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  1. #61
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    I think it's less its lack of specificity and more that you completely discard the societally- and culturally-based level of harm that we're talking about. In so far as gay marriage discontinues the traditional institution of marriage, it most certainly harms that institution and its invested social values of a nuclear, child-bearing family with parents raising their biological children. It constitutes an ideological displacement of traditional marriage's place in society.

    That is harm to traditional marriage, whether you find that kind of harm acceptable or not, relevant or not.
    How does gay marriage harm the institution of traditional marriage? I, for one, am not making the connection. These gay couples already live together - the marriage is merely establishing the legality of the relationship. Traditional marriage, in the not too distant past, used to be a man and a woman of the same race. Now traditional means a man and a woman. And a few years from now, I suspect that traditional will come to mean two consenting adults.
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  2. #62
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    How does gay marriage harm the institution of traditional marriage? I, for one, am not making the connection. These gay couples already live together - the marriage is merely establishing the legality of the relationship. Traditional marriage, in the not too distant past, used to be a man and a woman of the same race. Now traditional means a man and a woman. And a few years from now, I suspect that traditional will come to mean two consenting adults.
    Emphasis mine.

    And I, for one, don't see the connection between the emphasized statements and anything that follows it. What is the logical impact against KB's reasoning? All this would indicate is that traditional marriage has been harmed in the past; you're not clashing.
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  3. #63
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    Emphasis mine.

    And I, for one, don't see the connection between the emphasized statements and anything that follows it. What is the logical impact against KB's reasoning? All this would indicate is that traditional marriage has been harmed in the past; you're not clashing.
    The argument is that gay marriage will harm traditional marriage. However, the only difference between a gay couple and a gay marriage is a piece of paper. The condition already exists. Is the argument then that gay relationships will cause additional harm to traditional marriage?

    The connection is that "traditional" is relative to the times. What Kevin views as traditional today, was not tradition a few years ago, or a few hundred years ago. The institution of traditional marriage has developed over the course of time as excluded inviduals from the "tradition" gain the same rights as those that are inclusive. Is today's institution the end all be all example of "traditional marriage"? Hardly.

    In addition, when we talk about marriage in these instances, we are basically talking about legal rights that couples of the opposite gender enjoy (or not). Gay couples are already romantically involved; gay couples are already raising children. Gay couples are for all intensive purposes "married." If there is harm being done, then it is already happening.
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  4. #64
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    The argument is that gay marriage will harm traditional marriage. However, the only difference between a gay couple and a gay marriage is a piece of paper. The condition already exists. Is the argument then that gay relationships will cause additional harm to traditional marriage?
    The promotion of gay relationships would harm a traditional cultural understanding invested in heterosexual relationships, yes, and thus possibly displace heterosexual marriage as well, since it is considered an ultimate form of relations between individuals; here, however, the point is that the promotion of gay marriage would harm traditional marriage's place in our society, and the current presence of gay relationships doesn't alter result.

    The connection is that "traditional" is relative to the times. What Kevin views as traditional today, was not tradition a few years ago, or a few hundred years ago.
    Of course.
    The institution of traditional marriage has developed over the course of time as excluded inviduals from the "tradition" gain the same rights as those that are inclusive. Is today's institution the end all be all example of "traditional marriage"? Hardly.
    Again, I have to press you as to the logical relevance of these statements. All this would indicate, if given as true, is that traditional marriage has been harmed and displaced several times throughout history. It doesn't change clash with KB's argumentation that discontinuation constitutes harm; if anything, it supports it.

    In addition, when we talk about marriage in these instances, we are basically talking about legal rights that couples of the opposite gender enjoy (or not). Gay couples are already romantically involved; gay couples are already raising children. Gay couples are for all intensive purposes "married." If there is harm being done, then it is already happening.
    See my response to the first quotation.
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  5. #65
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    I think it's less its lack of specificity and more that you completely discard the societally- and culturally-based level of harm that we're talking about. In so far as gay marriage discontinues the traditional institution of marriage, it most certainly harms that institution and its invested social values of a nuclear, child-bearing family with parents raising their biological children. It constitutes an ideological displacement of traditional marriage's place in society.
    So are you saying nuclear child-rearing families are going to be harmed on some level?

    Allowing a different kind of marriage does not harm the traditional marriages. Gays getting married does not mean that straight people will not get married and refrain from having and raising children after they marry.

    Gays marrying will not contribute to straights getting divorced - I'm sure when couples get divorced and the reasons are listed, gay marriage will not be at the top of the list.

    So again, what specific harm are you talking about?

    I see no support for your claim, even theoretical, about the harm that will happen to marriage.

  6. #66
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So are you saying nuclear child-rearing families are going to be harmed on some level?

    Allowing a different kind of marriage does not harm the traditional marriages. Gays getting married does not mean that straight people will not get married and refrain from having and raising children after they marry.

    Gays marrying will not contribute to straights getting divorced - I'm sure when couples get divorced and the reasons are listed, gay marriage will not be at the top of the list.

    So again, what specific harm are you talking about?

    I see no support for your claim, even theoretical, about the harm that will happen to marriage.
    It seems we're just talking past each other. You simply do not find the level of harm indicated by KB's argumentation to be relevant. You continue to ask for harm done to individual marriages at the micro-level when KB's argumentation discusses harm done to the institution of marriage at the societal, macro-level.

    I don't think there's anything left to be said. You just don't consider the discontinuation of an institution to be harm against that institution, and that's that.
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  7. #67
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    It seems we're just talking past each other. You simply do not find the level of harm indicated by KB's argumentation to be relevant.
    But he has not spelled out any particular harm. He's thrown out a vague term and says it causes harm but has not given any kind of example of the actual harm it's supposed to cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    You continue to ask for harm done to individual marriages at the micro-level when KB's argumentation discusses harm done to the institution of marriage at the societal, macro-level.
    There is no such thing as harm at the macro-level that will not have any effect at the micro-level.

    For instance recession and inflation are macro-level and when they happen it is noticeable at the micro-level.

    Macro-level harm that has NO EFFECT at the micro-level is not harm.


    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    I don't think there's anything left to be said. You just don't consider the discontinuation of an institution to be harm against that institution, and that's that.
    I would consider a "discontinuation" to mean a stoppage. When a product is "discontinued" you no longer find it on the shelf.

    Obviously no one's seriously suggesting that gay marriage will "discontinue" straight marriage or child-rearing.

    So I have to ask - what do you mean when you say gay marriage will "discontinue" the institution of marriage? If you don't even know what you mean, then you have not made an argument.

  8. #68
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    The promotion of gay relationships would harm a traditional cultural understanding invested in heterosexual relationships, yes, and thus possibly displace heterosexual marriage as well, since it is considered an ultimate form of relations between individuals; here, however, the point is that the promotion of gay marriage would harm traditional marriage's place in our society, and the current presence of gay relationships doesn't alter result.
    How does legalized gay marriage equate to promotion? And how are heterosexual marriages displaced? These are claims; please provide evidence for the claim, otherwise they are invalid. This sounds more like "the sky is falling" rather than an actual argument.
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  9. #69
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem
    a) Yes, you did. In fact, you alluded to the social instability argument multiple times, for example here:

    Your argument doesn't follow. Just because there are "limitless possible effects" of having society undermined doesn't mean that the statement "undermine societal stability" is not specific. Indeed, if there are limitless possible effects then stating that gay marriage may cause instability is perfectly reasonable.

    I submit that the above is a slippery slope fallacy.
    You misunderstand. Mican stated that there were "there are limitless possible effects" of instability in a society, I was simply stating that if such was the case, my scenario of harm was valid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem
    You have failed to show how gay marriage is likely to lead to social instability.
    I never claimed that it would, in fact, as I've done in the past, I would be the first to say that it's impossible to prove.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem
    Merely claiming that something is possible is grossly insufficient for any discussion, since anything is possible by default, unless proven otherwise. It is possible that gay marriage would result in global warming or widespread infertility or kittens being slaughtered en masse.
    Then you should take it up with Mican, I was merely providing an answer to his question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem
    Thus, a more sensible interpretation of Mican's OP would be to read it as a challenge for gay marriage opponents to demonstrate a specific harm to the institution of marriage that will likely result from allowing gay marriage.
    That's not at all what he asked, I'm much more inclined to take his argument at face value rather than to try to read into some implied challenge. If he really wanted to pose such a challenge, he could have easily done so by removing the word "possible" from his question, but he made it perfectly clear that he was looking for a scenario of possible harm. Either way, I'm not obliged to interpret his question in the way you have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem
    Then what is your claim exactly?
    Why do you assume I made a claim? I haven't, I only responded to Mican's question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trendem
    That gay marriage might possibly undermine social stability? If so, then your position is bankrupt, since gay marriage might possibly lead to an infinite number of unsavoury events. Merely claiming that something is possible does not constitute a convincing argument against gay marriage.
    Again, this is a misunderstanding; I haven't constructed an argument against gay marriage. If you want to debate the likelihood of harm resulting from gay marriage, I suggest you create another thread. Personally, I'd say it's very difficult to prove the likelihood of harm resulting or not resulting, based on the lack of definite evidence either way. The reports of the effects of gay marriage in countries where it is legal are conflicting and confusing.
    Last edited by Dela Cruz; June 24th, 2008 at 03:17 AM.
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  10. #70
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fangrim View Post
    In so far as gay marriage discontinues the traditional institution of marriage,
    You make it sound like gay marriage is replacing hetero marriage. Like all so-called traditional marriage will stop and only gay marriages will occur.
    I'm sure you'll agree that is not the case.

  11. #71
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    You misunderstand. Mican stated that there were "there are limitless possible effects" of instability in a society, I was simply stating that if such was the case, my scenario of harm was valid.
    To repeat. I never concede that there was harm. My point is IF "undermining society" was a valid concern (either as something to be worried about or something that would even happen), someone should be able to come up with specific examples of this happening. There are limitless possible effects of society being undermined.

    Not being able to come up with one of those examples shows that either "undermining society" is too vague to seriously consider or that it wouldn't happen.

    Until someone can come up with a specific example of harm, no valid argument has been made that harm would even occur. Every macro-level harm results in micro-level harm. Economic slow-downs (macro-level) is noticed at the micro level (people getting laid off).


    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    That's not at all what he asked, I'm much more inclined to take his argument at face value rather than to try to read into some implied challenge. If he really wanted to pose such a challenge, he could have easily done so by removing the word "possible" from his question, but he made it perfectly clear that he was looking for a scenario of possible harm. Either way, I'm not obliged to interpret his question in the way you have.
    Well, I thought the definition of "specific" was clear, but when it appeared you didn't get it, I later defined the argument further to show the level of specificity that I meant and why I require that level of specificity.

    To repeat - if one cannot provide a level of harm that would be noticed by anyone, then there's no argument that harm has occurred. At that point you either have to provide specific (as I defined specific) harm or concede that there is no specific harm and thus you don't have any argument that there will be harm at all.

  12. #72
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    To repeat. I never concede that there was harm. My point is IF "undermining society" was a valid concern (either as something to be worried about or something that would even happen), someone should be able to come up with specific examples of this happening.
    And I fully disagree with your implication that the lack of specific examples illustrates a lack of harm. Furthermore, I have yet to see your reasoning as to why specific examples of harm trump general ones. Also, if as you say there are limitless possible effects of social instability, that's enough to complete my argument. There is no reason why I should have to name the effects if you already know them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    At that point you either have to provide specific (as I defined specific) harm or concede that there is no specific harm and thus you don't have any argument that there will be harm at all.
    I will concede that I can't provide you with specific examples of harm as per your rather absurd definition.
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  13. #73
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    And I fully disagree with your implication that the lack of specific examples illustrates a lack of harm. Furthermore, I have yet to see your reasoning as to why specific examples of harm trump general ones. Also, if as you say there are limitless possible effects of social instability, that's enough to complete my argument. There is no reason why I should have to name the effects if you already know them.
    How about this...

    Person A: "I caused harm to your dog."
    Person B: "What did you do?"
    Person A: "I broke its leg."

    This would provide the specifics of the type of harm caused to the dog. Now, Person A can say "I caused harm to your dog." and Person B does not need to know the details; however, when Person B looks at the dog he will still see the specific harm, the broken leg.

    =====

    Person A looks at Person B's dog and it just sits there...no changes or reaction by the dog.
    Person B: "You caused harm to my dog!"
    Person A: "How?"
    Person B: "You just did. You caused it harm"
    Person A: "Tell me what harm I caused to your dog..."
    Person B: "..."

    Did person A cause any harm to the dog just because person B says so?

    ====

    Specific examples of harm do not TRUMP the general statement of harm. Specific examples explain in detail the general harm.

  14. #74
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    And I fully disagree with your implication that the lack of specific examples illustrates a lack of harm. Furthermore, I have yet to see your reasoning as to why specific examples of harm trump general ones.
    They don't trump each other - they tie together.

    There can be no wide-scale general harm without harm at the individual level. For example - wide-scale economic problems will cause harm at the individual level. If no one loses their job or have to pay more their food, etc. then obviously there is not a wide-scale economic problem.

    And the same with "social instability". IF that happens, then there will be noticeable effects. If there are no noticeable effects of social instability then there actually is no social instability at all.

    So until someone does provide at least an example of the social instability caused by gay marriage, the argument that such a thing will even take place fails for lack of support.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    Also, if as you say there are limitless possible effects of social instability, that's enough to complete my argument. There is no reason why I should have to name the effects if you already know them.
    Well, you'll have to name one if you are going to support the argument that gay marriage will cause social instability.

    I already threw out anarchy but we both agree that while this is a valid example of social instability, it is not one that would occur through gay marriage.

    And while I can think of other specific examples of social instability, I can't think of one that could reasonably be argued to occur through gay marriage. Without such an example, the argument that social instability would even occur is completely unsupported.

    So my point is if gay marriage is going to cause harm, in what form will that harm take place? Without specific (small-scale) examples of harm there is no support for the argument that there will be more generalized harm.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    I will concede that I can't provide you with specific examples of harm as per your rather absurd definition.
    Then you must likewise concede that harmful social instability will likewise not occur.

    Unless you are going to argue that somehow large-scale harm can occur without causing any harm on a smaller scale. And if that is your argument, please give me an example of this.

    And it's really "absurd" to argue that harm that no one individually will notice is not actually harm (regardless of scale)?
    Last edited by mican333; June 24th, 2008 at 09:37 AM.

  15. #75
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    Well, you'll have to name one if you are going to support the argument that gay marriage will cause social instability.
    Firstly, I never made that argument, don't try to put words in my mouth. Second, I don't need to name one at all, you already admitted that plentiful harmful effects exist as a result of harm to social instability, thus, my argument stands.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    Then you must likewise concede that harmful social instability will likewise not occur.
    Absolutely not, that is a vile contortion of my concession, and it does not at all follow at all from what I said. Simply because I cannot predict with confidence exact, specific events of harm that would result from gay marriage, doesn't mean that harm will not occur, it just means that I don't have the available knowledge to make such predictions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    Unless you are going to argue that somehow large-scale harm can occur without causing any harm on a smaller scale. And if that is your argument, please give me an example of this.
    Once again, you are wrong. The only reason I can't provide you with a specific example is because 1) gay marriage hasn't been legal in many countries for long, thus sufficient data is not available; and 2) because even if gay marriage caused specific examples of harm, it would be impossible to prove causation, the only evidence which could be shown is correlative data, which of course you would dismiss. Even if gay marriage did or does cause harm, it would be impossible to trace it back to the radical change to the institution of marriage. So obviously, I can't possibly give you an exact example of what specific harm may occur.
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  16. #76
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    Firstly, I never made that argument, don't try to put words in my mouth. Second, I don't need to name one at all, you already admitted that plentiful harmful effects exist as a result of harm to social instability, thus, my argument stands.

    Absolutely not, that is a vile contortion of my concession, and it does not at all follow at all from what I said. Simply because I cannot predict with confidence exact, specific events of harm that would result from gay marriage, doesn't mean that harm will not occur, it just means that I don't have the available knowledge to make such predictions.
    Which also means you don't have the means to make such a claim.

    But what can you predict with any confidence? And what supports this confidence?

    Once again, you are wrong. The only reason I can't provide you with a specific example is because 1) gay marriage hasn't been legal in many countries for long, thus sufficient data is not available; and 2) because even if gay marriage caused specific examples of harm, it would be impossible to prove causation, the only evidence which could be shown is correlative data, which of course you would dismiss. Even if gay marriage did or does cause harm, it would be impossible to trace it back to the radical change to the institution of marriage. So obviously, I can't possibly give you an exact example of what specific harm may occur.
    To me... it looks like you are sweeping your own legs out from underneath you...

    You cannot expect to have a valid argument with no substance. If this is how we are going to debate you can say...

    Legalization of Gay Marriage will speed up global warming and I won't be able to provide you with a specific example of this because... "1) gay marriage hasn't been legal in many countries for long, thus sufficient data is not available; and 2) because even if gay marriage caused specific examples of speeding up global warming, it would be impossible to prove causation, the only evidence which could be shown is correlative data, which of course you would dismiss."

    Would you stand by this argument?

  17. #77
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenape
    Which also means you don't have the means to make such a claim.
    Nor have I ever made such a claim.

    Quote Originally Posted by thegreenape
    Legalization of Gay Marriage will speed up global warming and I won't be able to provide you with a specific example of this because... "1) gay marriage hasn't been legal in many countries for long, thus sufficient data is not available; and 2) because even if gay marriage caused specific examples of speeding up global warming, it would be impossible to prove causation, the only evidence which could be shown is correlative data, which of course you would dismiss."

    Would you stand by this argument?
    Of course not, I'd wreck it. Sadly for you, my argument follows an entirely different pattern than the one you showed. To begin with, I never said "Legalization of Gay Marriage will" do anything. On the contrary, I admitted that I couldn't provide a specific example (as per Mican's definition).
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  18. #78
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    Firstly, I never made that argument, don't try to put words in my mouth. Second, I don't need to name one at all, you already admitted that plentiful harmful effects exist as a result of harm to social instability, thus, my argument stands.
    Your argument is that my argument is wrong. And my argument is:

    1. No one has given a specific, realistic example of harm that might occur through gay marriage. When you turned it into a semantics argument about what "specific" means - I provided the level of specificity I was referring to (harm that is "specific" enough for people to notice it). Obviously "social instability" is a very general term and therefore does not qualify as "specific". So as far as that goes, my argument stands.

    2. An additional argument but one that my previous argument applies to and backs up - there is no such thing as wide-scale general harm without harm being noticed on the individual level. If any claimed "wide-scale" harm cannot be evidenced, then the claim that there is any harm at any level is unevidenced and the claim fails for lack of support. This is the current status of the claim of gay marriage causing "social instability". I understand that it's likely impossible to prove with evidence that any harm WILL occur so all I'm asking for is a reasonably realistic (and specific) scenario of harm that MIGHT occur. If no one can provide that then the argument that gay marriage might cause harm fails for lack of support.



    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    Simply because I cannot predict with confidence exact, specific events of harm that would result from gay marriage, doesn't mean that harm will not occur, it just means that I don't have the available knowledge to make such predictions.
    I'm not asking for evidence that something in particular WILL occur.

    I'm asking for something bad that might realistically occur. If no one can even dream up a semi-realistic scenario of harm, then the argument that harm is likely to occur fails.

    So drop the excuse that all of the data is not in. I'm not asking you prove anything WILL happen. All I'm asking for is for someone to present a reasonable and specific scenario of harm that could occur if gay marriage is legalized.

    If no one can present such a scenario then as far as this thread goes, it's safe to say that not much harm (if any) will be caused by gay marriage.
    Last edited by mican333; June 24th, 2008 at 10:45 AM.

  19. #79
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    2. An additional argument but one that my previous argument applies to and backs up - there is no such thing as wide-scale general harm without harm being noticed on the individual level. If any claimed "wide-scale" harm cannot be evidenced, then the claim that there is any harm at any level is unevidenced and the claim fails for lack of support. This is the current status of the claim of gay marriage causing "social instability".
    Once again, the often repeated statement about how I made a claim rears it's ugly head.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    I'm asking for something bad that might realistically occur. If no one can even dream up a semi-realistic scenario of harm, then the argument that harm is likely to occur fails.
    And again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    So drop the excuse that all of the data is not in. I'm not asking you prove anything WILL happen. All I'm asking for is for someone to present a reasonable and specific scenario of harm that could occur if gay marriage is legalized.
    This doesn't affect my reasoning one bit. I can't pinpoint to your satisfaction specific effects of harm whch may result from gay marriage when I don't have ample knowledge or information to do so. And quite frankly, I don't need to.
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    Nor have I ever made such a claim.
    Your claim, it seems, is that gay marriage harms social stability is enough to fulfill Mican's question but you cannot provide any possible examples or scenarios where this may be the case. If you cannot do so, you cannot make the claim.

    Just like my global warming example, if I cannot provide any possible examples, then I cannot make the claim.

    However, I could say that this will cause more gay couples to drive their cars to court houses, release more carbon dioxide into the atmosphere. Plus, more marriage certificates will need to be printed, cutting down more trees, tearing down more forests and speeding up global warming.

    See, those are specific examples of what the general claim "legalizing marriage would speed up global warming" would look like. This is much more than you have provided for yourself.

 

 
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