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  1. #1
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    Animals *can* consent to sex

    One of the main attacks against bestiality/zoophilia is the issue of consent. These arguments take shape into something like this: "having sex with a dog is wrong because the dog can't say no". Through logic I will show that these arguments by anti-zoos hold no logical reasoning at all, and in fact the consent issue is generally a smoke screen for the icky factor. I will show here that animals can, and do show sexual consent with a human.

    Before I can effectively show that animals do have the ability to consent for sex, I need to define exactly how I am using consent:

    –verb (used without object)
    1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often fol. by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
    2. Archaic. to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony.


    Animals are sentient beings just like humans, that is they have the power of perception and a consciousness. An animal experiences pleasure and pain. A person who owns a dog knows if what they do causes pleasure or pain. When we scratch a dogs head we can tell the dog enjoys this, he may roll on his back and let you rub his stomach. Likewise, hitting the dog in the head with a shoe causes pain and the dog will shy away and be fearful in the future.

    Animals can not verbally say yes or no to sex in our human languages but they have other ways to show how they feel. Surely a dog who has mounted, say his human lover, experiences pleasure. This is evident because of his orgasm. Female dogs have orgasms too. Once a dog for example realizes you as a sexual being, they show sexual desire quite often: females will sway their tales revealing their swollen vagina's and dry hump the air in front of you, males will become erect and try to mount.

    Anyone who is zoo will be aware of when their animals want sex. More importantly, they will respect their animal partner when they do not want sex. Sometimes when you rub your partner down there they will pull away and sit elsewhere. That is how animals show they are either interested or not.

    If an animal does not enjoy what is happening to them they will show bodily signs of this: they will tense up, their eyes and ears will move, tails might jitter, and they will pull away. If you continue it could bring painful results: Dogs have powerful teeth and will bite you! Horses can break bones (or worse) with a single kick. Quite simply, it is obvious to see what causes pleasure and pain.

    As I said before, the consent issue is really a smoke screen for the icky factor. By and large people are disgusted about the idea so they claim consent is a big issue when in fact it is not. People do many awful things to animals who do not consent to what is being done:

    (1) Do animals consent to locking them in a cage?
    (2) Do animals consent to being slaughtered and killed in the millions every year for food?
    (3) Do animals consent to being tested on by chemicals?
    (4) Do animals consent to being 'fixed'?

    If you did any of those four things to a human you would be thrown in jail for life (possibly killed in many US states). Not so ironically though, doing those things to animals is okay. It is accepted and happens everyday.

    But as soon as you have loving sex with your dog who you care for more than anything in the world, somehow you are a sick and awful human being.

    Ironic?

  2. #2
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    So...am I right to assume you're a zoophiliac then.


    But you're right, most of the reason that I'm against sex with animals is because I find it nasty. Call me a specist or a zoophobe but I do believe sex should be done within the species.
    I love animals, I have a dog who I had to fight to get. I love horses and have a strong bond towards nature. But not that type of bond....ever. That an animal may find a sexual interaction as enjoyable isn't enough, for me, to agree with it. My dog has humped a number of objects not in the least sexual....he, like other animals, are oppurtunistic with sex. That their behavior isn't telling them to leave them be also doesn't mean much as well with this mindset.

    To me animals, despite my love and bond towards them, hold irrevocable differences that just scream don't do 'em. My dog is smart, curious, and a wonderful pet. But he's like my baby moreso than anything else. His mind is that of about a 3 year old....not a mind to give consent to a human. IN society, we have taboos and laws against many forms of sex with brains far more developed than that of an animals....yet it's wrong as well.



    With luv,
    BD
    We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are.

  3. #3
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDreams View Post
    Call me a specist or a zoophobe but I do believe sex should be done within the species.
    That is fine if you accept this to be your personal opinion/belief so long as you don't accept that to be the 'natural way' of things.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDreams View Post
    he, like other animals, are oppurtunistic with sex.
    And human beings are not?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDreams View Post
    His mind is that of about a 3 year old....not a mind to give consent to a human.
    How did you come up with the idea your dog has a mind of a 3 year old?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDreams View Post
    IN society, we have taboos and laws against many forms of sex with brains far more developed than that of an animals....yet it's wrong as well.
    We also have many arbitrary laws.

    The central question is who is being hurt if your dog gives you oral sex? Nobody.

  4. #4
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by dogssup View Post
    Animals can not verbally say yes or no to sex in our human languages but they have other ways to show how they feel.

    Once a dog for example realizes you as a sexual being, they show sexual desire quite often: females will sway their tales revealing their swollen vagina's and dry hump the air in front of you, males will become erect and try to mount.
    So...does this mean that if my male dog happens to come up to me and start humping my leg, I should take this as a sign said dog wants to 'get lucky' and therefore I may have sex with said dog?
    Sparkling angel I believe, you were my savior in my time of need. Blinded by faith I couldn't hear. All the whispers, the warnings so clear. I see the angels, I'll lead them to your door. There's no escape now, no mercy no more. No remorse cause I still remember

  5. #5
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by dogssup View Post
    How did you come up with the idea your dog has a mind of a 3 year old?
    Actually, dogs have the cognitive abilities of a 2-3 year old child.
    http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Featur...nddogsdogthink
    "As long as I have a voice, I will speak for those who have none".

  6. #6
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    Actually, dogs have the cognitive abilities of a 2-3 year old child.
    http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Featur...nddogsdogthink
    Dang, and I just guessed. I figured since the average parrot has the mind a 1st grader, then a dog is a bit less. My dog can read my expressions and body language most of the time, learn basic behaviors that are considered acceptable, and communicate to an extent....all traits that my 3-yr-old brother has as well. He cannot do certain things that my other siblings and I can do, though. Such a sweetheart...but in human cognitive terms a perpetual youth.

    That is fine if you accept this to be your personal opinion/belief so long as you don't accept that to be the 'natural way' of things.
    Just because something is natural, or occurs in nature, doesn't mean I should condone or accept said behavior for people. Chimps can murder, certain birds can gang rape, and a variety of animals can have sex with a different species. None of these I accept as okay behavior in humans.
    And human beings are not?
    We can be, but sexual behavior that is largely oppurtunistic is more often looked down upon than condoned

    The central question is who is being hurt if your dog gives you oral sex? Nobody.
    whether someone/thing is hurt doesn't necessitate that something is right, wrong, or neutral. And your main question is whether animal can consent....not whether it harms them. My statement is if you put an animal on the level of human sexuality, than you should put the animal with a human cognitive age. Three year olds, in all societies, are not able to give consent (at least on a legal or social correct basis) and therefore a dog cannot as well.

    With luv,
    BD
    We do not see things as they are, we see things as we are.

  7. #7
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueDreams View Post
    My statement is if you put an animal on the level of human sexuality, than you should put the animal with a human cognitive age. Three year olds, in all societies, are not able to give consent (at least on a legal or social correct basis) and therefore a dog cannot as well.

    With luv,
    BD
    That is indeed a big if you have there, BlueDreams.

    Quite simply dogs are not humans (let alone 3 year old humans). Apples and oranges? And we're talking about sexually mature dogs here so therefore they already have the capacity to have and enjoy sex.

  8. #8
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    It has not been proven that animals have sufficient intelligence to understand the situation enough to provide consent. If you want to argue for sex with animals this is not the proper way to go.

  9. #9
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    It has not been proven that animals have sufficient intelligence to understand the situation enough to provide consent.
    You need intelligence to know what feels good? Dang! I guess since I'm not in mensa I can't enjoy an orgasm. What exactly is there to understand for a dog in these types of situations? So when dogs mate with other dogs, you're suggesting at least one of them isn't providing consent because they are not intelligent enough.

  10. #10
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by dogssup View Post
    You need intelligence to know what feels good? Dang! I guess since I'm not in mensa I can't enjoy an orgasm. What exactly is there to understand for a dog in these types of situations? So when dogs mate with other dogs, you're suggesting at least one of them isn't providing consent because they are not intelligent enough.
    No they are not providing consent when they mate, but since neither is taking advantage of the other it not really rape. Feeling good does not mean that you can consent a child can be made to feel good sexually by an adult but they do not have mental ability to provide consent, that's why it's molestation.

    And since we can not communicate with animals we are in even less of a position to obtain any form of consent from them.

  11. #11
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    No they are not providing consent when they mate, but since neither is taking advantage of the other it not really rape.
    So you are suggesting two things here: (1) that humans who have sex with animals are taking advantage of said animal and (2) ultimately this is rape. How is it taking advantage of a dog who initiates the sex? As I described in the first post sex with animals does not always mean rape (just like sex between adults doesn't always involve rape): animals can bite, kick, scratch, and show other bodily discomforts if they are not enjoying what is happening.


    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    Feeling good does not mean that you can consent a child can be made to feel good sexually by an adult but they do not have mental ability to provide consent, that's why it's molestation.
    Flawed logic -- we're not talking about children here. Sexually mature animals and children are two different things.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    And since we can not communicate with animals we are in even less of a position to obtain any form of consent from them.
    So you believe the only form of communication in the world is verbal language? Would it be okay to have sex with a human who was mute? And like I said before, you can't have your cake and eat it too: If you are going to scream about consent in regards to sex, I assume you are also against the meat industry, chemical testing on animals for our health and beauty products, etc.
    Last edited by dogssup; April 7th, 2008 at 07:53 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  12. #12
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by dogssup View Post
    So you are suggesting two things here: (1) that humans who have sex with animals are taking advantage of said animal and (2) ultimately this is rape. How is it taking advantage of a dog who initiates the sex? As I described in the first post sex with animals does not always mean rape (just like sex between adults doesn't always involve rape): animals can bite, kick, scratch, and show other bodily discomforts if they are not enjoying what is happening.
    Again consent is not just about enjoying something. You have to be able to make an informed decision to truly consent to something. Until we can prove that animals are of sufficent intelligence and they can comminucate what they want to us we are not receiving consent.

    Flawed logic -- we're not talking about children here. Sexually mature animals and children are two different things.
    The important thing is that both are of lower intelligence than the common adult. As such the comparison is valid unless you can prove that animals have an intelligence equal to the common human adult.

    So you believe the only form of communication in the world is verbal language? Would it be okay to have sex with a human who was mute? And like I said before, you can't have your cake and eat it too: If you are going to scream about consent in regards to sex, I assume you are also against the meat industry, chemical testing on animals for our health and beauty products, etc.
    There are other forms of communication of course. Sign language and writing for example. Now you get to a more valid argument which is that it may be morally contradictory to support killing and otherwise harming animals while being against raping them. But, using them for food and to improve our health provides us with a benefit while sex with them does not.

  13. #13
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    Again consent is not just about enjoying something. You have to be able to make an informed decision to truly consent to something. Until we can prove that animals are of sufficent intelligence and they can comminucate what they want to us we are not receiving consent.
    What exactly does "sufficent intelligence" mean? Seeing how psychologists argue everyday about intelligence, what it means, and how to measure it I'm skeptical of anyone who uses intelligence as a defense here. Sex is the basic drive for animals -- in this case humans and dogs -- and there is little need for "intelligence" in the traditional sense at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    The important thing is that both are of lower intelligence than the common adult. As such the comparison is valid unless you can prove that animals have an intelligence equal to the common human adult.
    I don't have to prove anything here because your original comparison is logically flawed in the first place. It ends here.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    There are other forms of communication of course. Sign language and writing for example.
    So body language doesn't exist and has no importance? As I asked before, what about sex with a human being who is mute?

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    Now you get to a more valid argument which is that it may be morally contradictory to support killing and otherwise harming animals while being against raping them. But, using them for food and to improve our health provides us with a benefit while sex with them does not.
    No, there is no longer any need to test chemicals on animals for our health/beauty products.

    Not only is this whole situation morally contradictory it is also a highly convenient excuse to hide behind the icky factor.

  14. #14
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by dogssup View Post
    What exactly does "sufficent intelligence" mean? Seeing how psychologists argue everyday about intelligence, what it means, and how to measure it I'm skeptical of anyone who uses intelligence as a defense here. Sex is the basic drive for animals -- in this case humans and dogs -- and there is little need for "intelligence" in the traditional sense at all.
    Intelligence in application to this situation would refer to their ability to understand the situation.

    I don't have to prove anything here because your original comparison is logically flawed in the first place. It ends here.
    You have yet to show how it is logically flawed. Both are beings who are under current assumptions thought to have lower intelligence than the average adult human. For this reason neither can provide consent.
    So body language doesn't exist and has no importance? As I asked before, what about sex with a human being who is mute?
    Body language exists of course, but we can interpret human body language along with other forms of language. This allows us to interpret it on its own. We can not do this with animals. As for the mute besides body language I already mentioned sign language and writing. If a person had no route left expect body language to communicate I would consider sex with them to be questionable as body language can not always be straightforward.

    No, there is no longer any need to test chemicals on animals for our health/beauty products.
    If by health product you mean medicine, then yes there is need. And animal testing is an integral part of that. As for beauty products I don't really care about no new ones coming out, but if they are they need to be tested for safety.

    Not only is this whole situation morally contradictory it is also a highly convenient excuse to hide behind the icky factor.
    When did I ever mention being grossed out by the idea as an argument against it?

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    Intelligence in application to this situation would refer to their ability to understand the situation.
    If the dog did not understand the situation I guess I'm unsure about how they manage to know how to have sex?

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    You have yet to show how it is logically flawed. Both are beings who are under current assumptions thought to have lower intelligence than the average adult human. For this reason neither can provide consent.
    It is logically flawed because they are two different issues and have no correlation between each other. Children are not sexually mature (physically/emotionally) and I am talking about dogs that are sexually mature.

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    Body language exists of course, but we can interpret human body language along with other forms of language. This allows us to interpret it on its own. We can not do this with animals.
    False. I think you should read the miles of ink dedicated to the study of animal behaviorisms/psychology/body language. Human beings can interpret a lot of animal body language, especially dogs/horses. Vets are largely successful in their work because they can read body language. Many novice horse riders injure themselves because they fail to understand the body language of horses...

    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    As for the mute besides body language I already mentioned sign language and writing. If a person had no route left expect body language to communicate I would consider sex with them to be questionable as body language can not always be straightforward.
    Only a virgin would confuse such a situation I think when a sexually mature dog becomes erect and mounts you while you're on all fours, it is a very clear thing that he wants to have sex. There is no need for him to be able to say yes verbally, even if he could.



    Quote Originally Posted by YamiB. View Post
    If by health product you mean medicine, then yes there is need. And animal testing is an integral part of that.
    I realized my mistake here, you're right, but only to an extent (and I guess I'm wrong only to the extent). Alternatives to animal testing are happening all the time especially with developments with ZEBET.
    Last edited by dogssup; April 7th, 2008 at 08:56 PM. Reason: spelling

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    Actually, dogs have the cognitive abilities of a 2-3 year old child.
    http://encarta.msn.com/encnet/Featur...nddogsdogthink
    If this is the case, then a person having sex with a dog would be much the same as that person having sex with a three year old child.
    Sparkling angel I believe, you were my savior in my time of need. Blinded by faith I couldn't hear. All the whispers, the warnings so clear. I see the angels, I'll lead them to your door. There's no escape now, no mercy no more. No remorse cause I still remember

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by SarahConnor View Post
    If this is the case, then a person having sex with a dog would be much the same as that person having sex with a three year old child.
    That is just a relative number which absolutely gives no indication of the sexually maturity of the subjects involved. A 3 year old dog is able to have sex (read: physically and mentally able to) while a 3 year old child clearly does not have this ability. Again I have to ask, how did we come to the conclusion that intelligence is a requirement before consensual sex? Sex which produces pleasure is an inherent desire in animals.

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    That is terribly disgusting and I sincerely urge you to get professional help if you are a zoophile. Unlike homosexuality, that is still recognized as a mental disorder.

    That said, whether or not screwing your dog is necessarily animal cruelty, the laws against it are mostly just to preserve general moral decency.

    As for the case law, Lawrence v. Texas struck down anti-homosexual sodomy laws, but other state sodomy laws still are held to apply, such as Muth v. Frank which held that Lawrence does not apply to anti-consensual incest laws.

    The current status seems to be that state anti-bestiality sodomy laws are constitutional. Hopefully the Supreme Court does not continue down its road of trampling the public ethical consensus and declare it a right to sodomize an animal in the name of the 14th Amendment. Such a supposed liberty could not be further from the founders' intentions.

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    That is terribly disgusting and I sincerely urge you to get professional help if you are a zoophile. Unlike homosexuality, that is still recognized as a mental disorder.
    Professional help? There is a lot of evidence by psychologists that zoophilia may indeed be another sexual orientation. Would you like a book list? Here we go:

    (1) Andrea Beetz Ph.D.: Bestiality and Zoophilia (2005)
    (2) Professors Colin J. Williams and Martin S. Weinberg: Zoophilia in Men: a study of sexual interest in animals in: Archives of sexual behavior, Vol. 32, No.6, December 2003, pp. 523-535
    (3) Hani Miletski Ph.D.: Bestiality - Zoophilia: An exploratory study, Diss., The Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. - San Francisco, CA, October 1999
    (4) Hani Miletski Ph.D.: Understanding Bestiality and Zoophilia, 2002
    (5) Lindzey, A. "On Zoophilia". The Animals' Agenda, Westport: May/Jun 2000. Vol. 20, Iss. 3; p. 29.

    Also the DSM-IV (manual for how mental disorders are diagnosed) lists zoophilia as a paraphilia. I just wanted to clarify that because people often have the conception when they hear "mental disorder" to think schizophrenia or a sociopath which zoophilia is none of these things. In addition, the DSM-IV is not the most unbiased source to judge if something should be classified as a mental illness or not. Homosexuality was listed as a mental illness for the longest time. There is a lot of things going 'round that would suggest the DSM-IV is corrupt at best and therefore can't be really trusted. From personal experience, I have told a psychologist about my sexual attraction. They found it interesting and we eventually became friends years after the professional relationship had ended. The point I'm making here is there is NO clear consensus in the mental health community about zoophilia, you will find antis and supporters on both sides.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    That said, whether or not screwing your dog is necessarily animal cruelty, the laws against it are mostly just to preserve general moral decency.
    Oh because we know governments are not full of arbitrary laws. What exactly do you mean, and how to you judge, "moral decency"? I guess you're a Miller fan. I didn't think I needed to mention that just because something is illegal doesn't equate that thing with being right/wrong.

  20. #20
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by dogssup
    Professional help? There is a lot of evidence by psychologists that zoophilia may indeed be another sexual orientation. Would you like a book list? Here we go:

    (1) Andrea Beetz Ph.D.: Bestiality and Zoophilia (2005)
    (2) Professors Colin J. Williams and Martin S. Weinberg: Zoophilia in Men: a study of sexual interest in animals in: Archives of sexual behavior, Vol. 32, No.6, December 2003, pp. 523-535
    (3) Hani Miletski Ph.D.: Bestiality - Zoophilia: An exploratory study, Diss., The Institute for Advanced Study of Human Sexuality. - San Francisco, CA, October 1999
    (4) Hani Miletski Ph.D.: Understanding Bestiality and Zoophilia, 2002
    (5) Lindzey, A. "On Zoophilia". The Animals' Agenda, Westport: May/Jun 2000. Vol. 20, Iss. 3; p. 29.
    Appeal to authority.

    Having a Ph.D. does not mean what these individuals say is correct or that their opinion is at all supported by the consensus of the field. You can find Ph.D.s in Biology who adamantly deny evolution and that is an issue considered resolved amongst Biologists.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

 

 
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