Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Results 1 to 15 of 15
  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Protection of Job

    In the story of Job, God had a "hedge" around Job essentially protecting Job from evil / Satan. Various sources online indicated that Satan need not to have permission from God in order to tempt / harm man. However, because God had this special protection for Job, Satan asked that it be lifted, and God did so in order to prove to Satan that Job's faith would remain steadfast.

    Why did Job have "special" protection in the first place? It would be logical to conclude that God, given His protection towards Job and all in his life, could extend that protection to all Christians. The special protection given to Job defeats the argument that evil must exist in order to test mankind. If Job can be protected as a Christian, then why not any other Christian? If God knows that you are faithful, and no matter what happens to you, that your faith will be unwaivering, then why allow the evil to occur in the first place?

    Note: You may help clarify your answer by stating if you interpret the story of Job as literal; metaphor; or parable.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  2. #2
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Other than Hyde answering in the "Job" thread that he doesn't know why Job had this special protection from God, I am quite surprised there has been no response. I suppose I should consider this a concession from ODN theists that God can and has extended his protection around at least one Christian to protect him (and his family) from evil, thus making the argument that evil must exist invalid. While the potential for evil could exist, it is completely unnecessary as evidenced by Job.

    Unless of course you would like to argue that the evil only ever happens to the unfaithful.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  3. #3
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    A third possibility is that the story of Job is just a means of explaining the process for anytime terrible things happen. The way Hyde explains it, if might be that people who are happy and prosper are "hedged" by the Almighty until Satan - the great Prosecutor of sinners for the Lord - comes along and reminds God that there must be a balance in nature. This then results in God removing the "hedge" so that balance can be attained.

    Of course, this is problematic for some very basic moral descriptors typically associated with the Almighty since many good people suffer and many bad ones don't. Since the hedge being removed is predicated on "balance" and nothing else (since, in the case of Job, his being "blameless and upright; a man who fears the LORD and shunned evil" didn't do squat to save his family), then there can be no real physical justice system the Almighty can use (though this approach raises the question of why all Job's losses were replaced in greater measure; I guess balance is a fickle thing).

    If this is the case, then one has to wonder what the difference is between being governed by God and being governed by nature, since the whole "Hyde" approach means that nature simply balances itself irrespective of justice or morality. Sounds like a good argument atheism to me; or at least, an argument for enormously disappointed theism.

  4. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    A third possibility is that the story of Job is just a means of explaining the process for anytime terrible things happen. The way Hyde explains it, if might be that people who are happy and prosper are "hedged" by the Almighty until Satan - the great Prosecutor of sinners for the Lord - comes along and reminds God that there must be a balance in nature. This then results in God removing the "hedge" so that balance can be attained.
    God being "reminded" of something suggests He forgot - so much for all-knowing.

    Of course, this is problematic for some very basic moral descriptors typically associated with the Almighty since many good people suffer and many bad ones don't. Since the hedge being removed is predicated on "balance" and nothing else (since, in the case of Job, his being "blameless and upright; a man who fears the LORD and shunned evil" didn't do squat to save his family), then there can be no real physical justice system the Almighty can use (though this approach raises the question of why all Job's losses were replaced in greater measure; I guess balance is a fickle thing).

    If this is the case, then one has to wonder what the difference is between being governed by God and being governed by nature, since the whole "Hyde" approach means that nature simply balances itself irrespective of justice or morality. Sounds like a good argument atheism to me; or at least, an argument for enormously disappointed theism.
    Actually, just stopping at what does it mean to be governed by God is a sufficient starter. The story of Job would lead me to believe that God is not necessarily all that fair and balanced; not unlike a popular cable "news" network that makes the claim but really isn't.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  5. #5
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    With my Angel in Aurora
    Posts
    5,722
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Dionysus View Post
    If this is the case, then one has to wonder what the difference is between being governed by God and being governed by nature, since the whole "Hyde" approach means that nature simply balances itself irrespective of justice or morality. Sounds like a good argument atheism to me; or at least, an argument for enormously disappointed theism.
    I have an approach named after me. That's awesome. But it's not a bad perspective (regardless of InGodment). Like I said in the other thread, forest fires, a particularly destructive thing, is necessary to help the overall system since it destroys a lot of undergrowth that can damage a forest's ecosystem. Similarly, Volcanos are violent and destructive, but that destructive power is necessary (at least nowadays) to power the entire country of New Zealand, and to build islands. It's just the way things appear to work.

    And I DID want to comment on this thread by saying, Snack, Job wasn't a Christian...he was a Jew (the Beta version of Christianity, or the Alpha version of Islam).
    But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
    1 Peter 3:15-16

  6. #6
    ODN's Crotchety Old Man

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Location, Location
    Posts
    9,671
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    I have an approach named after me. That's awesome. But it's not a bad perspective (regardless of InGodment).
    Well, I started to go with calling it a "Hydeous" approach, but that's a little too punny.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    Like I said in the other thread, forest fires, a particularly destructive thing, is necessary...
    They is? (Come on, you know I had to take it.)

  7. #7
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    I have an approach named after me. That's awesome. But it's not a bad perspective (regardless of InGodment). Like I said in the other thread, forest fires, a particularly destructive thing, is necessary to help the overall system since it destroys a lot of undergrowth that can damage a forest's ecosystem. Similarly, Volcanos are violent and destructive, but that destructive power is necessary (at least nowadays) to power the entire country of New Zealand, and to build islands. It's just the way things appear to work.
    However, in retrospect, if the system is designed perfectly, volcanos and fires need not occur.

    And I DID want to comment on this thread by saying, Snack, Job wasn't a Christian...he was a Jew (the Beta version of Christianity, or the Alpha version of Islam).
    Thanks for the clarification; however, it has little if any impact on the argument.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  8. #8
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    It isn't "special" protection. It's offered to any who would ask for it and/or accept it. Job was amazingly righteous, he had a very mature spiritual life and relationship with God. As such, he was blessed. Satan thought he could make Job blaspheme, God allowed Satan to do his dirty work (thus letting down his blessing, or "hedge of thorns" of protection), Satan lost...Job was far too upright of a man.

    More on this type of protection and many examples of it throughout scripture:
    http://butdust.com/hedges.htm
    http://www.lornematthews.com/articlespages/Hedge.html
    http://zbh.com/sermons/hedge2.htm
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  9. #9
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    It isn't "special" protection. It's offered to any who would ask for it and/or accept it. Job was amazingly righteous, he had a very mature spiritual life and relationship with God. As such, he was blessed. Satan thought he could make Job blaspheme, God allowed Satan to do his dirty work (thus letting down his blessing, or "hedge of thorns" of protection), Satan lost...Job was far too upright of a man.

    More on this type of protection and many examples of it throughout scripture:
    http://butdust.com/hedges.htm
    http://www.lornematthews.com/articlespages/Hedge.html
    http://zbh.com/sermons/hedge2.htm
    What you are implicitly suggesting then is that evil only befalls those that are unrighteous. If a person feels that they are a good person, upstanding, Christian in all ways, yet evil befalls them, can they conclude they were not righteous enough?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  10. #10
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Not at all. There is no absolute barrier or invisible force field against suffering/evil if you will. Instead, through faith one is strengthened against adversity.

    1 Cor. 10:13 NAS
    No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  11. #11
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Not at all. There is no absolute barrier or invisible force field against suffering/evil if you will. Instead, through faith one is strengthened against adversity.

    1 Cor. 10:13 NAS
    No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
    You made the claim the God provided Job with protection from evil because Job was righteous. And you site other instances where God has provided such protection. God's protection is the barrier against evil. It is God's choice to remove or provide the barrier.

    Essentially, if something evil happens to someone that means they did not have God's protection. If God's protection is only extended to the righteous, then that person, no matter what they think or how they act, is not righteous enough to receive God's protection.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  12. #12
    Owner / Senior Admin

    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    19,394
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Not just righteous...but the most righteous...of all the people in the world at the time, Job was "the man". He had an understanding and a faith in God, that was unparalleled. He was an extreme example of being an upright believer. As such, his "hedge" was strong. He was capable of withstanding great adversity. The stronger one is in their faith, the stronger they are against adversity. I know of no Christian today that would compare to Job and his devotion, faith, and love for God. Job is an extreme example to serve as an example for followers of God (in it puts into context the scheme of things when it comes to adversity).

    Furthermore, Job was not sinless. It's that he strove to be sin free moreso than any other. He knew the right path and made it a priority. Job was indeed tempted, Job indeed sinned and fell short. It isn't that Job couldn't do wrong, it is that through his greater faith and dedication to God, that he sinned far less, was more upright, and was a shining example for his fellow man. The closer one is to God, the more they are rewarded. This isn't necessarily material reward, it comes in many forms.

    Also, the links I provided above go into more depth about the issue of "protection". I don't have the time for an indepth debate on the issue, which is why I provided several links to help explain the issue (since no other theist was doing so it seems).
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
    Senior Administrator
    -------------------------

    I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend. - Thomas Jefferson




  13. #13
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Hyde View Post
    And I DID want to comment on this thread by saying, Snack, Job wasn't a Christian...he was a Jew (the Beta version of Christianity, or the Alpha version of Islam).
    I did a little research, Job wasn't a Jew, but in fact a non-Jew or Gentile.


    Apok -
    I understand your points, but they still set the example that you don't enjoy God's protection unless you're are [most] righteous. According to the limited netsearch I did, Noah, Daniel, and Job fall into this category of righteous, quite a short list. Basically, you are allowed to be tempted because you are not righteous.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

  14. #14
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,893
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy
    Basically, you are allowed to be tempted because you are not righteous.
    In what way were they not tempted? Quite a few whom God has favored were quite obviously tempted. Daniel was tempted on numerous occaisions, often with the threat of losing his life hanging over him.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  15. #15
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Posts
    2,217
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Protection of Job

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    In what way were they not tempted? Quite a few whom God has favored were quite obviously tempted. Daniel was tempted on numerous occaisions, often with the threat of losing his life hanging over him.
    Tempted was the incorrect word. My bad. I should have said, evil is allowed to befall you if you are not righteous.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
    When the Standard is defined you will know how right or wrong you are.
    electricShares - a work in progress

 

 

Similar Threads

  1. Libertarians in theory
    By starcreator in forum Politics
    Replies: 68
    Last Post: November 7th, 2006, 09:01 AM
  2. The Religious Service Attendance Protection Act
    By RfrancisR in forum Religion
    Replies: 43
    Last Post: July 13th, 2006, 05:17 PM
  3. Taser guns for protection.
    By mike.evans in forum Current Events
    Replies: 37
    Last Post: June 30th, 2006, 03:35 PM
  4. Spain approves gay marriage and adoption
    By Meng Bomin in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 77
    Last Post: May 2nd, 2005, 03:04 PM
  5. Replies: 16
    Last Post: April 29th, 2004, 05:11 PM

Tags for this Thread

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •