Animals *can* consent to sex

[amymariah]

(1) Do animals consent to locking them in a cage?
(2) Do animals consent to being slaughtered and killed in the millions every year for food?
(3) Do animals consent to being tested on by chemicals?
(4) Do animals consent to being 'fixed'?

If you did any of those four things to a human you would be thrown in jail for life (possibly killed in many US states). Not so ironically though, doing those things to animals is okay. It is accepted and happens everyday.

But as soon as you have loving sex with your dog who you care for more than anything in the world, somehow you are a sick and awful human being.

Ironic?

Asie from the fact that u think your argument lacks sense, i have a question straying from that. When do people get thrown in jail for fixing animals, for killing them for food, for putting them in cages? When? Show me laws against these things.

[SarahConnor]

Honestly, how can you think no harm is done to the animal by having sex with it? Dogs might engage in sex for pleasure, but they do this with other dogs, they don't seek out a human and start humping their leg, do they? No, they find another dog.
Humans do not need to have sex with dogs - why, when you have other humans? What is it about having sex with another animal that turns you on?
How do you know your dog is initiating sex with you? I've had dogs hump my leg, but I just push them away, I don't think 'Well hey, the dog wants to have sex with me' - what sort of person even gets that thought in their head?
You seriously cannot say that no phsyical harm would be done by you sticking your penis in that dogs vagina (or anus, if it's a boy dog you lust after) a human penis was not designed to do that, even a five year old would tell you that.
How do you know it would not harm the animal? A dog can't tell you it hurts, can it? You can't read it's mind, you could cause serious damage without knowing it, and that animal could be in serious pain, and how would you know? And don't tell me it would whine or whatever, because a whine from a dog could mean anything from 'I'm hungry' to 'I'm bored' to 'I have a thorn in my paw'.
What if you went to the bet with your dog and it was noticed that there was noticable damage (lets just say) to the dogs genital area - would you be game enough to admit you've been having sex with the animal?

Ho is sex with a dog any different from having sex with a cat? Would you have sex with a cat? Would you have sex with a horse or a pig or donkey?
Why dogs?

OMG....


PLEASE

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD!!!!...

please tell me you don't f*ck dogs.

I just want to hear him admit that he does have sex with his dog, because I am not sure if it's a hypothetical or not that he is posing.

[dogssup]

Honestly, how can you think no harm is done to the animal by having sex with it? Dogs might engage in sex for pleasure, but they do this with other dogs, they don't seek out a human and start humping their leg, do they? No, they find another dog.

Plenty of dogs seek sex...I don't think you've read this whole thread.

Humans do not need to have sex with dogs - why, when you have other humans?

Humans don't "need" to do a lot of the sexual activities they do.

How do you know your dog is initiating sex with you?

Growing an erection and mounting you is pretty obvious isn't it?

I've had dogs hump my leg

Odd. You said above that dogs just don't go up and hump peoples legs. Which is it?

You seriously cannot say that no phsyical harm would be done by you sticking your penis in that dogs vagina (or anus, if it's a boy dog you lust after) a human penis was not designed to do that, even a five year old would tell you that.

Explain to me with all your wisdom how my penis might hurt the dog.

How do you know it would not harm the animal? A dog can't tell you it hurts, can it? You can't read it's mind, you could cause serious damage without knowing it, and that animal could be in serious pain, and how would you know? And don't tell me it would whine or whatever, because a whine from a dog could mean anything from 'I'm hungry' to 'I'm bored' to 'I have a thorn in my paw'.

I sure hope you're not a dog owner. Wouldn't be able to tell they are sick, in pain, and need a vet would you?

What if you went to the bet with your dog and it was noticed that there was noticable damage (lets just say) to the dogs genital area - would you be game enough to admit you've been having sex with the animal?

Yes. Your point?

Ho is sex with a dog any different from having sex with a cat? Would you have sex with a cat? Would you have sex with a horse or a pig or donkey?
Why dogs?

Not sexually attracted to cats, pigs, donkey.

Sex with a cat would cause obvious damage and pain to the cat.

Sex with a large breed of dog/horse would not.

If you do not answer, I will report you for trolling

You do that.

Asie from the fact that u think your argument lacks sense, i have a question straying from that. When do people get thrown in jail for fixing animals, for killing them for food, for putting them in cages? When? Show me laws against these things.

You make brilliant sense.

[CliveStaples]

There is a lot of evidence by psychologists that zoophilia may indeed be another sexual orientation.

Oy. Isn't tolerance great, guys?

You know what's wrong with having sex with an animal? You're having sex. With an animal. This is the really hilarious part, to me:

Call me a specist or a zoophobe but I do believe sex should be done within the species.

That is fine if you accept this to be your personal opinion/belief so long as you don't accept that to be the 'natural way' of things.

So now "inter-species" sex acts aren't outside the "natural way" of things? That's about as far away from the natural order as you can get. No doubt, however, this will become the new frontier on the fight for 'equal rights'. "We're here, we're zoophiliacs, get used to it!"

More popcorn, please.

[dogssup]

Plenty of animals have sex outside their species.

Welcome to reality.

[CliveStaples]

Plenty of animals have sex outside their species.

Welcome to reality.

Really? Which, other than humans with a paraphilia?

[amymariah]

Okay i have had it up to here with this. DOGSUP.. I am going to get right to the bottom line rather than moving around it with a debate that is not hitting the issue.
Why is having sex with animals ...wrong?
How about the fact that it spreads disease...humans got aids becasue some dumb guy had sex with a green monkey.
How about the fact that we could suffer internal bleeding ang get stuck on a dog and have to go into the emergency room with a dock stuck on our ****. Its true.
PEOPLE HAVE DIED! would that be a good way to die? At your funeral your family will be thinking dang he ****** a dog? gross...sorry to say but people WILL think badly of you.

How about the consent issue, you say that errections and humping of legs and what not is conesnt...well if a minor comes on to a 35 year old man and maybe even says " i want to have sex with you" does that make it okay for him to have sex with her? No, its illegal. Likewise having sex with an animal is illegal. So weather or not your dog is consenting to your...sex. Its not right, its illegal, and its very hazordous to you health

and for the love of god why can i ask, do you want to have sex with your dog?


_________________________________ _{Post Merged} _________________________________

Okay i have had it up to here with this. DOGSUP.. I am going to get right to the bottom line rather than moving around it with a debate that is not hitting the issue.
Why is having sex with animals ...wrong?
How about the fact that it spreads disease...humans got aids becasue some dumb guy had sex with a green monkey.
How about the fact that we could suffer internal bleeding ang get stuck on a dog and have to go into the emergency room with a dock stuck on our ****. Its true.
PEOPLE HAVE DIED! would that be a good way to die? At your funeral your family will be thinking dang he ****** a dog? gross...sorry to say but people WILL think badly of you.

How about the consent issue, you say that errections and humping of legs and what not is conesnt...well if a minor comes on to a 35 year old man and maybe even says " i want to have sex with you" does that make it okay for him to have sex with her? No, its illegal. Likewise having sex with an animal is illegal. So weather or not your dog is consenting to your...sex. Its not right, its illegal, and its very hazordous to you health

and for the love of god why can i ask, do you want to have sex with your dog?

ohh yeah speaking of the link good idea clive i clicked on it stupidly and like 50 pages open and my computer wouldnt do anything for five minutes, you meanie.lol

[Scarlett44]

Sex with a child is wrong because s/he will grow up with a high probabilty of emotional/mental problems and so on...Animals don't have this risk!

Don't you think it's time to start SUPPORTING some of your claims?

You made a claim on Friday, in post #39, that animals do not have a risk of developing mental or emotional problems, as a result of having sex with a human being.

Just because you are stating that animals have no risks of said problems, as a result of sexual activity with a human, that does not make it the truth.

Please provide some evidence for this claim.
Your word is not sufficient.

If you cannot provide evidence for this claim, in post #39, please retract it immediately.

Thank you.

[shishomiru04]

Okay i have had it up to here with this. DOGSUP.. I am going to get right to the bottom line rather than moving around it with a debate that is not hitting the issue.
Why is having sex with animals ...wrong?

How about the fact that it spreads disease...humans got aids becasue some dumb guy had sex with a green monkey.

green monkey???...what are you talking about?...humans having sex with humans spread std's, those std's are NOT transmittable to or from and animal...if you would have read the whole thread, this subject was already addressed

How about the fact that we could suffer internal bleeding ang get stuck on a dog and have to go into the emergency room with a dock stuck on our ****. Its true.

uumm...you can't get stuck on a dog, if you are talking about the knot of the dogs penis getting stuck inside of you, well you should know that the swelling goes down after about 30 minutes or so, so you aren't stuck forever....and i've never heard of anyone getting internal bleeding from having sex with a dog...unless that dog had a penis the size of a horse's and penetrated you anally...

PEOPLE HAVE DIED! would that be a good way to die? At your funeral your family will be thinking dang he ****** a dog? gross...sorry to say but people WILL think badly of you.

well, i can't speak for dogssup, but all of my friends and family know i'm a zoosexual, and they are fine with it....and i have no problem making friends because of my orientation.

How about the consent issue, you say that errections and humping of legs and what not is conesnt...well if a minor comes on to a 35 year old man and maybe even says " i want to have sex with you" does that make it okay for him to have sex with her? No, its illegal. Likewise having sex with an animal is illegal. So weather or not your dog is consenting to your...sex. Its not right, its illegal, and its very hazordous to you health

the first part of this has already been answered previously in this thread, please refrain from asking it over again....humans do many things illegal, no one has not ever broken a law...c'mon now...and how is it hazardous to your health?...can you support that claim?

and for the love of god why can i ask, do you want to have sex with your dog?

because i'm a zoosexual, which means i am attracted to animals emotionally as well as sexually...can't explain it any simpler than that

[SarahConnor]

Plenty of dogs seek sex...I don't think you've read this whole thread.

Plenty of dogs seek sex - with other dogs. Dogs do not seek sex with cats, or rabbits, or horses, or humans.

Growing an erection and mounting you is pretty obvious isn't it?

No it isn't. If a horse gets an erection in my prescence should I assume that horse wants to have sex with me?
If your dog humps your leg, you have the option of pushing it away, instead you chose to have sex with that animal. It is your choice which is reprehensive.

Explain to me with all your wisdom how my penis might hurt the dog.

Hmm, human penis in dogs vagina or dogs anus...how might this hurt the animal...gee, I really can't think why, can you?

[shishomiru04]

Plenty of dogs seek sex - with other dogs. Dogs do not seek sex with cats, or rabbits, or horses, or humans.

oh really?...go to youtube, and type in dog humps horse or cat or whatever....they look like they are seeking sex from those animals....the problem with your statement is you don't know enough info to support your claim, when an dog is horny it will try to have sex with anything....stuffed animals included

[Scarlett44]

when a dog is horny it will try to have sex with anything....

Intact male dogs, or any intact male animal, will attempt to satisfy it's sexual desire with anything, or any species, that happens to be conveniently available.

That's true.

The operative word being "attempt".

Other animal species may tolerate a little bit of humping, but other animal species, such as horses, or cats, do not WILLINGLY allow a dog, or a member of a different species, to penetrate them sexually.
Even a female dog will not WILLINGLY allow a male dog to mount her, if she is not in a fertile condition, and able to conceive.

For animals, sex means reproduction.

There are only a few species where the males and females willingly and regularly have sex together, with no possibility of conceiving offspring:
Bonobo chimps, dolphins, and humans.

http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/pleasure.asp

[amymariah]

green monkey???...what are you talking about?...humans having sex with humans spread std's, those std's are NOT transmittable to or from and animal...if you would have read the whole thread, this subject was already addressed

Its true, of course people get aids from peoople, but the first case of aids was a person who had sex with a monkey.

uumm...you can't get stuck on a dog, if you are talking about the knot of the dogs penis getting stuck inside of you, well you should know that the swelling goes down after about 30 minutes or so, so you aren't stuck forever....and i've never heard of anyone getting internal bleeding from having sex with a dog...unless that dog had a penis the size of a horse's and penetrated you anally...

yes, you can..your penis could get stukc if you penetrate them anally. Thre muscles tense up during sex , thats wht dogs wait a few minutes/second.and and many people have have gotten internal bleeding from a dog. no matter who penetrates who.

well, i can't speak for dogssup, but all of my friends and family know i'm a zoosexual, and they are fine with it....and i have no problem making friends because of my orientation.

maybe they are afraid to say anything.

the first part of this has already been answered previously in this thread, please refrain from asking it over again....humans do many things illegal, no one has not ever broken a law...c'mon now...and how is it hazardous to your health?...can you support that claim?

Tht doesnt make it okay.Dogs carry dieses that humabs are not immune to.The chemistry is not meader to combine with ours thats how stds are contracted.

Consent is not my biggest issue, my biggest issue is disese and unlceanliness.

[dogssup]

Just a little tidbit to think about:

"Even though the evolution-related purpose of mating can be said to be reproduction, it is not actually the creating of offspring which originally causes them to mate. It is probable that they mate because they are motivated for the actual copulation, and because this is connected with a positive experience. It is therefore reasonable to assume that there is some form of pleasure or satisfaction connected with the act. This assumption is confirmed by the behavior of males, who in the case of many species are prepared to work to get access to female animals, especially if the female animal is in oestrus, and males who for breeding purposes are used to having sperm collected become very eager, when the equipment they associate with the collection is taken out." -

Scarlet:

Other animals besides humans, dolphins, and primates have sex for pleasure. Male dogs sometimes have sex with other male dogs (anally). Zebras have been noted in doing this as well but there is more evidence that this may be a gesture of dominance or aggression. Oral sex (auto-fellatio) has been noted between goats, hyaenas, sheep, bulls...

I have hundreds of links I'd love to share with all of you but won't post them here (ODN rules). If interested by all means feel free to PM me and I'll give them to you quickly.

Consent is not my biggest issue, my biggest issue is disese and unlceanliness.

I'm interested in what these are.

I'm also interested in if you believe sex with a human is any safer or unclean than an animal.

PS: I have already refuted your concern of disease and uncleanliness in previous postings. I have no problem answering again as it seems that is how things are done in this particular thread.

[Scarlett44]

Other animals besides humans, dolphins, and primates have sex for pleasure. Male dogs sometimes have sex with other male dogs (anally).

Regarding recreational sex in non-human animals:

Excluding homosexual behavior (which may or may not be a dominance behavior, in non-human animals), non-consensual sexual assaults, and masturbatory behavior, what I was talking about specifically was:

"Non-reproductive sex between males and females of the same species"
In other words, when males and females willingly and regularly have sex together, even when the female is in a non-fertile state.

The only species known to exhibit this behavior, other than human beings, are bonobo chimps and dolphins.
http://www.snopes.com/critters/wild/pleasure.asp

Animals do not have this risk!

I'm also interested in finding out if you have any factual information that supports the statement you made on Friday of last week.

You made a claim on Friday, in post #39, that "animals do not have a risk of developing mental or emotional problems, as a result of having sex with a human being".

Just because you are stating that animals have no risks of said problems, as a result of sexual activity with a human, that does not make it the truth.

I CHALLENGE YOU (again), to provide some evidence for your claim that animals do not have any risk of emotional or mental problems, as a result of sex with a human being.

Your word is not sufficient.

If you cannot provide evidence to support this claim, in post #39, I would appreciate it if you would retract it.

[Mr. Hyde]

?...humans having sex with humans spread std's, those std's are NOT transmittable to or from and animal...

In the famous words of Phoenix Wright:

OBJECTION!!

STDs can move from animals to people. It's called Zoonoses.

There's Brucellosis, Leptospirosis, Q Fever, Rabies, and others.

What Amymariah was talking about with the green monkey, is how SIV is considered the origin of the HIV and AIDS viruses in humans.

So there's a definite healthrisk to say the least when it comes to zoophilia.

Then there's the original issue of whether or not animals CAN consent. I'll destroy this with my usual flawless logic.

Once a dog for example realizes you as a sexual being, they show sexual desire quite often: females will sway their tales revealing their swollen vagina's and dry hump the air in front of you, males will become erect and try to mount.

Can you prove that the dog does because it realises you're a "sexual being"? If a dog is erect, and you present a female dog, where is the dog naturally doing to lean? Towards boning a human or towards boning a female dog?

What species (outside human) practises interspecial relations naturally?

A person who owns a dog knows if what they do causes pleasure or pain. When we scratch a dogs head we can tell the dog enjoys this, he may roll on his back and let you rub his stomach.

So because animals can experience pleasure and pain...they clearly want to have interspecies sex? How does rubbing his belly to make him happy logically link to rubbing one out to make him happy?

Quite simply dogs are not humans (let alone 3 year old humans). Apples and oranges? And we're talking about sexually mature dogs here so therefore they already have the capacity to have and enjoy sex.

Scarlett already answered that post showing that dogs possess the cognitive abilities of an infantile child. It's not apples and oranges to draw a parallel that a child at that age doesn't possess the conceptual understanding of sex to consent, nor does a dog likewise possess the conceptual understanding to consent with a being of higher intelligence.

So when dogs mate with other dogs, you're suggesting at least one of them isn't providing consent because they are not intelligent enough.

Smokescreen! When two dogs mate, it's a natural move. Dogs, and almost every other animal on the planet, don't just go, "I'm horny, let's screw!". They have periods of horniness. At a certain point(s) throughout the year, the female will go into heat and the males will compete for mounting rights. So at the outset, the sex isn't comparable as it isn't pleasure-sex, it's procreative-sex.

The second problem with this argument is, falling back to the intelligence issue, let's examine the situation with the proper sentient comparison.

Two 3-year-olds hump each other. Your logic suggests that these children obviously have a clear understanding of sex and should be allowed to bump and grind like nobody's business. Since they don't have a proper understanding (hell, most 3-year-olds think their parents literally hung the moon), it's equally discernable that a dog doesn't possess the intellectual understanding of sex that you do, hence, dogs don't know exactly what the hell's going on, just that whatever it is, it feels nice (like a belly rub). In other words, you're taking advantage of the animal.

Seeing how psychologists argue everyday about intelligence, what it means, and how to measure it I'm skeptical of anyone who uses intelligence as a defense here.

You use it yourself by arguing that animals know what they're doing. You can't have it both ways. Either animals do (they don't and it's proven) and your point fails, or it doesn't, essentially all sex with animals is animal cruelty.

Children are not sexually mature (physically/emotionally) and I am talking about dogs that are sexually mature.

Then change the comparison from a child to a sexually mature retard who has the mental capacity of a 3-year old. That sound permissible? Encourageable?

There is a lot of things going 'round that would suggest the DSM-IV is corrupt at best and therefore can't be really trusted.

As this is a major point in contending that zoophilia isn't a mental disorder, I you to prove that point that the DSM can't be trusted and there's a "lot" to suggest it's corrupt.

You can't even be sure 100% what human beings are thinking or feeling either!

And if we can't even tell with definitive accuracy what our OWN species is thinking/feeling, what makes you so certain can tell what a DIFFERENT species is thinking/feeling?

[dogssup]

Scarlet and Hyde, will answer very soon.


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Then there's the original issue of whether or not animals CAN consent. I'll destroy this with my usual flawless logic.

Good luck

Can you prove that the dog does because it realises you're a "sexual being"?

The actual sex.

If a dog is erect, and you present a female dog, where is the dog naturally doing to lean? Towards boning a human or towards boning a female dog?

Many cases of it happening both ways. Depends on the male dog!

What species (outside human) practises interspecial relations naturally?

Dogs, moose (with equines), mule (the offspring of horse/donkey), ligers (offspring of a lion and tiger). If you want links PM me Hyde. I don't want to get another infraction for "Link Warz".

So because animals can experience pleasure and pain...they clearly want to have interspecies sex? How does rubbing his belly to make him happy logically link to rubbing one out to make him happy?

If you rub a real one out for him I assure you he'll be a lot happier than if you just rubbed his belly Their whole being gets a very noticeable "boost" after an orgasm. Just like any other sexual being.

dogs possess the cognitive abilities of an infantile child. It's not apples and oranges to draw a parallel that a child at that age doesn't possess the conceptual understanding of sex to consent, nor does a dog likewise possess the conceptual understanding to consent with a being of higher intelligence.

Unlike the infantile child the dog has reached sexual maturity.

Smokescreen! When two dogs mate, it's a natural move. Dogs, and almost every other animal on the planet, don't just go, "I'm horny, let's screw!". They have periods of horniness. At a certain point(s) throughout the year, the female will go into heat and the males will compete for mounting rights. So at the outset, the sex isn't comparable as it isn't pleasure-sex, it's procreative-sex.

This is not a reflection if whether it is pleasure-sex but rather a reflection whether individual dogs have sex at arbitary times. From yours and Scarlets same source:

"Of course, we have to make many seemingly artificial distinctions to arrive at our conclusion. Animals other than humans have no awareness that their sexual activities are connected with reproduction: They engage in sex because they're biologically driven to do so, and if the fulfillment of their urges produces a physical sensation we might appropriately call 'pleasure,' it isn't the least bit affected by the possibility (or impossibility) of producing offspring. We are also discounting cases in which animals do engage in sex even though reproduction is an impossibility because we claim there are other 'purposes' (of which the animals themselves are unaware) at play. (For example, the females of some species of birds will invite males to mate with them even after they have laid their eggs, but we ascribe a purpose to this behavior: this is a biological "trick" to fool males into caring for hatchlings they didn't father.) We also employ subjective terms such as 'willingly' and 'regularly' in claiming that bonobos and dolphins are the only other animals who "willingly (and regularly) engage in sex with each other" ... and even then it may be the case that these species have some other 'purpose' for doing so that we haven't yet discovered..."

Two 3-year-olds hump each other. Your logic suggests that these children obviously have a clear understanding of sex and should be allowed to bump and grind like nobody's business. Since they don't have a proper understanding (hell, most 3-year-olds think their parents literally hung the moon), it's equally discernable that a dog doesn't possess the intellectual understanding of sex that you do, hence, dogs don't know exactly what the hell's going on, just that whatever it is, it feels nice (like a belly rub). In other words, you're taking advantage of the animal.

Wrong. A 3 year old is not sexually mature. A "3" year old dog is sexually mature. Quite a difference!

Then change the comparison from a child to a sexually mature retard who has the mental capacity of a 3-year old. That sound permissible? Encourageable?

You suggesting mental retards shouldn't have sex?

As this is a major point in contending that zoophilia isn't a mental disorder, I you to prove that point that the DSM can't be trusted and there's a "lot" to suggest it's corrupt.

Don't worry too long I've been working on this

And if we can't even tell with definitive accuracy what our OWN species is thinking/feeling, what makes you so certain can tell what a DIFFERENT species is thinking/feeling?

I was just throwing that comment for scarlet because I thought it was hilarious to point out. I don't think you and I need to debate that an orgasm doesn't feel good and that animals (including humans) share that quality.

I'm also interested in finding out if you have any factual information that supports the statement you made on Friday of last week.

You made a claim on Friday, in post #39, that "animals do not have a risk of developing mental or emotional problems, as a result of having sex with a human being".

Retracted. I can't "prove" they don't and neither can you "prove" that they do. All I have is personal experience. There is no emotional or mental issues that can be seen. Anybody could look at my dog and would never say to themselves, 'that dog has mental issues or emotionally messed up'. In every way personality wise and behaviorally they are the same dog before sex even happened.

[Scarlett44]

You suggesting mental retards shouldn't have sex?

There is more than one level of mental retardation, as I mentioned previously.

A mildly retarded individual may possibly have the cognitive capability to give informed consent.

However, retarded individuals who have the cognitive abilities of a three year old do not have the mental capability to give informed consent.
They would be considered severely or profoundly retarded, and it would be immoral to allow such individuals to have sex with each other.
It would also be immoral for an human adult with normal intelligence to have sex with such an individual.

Question:
Would YOU have sex with an sexually mature human who had the mental capability of a three-year old child?

Because, ethically and morally speaking, that's the same as having sex with your dog.

Retracted. I can't prove they don't.

Thank you.

Which brings us back to the dilemma of the sexually mature 12 year old child, who also technically meets all of your criteria for sex:

~sexually mature
~can consent to sex

But there's one problem:

You don't know for sure what the 12 year old is thinking, just like you don't know for sure what your dog is thinking.

The sexually mature 12 year old may or may not develop emotional or mental problems as a result of having sex with you, just as your dog may or may not develop emotional or mental problems as a result of having sex with you.

So, you cannot say with any certainty, that either the 12 year old OR the dog WILL develop any emotional/mental problems.
Conversely, you cannot say with any certainty, that either the 12 year old OR the dog WILL NOT develop emotional/mental problems

They may, or they may not.

Keeping all that in mind, having sex with the sexually mature 12 year old, is also ethically and morally the same as having sex with your dog.

You are taking a chance on emotionally/mentally harming your dog, just as you would be taking a chance on emotionally/mentally harming the 12 year old.

There is a problem with this.

Previously you stated that one of your criteria for sex is:

~no risk of physical, emotional, or mental harm

But, there is a risk of harm, because you cannot prove that there is not.


By having sex with your dog, you are violating your own criteria.

neither can you prove that they do.

You stated yourself that animals are sentient beings.

"Sentient" meaning that they are capable of being aware of sensations and emotions, of feeling pain and suffering.

They experience emotions such as fear, anger, affection, grief, jealousy, anxiety, happiness, and excitement, to name a few.

They also exhibit behaviors that indicate some of the same emotional disorders as humans.

Such as compulsive disorders, depression, separation anxiety, phobias, stress disorders,
self-injury, and even eating disorders.

If they experience all these emotional disorders, there is at least a possibility that they would develop emotional/mental problems from having sex with a human being.

[url]http://www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_psychopathology

[Mr. Hyde]

The actual sex.

So the animal doesn't realise you're a sexual being until after you've had sex with it?

Dogs, moose (with equines), mule (the offspring of horse/donkey), ligers (offspring of a lion and tiger). If you want links PM me Hyde. I don't want to get another infraction for "Link Warz".

I think you misunderstand the Link Warz rule. It doesn't mean you can't use links. It means you can't go, "Oh yeah, well that's refuted by this (insert link)!" and then leave it at that. You've got to add your own argumentation or statements and use the source as support for your argument, IE, "According to (link) there's approximately 800 Thousand cheese farmers selling cheese on the black market to terrorists. This supports my already stated point that cheese farming supports terrorism."

But I'd have to see numbers showing how often mules and ligers occur naturally to discern whether or not this was a natural act of animals, or isolated incidents caused by some other factor.

This is not a reflection if whether it is pleasure-sex but rather a reflection whether individual dogs have sex at arbitary times. From yours and Scarlets same source:

Animals other than humans have no awareness that their sexual activities are connected with reproduction: They engage in sex because they're biologically driven to do so, and if the fulfillment of their urges produces a physical sensation we might appropriately call 'pleasure,' it isn't the least bit affected by the possibility (or impossibility) of producing offspring.

This actually goes to hurt yourself. According to that chunk, the prior statements you've made that the animal "realises" you're a sexual being are inaccurate because the animal itself has no idea what the hell is going on, just that it feels good.

You suggesting mental retards shouldn't have sex?

I would suggest people not sex up the retarded, yes.

[dogssup]

There is more than one level of mental retardation, as I mentioned previously.

A mildly retarded individual may possibly have the cognitive capability to give informed consent.

Who are you to decide who can or can not have sex?

However, retarded individuals who have the cognitive abilities of a three year old do not have the mental capability to give informed consent.
They would be considered severely or profoundly retarded, and it would be immoral to allow such individuals to have sex with each other.

If they wanted to why should they not be allowed to?

It would also be immoral for an human adult with normal intelligence to have sex with such an individual.

Debatable.

Question:
Would YOU have sex with an sexually mature human who had the mental capability of a three-year old child?

I personally wouldn't but who am I to judge others who might?

Which brings us back to the dilemma of the sexually mature 12 year old child, who also technically meets all of your criteria for sex:

~sexually mature
~can consent to sex

But there's one problem:

You don't know for sure what the 12 year old is thinking, just like you don't know for sure what your dog is thinking.

The sexually mature 12 year old may or may not develop emotional or mental problems as a result of having sex with you, just as your dog may or may not develop emotional or mental problems as a result of having sex with you.

So, you cannot say with any certainty, that either the 12 year old OR the dog WILL develop any emotional/mental problems.
Conversely, you cannot say with any certainty, that either the 12 year old OR the dog WILL NOT develop emotional/mental problems

You over simplify the issues.

The difference is that there are volumes of research dedicated to the emotional and mental effects of a 12 year old having sex.

Yet to find any for animals.

Keeping all that in mind, having sex with the sexually mature 12 year old, is also ethically and morally the same as having sex with your dog.

Wrong. She will grow up and have a higher chance of experiencing emotional or mental issues. Have yet to see any outstanding research to suggest that happens with dogs.

You are taking a chance on emotionally/mentally harming your dog

Plenty of dog owners take that risk everyday by simply owning a dog, don't they? I wonder how the dog feels about not being run 5 miles a day, locked in a room all day, or not being socialized.

Previously you stated that one of your criteria for sex is:

~no risk of physical, emotional, or mental harm

But, there is a risk of harm, because you cannot prove that there is not.
By having sex with your dog, you are violating your own criteria.

Wrong. I explained above (which you cut out while quoting me) that in my experience the dog has not experienced any emotional or mental problems due to sex.

To suggest that dogs MIGHT or SHOULD feel emotional or mental problems from sex would imply that they have a higher cognitive ability in regards to the 'risks of sex' than you stated previously.

If they experience all these emotional disorders, there is at least a possibility that they would develop emotional/mental problems from having sex with a human being.

Proof?