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  1. #1
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    Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Check this out:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1208...googlenews_wsj

    Apparently the 3 candidates, who have had more debates than I've had hours of sleep this month, are declining to participate in a debate to speak about their views on science???

    Seriously, WTF???

    I no longer wonder why the people I work with have no idea what a black hole is, and resist the temptation to tell them to look between their ears when the subject comes up.

    I no longer wonder why so many people believe that dinosaurs and man dwelt together in some mythological land of long ago.

    I no longer wonder why people are just so damn stupid.

    SIGH

    I know they are politicians, but is there anyone out there who doesn't believe these issues are important?
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  2. #2
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    I know they are politicians, but is there anyone out there who doesn't believe these issues are important?
    There are many important issues that are completely irrelevant to whether a politician will make a good executive, Slip.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  3. #3
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Just look at the leadership we have elected. No science advisor in the White House? Are you kidding me? Bush is a scientific illiterate besides being a military imbecile. No wonder our scientific establishment is collapsing with that kind of leadership. Our high schools produce graduates, when they actually produce graduates, who know no more than Bush or Cheny. No wonder such ideas as creationism and ID are so popular. Belief in such concepts are the halmark of ignorance of science.
    From The Treaty of Tripoli, Art. 11, negociated under Washington, passed unanimously by the senate, and signed by Adams -- "As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion;"

  4. #4
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Just look at the leadership we have elected. No science advisor in the White House? Are you kidding me? Bush is a scientific illiterate besides being a military imbecile. No wonder our scientific establishment is collapsing with that kind of leadership. Our high schools produce graduates, when they actually produce graduates, who know no more than Bush or Cheny. No wonder such ideas as creationism and ID are so popular. Belief in such concepts are the halmark of ignorance of science.
    Why would the White House need a science advisor in the cabinet? Are matters of science commonly important enough to involve the state?

    As to Bush's military imbecility, I cannot testify, not being an expert in the field. Perhaps you would care to expound on your analysis?

    Why don't you go have a science debate with chad before you claim that being a Creationist or believing in ID implies scientific ignorance, eh? If you're going to critique someone's understanding of science, you should actually examine it, not attempt to dismiss it because of theological differences.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  5. #5
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish View Post
    Apparently the 3 candidates, who have had more debates than I've had hours of sleep this month, are declining to participate in a debate to speak about their views on science???
    Why exactly is it important for the president to have expertise in science? He has something called a Cabinet, you know, which is full of experts in particular areas. I agree that the American education system is flawed, but I have never seen any evidence that the general American public is any more ignorant of academic knowledge than the general Western public. People in capitalist countries tend to focus only on that knowledge or skills which will increase their earnings.

  6. #6
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    The scientific community has been calling for this for a long time. Nature and Science have been filled with articles on the issue.

    Science is an issue vital to our economy, our security, our health, and our standing in the world. What we need is clear understanding of where the politicians stand on policy issues of science. Funding to NIH, NSF, and other orgs that fund research are has been stagnant for years under th Bush administration. The result of this policy is now Science is reaching dire straits. Funding is simply non-existent for many top researchers and for a new researcher starting out....hah!

    The government provides the bulk of all basic research, without basic research applied research and all its benefits stops.

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive
    Why don't you go have a science debate with chad before you claim that being a Creationist or believing in ID implies scientific ignorance, eh?
    ???? I believe in neither.
    Why would the White House need a science advisor in the cabinet? Are matters of science commonly important enough to involve the state?
    1) Education issues
    2) Government is largest funder of basic research.
    3) NASA
    4) Security and Military research
    5) Stem Cells


    You know, it kind of helps to have somebody who actually knows what they are talking about when major policy issues like those I just listed come up.
    Quote Originally Posted by KB
    Why exactly is it important for the president to have expertise in science?
    Its not and the purpose of the debate was not "expertise in science" but their policy towards issues that affect science.

    You know, like funding research, funding education, education in general, ethics of research, that sort of thing.

    One doesn't have to be an expert to state and debate their policies. I dont expect a prez to know how to clone a gene, I do expect a prez to at least understand the import of science and have a clearly stated policy towards it.

    Now I dont think thats too much to ask.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  7. #7
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    ???? I believe in neither.
    Huh. I had thought you affirmed at least that God created the universe--albeit not in six twenty-four hour periods, and certainly not by exhaling onto dust--which coupled with omniscience sort of implies ID.

    Quote Originally Posted by chad
    1) Education issues
    2) Government is largest funder of basic research.
    3) NASA
    4) Security and Military research
    5) Stem Cells


    You know, it kind of helps to have somebody who actually knows what they are talking about when major policy issues like those I just listed come up.
    There are already government departments for most of these. Is your problem that the President needs to select someone who will be able to tell him who to select for the positions already in place--NASA, secretary of education, etc. Doesn't that already assume that he can select people who know what they're talking about?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

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  8. #8
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive
    Huh. I had thought you affirmed at least that God created the universe--albeit not in six twenty-four hour periods, and certainly not by exhaling onto dust--which coupled with omniscience sort of implies ID.
    I do believe as much and believe that His hand guides creation. But herein lies the issue. There is a movement known as the ID movement and that movement (or at least most of their adherents) are against evolution. So while we have considerable overlap, I will not claim ID because that has come to mean something more than the mere idea of a Creator at work.
    There are already government departments for most of these. Is your problem that the President needs to select someone who will be able to tell him who to select for the positions already in place--NASA, secretary of education, etc. Doesn't that already assume that he can select people who know what they're talking about?
    There are government agencies for everything under the sun and the Prez has advisors for all of them. Why not then a Science advisor for those issues as well?
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  9. #9
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737
    There are government agencies for everything under the sun and the Prez has advisors for all of them. Why not then a Science advisor for those issues as well?
    Because it's redundant. It's like saying we need an Economics advisor, even though we already have the secretary of the Treasury. We have NASA, we have government scientists, the President is briefed by knowledgeable people. I just don't see the importance of creating a position in the Cabinet for the sake of appearance.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  10. #10
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive
    Because it's redundant. It's like saying we need an Economics advisor, even though we already have the secretary of the Treasury. We have NASA, we have government scientists, the President is briefed by knowledgeable people. I just don't see the importance of creating a position in the Cabinet for the sake of appearance.
    But we DO have an Economics advisor...in fact we have several:

    Edward P. Lazear is Chairman of the Council of Economic Advisers (CEA). There are 2 positions on the council currently vacant. The CEA was established by the Employment Act of 1946 to provide the President with objective economic analysis and advice on the development and implementation of a wide range of domestic and international economic policy issues.


    http://www.whitehouse.gov/cea/

    The NASA chief also has his own agendas, as does the head of the NIH, the NSF, so on and so forth.


    Furthermore, its not just NASA that deals with Science, its the USDA, the DOE, the DOD, etc, etc. Each one of these groups has what they consider the most important and for whose job it is to ensure the success of their mandate.

    Besides that, they all have their jobs to deal with. You can't be calling up a man who is busy with research or managing to advise you and research every scientific issue.

    There are experts in all fields, some better than others. It is far better to have a dedicated individual who can knows who to ask and where to get the answers. That sort of research in itself is no easy task.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  11. #11
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by chad
    Furthermore, its not just NASA that deals with Science, its the USDA, the DOE, the DOD, etc, etc. Each one of these groups has what they consider the most important and for whose job it is to ensure the success of their mandate.

    Besides that, they all have their jobs to deal with. You can't be calling up a man who is busy with research or managing to advise you and research every scientific issue.

    There are experts in all fields, some better than others. It is far better to have a dedicated individual who can knows who to ask and where to get the answers. That sort of research in itself is no easy task.
    If NASA wants something, they will essentially send a request, no? And they will explain the necessity of fulfilling it, right?

    If this is about directing money where it should go, then the people who need more scientific counsel are the Congressmen who will vote on the bill. The President has many experts on all sides giving him advice; adding another voice to the mix--one whose sole job is to give his own opinion--will be much less helpful, wouldn't you say, then providing an expert opinion for the people who will actually decide where the money goes.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

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  12. #12
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by CLive
    If this is about directing money where it should go, then the people who need more scientific counsel are the Congressmen who will vote on the bill. The President has many experts on all sides giving him advice; adding another voice to the mix--one whose sole job is to give his own opinion--will be much less helpful, wouldn't you say, then providing an expert opinion for the people who will actually decide where the money goes.
    And when the NASA chief sends up a proposal and the prez needs help even understanding what it entails and objective advise on if its even feasible, then who is he going to turn to? His economics advisors?

    Prez: Ah, hey Bob with your Ph.D. in Economics, can you tell me how feasible this proposed mission to the moon from the NASA Chief is?

    Economics advisor: Certainly Mr. President, hmmm flying to the moon eh? Well if we flew to the moon we would have an everlasting supply of cheese, that sounds good, but wouldnt the man in the moon get mad?
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  13. #13
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by chad
    And when the NASA chief sends up a proposal and the prez needs help even understanding what it entails and objective advise on if its even feasible, then who is he going to turn to? His economics advisors?

    Prez: Ah, hey Bob with your Ph.D. in Economics, can you tell me how feasible this proposed mission to the moon from the NASA Chief is?

    Economics advisor: Certainly Mr. President, hmmm flying to the moon eh? Well if we flew to the moon we would have an everlasting supply of cheese, that sounds good, but wouldnt the man in the moon get mad?
    The part that I really object to is the notion that the President can be trusted to select a competent, effective secretary of Science but not a competent, effective NASA chief.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

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  14. #14
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Clive
    The part that I really object to is the notion that the President can be trusted to select a competent, effective secretary of Science but not a competent, effective NASA chief.
    Who says he cant? The problem is that the NASA chief has an agency to run. He cant be a full time adviser.

    Furthermore, we're not talking about a Secretary of Science, just an adviser. We have a Treasury Secretary and Economics Advisers simultaneously. Its ridiculous that we cant have a Science adviser, especially when most people (including presidents) havent had anything more than HS science classes.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  15. #15
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737
    Who says he cant? The problem is that the NASA chief has an agency to run. He cant be a full time adviser.

    Furthermore, we're not talking about a Secretary of Science, just an adviser. We have a Treasury Secretary and Economics Advisers simultaneously. Its ridiculous that we cant have a Science adviser, especially when most people (including presidents) havent had anything more than HS science classes.
    Should he have a math adviser, as well? A linguistics adviser, perhaps? An official theology adviser, too?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  16. #16
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    There are many important issues that are completely irrelevant to whether a politician will make a good executive, Slip.
    I agree with your sentiment Clive, but damn. Don't you think it's time we had someone in office with more than a rudimentary understanding of science? Bush is certainly not that person, if the stories one hears about his beliefs are true...

    Why aren't any of these three people worried about these things? Do they not understand that it might very well be science that stops the energy crunch? That will cure cancer, etc,. etc., etc...???

    I'm not saying NOT being a theoretical physcist is necessary, but it seems to me that appointing a science advisor, and funding some things directly wouldn't be a bad move...

    Perhaps the debate needs to cover those things.

    What would be the harm in having some money used for science?


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Why exactly is it important for the president to have expertise in science?
    The US government spends literally billions/trillions of dollars a year on "stuff." I think having a panel of advisors who could look at things like alternative energy sources, space exploration, AIDs cures, and so on, would be a benefit to someone in a position to actually open or close the purse strings.

    He has something called a Cabinet, you know, which is full of experts in particular areas.
    And not one science advisor in sight. I'm sure they can tell us how to land lucrative book deals, where to buy oil stocks, and so on, or what color tie to wear when meeting with the Dubai minister of Defense, but who cares?

    Personally, I'd like to see the US move more strongly into the scientific circles.

    I agree that the American education system is flawed, but I have never seen any evidence that the general American public is any more ignorant of academic knowledge than the general Western public. People in capitalist countries tend to focus only on that knowledge or skills which will increase their earnings.
    So if we dump more money into scientific circles, perhaps then US children will profess a larger desire to become scientists.

    That's really a point for my side.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Should he have a math adviser, as well? A linguistics adviser, perhaps? An official theology adviser, too?
    There is an official Chaplain for the Senate and House, I believe. As for linguistics, I'm not sure how often that would come up in policy?

    I can't see the current President worrying much about the kinship between English and Italian, or the need for a overarching language like Esperanto...

    Hell, the man has enough trouble with English as it is...

    So far you haven't convinced me that a science advisor is a bad thing Clive. What else do you have to offer other than, "We've got a lot of advisors who do stuff?"

    And the slippery slope of, "If we get a sciencey advisor type, then we'll need a mud pie advisor too. Maybe a Play-Doh one as well."

    That's nonsense.

    The issue here is that the government, particularly the executive branch, is giving cold shoulder to the practice with the most potential to reduce or eliminate wide reaching and particularly dangerous problems.

    Hunger, energy, cancer, etc...

    It won't be the head of NASA that cures cancer, nor will it be the Senate Chaplain...

    Someone ought to explain to Bush, and the next guy/gal to come along, exactly what's going on out there...
    Last edited by Slipnish; April 19th, 2008 at 02:09 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  17. #17
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Should he have a math adviser, as well? A linguistics adviser, perhaps? An official theology adviser, too?
    A scientific adviser has legitimate political and economic value. A math adviser wouldn't be useful because the only thing that comes up with mathematics is something that would invariably fall under the education adviser's role.

    We may need a linguistics adviser, if the USA eventually becomes bi or trilingual.

    We are a government that does not entangle itself with a religion, so a religious adviser is rather useless.



    Science, however, we require. Science has incorporated itself into every part of our daily lives. The nation runs off of energy policies to supply its electrical, gas, and water supplies. Our nation in the last decade became over run with computers and new technology that has revolutionized nearly every aspect of our lives --from education, to socializing, to sending information, to the way we pay our bills. We have multi, multi billion dollar industries in chemical plants, nuclear power plants, gas companies, technology, and medicine. And to help with all of the world's tall orders we have boat loads engineers to design the buildings of our future and drug companies that give us cures to the nation's ills.



    It is ignorant to say we do not have a vested interest in science, and it is more ignorant to say that the man who funds and aids the the scientific endeavour should not have an experienced adviser to help him make decisions that will affect the nation's future in science.
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  18. #18
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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Whether a science advisor would be beneficial is debatable. I am guessing that any President can be briefed on science related issues from the head of NASA or other science related government departments. Who was the science advisor to JFK when he led a push for the lunar mission? Who was the science advisor to FDR and Truman when they were involved in the atomic bomb? They had scientists advise them, for sure. Was their a cabinet level position for this? Would any of the men I listed be considered reasonable authorities for any subject in science?
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish View Post
    Check this out:
    I know they are politicians, but is there anyone out there who doesn't believe these issues are important?
    Yes, of all people, Bob dole.

    "I say this not to the teachers, but to their unions: If education were a war, you would be losing it. If it were a business, you would be driving it into bankruptcy. If it were a patient, it would be dying. To the teachers unions I say: When I am president, I will disregard your political power for the sake of the children, the schools and the nation. I plan to enrich your vocabulary with those words you fear -- school choice, competition and opportunity scholarships -- so that you will join the rest of us in accountability, while others compete with you for the commendable privilege of giving our children a real education."


    Maybe we wouldnt need advisors if things like this wouldnt happen:

    In a November 2007 report on how teachers unions affect math and science education, National Institute for Labor Relations Research senior research associate Stan Greer pointed out -- using the union’s own words -- how the National Education Association (NEA) stifles a critical education reform:

    In July 2000, the NEA Representative Assembly passed a resolution that explicitly condemns offering higher pay to math, science, and foreign language teachers for positions a school district is having trouble filling than to any other teachers: “The Association opposes providing additional compensation to attract and/or retain education employees in hard-to-recruit positions….”

    According to NEA researchers, 41 states are currently experiencing a shortage of math teachers. Forty-three have shortages of science and special education teachers. Fourteen states don’t have enough foreign language teachers, while 10 don’t have enough for English as a Second Language (ESL) and/or “bilingual” education.

    Meanwhile, just one state has an identified shortage of English teachers. Just one has a shortage of physical education teachers. And not one has a shortage of social studies, reading, kindergarten, or elementary school teachers.

    I posted this in another thread but found it relvant here as it directly relates to matters of science.
    "People are People..."

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    Re: Do we wonder why the US is dumb?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Who was the science advisor to JFK when he led a push for the lunar mission? Who was the science advisor to FDR and Truman when they were involved in the atomic bomb?
    • George B. Kistiakowsky (Eisenhower), 1959 – 1961
    • Jerome B. Wiesner (Kennedy and Johnson), 1961-64
    • Donald Hornig (Johnson), 1964-69
    • Lee A. DuBridge (Nixon), 1969-70
    • Edward E. David Jr. (Nixon), 1970-73
    • H. Guyford Stever served Nixon, 1973-74, as science advisor although Nixon had abolished the post of special assistant for science and technology
    • Stever stayed on with President Ford, who restored the assistant and created the post of Director of the Office of Science Technology and Policy in 1976
    • Frank Press (Carter), 1977-81, succeeded Stever, followed by
    • George A. Keyworth II (Reagan), 1981-86
    • John P. McTague (Reagan), 1986
    • William R. Graham (Reagan), 1986-89
    • D. Allan Bromley (G.H.W. Bush), 1989-93
    • John H. Gibbons (Clinton), 1993-98
    • Neal Lane (Clinton), 1998-2001


    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    They had scientists advise them, for sure. Was their a cabinet level position for this?
    Not sure. The list I provided included "unofficial and official" positions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    Would any of the men I listed be considered reasonable authorities for any subject in science?
    I would hope that any scientist would be compentent enough to recognize when he or she is still within the area of expertise, or when to recommend a specialist.

 

 
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