Welcome guest, is this your first visit? Create Account now to join.
  • Login:

Welcome to the Online Debate Network.

If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed.

Poll: What is your stance on abortion?

Be advised that this is a public poll: other users can see the choice(s) you selected.

Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 29

Thread: Abortion Stance

  1. #1
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Grinnell, IA
    Posts
    4,460
    Post Thanks / Like

    Abortion Stance

    Discuss.
    孟柏民
    Formerly Neverending (for all you old-timers)

  2. #2
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    2,974
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Conditional pro-choice:
    Medical risks to mother
    Medical risks to child
    Stillbirth
    Life-crippling deformity or affliction in child
    and similar circumstances are acceptable terms for abortion. I favor medically supervised and documented procedure.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

  3. #3
    Need to validate email

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Life by the drop. I've come to understand just what that means.
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    while I find abortion to be overused, which is where my real bone of contention lays, I cannot (not being a woman) get to the point of making the call for all of womanhood since I cannot walk a mile in their shoes......:O)
    When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, there will be peace..........jimi hendrix.

  4. #4
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,893
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    I believe it to be immoral and that it should be outlawed, no exceptions.

    Why is that not a choice?
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  5. #5
    Need to validate email

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Life by the drop. I've come to understand just what that means.
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    I believe it to be immoral and that it should be outlawed, no exceptions.
    That would be choice number 3................:O)
    When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, there will be peace..........jimi hendrix.

  6. #6
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    6,893
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    I swear I didnt see that when I read the choices, must be going blind.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  7. #7
    Need to validate email

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Life by the drop. I've come to understand just what that means.
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    swear I didnt see that when I read the choices, must be going blind.
    As a D.I. in basic training told me when I complained about waking up with a sore eyes(lack of sleep). He said, "Wear boxing gloves to bed."....It took me a couple of years before I figured out what the heck he was saying!........:O)
    When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, there will be peace..........jimi hendrix.

  8. #8
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    MA
    Posts
    2,974
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyberclown
    As a D.I. in basic training told me when I complained about waking up with a sore eyes(lack of sleep). He said, "Wear boxing gloves to bed."....It took me a couple of years before I figured out what the heck he was saying!........:O)
    I'm torn between some protective element or some perverted one. Gimme a hint
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

  9. #9
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    N. Wilkesboro, NC
    Posts
    1,621
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    I believe abortion to be immoral but also recognize the importance of keeping it legal at least for the time being. My main concern lies with partial birth abortion and essentially any abortion after the point the fetus could survive outside the womb with medical intervention. It is my feeling that the instances in which late term abortions are medically necessary (or even suggested) are few and far between and should genuinely be treated as the exception rather than the rule.
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

  10. #10
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by mrs_innocent
    My main concern lies with partial birth abortion and essentially any abortion after the point the fetus could survive outside the womb with medical intervention.
    I support what Mrs. Innocent stated above.

    I challenge the issue that has been stated above: the real question is not abortion, but where does life begin? Is an abortion the correction of imperfect birth-control (broken condom, bad rythm method, etc.) or the murder of a young life?

    It is a question that must be answered before an individual can give an answer to the abortion question. Some believe life starts when sperm and egg come together. Others believe it starts at birth... while individuals like myself (and I believe Mrs. Innocent) believe that it begins when a fetus can survive outside of the womb.

    Another important issue to understand is that abortion is not a new thing. There have been abortions for generations*. If abortion is made illegal, it will not end abortions. Better to keep abortions legal and regulated. If one is out to save "lives" better to protect the life of the unborn AND the mother.


    *An ironic statement, I realize...

  11. #11
    Need to validate email

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Life by the drop. I've come to understand just what that means.
    Posts
    3,625
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    I'm torn between some protective element or some perverted one. Gimme a hint
    go with the perverted one, the old yarn about growing hair on your palms or going blind?

    I don't really spend much time thinking about when a life becomes a life. I look more directly at the choice of abortion as a means of birty control. As I said, (and it's obvious anyway) is that not being a woman gives me the notion that it is an entirely different perspective of which I (as a man) simply find to complicated to make that decision for anyone else....:O)
    When the power of love becomes stronger than the love of power, there will be peace..........jimi hendrix.

  12. #12
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    10
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    I could only answer this poll with the last choice, (I believe otherwise, and will explain). The question, as asked, treats all abortions as one particular type of thing, while from my point of view, there is a huge difference between an early abortion and a late abortion. The morally important question is not even 'when does life begin', but 'when does a fetus become a person with rights that must be considered and respected'.

    As a matter of law, if one grants legal rights and status to a pre-viable fetus, one has created a legal nightmare. The fetus cannot be separated from the womb without killing it, but in granting it legal status and rights, one has inevitably violated the right of the pregnant woman to her own bodily autonomy. It is this dilemma that led the SCOTUS to state, in Roe v Wade, that a pre-viable fetus cannot, in law, have any interest or right separate from the woman that carries it. The two, the woman and the fetus, are one single and inseparable biological unit. Any law that prohibits or restricts abortion of pre-viable fetuses thus creates a legal situation (two legally distinct entities, with their own independent set of rights, coexisting in a single body) which is inherently incompatable with the physical reality of the situation (a biologically inseparable unity). In fact, any law that restricts or forbids abortion of the pre-viable fetus not only gives the fetus rights and legal status, but it gives the fetus superior rights and status, overwhelming the simplest and most basic rights of the woman. In essence, the woman becomes nothing more than a living incubator, without status or rights of her own. Any action that she contemplates must first be subject to the right of the fetus. In effect, the non-viable fetus, by the mere fact of its prescence, is given absolute veto power over the woman. Thus, I am against any law that grants rights or legal status to non-viable fetuses.

    In fact, as a matter of law, I am in general agreement with Roe v Wade. It is, as all laws are, a rough compromise between the rights and status of two parties. Since the fetus can have no interest separate from the mother in the very early stages, then no restriction during the first trimester, during which any woman can choose abortion for any reason (including having a bad hair day). Since viability ( more importantly, sentience) develops at some indeterminate time during the 2nd trimester, allow abortion, but with some restrictions. Bad hair days are no longer sufficient reason, but health problems with either mother or fetus certainly are. During the 3rd trimester, when fetal development has advanced to the point that the fetus is both sentient and probably viable, sever restrictions on abortion are appropriate. The last remaining acceptable reasons for abortion at this late stage are when the pregnancy itself poses a threat to the life or health of the mother.

    As for the moral questions, they are a bad basis for law. Morality is highly personal. It is wrapped up in religion, philosophy, personal experiences, metaphysics, and particular world views. When the law attempts to impose morality, it all too often becomes a weapon to be used against those whose opinions, or religion, or race, or gender, are unpopular. A moral choice, made freely and without coercion, is just that, a choice. A "moral" action, taken because one has no choice, because the force of law prohibits any other course, is no longer a moral action, it is simply obedience to authority. It is not the job of the government to enforce a single moral standard, as if we could ever agree on such a thing, The job of government is to set the 'rules of the game' in a way that is known to all, that is as fair as possible to all, and that respects the rights of each person to make their own moral choices, free of undue coercion.

  13. #13
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    northeast
    Posts
    1,066
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    The two, the woman and the fetus, are one single and inseparable biological unit
    This is wrong. The fetus has a unique set of DNA and is a completely different individual. Yes it cannot survive without nurturing and protection but neither can a newborn child.



    In fact, any law that restricts or forbids abortion of the pre-viable fetus not only gives the fetus rights and legal status, but it gives the fetus superior rights and status, overwhelming the simplest and most basic rights of the woman.

    How does this give the fetus superior right?. It would give the fetus equal rights,as all people should have. However I believe any mother would choose life for their baby over their own if it came down to a choice. This is exactly the reason why abortion is so emotionally upsetting for a woman. She has to deny the fact that to terminate her pregnancy is against her very being as a woman. No woman wants to kill her child. Her feelings toward her child are exactly the opposite. As hard as she may try to deny it and justify her abortion those feelings are still there, sometimes hidden so deep she doesn't even know it.


    In essence, the woman becomes nothing more than a living incubator, without status or rights of her own.
    I am not surprised that some feel this way. This is exacly what was predicted would happen when contraception was so widely accepted( after the invention of the birth control pill). It was predicted that women would become just sex objects. It makes sense if that is true that women would also be considered as just incubators. ARE YOU A WOMAN? DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN? Did you really feel that you were just an incubator. If you breastfed your baby were you just a nicely shaped bottle? It you want woman to have status and rights we must realize that we are more than just sex objects, incubators and bottles!





    Since viability ( more importantly, sentience) develops at some indeterminate time during the 2nd trimester, allow abortion, but with some restrictions.
    You need to pinpoint the "time during the 2nd trimester". When exactly in the 2nd trimester does the fetus become a distinct individual? Until you can do this, your stance means nothing.



    During the 3rd trimester, when fetal development has advanced to the point that the fetus is both sentient and probably viable, sever restrictions on abortion are appropriate.

    PROBABLY viable? What if the fetus is STILL not viable. Abortion should still be ok. When does the fetus, in your opinion, become viable. If this is something you feel we don't know, isn't it better not to take chances and assume life?


    The last remaining acceptable reasons for abortion at this late stage are when the pregnancy itself poses a threat to the life or health of the mother.

    This is assuming that mother and baby do not have an equal right to live. This would mean that it depends on age as to whether we have a right to continue living. Grandma has more of a right to live than mom. Mom has more of a right to live than me. I have more of a right to live that my newborn baby. Be careful when you take this stance because you than have to disagree with Euthanasia.


    As for the moral questions, they are a bad basis for law.
    Good laws are based on morals. Something that is morally wrong should be against the law.

  14. #14
    Banned Indefinitely

    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Posts
    9,345
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam
    This is wrong. The fetus has a unique set of DNA and is a completely different individual. Yes it cannot survive without nurturing and protection but neither can a newborn child.
    Your definition of "survive" is completely inapropriate in this situation. A newborn baby can survive outside the womb of its mother. Yes, it needs clothes, food, nurture, and protection. However, if you leave the baby on the couch it's not going to INSTANTLY EXPIRE the way a fetus would.

    Your comparison is invalid.

    However I believe any mother would choose life for their baby over their own if it came down to a choice. This is exactly the reason why abortion is so emotionally upsetting for a woman. She has to deny the fact that to terminate her pregnancy is against her very being as a woman. No woman wants to kill her child. Her feelings toward her child are exactly the opposite. As hard as she may try to deny it and justify her abortion those feelings are still there, sometimes hidden so deep she doesn't even know it.
    Thank you for imposing your morality onto others. Would you care to take another stab at this after acknowledging that all people are different and not all believe as you believe?

    I am not surprised that some feel this way. This is exacly what was predicted would happen when contraception was so widely accepted( after the invention of the birth control pill). It was predicted that women would become just sex objects. It makes sense if that is true that women would also be considered as just incubators. ARE YOU A WOMAN? DO YOU HAVE CHILDREN? Did you really feel that you were just an incubator. If you breastfed your baby were you just a nicely shaped bottle? It you want woman to have status and rights we must realize that we are more than just sex objects, incubators and bottles!
    2 Newsflashes: first, the sky is not falling, so check the drama.

    Second, neither abortion nor contraception is new. Condoms have been around for generations. Before that, there was other methods. The ancient Romans had a plant that, when ingested by a woman, blocked conception. The Romans loved it so much that they ate it into extinction.

    Finally, you have things COMPLETELY backwards. It is contraception and the woman's liberation movement that have allowed women to be seen as more than property / incubators. You should be thankful... or are you one of those "old fashioned" gals who believes in being barefoot and pregnant?

    That's how it used to be, luv. Do you have a job? An education? Then on behalf of contraception, you're welcome.

    You need to pinpoint the "time during the 2nd trimester". When exactly in the 2nd trimester does the fetus become a distinct individual? Until you can do this, your stance means nothing.
    Medical technology already has this worked out. Next.

    Good laws are based on morals. Something that is morally wrong should be against the law.
    Absolutely false. Good laws come from good logic / reason / research / practicality.

  15. #15
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    northeast
    Posts
    1,066
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric
    However, if you leave the baby on the couch it's not going to INSTANTLY EXPIRE the way a fetus would.
    To expire doesn't life have to be present first?





    Thank you for imposing your morality onto others. Would you care to take another stab at this after acknowledging that all people are different and not all believe as you believe?

    NO, I think you are the one that needs a second stab at my comment. Explaining a mother's feelings for her child is not imposing morality on anyone. Try again!





    2 Newsflashes: first, the sky is not falling, so check the drama.
    If you are at a loss for something to say it's probably best to say nothing.

    Second, neither abortion nor contraception is new. Condoms have been around for generations. Before that, there was other methods. The ancient Romans had a plant that, when ingested by a woman, blocked conception. The Romans loved it so much that they ate it into extinction.
    I have never said that contraception was new on this planet in the 1960's. But it wasn't until 1930 that churches began to accept contraception as morally permissible under very serious situations. Until then, yes there was contraception but in the minds of most people it was wrong to use it. Then came the birth control pill of the 1960's. This was considered such a blessing because women did not have to be tied down with kids. Casual sex was even easier now because of the effectiveness of the pill. Pope Paul VI predicted the things that would happen by accepting birth control. (I know you don't like me to mention religion but the pope is the one who predicted these things).



    Finally, you have things COMPLETELY backwards. It is contraception and the woman's liberation movement that have allowed women to be seen as more than property / incubators
    Yes, women did believe that the birth control pill of the 1960's would do this for them. Finally they did not have to be stuck home with kids and not feel appreciated. Women are finding out now that they were wrong. Many would love to stay home with their kids. Many feel used by their boyfriends who can't commit to marriage. Many who postponed having children for a career are finding that they cannot conceive. Infertility is very high, something we did not see before the pill. Probably the only ones that got any advantages out of the birth control pill in the long run were men.




    You should be thankful... or are you one of those "old fashioned" gals who believes in being barefoot and pregnant?

    I am an "old fashioned" gal and I think all women have at least a little bit of "old fashioned" in them. I don't believe a women should be barefoot and pregnant in the sense you mean. But women should be proud of who they are, which is different from men.



    That's how it used to be, luv. Do you have a job? An education?
    Yes. and Yes.






    Medical technology already has this worked out. Next.
    Next, is to tell me when medical technology determined when a fetus is viable.
    Last edited by Sam; October 14th, 2004 at 10:40 AM.

  16. #16
    Registered User

    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Pray for our troops
    Posts
    5,340
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Abortion is immoral, except when the very life of the mother is in jeopardy -- which is very rare with modern medicine.

    I am though pragmatic and am willing to allow for legal abortion in cases of rape, incest, and even if the female is below the legal age of consent.

    However, the rape vistim must report the rape to police and the abortiuon should be a "morning after pill". This will prevent women crying "rape" becuae they want an aborion.

    I am willing to make these concessions, only if it means eliminating the vast majority of victims of abortion today. Victims who are developing humans and are killed purely for the convenience of the "mother".

  17. #17
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    northeast
    Posts
    1,066
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus
    I am willing to make these concessions, only if it means eliminating the vast majority of victims of abortion today. Victims who are developing humans and are killed purely for the convenience of the "mother".

    There are two victims in every abortion. The baby who dies and the mother who has to live the rest of her life knowing what she has done.

  18. #18
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    I am omnipresent.
    Posts
    2,657
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Well, I'll post my views first, then go after those of others. It's been a while since we've had a good abortion debate here.

    Partial birth Abortion: I believe that this is wrong when used electively. This is what they use when the fetus is almost a baby, and what produces those horrific pictures that you see at anti-abortion sites. This was banned recently, a move which I don't think was too wise. While this is not a good thing, I believe that we should allow it when the baby, mother, or both, are in danger. Other than that, this procedure should not be allowed.

    As for elective abortion, I think that it is the choice of the woman. I don't think that the government should have any say in it. It should be allowed up until the point of viability, which has been medically determined to be shortly before the beginning of the third trimester.

    One of my unresolved problems, though, is that I believe that people who use abortion directly as a method of birth control should not be allowed to have it. These are the people who come for their 3rd, 4th, or 5th abortions. This should not be allowed, but I can't think of a fair way to legislate it. Perhaps simply not allowing more than 1 abortion. Now, on to your positions...
    -=]Iluvatar[=-
    Lurker, Former Staff

    "I'm not really here. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what's good for them."

  19. #19
    ODN Community Regular

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    I am omnipresent.
    Posts
    2,657
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam
    However I believe any mother would choose life for their baby over their own if it came down to a choice. This is exactly the reason why abortion is so emotionally upsetting for a woman. She has to deny the fact that to terminate her pregnancy is against her very being as a woman. No woman wants to kill her child. Her feelings toward her child are exactly the opposite. As hard as she may try to deny it and justify her abortion those feelings are still there, sometimes hidden so deep she doesn't even know it.
    I find that disturbing. Specifically the fact that you seem to think that you know exactly what everyone else thinks. Not only that, but you also see fit to think that there should be laws in place. based on your assumption that everyone else thinks exactly like you do. I find it odd that in the midst of a rather large and combative debate site, you claim that half of the world's population holds the same opinion as you. You justify this by saying that anyone who claims to differ with your opinions is simply denying or suppressing their true opinions. This is utterly absurd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sam
    Grandma has more of a right to live than mom. Mom has more of a right to live than me.
    Two grown people have equal rights. A grown person and a developing cluster of as-yet unformed cells do not.

    Many who postponed having children for a career are finding that they cannot conceive.
    And many who postponed a career to have children are finding that they cannot have a career.
    (I know you don't like me to mention religion but the pope is the one who predicted these things).
    No one minds you mentioning it, but I will caution you, that basing an argument on it does not work too well.
    But women should be proud of who they are, which is different from men.
    Good thing you cleared that up. You sure saved us all from a few very embarrassing moments
    -=]Iluvatar[=-
    Lurker, Former Staff

    "I'm not really here. Anyone who says otherwise doesn't know what's good for them."

  20. #20
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    northeast
    Posts
    1,066
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Abortion Stance

    Quote Originally Posted by Iluvatar
    Partial birth Abortion: I believe that this is wrong when used electively. This is what they use when the fetus is almost a baby, and what produces those horrific pictures that you see at anti-abortion sites
    Partial birth abortion can occur up until moments before birth. The baby is delivered in the breech position. All but the head is delivered. The doctor then inserts an instrument into the head of the baby and crushes the skull. The dead baby is than delivered. The fetus has been a baby for some time at this point. This is literally inches from being called murder.
    I don't know of any medical reason why this should be done.

 

 
Page 1 of 2 1 2 LastLast

Similar Threads

  1. After Abortion
    By Sam in forum Community Advice Forum
    Replies: 98
    Last Post: July 22nd, 2004, 01:28 AM
  2. Abortion, right or wrong
    By firesdeath in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: June 23rd, 2004, 05:12 PM
  3. Replies: 19
    Last Post: June 3rd, 2004, 06:47 AM
  4. Abortion
    By Jordan in forum Social Issues
    Replies: 88
    Last Post: May 30th, 2004, 05:07 PM
  5. Challenge: Abortion! [Already Started]
    By Iluvatar in forum General Debate
    Replies: 27
    Last Post: March 9th, 2004, 09:32 PM

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •