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  1. #61
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    But wait, there's more...

    I'm sure we can agree that: God either has limits or is limitless. So how do you choose one over the other?
    We don't need to. God can be limited, for us to conclude that there is one God we only need assume that He have sufficient power and time to create everything.

    To conclude more than one god, you have to assume the existence of yet another completely separate entity, every bit as complex. That is a much greater assumption than the assumption of sufficient power and time.
    I typically cite original research papers and reviews that are available only to a personal or institutional subscriptional. If you wish a PDF copy of the papers I cite, send me a request.

  2. #62
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by chadn737 View Post
    We don't need to. God can be limited, for us to conclude that there is one God we only need assume that He have sufficient power and time to create everything.

    To conclude more than one god, you have to assume the existence of yet another completely separate entity, every bit as complex. That is a much greater assumption than the assumption of sufficient power and time.
    Occam's Razor again. I see your point. But using this principle only highlights the PREFERRED theory over many equal theories, and does not necessarily expose absolute truth. So that means the POSSIBILITY of multiple Creators still stands, as well as my argument.

    Dang, I should have just said that earlier.

  3. #63
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Resorting to red text? Unfortunate. Just because you don't like my response doesn't mean it isn't there.
    I've quoted and addressed all your responses, while you have yet to respond to the two rebuttals I wrote. So you are the one pretending that my replies are not there. For the last time:
    1) There is no reason why a creator of the universe must be omnipotent or immortal. Just because he is not bound by the natural laws we see now doesn't mean his power is limitless - his abilities might be limited by his own inherent nature (e.g. a person might not be able to lift a rock not because doing so would transgress the laws of physics, but because he is inherently weak). Or there might be cosmic laws on the extra-universal level that apply to creator "gods".

    Nor does creating everything require or necessitate immunity to death. First, as stated above, there might be extra-universal laws that limit the lifespan of creators. Second, there is no reason to assume that a creator god would be immune to the laws he creates, such as the passage of time (assuming time started at the Creation) or the law of entropy. To use a human analogy, the legislature isn't exempt from the laws it passes.

    2) Your argument is circular - it assumes that the creator "created all things", which is exactly the premise that Wolf is disputing.
    You asked "How is it logical that an eternally existent Being, who created all matter, would cease to exist? If there is a God who created the universe, meaning time as well, since it is part of space, how could He die?" The above rebuttals fully address your question. Now answer them already.
    Trendem

  4. #64
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Myth View Post
    Instead of calling them "monuments" why not houses? The White House is a house first and a monument second. We have evidence that single builders have built houses. Do you agree?

    Yes, we do know the constraints. But these constraints do not keep a man from building a house by himself. These constraints might keep him from building very large buildings, however.
    Red Herrings. You have not addressed my claim that "we have more evidence that the White House would be built by multiple creators." You have stated that a "single builder hypothesis" has some evidence; but a "multiple builder hypothesis" still has more evidence. Thus, they have unequal evidence, and Occam's Razor is inapplicable.
    "Are you coming to bed?"
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    "Someone is wrong on the internet."
    -- from xkcd comic strip "Duty Calls": http://xkcd.com/386/

  5. #65
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    You have stated that a "single builder hypothesis" has some evidence; but a "multiple builder hypothesis" still has more evidence. Thus, they have unequal evidence, and Occam's Razor is inapplicable.
    I can't say for sure there is more evidence to support multiple builders over evidence to support single builders. I am not privy to all the construction records of every structure built since the dawn of Man. So, I challenge you to produce those records to back up your claim.

  6. #66
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem View Post
    It does. If he is not omnipotent, then he is not a "god" as commonly envisioned by theists, and this effectively refutes the cosmological argument for God. While refuting God's existence might not be the stated purpose of this thread, I have no doubt that it is the underlying purpose.
    Uhm... I dunno about that Tren. Lot's of gods in times past weren't omnipotent. Look at the Roman and Greek pantheons. Gods were always being duped by someone or other.

    God, as a generic term, tends to ecapsulate a powerful being that requires worship. Be it fear inspiring or benign.

    I'm not sure how many gods claim the omni-omni of the Christian set, but I know for a fact that not all of them do. As such, and speaking as a theist, your statement is not factually correct.
    But if you do not find an intelligent companion, a wise and well-behaved person going the same way as yourself, then go on your way alone, like a king abandoning a conquered kingdom, or like a great elephant in the deep forest. - Buddha

  7. #67
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Myth View Post
    I can't say for sure there is more evidence to support multiple builders over evidence to support single builders. I am not privy to all the construction records of every structure built since the dawn of Man. So, I challenge you to produce those records to back up your claim.
    I need not produce all the construction records for every worker to claim we have more evidence for the multiple builder hypothesis. It is enough to show that, in recent times, most buildings have been built by multiple builders. From Wikipedia:
    The practice of designing, constructing, and operating buildings is normally a collective effort of different groups of professionals and trades.
    Wikipedia then lists that most building teams may include people such as:A real estate developer who secures funding for the project; One or more financial institutions or other investors that provide the funding; Local planning and code authorities; A Surveyor who performs an ALTA/ACSM and construction surveys throughout the project; Construction managers who coordinate the effort of different groups of project participants; Licensed architects and engineers who provide building design and prepare construction documents; Landscape architects; Interior designers; Other consultants.

    If you now claim that a single builder is still possible, that would be a red herring, since my claim is that we have more evidence, i.e. it's more likely, that there were multiple builders. My argumeht that Occam's Razor is inapplicable to the White House case stands.
    "Are you coming to bed?"
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    "Someone is wrong on the internet."
    -- from xkcd comic strip "Duty Calls": http://xkcd.com/386/

  8. #68
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    There must be an infinite amount of creators, if any at all, as who is the creator's creator? Who is the creator's creator's creator, etc.? There is always something before anything you name.

    I also agree with the above post, construction is usually a collective effort.

  9. #69
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muse View Post
    since my claim is that we have more evidence, i.e. it's more likely, that there were multiple builders.
    LOL. And your evidence is...Wikipedia? Based on what I read it doesn't sound like they take in to consideration all the many small villages and tribes in remote areas in the world who might build small houses or other small structures.

    But, okay, I will bend on this point. I do think it's far more likely that most buildings have had multiple builders. I just wanted to see what kind of evidence you'd produce to prove it! I'd say it was an uninspired effort on your part, but entertaining nonetheless!

    It seems that Occam's Razor is the only principle that has been used here to prove the preference for one Creator. But it doesn't eliminate the possibility of multiple Creators, nor does it necessarily expose absolute truth. So my argument still stands as firm as ever.

  10. #70
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    Re: Is there more than one Creator?

    I think that multiple higher powers best explains the diversity in the world. I don't see why it is a greater assumption to think there is more than one god. If you are working under the assumption that it is possible for there to be a god then the existence of more than one being like that does not make the equation anymore complex. The monotheist position assumes that god(s) can exist and that there are no other such beings the polytheist positions assumes that god(s) can exist and that there is more than one.

    On the other hand I think that the assumption of the existence of an all-knowing, all-powerful god is a more complex assumption then a collection of higher powers than humans existing.

 

 
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