Yes, but the question is about how humans came to revile one cruelty but accept another as an unfortunate necessity.Originally Posted by Scarlett44
If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME
As I said, since you are a vegetarian, my arguments don't apply to you. They go out to those people who don't mind eating meat and eggs on the one hand, yet deride zoophiles for "exploiting" animals on the other. Their sudden development of compassion for animal welfare is more likely an after-the-fact rationalisation to justify their inherent revulsion at bestiality.
Why is it his job to prove the absence of something? Since when do we assume that harm exists unless proven otherwise? If you claim that animal sex is cruel because of physical or emotional harm, then the burden lies on you to show that there is a significant risk they would be harmed.
Also, your argument would similarly not work for the vast majority of people who couldn't care less whether animals are "harmed" by being cooped up in breeding farms and slaughtered for meat. If we can kill animals for food or hunt them for sport, what's so heinous about having sex with them, especially if they seem to enjoy it?
As Scarlett pointed out, meat-eating is unnecessary for survival. Even if it was necessary in the stone age, we are not talking about the stone age here. We are talking about today's society, where vegetarianism is a very viable option. If your concern is truly for the animals, why not become a vegetarian?
Is it not obvious enough? Whereas animal slaughter deprives them of their very life, animal sex causes them no demonstrable harm, and in fact appears to only bring them pleasure. It is thus absurd to claim that the latter is more cruel than the former.
Trendem
Because I think that you can kill an animal humanely. There's no way to have sex with an animal humanely; it has the mental capacity of a child. Just because they appear to enjoy it, or appear to welcome it, does not mean that they are truly giving consent.As Scarlett pointed out, meat-eating is unnecessary for survival. Even if it was necessary in the stone age, we are not talking about the stone age here. We are talking about today's society, where vegetarianism is a very viable option. If your concern is truly for the animals, why not become a vegetarian?
"Appears only to bring them pleasure"? Support, please; I have no idea how you can claim to know the psychological effects that sex with humans has on animals. Just because there's no physical trauma doesn't meant that there has been no harm done.Is it not obvious enough? Whereas animal slaughter deprives them of their very life, animal sex causes them no demonstrable harm, and in fact appears to only bring them pleasure. It is thus absurd to claim that the latter is more cruel than the former.
And whether an act is cruel or humane doesn't always turn on whether it deprives a person of their life; there are humane ways to kill someone, and cruel ways to keep them alive.
If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME
Well, if you remember, I did not bring up the issue of emotional harm.
dogssup brought up the issue of emotional harm to animals in post #39, claiming that there was no risk of it, and that "risk of emotional harm " was something that only occurred in humans.
He later retracted it, saying that he could not prove it.
"As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".
I also explained that in my experience there has been no emotional or mental harm. It still does not negate the fact the burden of proof is on you because you're still bringing the issue up.
I'd rather be screwed than stewed
Umm, why should animals consent to sex alone? Do animals give consent to be killed? If not, then why is killing them acceptable, if whether an act is humane or not turns on whether the animal can fully give consent to that act?
In fact, if we want to stretch this spurious logic of "full consent" further, we can argue that an animal is basically incapable of consenting to anything, since it lacks the mental capacity to appreciate the full risks of walking down a street, playing catch, eating scraps, being bathed, etc. I suppose it is cruel and inhumane to do ANYTHING to your pet.
As stated before, the onus is on you - in condemning an act to be harmful - to prove that there is harm.
As for support that animals derive physical pleasure from sex with humans, I believe dogssup has given ample documentation of that. If you think he is lying, please give evidence to contradict him.
And yet in spite of all the bluster and rhetoric, your side has failed to provide a modicum of proof supporting the implication that animal sex is cruel. Lack of full consent (the type of consent we demand of humans) does not equal cruelty.
Trendem
As I stated before, this is purely anecdotal, and does not prove that the risk of harm does not exist.
You essentially made a claim that the only difference between having sex with your dog, and having sex with a physically mature 12 year old, is the risk of emotional/mental harm, and that animals had no risk of it.Originally Posted by dogssup
You later retracted that claim, saying that you could not prove the absence of risk.
Keeping in mind that you retracted your claim, is there now any ethical or moral difference between having sex with a physically mature 12 year old, and having sex with your dog?
There are only two possibilities here, as I stated previously.
Either there is a risk, or there is not.
If we only have two possible outcomes, the probability of either one being true is 50%.
This is basic math.
So, there is still a 50% probability that the animal has a risk of emotional harm.
Having sex with a dog, when there is a 50% chance of emotional harm, makes it immoral to sexually molest the dog.
"As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".
Because sexual assault harms predominantly psychologically, not physically. It's a different kind of harm--one that lacks the practical necessity that killing the animal does not. It's tough to eat an animal without killing it, and killing it quickly and painlessly is the humane thing to do. What practical purpose is served by engaging in sex acts with the animal, since you agree that the act requires as much justification for the harm caused as killing it?Umm, why should animals consent to sex alone? Do animals give consent to be killed? If not, then why is killing them acceptable, if whether an act is humane or not turns on whether the animal can fully give consent to that act?
Support? I think animals do understand the risks of walking down a street--a large object bearing down on you at great speed generally signals danger, to both human and animal alike.In fact, if we want to stretch this spurious logic of "full consent" further, we can argue that an animal is basically incapable of consenting to anything, since it lacks the mental capacity to appreciate the full risks of walking down a street, playing catch, eating scraps, being bathed, etc. I suppose it is cruel and inhumane to do ANYTHING to your pet.
Since you support the act, and offer truth claims about the (lack of) harm done, the onus is on you to support your claims. I am willing to support the claims I make, but don't pretend that your case doesn't need any support either.As stated before, the onus is on you - in condemning an act to be harmful - to prove that there is harm.
The fact that animals can have orgasms doesn't mean that engaging in sex with them is harmless. Human females can have orgasms, too, after all. It isn't enough to prove that animals can derive pleasure from sex.As for support that animals derive physical pleasure from sex with humans, I believe dogssup has given ample documentation of that. If you think he is lying, please give evidence to contradict him.
"Bluster" and "rhetoric"? I don't know what thread you've been reading, Trend, but I've tried to remain calm and thoughtful--but, hey, if you want to get excited about this, go right ahead.And yet in spite of all the bluster and rhetoric, your side has failed to provide a modicum of proof supporting the implication that animal sex is cruel. Lack of full consent (the type of consent we demand of humans) does not equal cruelty.
"My" side has shown that ending an animal's life isn't necessarily cruel, so long as it is done in a humane way for a good purpose. What your side has completely failed to do is establish any kind of reason or rationale beyond sheer narcissistic indulgence of sexual fantasies for forcibly engaging in sex without the consent of one's partner--i.e., rape. Your side has claimed--without support--that such indulgences cause "no harm" and that the animal actually "enjoys it"--also common defenses in human-to-human rape cases. Without a sufficiently good reason, I cannot condone acting in such a reckless, careless manner.
If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME
"My" side has shown that ending an animal's life isn't necessarily cruel, so long as it is done in a humane way for a good purpose. What your side has completely failed to do is establish any kind of reason or rationale beyond sheer narcissistic indulgence of sexual fantasies for forcibly engaging in sex without the consent of one's partner--i.e., rape. Your side has claimed--without support--that such indulgences cause "no harm" and that the animal actually "enjoys it"--also common defenses in human-to-human rape cases. Without a sufficiently good reason, I cannot condone acting in such a reckless, careless manner.
rape???....rape is unwanted sexual contact, how do you know for sure that it is unwanted sexual contact?...have any proof that it is?....and who in their right mind would "force" themselves upon anyone or an animal even?....if a dog mounts me, i am forcing myself upon him eh?...i made him do it right?....yeah thats logical...we don't tell our animals, come here and do me right now, we don't keep them chained up so they don't get away while we perform sexual acts upon them, we don't muzzle them so they can't bite us while we "rape" them...last i knew dogs can be quite dangerous if they feel threatened especially really large dogs....you better believe that if you tried to grab a dog's penis or ear or tail or anything else and they didn't want you doing so, they will surely let you know that they don't want you to do that....
ZOOSEXUAL AND PROUD!
Sparkling angel I believe, you were my savior in my time of need. Blinded by faith I couldn't hear. All the whispers, the warnings so clear. I see the angels, I'll lead them to your door. There's no escape now, no mercy no more. No remorse cause I still remember
That isn't the standard; it's the reverse, you must know that it's consensual before you have sex.Originally Posted by shishomiru
You misunderstand the nature of power structures, I think. Victims of sexual abuse do not always physically resist their abusers; and merely because they are seeking sexual contact does not mean that you should engage in it with them. High schoolers, for instance, might attempt to initiate sex with an adult, but it would be wrong for an adult to engage in that sort of activity with them.Originally Posted by shishomiru
If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME
Animals and 'high schoolers' are different subjects legally and morally.
Animals are technically property.
Do you ask your car to consent before screwing it?
No.
It's a non-issue.
I'd rather be screwed than stewed
Animals and cars are different; can you be arrested for kicking your car?Originally Posted by dogssup
The question is whether you are causing harm, and it's the same concern for both humans and animals. Now, perhaps it's the case that animals experience no psychological harm whatsoever from this sort of thing, or maybe it's the case that they do. I haven't seen persuasive evidence either way, and my understanding of humans makes me inclined to believe that it does cause harm.
If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME
It is amazing what you can get a dog to do or put up with, with just some positive reinforcement..
And I have never had to use Peanut Butter to entice a lover. For something so "natural" it sure does seem to take some training, and patience.
The modus operandi is quite similar, isn't it? Using sweets as bait, that is.Originally Posted by tinkerbell
If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
**** you, I won't do what you tell me
HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME
You must have a misconception of how it works! That's okay I don't expect you to know. A woman has *no* need to use peanut butter. End of story.
Great logic! Until there is proof that it causes psychological harm it is non-issue. Also the evidence must suggest overwhelmingly that this is the case because thousands of people do this and report no such thing...
If: If there is psychological harm it does not suggest the activity is wrong. Is it possible that human-human sex can cause psychological harm? Yes. Does that mean we shouldn't have human-human sex or make it altogether illegal? Good luck!
I'd rather be screwed than stewed
so when a dog has a hard on and starts humping my leg or any other pert of me, he's not horny?...RUBBISH!....when my boyfriend is horny he practically acts the same way lolJust because a dog starts humping your leg doesn't mean it wants sex.....if a male of any species has a boner...it's more than likely horny...
trust me, I don't need peanut butter....usually women need no bait for that sort of thing...It is amazing what you can get a dog to do or put up with, with just some positive reinforcement..
And I have never had to use Peanut Butter to entice a lover. For something so "natural" it sure does seem to take some training, and patience.
i'd also like to point out that not every animal is interested in bonig a human(obviuosly)....the fact that if a male had to choose between a female of it's own species or a human is completely irrelevant, because some dogs or anything else simply don't like humans "in that way"......every animal has it's own preference...if a dog shows that kind of interest in me, well great!, but if he doesn't, it isn't like i keep on bugging him or trying to get him to do things he doesn't want to do....i have a knack for knowing what animals think when i get to know them a little, i have by friends and family a few times over have been called a whisperer...i study animal body language, and the noises they make, the expressions on their faces, the looks they give me...i know when they are bored, when they are hungry, when they are lonely, when they are tired, when they are happy, angry or jealous...these things are all very easy to figure out to me....so i honestly know when i am doing harm and when i am doing no harm to them...thats if you believe in that sort of thing, allot of people don't...oh well
ZOOSEXUAL AND PROUD!
Bookmarks