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  1. #261
    sailornaruto39
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    I find this interesting. I'm not a zoophile,but certainly I don't believe judging people for their sexual practices. I also have an allegiance to logic and valid reasoning.

    I find the hypocrisy and special pleading in this debate laughable. All arguments used here are almost verbatim to those against homosexuality.

    I find the whole consent part most laughable. Animals are animals they are essentially lower than us we don't need their consent for anything because they are just animals. We eat them, abuse them for entertainment (dog shows,rodeo) we kill them for fur, but then suddenly sex with them is what really harms them? Unless you're a vegan the OP is right, all these arguments are really just cover-ups for the "ew" factor.

    Possible harm
    STD
    In compatible biology

    All arguments against gay/anal sex.

    I see having sex with an animal pet as just another casual form of expressing affection.

  2. #262
    alexisjm1
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Zoophilia is a paraphilia, thus those who have it should seek psychological help/

  3. #263
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Dogssup has made real valid points and are factual instead of opinion or emotional. I am one who is sexually attracted to horses and my love for them is not limited to sex. I would not tie up a horse, or bribe with treats. I do not have an equine lover and so my experiences have been repeated visits to a nearby horse farm and once there I only look for two certain horses. The 2 horses are 1 mare and 1 gelding. The gelding chose me and the mare accepted me. Now about consent. during my visits there is no way for me to force them to do anything and if I did try to get forceful with 1500 lbs of equine beauty.....well they got 4 hooves and lots of muscle and not to mention teeth and the ability to run away.

    I can tell you that it is a false assumption that beastiality and zoophilia are the same, the former care nothing about animals whereas the former adore them.

    I will attest to the fact and it is factual as experienced by me, horses can experience sexual pleasure and desire it from human lovers. I have had these two horses drive off other horses in the field when they tried to get close to me and I had no treats on me. I will not go into my experiences here as this topic is about consent only.I WILL say it is a narrow minded thing to say people like me are sick and or icky. people who dont understand us are quite quick to judge and condemn. I want to say to anyone out there of a like mind with me, please have your intimate moments with your animal lover in private so as to avoid the aforementioned condemnation.

  4. #264
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Hi Trentons Pride, welcome to ODN.

    Can you give us some insight, what actions did the mare and gelding take that you took as consent? How do you know those actions were consent?
    "Suffering lies not with inequality, but with dependence." -Voltaire
    "Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.” -G.K. Chesterton
    Also, if you think I've overlooked your post please shoot me a PM, I'm not intentionally ignoring you.


  5. #265
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Squatch347 View Post
    Hi Trentons Pride, welcome to ODN.

    Can you give us some insight, what actions did the mare and gelding take that you took as consent? How do you know those actions were consent?
    I'm not Trentons Pride (but I do like the Racing Stripes reference more on this in a bit), but I think I can answer that question.
    Mares can show consent by "winking" their "mare parts" in front of either another horse or a human, and standing still. I've personally known some mares (by volunteering at stables) that don't care much for grooming (in a field) but would run up to me and stamp their hooves on the ground when their in heat because they want attention from me, which I gave by stroking their bodies, nibbling on their face and letting them nibble on mine (not the best horsemanship advice because what happens if the horse "nibbles" on a child: lawsuit) sometimes licking the sweat off their muscular chests.....
    As for geldings some might respond to the smell of mares in heat, but if a gelding does not want the attention it will retract his "male parts" further inside the sheath.
    Horses that object to things will pull back their ears, try to kick ect (like when tightening the girth).

    As for Zebras sometimes I would drive a long distance just to go to a fair where their was a petting zoo with a zebra, pet the zebra (and get really aroused), and drive back home (I don't think I would drive a few blocks to rent Racing Stripes from the library, terrible reviews)
    Wolves are also nice and I also have traveled hundreds of miles to have the opportunity to meet a pack of wolves up close (including being jumped on) at a wolf education center.
    Last edited by HoofingIt; December 9th, 2014 at 01:35 PM. Reason: Clarification of Wolves

  6. #266
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    dogssup,
    I will answer this question with another question:

    Suppose a 12 year old boy, who happened to be sexually mature, propositioned you to have sex with him, and you found him attractive.
    Would you have sex with him?

    He meets all the requirements:
    ~He is physically mature and capable of having sex.
    ~He would enjoy sex.
    ~He initiated sex with you.
    I would say no because it is a human child.

    ---------- Post added at 02:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ----------

    Woops sorry for not saying hello first.
    I have been reading the debate which is very good.
    Respectful with intelligent posts coming from both sides.
    If you guys don't mind I would like to give my 25˘
    On some.
    I have had this same debate on another site and let's just say it was less than friendly, just because I decided to take an objective view on a post that was already up.
    So I hope I'm not being to much of an inconvenience and would love to know what you both think.

    ---------- Post added at 02:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:04 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post

    With a couple of exceptions, among some species of non-human primates, animals do not have sex for fun.
    .
    Not true,
    "A male sea otter was observed holding a female sea otter underwater until she drowned, and then repeatedly copulating with her carcass. Several months later, the same sea otter was again observed copulating with the carcass of a different female."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necr...#Other_animals

    ---------- Post added at 02:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post

    With a couple of exceptions, among some species of non-human primates, animals do not have sex for fun.
    .
    Not true,
    "A male sea otter was observed holding a female sea otter underwater until she drowned, and then repeatedly copulating with her carcass. Several months later, the same sea otter was again observed copulating with the carcass of a different female."

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necr...#Other_animals

  7. #267
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Well, this definitely has got the "ewwww" factor goin on at first glance

    However, it reminds me of the getting louder debate about sex with robots. You can do anything you want to a robot unless you want to have an orgasm on/in it. A vibrator, oh that's great. It can look like a penis no worries. But if it resembles a complete human and can "talk", suddenly it has "rights", but only as they pertain to sex. You can still use it as slave labor, "kill" it, or anything else, as long as an orgasm is not involved...

    Make it clean your house, cook dinner, walk the dog, work non stop in a factory, nooooo issues.

    Have "sex" with it, oh my god, that bot has rights!!! You "raped" it!

  8. #268
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Scarlett44 View Post
    Let me rephrase the statement, as a pedophile would say it:

    To use the child as a sexual object would mean the human doesn't take into concern the childs sexual needs. Obviously this can happen just like any other sexual relationship.
    But your argument falls flat when there are many pedophiles who ONLY give children oral sex and don't receive anything in return.
    Your taking what applies to a human child, to an adult dog.
    This again falls flat lol.[COLOR="Silver"]

  9. #269
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Well, this definitely has got the "ewwww" factor goin on at first glance

    However, it reminds me of the getting louder debate about sex with robots. You can do anything you want to a robot unless you want to have an orgasm on/in it. A vibrator, oh that's great. It can look like a penis no worries. But if it resembles a complete human and can "talk", suddenly it has "rights", but only as they pertain to sex. You can still use it as slave labor, "kill" it, or anything else, as long as an orgasm is not involved...

    Make it clean your house, cook dinner, walk the dog, work non stop in a factory, nooooo issues.

    Have "sex" with it, oh my god, that bot has rights!!! You "raped" it!
    I've never heard anyone make that argument. I don't think anyone has seriously forwarded that robots should have rights.

    But this issue does raise the off-topic side debate of when machines and AI should be granted legal rights. If we create androids or robots that are significantly advanced, when should they be granted rights (think sic-fi scenarios like Blade Runner, AI, or Data from Star Trek).
    Last edited by mican333; August 22nd, 2017 at 08:31 AM.

  10. #270
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I've never heard anyone make that argument. I don't think anyone has seriously forwarded that robots should have rights.
    Really???? This is quite hard to believe...

    Robot "rights" in general, but "sexual" rights as well are becoming a big conversation.


    http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/news...04-gxpsl3.html

    http://www.robotshop.com/blog/en/sho...l-rights-17333

    https://www.quora.com/Should-the-sex...earn-to-say-no


    A quick search and you will find all kinda people, all kinda upset, because a "person" (read man) might have sex with said robot, and how everyone should be upset by this thought!

    Though I hear people wine about the robot not getting a say in if it has sex, I haven't heard much about the "feelings" of the robot if it was used for killing someone. I hear "robots should not have the power to decide to kill on their own decision", but out of fear for human life, not because it would do "harm emotionally/physically" to the robot.

    But if you did "rape" a robot, would it care, (if it wasn't programmed to)?

    Unless we are going to say humans actually created a "new, actual life form", it really is just a machine like your coffee pot or your "cell PHONE" (I know people that swear they actually "love" their cell phone more than any human). You can't (yet anyway) program a robot to "like" nor "dislike" being raped because it isn't alive.

    But then the definition of life becomes suspect. Are virus' alive? They act, and "replicate" (and probably aided evolution in myriad ways...).

    How about motor proteins? They keep us alive. They "walk", perform tasks.
    Are they "alive".
    Do they have "rights"? Should they?

    ---------- Post added at 05:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    But this issue does raise the off-topic side debate of when machines and AI should be granted legal rights. If we create androids or robots that are significantly advanced, when should they be granted rights (think sic-fi scenarios like Blade Runner, AI, or Data from Star Trek).

    Why do you see this as a side issue? This makes zero sense to me???

  11. #271
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Really???? This is quite hard to believe...

    Robot "rights" in general, but "sexual" rights as well are becoming a big conversation.
    I find that hard to believe. The notion that machines have rights is pretty nonsensical. You can probably find an example of anyone making a dumb argument but I very much doubt that a significant number of people are forwarding that machines should be granted rights.

    Can you show me someone seriously arguing for machine rights? None of your links present such an argument (although I couldn't open the second link).


    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    A quick search and you will find all kinda people, all kinda upset, because a "person" (read man) might have sex with said robot, and how everyone should be upset by this thought!
    I did a quick search and didn't find anyone arguing that machines have rights and therefore should not be sexually exploited. Any article about granting machines rights were futuristic ("IF machines advance enough in the future, should they have rights?") and no serious suggestion that today's machines should have rights.



    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Though I hear people wine about the robot not getting a say in if it has sex, I haven't heard much about the "feelings" of the robot if it was used for killing someone. I hear "robots should not have the power to decide to kill on their own decision", but out of fear for human life, not because it would do "harm emotionally/physically" to the robot.
    That is a really dumb argument (what "they" are saying, not what you are saying). It's pretty common knowledge that machines can't think and therefore can't care what they do or are done to them.

    This argument is so dumb, it's a non-argument. And I really doubt that people in any significant number are arguing this. Can you show me an example of someone arguing that?




    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Why do you see this as a side issue?
    Because this thread is not about machine rights. But then any debating here is a good thing so it's fine if this isn't exactly on-topic.

    And again, there is no serious significant suggestion that machines, as they are now, should be granted any legal rights.

    But in the future, that might change. One of the major factors in determining if one should have rights is if one wants rights. A toaster obviously doesn't want rights - it can't even think. The same goes for sex robots as they would exist today. But if a machine is developed enough to ask for rights, then the question of whether we should grant it rights becomes a valid question.

    That notion is reflected in the movie AI (I assume you've seen it), when David, the android, is captured and sent to a fair where robots are destroyed for public amusement. When David is put in the cage to be destroyed, he begs for his life. When the crowd hears him pleading for his life, they don't want him destroyed. The fact that David doesn't want to be destroyed makes the crowd feel that it's wrong to kill him. So this is a point where people will start to feel that machines should perhaps be treated as other beings how have rights.

    Likewise if a machine doesn't want to have sex (as in it can conceive of sexual activity and decide to not engage in it), then the notion of raping a machine becomes valid. But as it is now, one would have to really not understand something about machines to think that consent is an issue for machines nowadays.

  12. #272
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    I did a quick search and didn't find anyone arguing that machines have rights and therefore should not be sexually exploited. Any article about granting machines rights were futuristic ("IF machines advance enough in the future, should they have rights?") and no serious suggestion that today's machines should have rights.
    I guess I was unclear...cause I didn't say there were daily news stories on CNN or anything or that anyone is calling for a vibrator (or any other machine "as they are now") to have rights.



    I meant sex bot's are becoming more human like all the time. Of course in the future, bots will be even more "life like".

    My point was, it is a bigger deal to "people" (it seems to me) that a bot be used for sex, than any other purpose. Or if a bot resembled a child/adolescent (or I guess probably animal if it had "sex organs").

    Kinda like:
    it's ok to house an animal in an enclosure so small it can't walk around. or so many animals packed in such a small area that antibiotics a necessary, just until it's old enough to eat. Then kill it and eat it.
    But have sex with it, wow that is "cruel to the animal".

    (I have to take a moment to say, talking about sex with animals is creeping me out. I see no issues with the robot, if one wanted to though)

    ---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Because this thread is not about machine rights. But then any debating here is a good thing so it's fine if this isn't exactly on-topic.
    I meant, you seemed to be separating a robot used for sex, from one used for any other purpose

  13. #273
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I guess I was unclear...cause I didn't say there were daily news stories on CNN or anything or that anyone is calling for a vibrator (or any other machine "as they are now") to have rights.
    And I don't see anyone calling for sex robots to have rights.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    I meant sex bot's are becoming more human like all the time. Of course in the future, bots will be even more "life like".
    I think in the future this probably will become an issue but then when robots/AI become advanced enough to the point where the notion that they should have rights comes up, there probably won't be a separation between a robots right to refuse to have sex versus a robot's right for self-determination in other regards (such as refusing to perform other tasks).

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    My point was, it is a bigger deal to "people" (it seems to me) that a bot be used for sex, than any other purpose.
    But you have not supported this position. I've seen no evidence that a significant number of people are concerned about this.

    Some people might find the concept icky or feel that it's bad for humanity for people to have sex robots (decreases human interaction and procreation) but I've never heard anyone argue that it's wrong because machines have the right to not be used sexually. Arguing for sex robot rights in this day and age is pretty much the same as arguing for vibrator rights - it's pretty much a nonsensical argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Or if a bot resembled a child/adolescent (or I guess probably animal if it had "sex organs").
    Robots and animals are two different things. People do generally object to sex with animals out of concern for the animal.

    And the issues with a child sex robot is approximately the same as an adult sex robot. The objection to a child sex robot is either based on it being "icky" (and most would agree that it's quite icky) or that it will have a detrimental effect on people (like it might encourage pedophilia and lead to greater harm to actual children).

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Kinda like:
    it's ok to house an animal in an enclosure so small it can't walk around. or so many animals packed in such a small area that antibiotics a necessary, just until it's old enough to eat. Then kill it and eat it.
    But have sex with it, wow that is "cruel to the animal".
    But there is a difference between killing an animal for food and abusing it. People are also against animal torture - even if the animal is eventually going to be killed and eaten.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    (I have to take a moment to say, talking about sex with animals is creeping me out. I see no issues with the robot, if one wanted to though)
    And pretty much everyone agrees with you.

    Again, this supposed objection to sex with robots out of concern for their rights doesn't seem to apply nowadays (although it might in the future).

  14. #274
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    Again, this supposed objection to sex with robots out of concern for their rights doesn't seem to apply nowadays (although it might in the future).
    Well, looks like we pretty much agree on bots.

    How do you feel about people having sex with other animals?
    I have read there are farms in Germany doing this for profit, for instance.

  15. #275
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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by dogssup View Post
    One of the main attacks against bestiality/zoophilia is the issue of consent. These arguments take shape into something like this: "having sex with a dog is wrong because the dog can't say no". Through logic I will show that these arguments by anti-zoos hold no logical reasoning at all, and in fact the consent issue is generally a smoke screen for the icky factor. I will show here that animals can, and do show sexual consent with a human.

    Before I can effectively show that animals do have the ability to consent for sex, I need to define exactly how I am using consent:

    –verb (used without object)
    1. to permit, approve, or agree; comply or yield (often fol. by to or an infinitive): He consented to the proposal. We asked her permission, and she consented.
    2. Archaic. to agree in sentiment, opinion, etc.; be in harmony.


    Animals are sentient beings just like humans, that is they have the power of perception and a consciousness. An animal experiences pleasure and pain. A person who owns a dog knows if what they do causes pleasure or pain. When we scratch a dogs head we can tell the dog enjoys this, he may roll on his back and let you rub his stomach. Likewise, hitting the dog in the head with a shoe causes pain and the dog will shy away and be fearful in the future.

    Animals can not verbally say yes or no to sex in our human languages but they have other ways to show how they feel. Surely a dog who has mounted, say his human lover, experiences pleasure. This is evident because of his orgasm. Female dogs have orgasms too. Once a dog for example realizes you as a sexual being, they show sexual desire quite often: females will sway their tales revealing their swollen vagina's and dry hump the air in front of you, males will become erect and try to mount.

    Anyone who is zoo will be aware of when their animals want sex. More importantly, they will respect their animal partner when they do not want sex. Sometimes when you rub your partner down there they will pull away and sit elsewhere. That is how animals show they are either interested or not.

    If an animal does not enjoy what is happening to them they will show bodily signs of this: they will tense up, their eyes and ears will move, tails might jitter, and they will pull away. If you continue it could bring painful results: Dogs have powerful teeth and will bite you! Horses can break bones (or worse) with a single kick. Quite simply, it is obvious to see what causes pleasure and pain.

    As I said before, the consent issue is really a smoke screen for the icky factor. By and large people are disgusted about the idea so they claim consent is a big issue when in fact it is not. People do many awful things to animals who do not consent to what is being done:

    (1) Do animals consent to locking them in a cage?
    (2) Do animals consent to being slaughtered and killed in the millions every year for food?
    (3) Do animals consent to being tested on by chemicals?
    (4) Do animals consent to being 'fixed'?

    If you did any of those four things to a human you would be thrown in jail for life (possibly killed in many US states). Not so ironically though, doing those things to animals is okay. It is accepted and happens everyday.

    But as soon as you have loving sex with your dog who you care for more than anything in the world, somehow you are a sick and awful human being.

    Ironic?
    Actually, animals don't consent...they submit. There is a difference. Think of it this way:

    If you have a slave, and you order them to have sex, are they consenting even if they don't want to participate?

    If a woman allows herself to be raped in order to avoid violence, is she consenting?

    Most animals don't consider sex the same way that humans do. For most animals, it is procreation or dominance. And as pointed out earlier in the thread, most animals do not have the cognitive ability to give consent for sex.


    In conclusion, no, an animal cannot consent to sexual acts with a human.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    Actually, animals don't consent...they submit. There is a difference.
    Forgive my expediency instead of eloquence in this post. I want to respond to a few comments but only have a couple minutes at the moment...

    What if a woman spread peanut butter on her lady parts to get her pet dog (male or female) to perform oral sex on her?
    Was her dog "injured" or subjected to" mental issues" because of the encounter?

    If animals are unable to "cognitively give consent" what is the problem anyway (other than the ewwww factor....) if the animal is not hurt?

    I believe you are definitely correct some animals (if not most or nearly all) look at sex quite differently than humans, though I a m not sure that all animals qualify......
    Last edited by Belthazor; January 28th, 2018 at 08:47 PM.

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    Forgive my expediency instead of eloquence in this post. I want to respond to a few comments but only have a couple minutes at the moment...

    What if a woman spread peanut butter on her lady parts to get her pet dog (male or female) to perform oral sex on her?
    Was her dog "injured" or subjected to" mental issues" because of the encounter?

    If animals are unable to "cognitively give consent" what is the problem anyway (other than the ewwww factor....) if the animal is not hurt?

    I believe you are definitely correct some animals (if not most or nearly all) look at sex quite differently than humans, though I a m not sure that all animals qualify......
    Putting aside the "ewwww" factor is quite difficult, but I see your point. As far as we can tell, an animal would not be "victimized" in the same way. But how can we be certain? We can't effectively communicate with animals to ascertain whether or not it is doing harm psychologically.

    Spreading peanut butter on the lady parts (ewww) implies coercion, does it not? It suggests that the dog will not do it otherwise. And the dog would not be licking to pleasure the woman but to get the peanut butter. That is not consenting to sex.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by ladykrimson View Post
    Putting aside the "ewwww" factor is quite difficult, but I see your point. As far as we can tell, an animal would not be "victimized" in the same way. But how can we be certain? We can't effectively communicate with animals to ascertain whether or not it is doing harm psychologically.

    Spreading peanut butter on the lady parts (ewww) implies coercion, does it not? It suggests that the dog will not do it otherwise. And the dog would not be licking to pleasure the woman but to get the peanut butter. That is not consenting to sex.
    You have a point. Well it implies when the woman is ready to go and added incentive for the dog. I don't think it qualifies as coercion.
    Let's try another I guess since my point isn't clear I guess.

    Male dogs will mount a or accept oral sex from a woman without anything other than her "offering herself". I'm fairly sure that is why a lot of dogs will walk up behind a woman and stuff his nose in her "area".

    I don't think most animals could possibly be "victimized" like a human. They don't have many of the parts a human brain does. How could they "think" in the same way.

    Most animals focus on life/death. Sex and what it "means", probably not so much?
    I used to have ducks living on my property. When they mate the male bites the back of the females neck and holds her head under water till she sticks her butt in the air and "gives in". I have seen it dozens of times over the yrs (they all squawk like crazy during the encounter, sounds like a predator is attacking) and have never seen them do it any other way...

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    Re: Animals *can* consent to sex

    Quote Originally Posted by Belthazor View Post
    You have a point. Well it implies when the woman is ready to go and added incentive for the dog. I don't think it qualifies as coercion.
    Let's try another I guess since my point isn't clear I guess.

    Male dogs will mount a or accept oral sex from a woman without anything other than her "offering herself". I'm fairly sure that is why a lot of dogs will walk up behind a woman and stuff his nose in her "area".

    I don't think most animals could possibly be "victimized" like a human. They don't have many of the parts a human brain does. How could they "think" in the same way.

    Most animals focus on life/death. Sex and what it "means", probably not so much?
    I used to have ducks living on my property. When they mate the male bites the back of the females neck and holds her head under water till she sticks her butt in the air and "gives in". I have seen it dozens of times over the yrs (they all squawk like crazy during the encounter, sounds like a predator is attacking) and have never seen them do it any other way...
    Again, I do see your point, but you actually made my point for me. (Most animals focus on life/death. Sex and what it "means", probably not so much?). Because dogs only have the cognitive state of a toddler, they cannot "consent" to sex. Feeling good does not equal consent.
    It is not our abilities in life that show who we truly are; it is our choices. Albus Dumbledore in Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets

 

 
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