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  1. #1
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    Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    References:
    Matthew 21:12-17
    Mark 11:12-19
    Luke 19:45-48
    John 2:13-25

    Fundamental Christian Doctrine #1: Jesus is the perfect Son of God in physical manifestation on Earth.

    Perfect: unfailing, unerring, unblemished, never does wrong, etc.

    Fundamental Christian Doctrine #2: We should live our lives as perfectly as humanly possible, with Christ as our example.

    According to these passages, Jesus went into the temple, disagreed with the morals of the people there, and proceeded to dump out their coins on the ground, flip over their tables, herd their animals away, and in general wreak havoc on their operations.

    The moral of the story: Christian doctrine advocates destruction of property and physical disruption of non-Christians' activities as a justifiable act, if said destruction and disruption is meant to push Christian morals on nonbelievers.

    Comments? Perhaps some others on this board realize the implications of that sort of moral system. Hence the title of the thread.
    So...

    I finaggled my way into being able to do a Philosophy minor. I blame you, ODN.


  2. #2
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    I believe that you're misinterpreting the story in the gospels.
    In the first century, the temple in Jerusalem was the one place where the Jewish people could go and make sacrifices to atone for sins. As the Jewish peoples lived in areas abroad, many would have to travel great distances in order to make the appropriate sacrifice at the one temple where it "counted". Also, they needed to make sacrifice with animals that were temple approved. In order to cash in on this, many unscrupulous people would provide monetary exchange and animals in the temple courtyard, and essentially fleece the traveling Jews not only on currency exchange rates, but also on the prices of the animals sold. (Much like I can't bring my own beer into Yankee stadium, but pay $12.50 a bottle if I want to have one during the game).
    Christ (a practicing Jew brought up in the temple), was upset at his own people. Much like I'm sure many true Christians are upset by the mockery of teleevangelists,
    and that certain people of the Islamic faith are upset by 19 men flying planes into buildings in the name of Islam.
    I don't see where it condones Christians destroying property of non-Christians.

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  4. #3
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Cooper
    I believe that you're misinterpreting the story in the gospels.
    And I believe that I am not. Perhaps we can refrain from the term "misinterpreting" and instead point out the differences in our interpretations. What gives you the authority to say that you are right and I am wrong? Only a full discussion in which you prove it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Cooper
    In the first century, the temple in Jerusalem was the one place where the Jewish people could go and make sacrifices to atone for sins. As the Jewish peoples lived in areas abroad, many would have to travel great distances in order to make the appropriate sacrifice at the one temple where it "counted". Also, they needed to make sacrifice with animals that were temple approved. In order to cash in on this, many unscrupulous people would provide monetary exchange and animals in the temple courtyard, and essentially fleece the traveling Jews not only on currency exchange rates, but also on the prices of the animals sold. (Much like I can't bring my own beer into Yankee stadium, but pay $12.50 a bottle if I want to have one during the game).
    Maybe you disagree with having to pay $12.50 for a beer. That doesn't mean that the stadium doesn't have the right to do it. Neither does it give you the right to rip out their cash register and pour its contents out onto the floor, or to run the employees out of the concessions stand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Cooper
    Christ (a practicing Jew brought up in the temple), was upset at his own people. Much like I'm sure many true Christians are upset by the mockery of teleevangelists,
    Even at that point, there were two different ideologies going on. From a religious standpoint, Christianity began as soon as John the Baptist started baptizing people in the name of Christ. So, yes, Jesus was a Jew in practice and in lineage, but his purpose in many of his actions was to reform the Jewish faith, and he met harsh opposition from the established Jewish church.

    This was a contest: Jesus and his new Christian teachings vs. the Pharisees and strict adherence to old Jewish law.

    Be that as it may, my point still stands: Jesus disagreed with people, so he bashed up their stands, etc., etc. Are you saying that that's not what happened?

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Cooper
    I don't see where it condones Christians destroying property of non-Christians.
    OK. I'll try again. Pay attention.

    1. Jesus broke up peoples' places of business because they were doing something immoral
    1a. Jesus was justified in doing this, as he is perfect
    2. Christians are to follow Jesus' example
    3. Christians would also be justified in breaking up peoples' places of business if the business were doing something immoral

    Keep in mind that Jesus did not go through the law to do this. He didn't start a discussion. He took his own initiative to perpetrate physical acts that harmed other human beings and their property without any legal authority to do so.
    So...

    I finaggled my way into being able to do a Philosophy minor. I blame you, ODN.


  5. #4
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope View Post
    References:
    Matthew 21:12-17
    Mark 11:12-19
    Luke 19:45-48
    John 2:13-25

    Fundamental Christian Doctrine #1: Jesus is the perfect Son of God in physical manifestation on Earth.

    Perfect: unfailing, unerring, unblemished, never does wrong, etc.

    Fundamental Christian Doctrine #2: We should live our lives as perfectly as humanly possible, with Christ as our example.

    According to these passages, Jesus went into the temple, disagreed with the morals of the people there, and proceeded to dump out their coins on the ground, flip over their tables, herd their animals away, and in general wreak havoc on their operations.

    The moral of the story: Christian doctrine advocates destruction of property and physical disruption of non-Christians' activities as a justifiable act, if said destruction and disruption is meant to push Christian morals on nonbelievers.

    Comments? Perhaps some others on this board realize the implications of that sort of moral system. Hence the title of the thread.
    Look at the actual event:

    And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all those who sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who sold doves,


    13and said unto them, "It is written, `My house shall be called the house of prayer,' but ye have made it a den of thieves."

    I don't think it's that He didn't agree with them in their moral judgements, more that they were despoiling a place of worship.

    If someone were selling crack in your house, wouldn't you feel you had the right to kick them out and throw away their drugs?

    I don't think the people there were engaged in normal business activities, and if they were, why do it in a temple?
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  6. #5
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    If someone were selling crack in your house, wouldn't you feel you had the right to kick them out and throw away their drugs?
    The temple was a public place to all Jews. Those people had every right to be there. Not so with your comparison.

    Either way, Christians are to go out into the entire world with the "message of Christ" according to their doctrine, which gives them further excuse to violently, physically oppose those who have differing morals or actions that are objectionable. Scared yet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    I don't think the people there were engaged in normal business activities, and if they were, why do it in a temple?
    Because that's where the customers were. Plain and simple.
    So...

    I finaggled my way into being able to do a Philosophy minor. I blame you, ODN.


  7. #6
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope View Post
    The temple was a public place to all Jews. Those people had every right to be there. Not so with your comparison.
    Uhm...Jesus wasn't just any Jew. He was the Mega-Jew. The Ultra-Jew. He was Jew Perfectus. Look at the quote. He stated, "In MY HOUSE...

    Not "in a temple" or "in a church."

    I think your view does not take this into account.

    Either way, Christians are to go out into the entire world with the "message of Christ" according to their doctrine, which gives them further excuse to violently, physically oppose those who have differing morals or actions that are objectionable. Scared yet?
    Nope. It does not give them a license to steal. Which part of, "hate the sin, love the sinner" and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." are missing here?

    Chrisitianity, like any good idea, has had its share of thieves, maniacs, and those who would usurp its message of love, hope, and charity for their own selfish purposes over the years.

    So what?

    You can't blame an idea for how people use it. That's absurd.

    I suppose we should ban cars because people use them in drive-bys, hit and runs, and so forth. Obviously they are tools of evil, eh?

    Because that's where the customers were. Plain and simple.
    Logically, if we accept your OP that Jesus is indeed perfect, He is incapable of telling a lie. If he said, "This is my house..." then it was HIS house, and his actions there are perfectly reasonable.

    You seem to think that by simply saying, nuh-uh, you can disregard this fact. I submit that you may not.

    Secondly, you are blatantly ignoring his call on the "den of thieves" issue. Obviously there is more going on there than simply selling doves.

    I seriously doubt that the message here is that one can wander from churhc to church kicking over bake sale tables...
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  8. #7
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope View Post
    According to these passages, Jesus went into the temple, disagreed with the morals of the people there, and proceeded to dump out their coins on the ground, flip over their tables, herd their animals away, and in general wreak havoc on their operations.

    The moral of the story: Christian doctrine advocates destruction of property and physical disruption of non-Christians' activities as a justifiable act, if said destruction and disruption is meant to push Christian morals on nonbelievers.
    That's a pretty amateurish interpretation of that passage. Christ didn't merely disagree with the money changers' morals at the Temple. He was defending the sanctity of His Father's house of worship. They had made a place of worship into a place of greed. He didn't just go into a random marketplace and start wrecking stuff.

    The passage records Christ's specific reaction to a specific occurrence. It doesn't lay out a general moral precept for Christians, and in fact taking it out of its historical context is ludicrous. People don't go to churches today and set up vendors' booths in the sanctuary. Further, even if this passage was advocating a general moral of destroying merchants' property when they sell it inside churches, this does not translate into your wacky overgeneralization that Christians are encouraged to push their moral values onto others by vandalizing their belongings.

    Finally, Christ wasn't pushing Christian morals on anyone, considering He hadn't died, risen from death and ascended into Heaven yet, and Christianity had yet to exist at the time of the Temple incident. He was still at the time seen as a Jewish healer and religious reformer or prophet and He was reinforcing Jewish values by upholding the holiness of the Temple.

    In sum, try applying a hint of contextual analysis to biblical passages, and you won't make such elementary interpretive errors.

  9. #8
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    That's a pretty amateurish interpretation of that passage. Christ didn't merely disagree with the money changers' morals at the Temple. He was defending the sanctity of His Father's house of worship. They had made a place of worship into a place of greed. He didn't just go into a random marketplace and start wrecking stuff.

    The passage records Christ's specific reaction to a specific occurrence. It doesn't lay out a general moral precept for Christians, and in fact taking it out of its historical context is ludicrous. People don't go to churches today and set up vendors' booths in the sanctuary. Further, even if this passage was advocating a general moral of destroying merchants' property when they sell it inside churches, this does not translate into your wacky overgeneralization that Christians are encouraged to push their moral values onto others by vandalizing their belongings.

    Finally, Christ wasn't pushing Christian morals on anyone, considering He hadn't died, risen from death and ascended into Heaven yet, and Christianity had yet to exist at the time of the Temple incident. He was still at the time seen as a Jewish healer and religious reformer or prophet and He was reinforcing Jewish values by upholding the holiness of the Temple.

    In sum, try applying a hint of contextual analysis to biblical passages, and you won't make such elementary interpretive errors.
    Just a quick question: Would any other pious Jew have had the authority to do what Jesus did? Or was this authority limited to Jesus?
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  10. #9
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    Uhm...Jesus wasn't just any Jew. He was the Mega-Jew. The Ultra-Jew. He was Jew Perfectus. Look at the quote. He stated, "In MY HOUSE...
    As followers of Jesus we are encouraged (actually, commanded) to emulate his actions. This means that any Christian (even a Gentile) would be justified in going into the Jewish temple and doing the same thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    It does not give them a license to steal.
    Where did I say that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    You can't blame an idea for how people use it. That's absurd.
    Perhaps not. But some ideas are repulsive by themselves. Examples: racism, "gene pool cleansing," etc.

    To me, the idea that physical intrusion on the internal moral behavior of other groups seems like one of those ideas...

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    Secondly, you are blatantly ignoring his call on the "den of thieves" issue. Obviously there is more going on there than simply selling doves.
    I told you, I fully understand and disagree with the greed perpetrated by the salespeople in the temple. But that doesn't justify Jesus' actions in my mind.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    That's a pretty amateurish interpretation of that passage. Christ didn't merely disagree with the money changers' morals at the Temple. He was defending the sanctity of His Father's house of worship. They had made a place of worship into a place of greed. He didn't just go into a random marketplace and start wrecking stuff.
    The point of the temple was to be a place for the Jewish people to commune with God. Holy-of-Holies and all that jazz.

    Jesus came to Earth as God in human form, negating the need for the temple at all.

    Today, at least in the Christian churches that I know of, the belief is that there is no place on Earth that is a "holy place" anymore, because the Holy Spirit is in all of us, yadda, yadda, yadda.

    Why would Jesus protect the sanctity of a temple that was no longer "holy" since God was walking out and about the streets of Jerusalem?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Finally, Christ wasn't pushing Christian morals on anyone, considering He hadn't died, risen from death and ascended into Heaven yet, and Christianity had yet to exist at the time of the Temple incident. He was still at the time seen as a Jewish healer and religious reformer or prophet and He was reinforcing Jewish values by upholding the holiness of the Temple.
    Actually, he was seen as the Holy Son of God even at that point. There's a bit of a difference. And his followers were already referred to as his "disciples" and "Christ-followers." This sounds like a separate religion to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    People don't go to churches today and set up vendors' booths in the sanctuary.
    Sure they do. At the church my parents drag me to every Sunday, they sell concessions in between the 9:00 service and the 10:30 one. And they make a nice profit, from what I understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    ...this does not translate into your wacky overgeneralization that Christians are encouraged to push their moral values onto others by vandalizing their belongings.
    Oh, no? What do you call pouring out money on the ground, flipping over tables and booths, and herding animals away?
    Last edited by Hope; May 5th, 2008 at 06:32 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    So...

    I finaggled my way into being able to do a Philosophy minor. I blame you, ODN.


  11. #10
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope
    The point of the temple was to be a place for the Jewish people to commune with God. Holy-of-Holies and all that jazz.

    Jesus came to Earth as God in human form, negating the need for the temple at all.

    Today, at least in the Christian churches that I know of, the belief is that there is no place on Earth that is a "holy place" anymore, because the Holy Spirit is in all of us, yadda, yadda, yadda.

    Why would Jesus protect the sanctity of a temple that was no longer "holy" since God was walking out and about the streets of Jerusalem?
    You think every synagogue has a holy of holies?

    The main purpose of the temple is to worship God. The secondary purpose of the temple is for the fellowship of believers. These people were perverting that purpose; these temples were not public areas. People couldn't just traipse in and out at their leisure, doing as they pleased, as they could in the streets or in a park.

    Oh, no? What do you call pouring out money on the ground, flipping over tables and booths, and herding animals away?
    Um, clearing out other peoples' stuff that shouldn't have been there?

    Imagine if you went to high school one day and some local merchant had decided to set up shop in your home room. He'd get chucked out rather quickly, don't you think?
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  12. #11
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    You think every synagogue has a holy of holies?
    No. Where did you get that idea? I was simply illustrating the idea that the synagogue is the place where the Jewish person can best worship God, because it is a "holy place."

    Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synagogue
    The ark is reminiscent of the Ark of the Covenant which contained the tablets with Ten Commandments. This is the holiest spot in a synagogue, equivalent to the Holy of Holies.
    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    Um, clearing out other peoples' stuff that shouldn't have been there?
    Whose call is that? The Jewish church. Not Jesus'. To emphasize snackboy's point:

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy
    Just a quick question: Would any other pious Jew have had the authority to do what Jesus did? Or was this authority limited to Jesus?
    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    These people were perverting that purpose; these temples were not public areas. People couldn't just traipse in and out at their leisure, doing as they pleased, as they could in the streets or in a park.
    Quote Originally Posted by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synagogue
    Synagogues often take on a broader role in modern Jewish communities and may include additional facilities such as a function hall, kosher kitchen, religious school, library, day care center and a smaller chapel for daily services.
    Day care center? Function hall? Sounds about as public as a high school or community center. That's pretty public.
    Last edited by Hope; May 5th, 2008 at 07:20 AM. Reason: ...typo...
    So...

    I finaggled my way into being able to do a Philosophy minor. I blame you, ODN.


  13. #12
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope View Post
    As followers of Jesus we are encouraged (actually, commanded) to emulate his actions. This means that any Christian (even a Gentile) would be justified in going into the Jewish temple and doing the same thing.
    Nope. Not unless the temple belongs to their father and is dedicated to his worship. Your analogy fails. Period.

    Where did I say that?
    SIGH. It's a euphemism. It means they don't have the right to do any damn thing they please. Much like the story above, sometimes you have to read BETWEEN the lines to understand.

    Perhaps not. But some ideas are repulsive by themselves. Examples: racism, "gene pool cleansing," etc. To me, the idea that physical intrusion on the internal moral behavior of other groups seems like one of those ideas...
    Really? So cops should be okay if I want to sacrifice my kid to the Great Invisible Unicorn?

    You really should reword that last...

    I told you, I fully understand and disagree with the greed perpetrated by the salespeople in the temple. But that doesn't justify Jesus' actions in my mind.
    Okay. So it's your opinion that X shouldn't happen. It is my opinion that X should happen, and furthermore, based on the circumstances at hand, people should be more understanding about WHY it happened.

    What's next?
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  14. #13
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope View Post

    Comments? Perhaps some others on this board realize the implications of that sort of moral system. Hence the title of the thread.

    The moral of Christ raging against the money changers is that righteous indignation is just.


    The priest, in Rockford, IL some years ago who when the building was thought empty rammed his car into an abortion clinic and then proceeded to go at some main support columns with a power saw was found guilty of breaking man's law (against property) but was not guilty (in the eyes of the Roman Catholic Church no less) of breaking God's Law. "Give unto Caesar that which is Caesar's and give unto God that which is God's" -- but when the two conflict God wins.

    Righteous indignation -- and the use of non-lethal force -- is not only permitted but demanded by God when the faithful encounter people who do evil. Jesus gave us this example. It in fact was this example of civil disobedience that inspired 20th century civil rights leaders like Ghandi and King. Ghadi, although a Hinu was a great admirer of Jesus. In fact, the only picture on the wall of his home was a pisture of Jesus.

    Sometimes -- even lethal force is OK -- when it is a matter of survival and killing another human is the lesser of two evils. The killing of a human is still a sin and must be repented, but sometimes, when faced with evil -- doing absolutely nothing is the worse thing one can do.

    So, unless you are comitting a crime against God you have nothing to fear from Christians.

  15. #14
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post

    So, unless you are comitting a crime against God you have nothing to fear from Christians.
    Is that why they want to teach creationism/ID instead of Evolution?
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish View Post
    Is that why they want to teach creationism/ID instead of Evolution?
    Evolution is a theory --not a law.

    However, to claim that God did not create all things is in fact blasphemy from the Christian perspective. Personally, I have never understood why -- even in a public classroom, one should be prohibited from teaching that many Christians denominations, including Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and others, have no problem with evolution and view it as a scientific explanantion of "how" God created life -- we have for many many decades. Include one or two sentinces while teaching this subjec and there is no controversey from mainstream Christianity. I can not speak for the kooks though. To insist however on teaching a purely atheistic view in public schools would be a violation of the First Amendment. Our country was founded on the belief of Church and State being separate, but the Founders never contemplated forcing the denial of the existece of God on anyone.

    You really have nowhere to go on this issue and I do not see how it is relative to the topic.

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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Evolution is a theory --not a law.
    Uh-huh. Which means what, exactly? I'd be glad to hear it.

    However, to claim that God did not create all things is in fact blasphemy from the Christian perspective. Personally, I have never understood why -- even in a public classroom, one should be prohibited from teaching that many Christians denominations, including Roman Catholicism, Orthodox Christianity and others, have no problem with evolution and view it as a scientific explanantion of "how" God created life
    Well, mostly because that would be a misuse of evolution. That's abiogenesis. A different subject.

    -- we have for many many decades. Include one or two sentinces while teaching this subjec and there is no controversey from mainstream Christianity. I can not speak for the kooks though. To insist however on teaching a purely atheistic view in public schools would be a violation of the First Amendment.
    "A purely atheistic view"???? WTF? What would that be?

    Our country was founded on the belief of Church and State being separate, but the Founders never contemplated forcing the denial of the existece of God on anyone.
    Or the existence, come to that.

    You really have nowhere to go on this issue and I do not see how it is relative to the topic.
    It's germane to the topic in that there are some places where fear from people who call themselves Christian is real. Education being one of them.

    The OP here has been fairly trashed, IMO.

    However, that doesn't mean that there are no reasons to fear some of those people.
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    Nope. Not unless the temple belongs to their father and is dedicated to his worship. Your analogy fails. Period.
    I was under the impression that we were all "children of God."

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    Really? So cops should be okay if I want to sacrifice my kid to the Great Invisible Unicorn?

    You really should reword that last...
    Okay... how about "...actions which harm someone without the victim's consent."

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    It is my opinion that X should happen, and furthermore, based on the circumstances at hand, people should be more understanding about WHY it happened.
    Whether or not we are "understanding" has no bearing on the morality of the action. And if we are too 'understanding', then we put up with oppression and immoral actions which are harmful to us and society. My argument is that Jesus' actions directly justify exactly this sort of oppression by Christians against those who disagree with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus
    So, unless you are comitting a crime against God you have nothing to fear from Christians.
    Holy s***!

    Thank you for proving my point.

    If you perform an action that God doesn't agree with, then Christians are justified by their religious doctrines to take retribution against you.

    Follow their morals, or they will force them on you. Does any other Christian on this board feel like stepping forward to dissent this view of Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipnish
    The OP here has been fairly trashed, IMO.
    On the contrary, I think that it's been shown time and again to be true.

    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    Christian doctrine advocates destruction of property and physical disruption of non-Christians' activities as a justifiable act, if said destruction and disruption is meant to push Christian morals on nonbelievers.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus (a Christian)
    Righteous indignation -- and the use of non-lethal force -- is not only permitted but demanded by God when the faithful encounter people who do evil.
    So...

    I finaggled my way into being able to do a Philosophy minor. I blame you, ODN.


  19. #18
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope
    If you perform an action that God doesn't agree with, then Christians are justified by their religious doctrines to take retribution against you.
    "Vengeance is mine, saith the Lord."

    It is not our place to redress wrongs solely against God.

    I guess I'm not clear on your point; do you think that the moneychangers had a right to do business in the temple, and Jesus denied them their right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope
    Day care center? Function hall? Sounds about as public as a high school or community center. That's pretty public.
    Yes, but for what purpose? For merchants to do business at, against the expressed will of the owners?

    Jesus threw them out because their actions violated canonical law; they weren't supposed to be allowed to do business there.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  20. #19
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    I guess I'm not clear on your point; do you think that the moneychangers had a right to do business in the temple, and Jesus denied them their right?
    Yes. But it's more than that: I'm wondering what right Jesus had to take action even if they were doing wrong. First of all, Jesus doesn't even give his justification to the people who question him about his authority. Second of all, the only justification I have yet heard for Jesus' actions in this passage are a.) righteous anger and b.) that he was enforcing God's will.

    No matter what Jesus' justification was, it would extend to all Christians, would it not?

    If Jesus' actions are justified (as claimed by the Bible) then Christians would be justified in taking similar actions even today.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    Yes, but for what purpose? For merchants to do business at, against the expressed will of the owners?

    Jesus threw them out because their actions violated canonical law; they weren't supposed to be allowed to do business there.
    I had a friend point this out to me earlier today as well. I don't suppose you could point out that passage for me? I'm not sure where to look, and don't want to go to all that effort, especially as this is besides the point.

    If it was against the express will of the owners, then why was it that after this specific incident that the scribes and chief priests seek "how they might destroy him" (Luke 11:18) after hearing of it? The scribes and chief priests, of course, being in charge of the temple and all. And yet they were angry with Jesus for "cleansing" it.

    Jesus' actions jumped any sort of line of authority that they should have. By setting this example, he set a precedent for vigilante justice by all Christians in the name of God and His Word.
    So...

    I finaggled my way into being able to do a Philosophy minor. I blame you, ODN.


  21. #20
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    Re: Why we should be scared as hell of Christianity

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope
    Yes. But it's more than that: I'm wondering what right Jesus had to take action even if they were doing wrong.
    What right did he have to expel trespassers? The same rights as anyone else has to.

    [QUOT=Hope]First of all, Jesus doesn't even give his justification to the people who question him about his authority. [/QUOTE]

    Support.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope
    Second of all, the only justification I have yet heard for Jesus' actions in this passage are a.) righteous anger and b.) that he was enforcing God's will.
    God's will as expressed through Jewish law, which determines which activities are and are not allowed in Jewish temples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hope=No matter what Jesus' justification was, it would extend to all Christians, would it not?

    If Jesus' actions are justified (as claimed by the Bible) then Christians would be justified in [I
    taking[/I] similar actions even today.
    Yes, I agree. If I got into church and someone was hawking their wares in the sanctuary, I would throw them out.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

 

 
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