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  1. #1
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    SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Here is one issue that I've NEVER (as far I recall) got a solid answer on and I have to assume that my side of this debate is unassailable.

    But before I declare that there is NO specific harm to straight marriage by allowing/recognizing gay marriage, I thought I'd give anyone who holds the other view a chance to make their argument.

    So SPECIFICALLY, how will gay marriage possibly harm marriage in general?

    I've already heard overly vague claims of harm and when I asked what they mean as far as specific harm (something someone who's not bigoted against gays would notice and feel that their own marriages or marriage in general has been harmed on some level), the debate ends there.

    For instance, I've heard "it will change the definition of marriage". Okay, but if that's suppose to be a undeniably bad thing, then it needs to be explained what that means in reality and how it will cause harm. The most literal interpretation of that claim is that there will be a change in the dictionary in the future which of course will not harm marriage.

    Or "it will cheapen marriage". Again, specifically what does that mean? Do our marriages have a financial cost to them which will decrease if gays marry?

    So again, until someone can provide a realistic and specific scenario of harm to a marriage or marriage in general that can be caused by gay marriage, the position that no harm will come to straight marriage by allowing/recognizing gay marriage stands.

    (And I realize that perhaps someone did present an argument in the past and I'm not aware of it but since this thread is specifically about this one particular issue, please repeat it here).

  2. #2
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by mican333 View Post
    So SPECIFICALLY, how will gay marriage possibly harm marriage in general?
    If gays are allowed to marry, straight people who don't like gays will feel insulted. This is, apparently, a horrible threat to marriage.

  3. #3
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    If gays are allowed to marry, straight people who don't like gays will feel insulted.
    That's about as strong an argument about the "harm" caused by gay marriage that can reasonably be made as far as I can see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric View Post
    This is, apparently, a horrible threat to marriage.
    And that, apparently, is sarcasm.

  4. #4
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    People who marry aren't required to have children so it's not harming our birth rate.

    People can get married at drive through windows in Las Vegas and divorced in minutes online... so clearly Christians aren't worried about marriage getting any cheaper.

    There really is no other explanation.

  5. #5
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    What can you do when you want to get married and you can't? If there is discrimination against same sex marriage, that is because people are not used to it, because they do not accept there is love between two same sex people. If they are allowed to have sex together - I'll take that as a given - then what is to stop them from being married? Marriage is about love shared between two people that want to spend the rest of their life together, so loving someone that is the same sex as you and spending the rest of your life with them is exactly what the Gay people are doing. It is a commitment, or was orignally a commitment between two lovers. God did not come out of heaven and say to people that they could get married, Adam and Eve weren't married, it is a natural human concept that two people are commited to one another, so, what is wrong with two recessive people sharing their life together, officially? That is the problem, that it is official. Of course when you first got married the wife wasn't protected by the state, but now they are, if the right documentation is found of course. So marriage has made it out of the concept of people living together and made it official that two people are living together, so what's wrong with making it official?
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  6. #6
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Because gay marriage will cause churches to lose their federal tax exempt status. This is because churches discriminate against gay people. Case in point: (from NPR) A gay couple wanted to get married on a boardwalk pavillion in NJ, where gay marriage is legal. A Methodist church owns the pavillion and uses it for religious services, but it is also available to the public. The church told the lesbian couple, no. The honest reason was given to them: because they are gay.

    So, like anyone in America who doesn't get what they want, the couple sued. The result - the church lost their federal exemption. Why? Generally the rule is that if you receive federal benefits, then you must abide by the anti-discriminatory policies of the federal government.

    This whole thing is going to play out rather interestingly: will religious institutions be able to practice what the preach if they want to maintain tax exempt status. Either we are going to see the church changing their views, or the tax coffers are going to get a little bit bigger. My guess, the former.
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  7. #7
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Same sex marriage doesn't have to harm traditional marriage, in some literal sense of causing more heterosexual couples to divorce, to be wrong. Society may simply decide that it violates and weakens traditional values and thus shouldn't be condoned by the government. It doesn't continue the traditional system of biological parents raising children, which is the fundamental building block of our social structure. Why should the government endorse a practice which is insidious to the very basis of how society is organized?

  8. #8
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Same sex marriage doesn't have to harm traditional marriage, in some literal sense of causing more heterosexual couples to divorce, to be wrong. Society may simply decide that it violates and weakens traditional values and thus shouldn't be condoned by the government. It doesn't continue the traditional system of biological parents raising children, which is the fundamental building block of our social structure. Why should the government endorse a practice which is insidious to the very basis of how society is organized?
    How does gay marriage inhibit the "traditional system of biological parents raising children"? Gay marriage is not taking anything away, unless you are suggesting there are lot of closet gay folk currently married to the opposite gender and raising children. Is this your claim?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  9. #9
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    Gay marriage is not taking anything away, unless you are suggesting there are lot of closet gay folk currently married to the opposite gender and raising children. Is this your claim?
    Of course not. It's pretty simple, same sex marriage is not traditional marriage. Therefore it lends credence to the idea that traditional marriage is just one alternative and not the fundamental and important system which forms our society. It does more damage to traditional marriage ideologically than it has already sustained by high divorce rates.

  10. #10
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Of course not. It's pretty simple, same sex marriage is not traditional marriage. Therefore it lends credence to the idea that traditional marriage is just one alternative and not the fundamental and important system which forms our society. It does more damage to traditional marriage ideologically than it has already sustained by high divorce rates.
    I understand your point. But traditional marriage between a man and woman is not going to be hindered by gay marriage. If people are heterosexual, they are going to have a "traditional" marriage. If people are gay, then they are going to do the alternative marriage. You need to understand that these relationships are already out there, for years and years and years. The marriage merely allows gay couples to be able to make decisions for each other that traditional couples don't have to think twice about, particularly in death.

    Are you suggesting that the allowing of gay marriages might "turn" some people, especially youth, gay?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  11. #11
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy View Post
    You need to understand that these relationships are already out there, for years and years and years.
    I know that, but why should the government have to sanction these minority relationships which fly in the face of traditional systems and values? Isn't just leaving them alone enough? The Supreme Court already revoked the sodomy laws in 2003.

    Are you suggesting that the allowing of gay marriages might "turn" some people, especially youth, gay?
    No, but it may encourage homosexual youths to indulge in homosexual acts. It certainly won't decrease them.

  12. #12
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Same sex marriage doesn't have to harm traditional marriage, in some literal sense of causing more heterosexual couples to divorce, to be wrong. Society may simply decide that it violates and weakens traditional values and thus shouldn't be condoned by the government. It doesn't continue the traditional system of biological parents raising children, which is the fundamental building block of our social structure. Why should the government endorse a practice which is insidious to the very basis of how society is organized?
    So adoption should be outlawed because it is not children being raised by the biological parents.
    No, but it may encourage homosexual youths to indulge in homosexual acts. It certainly won't decrease them.
    If for one think it would be a very positive effect if legalizing same-sex marriage could help teens to come to terms with their true sexuality instead of dealing with the pain and confusion that struggling with it for a long time can produce.

  13. #13
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    I know that, but why should the government have to sanction these minority relationships which fly in the face of traditional systems and values? Isn't just leaving them alone enough? The Supreme Court already revoked the sodomy laws in 2003.
    I am really curious as to what "values" you are talking about specifically?

    No, but it may encourage homosexual youths to indulge in homosexual acts. It certainly won't decrease them.
    But what is the problem here? I would agree that people under the age of consent shouldn't engage in any type of sex. However, at the age of consent they should do as they please. You have yet to demonstrate how sex between the same gender harms society.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  14. #14
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Same sex marriage doesn't have to harm traditional marriage, in some literal sense of causing more heterosexual couples to divorce, to be wrong. Society may simply decide that it violates and weakens traditional values and thus shouldn't be condoned by the government. It doesn't continue the traditional system of biological parents raising children, which is the fundamental building block of our social structure. Why should the government endorse a practice which is insidious to the very basis of how society is organized?
    Moreover, you don't have to be married to have children nor raise them. So, marriage doesn't provide some 'right' to conceive or raise children. Two people, if they decided, could have children and raise them without ever being married.

    So, the traditional system of biological parents raising children doesn't hinge on marriage, it hinges on the commitment of the parents raising the children.

    In addition, gay people do not affect the right or ability for heterosexual couples to get married or raise children. Considering that people have been gay for as long as history has gone and it is more and more accepted, the majority of gay people are not interfering with heterosexual relationships or children rearing experience.

  15. #15
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Same-sex marriage harms no one, and does not degrade society or whatever. Two gays being married is no different then them living together except that they get tax benefits. I understand that here in California, the economy has benefited greatly from all the weddings being performed. More weddings equals more state revenue. Not too shabby.

    But I can't believe people really care if gays get married. I don't understand what the problem is. Live and let live, for crying out loud. This is America. Land of Free, if you haven't heard.

  16. #16
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Society may simply decide that it violates and weakens traditional values and thus shouldn't be condoned by the government.
    But that's not based on any demonstrable harm - that's just based on people's opinions on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    It doesn't continue the traditional system of biological parents raising children, which is the fundamental building block of our social structure.
    It doesn't alter or harm it in any way either.

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning View Post
    Why should the government endorse a practice which is insidious to the very basis of how society is organized?
    Tell me specifically how homosexuality will harm society's organization.

  17. #17
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mican
    Tell me specifically how homosexuality will harm society's organization.
    That's not what you asked for earlier though Mican, your challenge was:

    So SPECIFICALLY, how will gay marriage possibly harm marriage in general?

    KB has given an example of how gay marriage would possibly cause harm, thus your request has been answered. I don't think anyone claims to know for sure that gay marriage will undermine the 'basis for society', most opposition is based on the belief that harm to the social structure will result, which in turn is based on the possibility of it happening, some just see the possibility of being greater than others do, it all depends on your worldview. It's pretty simple to see why people who think society is made up and sustained by traditional organizations and institutions believe that a radical change to such an institutions will weaken social stability, while those who don't hold such a view of how society works hold a completely different view.
    Last edited by Dela Cruz; June 17th, 2008 at 11:16 PM.
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  18. #18
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    That's not what you asked for earlier though Mican, your challenge was:

    So SPECIFICALLY, how will gay marriage possibly harm marriage in general?

    KB has given an example of how gay marriage would possibly cause harm, thus your request has been answered. I don't think anyone claims to know for sure that gay marriage will undermine the 'basis for society', most opposition is based on the belief that harm to the social structure will result, which in turn is based on the possibility of it happening, some just see the possibility of being greater than others do, it all depends on your worldview. It's pretty simple to see why people who think society is made up and sustained by traditional organizations and institutions believe that a radical change to such an institutions will weaken social stability, while those who don't hold such a view of how society works hold a completely different view.
    KB has yet to answer the question. He makes a statement of opinion with no evidence to back it up. "Possible harm" is not a reason to not do something. In fact, evidence to the contrary exists with interracial marriages and the opposition against it. As of 1967, some states still had laws against it. America hasn't fallen apart because of interracial marriages.

    KB has yet to state what values gay marriage contradicts. I would be really interested in understanding these "values". But I suspect that this is a because the Bible says so moment. If that's the reason, then I counter with let God be the judge of those who choose this path, as it really doesn't harm anyone else.

    I would also add that a "worldview" is just an opinion as well. Just because one holds a particular worldview doesn't make it right or wrong, just an opinion on how the world should be. KB admits that these relationships have been going on, but they don't need to be out in the open. Why? Because it contradicts an interpretion of the Bible?
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  19. #19
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    KB has given an example of how gay marriage would possibly cause harm, thus your request has been answered.
    "Undermine the basis of society" is NOT specific.

    The most literal interpretation of that would be that society will descend into anarchy and I doubt he's seriously suggesting that would happen (I suppose I should add "realistic" to "specific" when asking about what kind of harm he/you are talking about).

    So if you mean society will descend into anarchy, say that. If you mean something else, tell me SPECIFICALLY what you mean.


    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    I don't think anyone claims to know for sure that gay marriage will undermine the 'basis for society', most opposition is based on the belief that harm to the social structure will result, which in turn is based on the possibility of it happening, some just see the possibility of being greater than others do, it all depends on your worldview.
    Just "harm" is not specific, obviously. Specifically what harm are you talking about?


    Quote Originally Posted by Dela Cruz View Post
    It's pretty simple to see why people who think society is made up and sustained by traditional organizations and institutions believe that a radical change to such an institutions will weaken social stability, while those who don't hold such a view of how society works hold a completely different view.
    And I'm asking them SPECIFICALLY what harm are they talking about.

    So far all answers have been very general and vague. It's interesting that this thread only confirms what I said in the OP - no one seems to be able to give me a specific answer.

  20. #20
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    Re: SPECIFICALLY, how does gay marriage harm straight marriage?

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy
    KB has yet to answer the question. He makes a statement of opinion with no evidence to back it up.
    KB did answer the question. Mican asked for a scenario of possible harm, and KevinBrowning gave one.

    Quote Originally Posted by snackboy
    I would also add that a "worldview" is just an opinion as well. Just because one holds a particular worldview doesn't make it right or wrong, just an opinion on how the world should be.
    You misunderstand what I meant by the term "worldview". I didn't mean a view of how the world should be, I was speaking of people's beliefs about the makeup of the world and society and how it functions. As Conservatives hold traditons and traditional institutions to be important to societal stability, they view attempts to radically change such things as dangerous or harmful.
    "Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do"
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