is true--he is doing it to please YOU, because you are the alpha, and he knows that's what YOU want.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf
    Seems you agree that non harmful sex with an animal is ok since we are giving them pleasure.
    Because non-human animals are non-verbal, there is no possible way to determine with certainty that emotional or mental harm IS NOT being done to an animal when a human being has sex with them.

    Therefore, ALL human/animal sexual encounters could possibly be causing harm to the animal involved, and are therefore not "ok".


    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf
    Also bring health problems, and spaying and neutering is not a reasonable option for many people.
    Okay, let's look at the health risks of neutering/spaying, taken from your source:

    --Urinary incontinence in males and females.
    --Hemangiosarcomas in males and females
    --Osteosarcomas in males and females
    --Endocrine system disorders
    --Orthopedic disorders


    On the flip side, let's look at the health risks of NOT spaying/neutering your dog.:

    MALES

    * Testicular cancer
    * Benign prostatic hyperplasia
    * Acute and chronic prostatis, prostatic abscess
    * Perianal gland adenomas
    * Orchitis (infection of the testicles)
    * Venereal tumors
    * Perineal hernia (abdominal organs bulging out of rectum)
    * Inguinal hernia with potential organ strangulation

    FEMALES

    * Breast cancer
    * Cystic endometrial hyperplasia and pyometra
    * False pregnancies
    * Mastitis (can occur during false pregnancy)
    * Transmissible venereal sarcoma
    * Ovarian and uterine tumors
    * Cystic ovaries and hyperestrogenism
    * Chronic endometritis
    * Vaginal hyperplasia and prolapse
    * Uterine torsion or uterine prolapse

    http://warrentonkc.tripod.com/spayneut.htm

    It looks as if NOT spaying or neutering your dog has a lot more health risks than spaying or neutering.

    Add to that list behavioral problems that can occur when you don't spay or neuter your dog:

    Intact male and female dogs are far more likely to be aggressive towards humans and other dogs, than those who are spayed/neutered.
    In fact, intact male dogs are at increased risk for attacking human beings, especially children.

    Intact male dogs also have a tendency to "mark their territory" with urine, including their territory inside the owner's home.
    They are also far more likely to escape from home when they detect the scent of a female dog in heat, increasing their risk of injury or death from being struck by vehicles.

    http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1570

    In summary, it is far more risky to leave a dog intact, than it is to spay or neuter.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf
    spaying and neutering is not a reasonable option for many people
    Please explain..I don't understand exactly what you mean by this statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf
    any medium size female in heat can take any male human.
    I don't think so.

    I am a veterinary technician, and I have seen SEVERAL cases where human males had tried to penetrate the vaginas of medium sized female dogs.(about 40-50 pounds).
    In 2 of those cases the animals were severely injured, and in 1 case the dog was so damaged that she had to be euthanized.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf
    Ok i retract I was very vague with that comeback.
    Thank you, I appreciate it.

    I Will just add that animals can heal faster his mental or emotional problems than humans,
    Support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf
    and not all human sex with an animal is likely to cause mental or emotional problems.
    Support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wild Wolf
    I don't see 5 year olds knowing what is sex or asking for it in any way. (bad example?) Dogs are sexually mature a 5 year old is not, Dogs are probably smarter socially than a 5 year old. They are as smart (intelligence) as 3 year old. I think you wrong with the 5year old statement.
    Well....What about a severely retarded, sexually mature adult human with the mental capacity of a 5 year old?

    Would it be okay for you (a normal, human adult) to have sex with this retarded adult, even if the retarded person indicated that he would allow you to do so?
    Last edited by Scarlett44; October 11th, 2009 at 03:20 PM.
    "As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".

  14. #254
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    I quit and concede to all of you, I can't or feel like supporting anymore, its just pointless, most of the information is empirical and can't be used to support. Also the post have got to big for me to have the time to support every single little statement. Its to much work.

    I will still roam this site and post here and there with small comments and only if I can support them.
    Bye bye.
    -Proud to be a zoosexual. ^_^

  15. #255
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    Not really.

    You could easily condition a male dog to mount a human being by rewarding him with food or praise when he performs that task.

    A dog who has been purposefully trained to have sex with a human is not "taking the initiative", nor is he the "alpha".
    "Could" is a subjective, and assumptive term in this context. We "could" be hit by a nuclear bomb tomorrow, but it's unlikely.

    In fact, quite the opposite is true--he is doing it to please YOU, because you are the alpha, and he knows that's what YOU want.
    And even if that's true, the problem there is what exactly?

    Because non-human animals are non-verbal, there is no possible way to determine with certainty that emotional or mental harm IS NOT being done to an animal when a human being has sex with them.
    Conversely, there's no way of knowing there IS mental or emotional harm when the dog shows absolutely no outward signs. Dogs pretty well show such things usually with destructive behavior and chewing, even aggressiveness.

    Therefore, ALL human/animal sexual encounters could possibly be causing harm to the animal involved, and are therefore not "ok".
    "could possibly" doesn't count, you "could possibly" get cancer from drinking the water, but that doesn't count either because there's no PROOF.

    Okay, let's look at the health risks of neutering/spaying, taken from your source:

    --Urinary incontinence in males and females.
    --Hemangiosarcomas in males and females
    --Osteosarcomas in males and females
    --Endocrine system disorders
    --Orthopedic disorders
    Adding:

    Interestingly, leg-lifting by males does not require testosterone in the adult dog; it appears to be organized before birth by fetal male sex hormones. Dogs castrated at 40 days were compared during two to eight months of age to their sexually intact littermates in social behavior; no differences were seen in mounting, chasing, growling and playing. Dominance did not appear to be affected by early castration.

    Similarly, menopausal and post-menopausal human females developing osteoporosis is one example of the effect of dwindling sex hormones on their skeletal system. The authors quote articles documenting the influence of sex hormones on the growth, development, maintenance and aging of animal skeletal systems, and the corresponding undesirable skeletal and bone effects resulting from the absence of sex hormones due to neutering.

    "Elective Gonadectomy in Dogs: A Review" by Katharine R. Salmeri, DVM, Patricia N. Olsen, DVM, Ph.D. and Mark S. Bloomberg, DVM, MS. It was published in the April 1, 1991 issue of the Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association, volume 198, pages 1183-1191.



    Neutering Male and Female Dogs
    Mary C. Wakeman, D.V.M. Ashford Animal Clinic Canine Fertility Center 269 Mansfield Road Ashford, CT

    There is some confusion in the minds of the public today regarding recommendations for neutering. In the bitch, or female dog, it is true that there is a genuine statistical advantage for bitches spayed before they come in heat for the first time, as regards the possibility of developing mammary cancer later in life.

    Certainly not all intact bitches develop mammary cancer. Certainly all bitches spayed before 6 months of age are not protected from getting mammary cancer. But there is a statistically significant advantage to this procedure in bitches which are not part of a breeding program. The situation in dogs (male dogs), is not equivalent. It is no longer medically justifiable to castrate dogs for prevention of cancer. The overwhelming mass of data to the contrary can no longer be ignored, and publications are out there so that no veterinarian can use the excuse of ignorance. Castration predisposes to highly malignant prostatic cancer. Nearly all dogs afflicted with this nasty tumor are neutered individuals. Testicular cancers are very rare and almost always benign.

    The narrow chests which result are inadequate to support the weight that so many neutered animals...
    ... Once you've seen the harm caused by this practice in person, you quickly change that 'knee-jerk' reaction so often seen, of 'neuter everything that breathes'

    SEXUAL HORMONES PHYSIOLOGICAL ROLES IN MAMMALS

    CONSEQUENCES OF STERILIZATION
    Testosterone and oestrogen deficiencies can induce urinary incontinence (3,4,5,14,15). It occurs in 20% of spayed dogs (6) . This effect is not well understood but sexual hormones probably have effects on the urethral sphincter (14,15). And this problem is more frequent on females then males (3). But it can happen in males also (7). It appears that larger breeds are at greater risk (5,7). Some breeds are known to have a predisposition to urinary incontinence related to spaying: 65% of Boxers are affected, and Dobermans and Giant Schnauzers have a more then average disposition to this condition (5,6).

    A study showed that spayed bitches have a higher risk of developing urinary tract infections, the sexual hormone deprivation having an effect on the bladder defense system (13).

    A study shows that over 80% of intact dogs over 5 years old develop benign prostatic hypertrophy. But neutered dogs would have a higher risk of developing prostatic cancer (adenocarcinoma) (16). Another study shows that castrated dogs have an increased prevalence of pulmonary metastasis then intact dogs (17).

    Another study showed that the more frequent canine prostatic diseases are: bacterial prostatitis, prostatic cyst, prostatic adenocarcinoma and benign hyperplasia (18). This study also showed that the more frequent prostatic disease in castrated dogs is the prostatic adenocarcinome (cancer) (18). In that study, the most common breed with prostatic diseases was the Doberman Pinscher (18).

    It seems that there are more spayed bitches than intact ones that are affected by hypothyroidism (3). A study demonstrated that sterilized dogs (males and females) have a higher risk of developing hypothyroidism than intact females (8).

    One of the potential negative effects of sterilization of bitches is that dominant bitches might become more dominant and develop aggressivity (9).

    SURGICAL ALTERNATIVES TECHNIQUES

    Two surgical techniques are interesting to consider if you wan't to prevent unwanted litters, and prevent unnecessary suffering, without altering the hormonal physiology are vasectomy and tubal ligature. But note that those two techniques won't modify an animal sexual behavior.


    REFERENCES:

    (1) Hadley, M. E., Endocrinology, 1988, Second Edition, Prentice Hall Englewood, 549 pages

    (2) Alberts, B., D. Bray, J. Lewis, M. Raff, K. Roberts and J. D. Watson, Molecular Biology of the Cell, 1983, Garland Publishing, Inc., New York, 1148 pages

    (3)The Merck Veterinary Manual, 1991, Seventh edition, Merck and Co., Inc, Rahway, 1832 pages

    (4) Gregory S.P., "Developments in the understanding of the pathophysiology of urethral sphincter mechanism in competence in the bitch", Br. Vet. J., 1994 Mar;150(2):135-150

    (5) Holt P. E. and M. V. Thrusfield, "Association in bitches between breed, size, neutering and docking, and acquired urinary incontinence due to incompetence of the urethral sphincter mechanism", Vet. Rec., 1993 Aug 21;133(8):177-180)

    (6) Arnold S., "Urinary incontinence in castrated bitches. Part 1: Significance, clinical aspects and etiopathogenesis", Schweiz Arch Tierheilkd, 1997;139(6):271-276)

    (7) Aaron, A., K. Eggleton, C. Power, P. E. Holt, "Urethral sphincter mechanism incompetence in male dogs: a retrospective analysis of 54 cases", Vet. Rec. 1996 Nov 30;139(22):542-546)

    (8) Panciera DL., "Hypothyroidism in dogs: 66 cases (1987-1992)", J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc., 1994, Mar 1;204(5):761-767)

    (9) Fogle, B., The Dog's Mind, 1992, Howell Book House, New York, 201 pages and Tucker, M., Solving your dog Problems, 1988, Howell Book House Inc., New York, 146 pages)

    (10) Dehasse, J., Le Caniche, 1995, Le Jour Editeur, Montréal, 160 pages

    (11) Dehasse, J., Le Doberman, 1995, Le Jour Editeur, Montréal, 156 pages)

    (12) Carlson, J. and R. Green, Good Dogs, Bad Habits, 1995, Firside Books, Toronto, 252 pages)

    (13) Mulholland SG, SM. Qureshi, RW. Fritz, H. Silverman, Effect of hormonal deprivation on the bladder defense mechanism, J Urol 1982 May;127(5):1010-3

    (14) Augsburger, H. R., Cruz-Orive, L. M., "Influence of ovariectomy on the canine striated external urethral sphincter (M. urethralis): a stereological analysis of slow and fast twitch fibres", Urol. Res., 1998, 26(6):417-22

    (15) Augsburger, H. R., Cruz-Orive, L. M., "Stereological analysis of the urethra in sexually intact and spayed female dogs", Acta. Anat. (Basel), 1995, 154(2):135-42

    (16) Johnston S.D., Kamolpatana K., Root-Kustritz MV., Johnston G. R., "Prostatic disorders in the dog", Anim. Reprod. Sci., 2000, Jul., 2; 60-61: 450-15.

    (17) Bell F.W., Klauser J.S., Hayden D.W., Feeney D.A., Johnston S.D., "Clinical and pathologic features of prostatic adenocarcinoma in sexually intact and castrated dogs: 31 cases (1970-1987)

    (18) Krawiec D.R., Heflin D., "Study of prostatic disease in dogs: 177 cases (1981-1986)", J. Am. Vet. Med. Assoc., 1992, Apr. 15; 200 (8): 1119-22
    ---------


    Re: Spaying dogs
    1997/03/16

    I'm from Sweden, where dogs are traditionally not neutered, and we have no problems with keeping our dogs and bitches intact.
    Dogs are not allowed to roam the streets and they are well cared for and we have no overpopulation among dogs.

    SNIP

    Eva
    ---

    See the article, "Behavioural effects of ovariohysterectomy on
    bitches
    " in The Journal of Small Animal Practice (1990) vol 31 pp
    595-598. They concluded that "ther is a risk of increase in dominance
    aggression towards family members.
    This risk is greatest in puppies
    under one year already showing some aggression."



    On the flip side, let's look at the health risks of NOT spaying/neutering your dog.:

    MALES

    * Testicular cancer
    * Benign prostatic hyperplasia
    * Acute and chronic prostatis, prostatic abscess
    * Perianal gland adenomas
    * Orchitis (infection of the testicles)
    * Venereal tumors
    * Perineal hernia (abdominal organs bulging out of rectum)
    * Inguinal hernia with potential organ strangulation

    1 Testicular cancer
    2 Benign prostatic hyperplasia
    3 Acute and chronic prostatis, prostatic abscess
    4 Perianal gland adenomas
    5 Orchitis (infection of the testicles)
    6 Venereal tumors
    7 Perineal hernia (abdominal organs bulging out of rectum)
    8 Inguinal hernia with potential organ strangulation

    1) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.

    Wakeman: Castration predisposes to highly malignant prostatic cancer. Nearly all dogs afflicted with this nasty tumor are neutered individuals.

    Testicular cancers are very rare and almost always benign.

    2) The key word there is "benign" meaning it's normal, and most older men have this as well, unless it causes a restriction in the bowel making movements difficult, it's of no consequence.

    3- through 8 ) I've never seen any of these in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs, either I have very unusual dogs, or these rare conditions are purposefully being used as a scare tactic by both animal rights activists who want pet ownership to end, and veterinarians whose practice highly depends on this lucrative quick surgery to pay the bills.

    FEMALES

    * Breast cancer
    * Cystic endometrial hyperplasia and pyometra
    * False pregnancies
    * Mastitis (can occur during false pregnancy)
    * Transmissible venereal sarcoma
    * Ovarian and uterine tumors
    * Cystic ovaries and hyperestrogenism
    * Chronic endometritis
    * Vaginal hyperplasia and prolapse
    * Uterine torsion or uterine prolapse

    1 Breast cancer
    2 Cystic endometrial hyperplasia and pyometra
    3 False pregnancies
    4 Mastitis (can occur during false pregnancy)
    5 Transmissible venereal sarcoma
    6 Ovarian and uterine tumors
    7 Cystic ovaries and hyperestrogenism
    8 Chronic endometritis
    9 Vaginal hyperplasia and prolapse
    10 Uterine torsion or uterine prolapse

    1) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.

    2) I have seen pyometra, it was taken care of with a hysterectomy at that time.
    3) Completely normal, not a medical problem
    4) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.
    5) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.
    6) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.
    7) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.
    8) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.
    9) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.
    10) I've never seen this in any dog in my 30 years of owning multiple intact dogs.


    It looks as if NOT spaying or neutering your dog has a lot more health risks than spaying or neutering.
    On the SURFACE it might, but that doesn't dismiss the fact that having testes or ovaries is not an abnormality or a disease like cancer, dogs are born with these organs as part of their bodies.

    Add to that list behavioral problems that can occur when you don't spay or neuter your dog:

    Intact male and female dogs are far more likely to be aggressive towards humans and other dogs, than those who are spayed/neutered.
    Considering MOST pet dogs already ARE speutered and dog attacks have increased despite that, looks like that scare theory is part of the money train and the eliminate pets train.

    The number of people admitted to the hospital because of dog bites grew by 86% from 1993 to 2008; in total there were 5,100 cases in 1993 compared with and 9,500 in 2008;

    An average of 866 people went to the hospital emergency room daily in 2008, and an average of 26 were admitted to hospital for dog bite injury;
    In total, for the year 2008, there were 316,000 emergency room visits involving a dog bite, or 103.9 visits per 100,000 population

    http://www.dogexpert.com/Dog%20Bite%...lizations.html



    Indeed, in the reference article further back above, spaying can INCREASE aggression, in some bitches:

    One of the potential negative effects of sterilization of bitches is that dominant bitches might become more dominant and develop aggressivity (9).

    ...increased risk for attacking human beings, especially children.
    This is not a dog problem it is an OWNER, handling, training problem, and as far as children go, PARENTS need to train their kids to NEVER approach stray or strange dogs, NEVER hit, swat, or make threatening motions towards a dog.

    Intact male dogs also have a tendency to "mark their territory" with urine, including their territory inside the owner's home.
    Mine don't, and I currently have two large adult males, and one female, all intact, this is a HOUSETRAINING problem. This is what they make those "billy bands" for, to help train males not to mark.

    They are also far more likely to escape from home when they detect the scent of a female dog in heat, increasing their risk of injury or death from being struck by vehicles.
    And how many intact females just happen to be roaming the streets these days in heat, and not caught by animal control, this may have been a problem 40 years ago, but today there's strict animal control laws, ACO's and others real happy to ticket owners of loose dogs.
    A fenced yard prevents auto-dog collisions, smart dog owners HAVE a fenced yard or area for their dog, the ones who don't will almost certainly lose their dog anyway whether neutered or not.

    veterinarypartner
    Ahhh! yes, the veterinary PARTNER, and this would be a totally unbiased resource for all things spay and neuter I'm sure!

    In summary, it is far more risky to leave a dog intact, than it is to spay or neuter.
    Not in my experience or research, if you want birth control get a vasectomy and tubal ligation.

    I am a veterinary technician, and I have seen SEVERAL cases where human males had tried to penetrate the vaginas of medium sized female dogs.(about 40-50 pounds).
    In 2 of those cases the animals were severely injured, and in 1 case the dog was so damaged that she had to be euthanized.
    How many is "several" ? more than four but less than eight? out of how many dogs brought into this busy emergency clinic per year? where was the proof the injuries were caused by this, and did anyone ascertain exactly what the motives were in each case?
    On the latter, motives are important- if we learn the injuries were caused by young teens experimenting, this is significantly different than the man caught tying the dogs to a tree, beating them and then raping them by force, or using an OBJECT such as a broom stick on purpose to cause pain.

    As you didn't mention numbers, I selected one at random:

    Welcome to the Matthew J. Ryan
    Veterinary Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania.
    We are one of the busiest veterinary teaching hospitals in the country,
    seeing more than 28,000 small animal patient visits
    each year
    , 12,000 of which are emergency cases.
    Our Emergency Service—open 24 hours a day,
    365 days a year—is staffed with emergency medi-
    cine clinicians and augmented by on-call specialists.
    28,000 small animal visits a year, it doesnt break down the number of dogs out of that, but assuming you saw eight canine rapes over an unspecified time fram, a year? five? your whole time at that clinic? with vaginal injuries, that is an extraordinarily small number, even smaller when you consider zoophilia contacts NOT causing injuries is far greater, and when you consider a site such as beastforum shows this tonight on their forum stats, I added commas to make it easier:

    Our members have made a total of 6,131,673 posts
    We have 904,275 registered members
    Most users ever online was 10,632 on Jun 19 2010, 08:32 PM

    Proves the amount of interest and participation in all things zoophilia is far more than most people ever thought, you just don't SEE it because most happens behind the scenes, and in private, but that's the traffic on just ONE web site discussion forum.

    You only hear about it when the odd zoosadist type is caught raping and injuring someone's dog, horse or lamb, and that seems to be about every month such a case appears in the news, if not more frequently.

  16. #256
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfzoo9999 View Post
    And even if that's true, the problem there is what exactly?
    The problem is.. Just because the animal does what YOU want him to do does NOT mean that is what the animal wants. The animal wants to please it's master even if that means doing something the animal does not enjoy. For example, dog fighting..


    Conversely, there's no way of knowing there IS mental or emotional harm when the dog shows absolutely no outward signs. Dogs pretty well show such things usually with destructive behavior and chewing, even aggressiveness.
    Can you support that there is NOT any mental or emotional damage done to the animal?



    "could possibly" doesn't count, you "could possibly" get cancer from drinking the water, but that doesn't count either because there's no PROOF.
    The difference is the likely hood .
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
    "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.~Benjamin Franklin
    "Go big or Go home"~ LoLo Bean

  17. #257
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    The problem is.. Just because the animal does what YOU want him to do does NOT mean that is what the animal wants. The animal wants to please it's master even if that means doing something the animal does not enjoy. For example, dog fighting..
    But there again, even if that is the case in some instances, is there anything humans or ordinary pet owners do to animals always done with the consideration of what the animal WANTS?
    In your statement there, the dog wants to please the owner, but that totally dismisses that male dogs can be masturbated by a total stranger and react/act the same way they do to the zoophiliic owner doing the same to a dog who lives with them.
    As far as dog fighting goes, it's a barbaric act, but dogs, especially two adult males are prone to fighting to begin with.
    Unlike wolves however, dogs don't recognize the typical wolf body language of submission, most wolf inter-fighting and aggression is symbolic show, and dogs will often fight severely and cause considerable damage to one another if not kept apart.

    Can you support that there is NOT any mental or emotional damage done to the animal?
    It's difficult to prove a negative like that, I don't know how one would propose to do that exactly, it's not like there are published double-blind studies of that nature that you can simply google and refer to, but generally when dogs are abused, distressed, bored or unhappy, they channel that into destructiveness and even aggression, gnawing, licking, pacing, barking for hours on end.

    There would more likely be studies done on behaviour problems caused by real abuse, neglect, or a dog chained up who bit people who came near (or the chain broke)

    You also typically can see the reaction of a dog who has been physically struck by the owner, usually for housebreaking infractions, some with a rolled up newspaper, others with a hand, in every case of that you will see a dog who flinches or "shys" away at the slightest notice of a raised hand or sudden movement towards the dog with a hand, it's legendary and it's the result of the dog's anticipation of something unpleasant- being struck! Dogs very clearly show apprehension, fear or wariness in anticipation of PAIN.
    I have a dog who absoluetly hates having her nails clipped, it is a near impossible battle where the usual methods failed- treats, conditioning etc. she simply does not like it, that means I have to physically hold this 100+ pound dog down and carefully clip one nail at a time while she tries escaping it.
    I'm lucky to clip 2 or 3 nails at a time and it's a battle.

    It's well known that dogs who are kept chained up on a short chain in the backyard and left to their own devices channel that frustration into barking constantly, aggressive behaviour towards people passing by, gnawing and licking, pacing.

    Those are ways abuse, neglect manifest themselves.
    Last edited by Wolfzoo9999; June 1st, 2011 at 12:50 AM.

  18. #258
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    I am not sure what to make of this conversation but im going to try to give an opinion. First of all I think that there is a difference between a animal and a child. I would not say that animals can consent but I do want to point out that many are forgetting that humans are also animals and many animals do have intercourse with other types of animals so it is kinda natural even though it seems unnatural.

  19. #259
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Wow, this pillar drug on for some time considering 75% of discourse was concealed inside the first 3 pages of discussion.

    As someone who is NOT a zoophile I must say, the zoophiles have won the argument. Scarlett44, you fail to see that everything you proposed in the beginning was based on some grounds of “factually argumentative psychology”, but stood easily & logically refuted some time ago. Your repeat attempts are merely scuffed & selective points that could easily be refuted if you simply take your defensive points of sexual activity with animals and apply it to that of humans. Breaking down of course your "definitions" of words and THEN realizing your points are merely subjective & relative, based on what I assume is your moral code of ethics and established societal norms.

    I think the “Zoophiles” are wrong, but only on the grounds of moral subjection; morality as defined by that of the Christian God, no more, NO LESS.

    There is no argument, no debate. The zoophiles have won on every philosophical level. All “refuted” points are blind, selective, immature attempts driven by moral sub consciousness.

  20. #260
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by dogssup View Post
    One of the main attacks against bestiality/zoophilia is the issue of consent. These arguments take shape into something like this: "having sex with a dog is wrong because the dog can't say no". Through logic I will show that these arguments by anti-zoos hold no logical reasoning at all, and in fact the consent issue is generally a smoke screen for the icky factor. I will show here that animals can, and do show sexual consent with a human.

    Before I can effectively show that animals do have the ability to consent for sex, I need to define exactly how I am using consent:

    –verb (used without object)
    1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often fol. by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
    2. Archaic. to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony.


    Animals are sentient beings just like humans, that is they have the power of perception and a consciousness. An animal experiences pleasure and pain. A person who owns a dog knows if what they do causes pleasure or pain. When we scratch a dogs head we can tell the dog enjoys this, he may roll on his back and let you rub his stomach. Likewise, hitting the dog in the head with a shoe causes pain and the dog will shy away and be fearful in the future.

    Animals can not verbally say yes or no to sex in our human languages but they have other ways to show how they feel. Surely a dog who has mounted, say his human lover, experiences pleasure. This is evident because of his orgasm. Female dogs have orgasms too. Once a dog for example realizes you as a sexual being, they show sexual desire quite often: females will sway their tales revealing their swollen vagina's and dry hump the air in front of you, males will become erect and try to mount.

    Anyone who is zoo will be aware of when their animals want sex. More importantly, they will respect their animal partner when they do not want sex. Sometimes when you rub your partner down there they will pull away and sit elsewhere. That is how animals show they are either interested or not.

    If an animal does not enjoy what is happening to them they will show bodily signs of this: they will tense up, their eyes and ears will move, tails might jitter, and they will pull away. If you continue it could bring painful results: Dogs have powerful teeth and will bite you! Horses can break bones (or worse) with a single kick. Quite simply, it is obvious to see what causes pleasure and pain.

    As I said before, the consent issue is really a smoke screen for the icky factor. By and large people are disgusted about the idea so they claim consent is a big issue when in fact it is not. People do many awful things to animals who do not consent to what is being done:

    (1) Do animals consent to locking them in a cage?
    (2) Do animals consent to being slaughtered and killed in the millions every year for food?
    (3) Do animals consent to being tested on by chemicals?
    (4) Do animals consent to being 'fixed'?

    If you did any of those four things to a human you would be thrown in jail for life (possibly killed in many US states). Not so ironically though, doing those things to animals is okay. It is accepted and happens everyday.

    But as soon as you have loving sex with your dog who you care for more than anything in the world, somehow you are a sick and awful human being.

    Ironic?
    Humans are animals........Your entire OP has a flawed premise.

 

 
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