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  1. #1
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    Convince an Independant

    I'm an independent and one of the undecided voters you hear so much about. I've been keeping up with the posts on the McCain v Obama thread but I really haven't posted anything of substance myself. It seems, however, that the thread doesn't really make much progress due to candidate bashing rather than issues talking.

    A little history behind where I'm at in deciding who to vote for. During the primaries, I was for Barrack Obama for the dems, and not really impressed by the republicans showing at all. I was for Barrack because I liked the idea of an academic, thoughtful president in contrast to what we've been used to for the past eight years. I also liked his social views. I was disappointed when the Rev. Wright story broke and nearly had me repenting my support. The republicans, on the other hand, didn't seem very charged during their primaries...acting like a bunch of stiffs. They had oppressive social views in my opinion, and many were changing their views to suit their goals.

    My current position. So now it's either McCain or Obama. Some attributes, some negatives...

    McCain - attributes
    - Works well under stress
    - Clear and concise when speaking on the issues (actually takes a position clearly, and doesn't say "um" a thousand times when trying to complete a thought.
    - Experience (both political and executive; military command)
    - Foreign political knowledge

    McCain- negatives
    - OLD (I've met him in person, early in the morning and without makeup etc...he is freaking old) All of the young attire and baseball caps can't make him look and be perceived otherwise.
    - Combative (has an "us vs. them" mentality) world view
    - pandering (to the extreme right and Christian orgs.)

    Obama - attributes
    - respect (for other cultures and ideas)
    - eloquent (finally a president who can speak properly)
    - seeks to change the tempo in Washington (hopefully he would follow up on this)
    - extremely competent wife v. McCains (everyone knows the key to a good pres. is having this support and says a lot about the person in general)
    - can overcome obstacles well

    Obama - negatives
    - prone to scandal/questionable associations
    - inexperience
    - cocky personae
    - although he sounds good, does he really ever say much of substance?

    So these are my immediate thoughts on the issue...(note I didn't mention social views under attributes or negatives because that would simply be my opinion).


    Now, on behalf of independents and those who haven't decided yet, can you present arguments for why we should vote for your candidate without basing arguments mostly on why not to vote for the other? This is your forum to convince us undecided voters...

  2. #2
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    In order for you to decide, and for us to maybe offer some input, I think it is necessary for you to share with us how you view the job as president.

    Constitutionally, the president has total control of the US military and little else -- but that job is huge. The president is also the leader of US foreign policy.

    That is what the job is Constitutionally, and Clinton learned the hard way that the job is almost completely about the military and foreign policy. Very rarely can a president affect domestic policy except for sheer force of persuasion.

    Perhaps the greatest impact of domestic issues is the power of the president to appoint Supreme Court Justices. Where do you stand on that? DO you think the Constitution should be interpreted strictly, or do you think judges should legislate from the bench?

    Also -- I used to have many of the same sentiments you have about McCain. I did some research though and found that although he is famous for his Scotts temper, he has mellowed some with age, and is also famous for admitting when he is wrong and apologizing when it is appropriate.

    Also -- were you aware that Mrs. McCain on a visit to India decided to adopt one of the orphan girls at one of Mother Theresea's Orphanges? McCain's don't atlk about this much or about their son who is a rifleman in a Marine Corps Infantry unit in Iraq right now.

    Did you see the Saddleback forum the other week?
    If yes, what did you think of it? Most people, including jaded pundits were very complimentary on the format. One hour with Obama answering questions followed by one hour of McCain answering the exact same questions. No bickering back and forth -- no debate -- just indepth uninterrupted Q&A.

  3. #3
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    Re: Convince an Independent

    McCain may not be the ideal candidate for President, but he is far better overall than Obama. He is a straight-talker with experience to back it up. He will do well on foreign policy and national security. Iraq and the economy are issues that no President will be able to directly fix overnight. Those two issues will take some time and have many factors involved. Obama is just that, a good talker. He can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. He is a socialist in disguise that stands to increase our government and government control. He is weak on foreign policy and national security. I think Obama would be a mistake. We are better off with McCain.
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by Scotty
    My current position. So now it's either McCain or Obama. Some attributes, some negatives...

    McCain - attributes
    - Works well under stress
    - Clear and concise when speaking on the issues (actually takes a position clearly, and doesn't say "um" a thousand times when trying to complete a thought.
    - Experience (both political and executive; military command)
    - Foreign political knowledge

    McCain- negatives
    - OLD (I've met him in person, early in the morning and without makeup etc...he is freaking old) All of the young attire and baseball caps can't make him look and be perceived otherwise.
    - Combative (has an "us vs. them" mentality) world view
    - pandering (to the extreme right and Christian orgs.)

    Obama - attributes
    - respect (for other cultures and ideas)
    - eloquent (finally a president who can speak properly)
    - seeks to change the tempo in Washington (hopefully he would follow up on this)
    - extremely competent wife v. McCains (everyone knows the key to a good pres. is having this support and says a lot about the person in general)
    - can overcome obstacles well

    Obama - negatives
    - prone to scandal/questionable associations
    - inexperience
    - cocky personae
    - although he sounds good, does he really ever say much of substance?
    Curious whether the selection of Biden as running mate has affected your concerns in bold.

    Also, before I try to persuade you to vote Dem, it would be helpful to know what the issues are that matter most to you?
    It is less important what you believe, than why you believe it.

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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Constitutionally, the president has total control of the US military and little else -- but that job is huge. The president is also the leader of US foreign policy.

    That is what the job is Constitutionally, and Clinton learned the hard way that the job is almost completely about the military and foreign policy. Very rarely can a president affect domestic policy except for sheer force of persuasion.

    Perhaps the greatest impact of domestic issues is the power of the president to appoint Supreme Court Justices. Where do you stand on that? DO you think the Constitution should be interpreted strictly, or do you think judges should legislate from the bench?
    I think you've left out the single greatest power of a President. The VETO.

  6. #6
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    In order for you to decide, and for us to maybe offer some input, I think it is necessary for you to share with us how you view the job as president.
    My views are not important here. What is important is your endorsement of whatever candidate you support, and why you endorse that particular candidate. Your goal is to persuade us undecided voters, not just me. I provided my own perceptions so that you might understand where many independent undecided voters might be in their decision process.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Constitutionally, the president has total control of the US military and little else -- but that job is huge. The president is also the leader of US foreign policy.
    The president is a major foreign policy leader, can veto, can send the military abroad for a set amount of time without congress, etc. The president is also the symbol of our country both here and abroad. Whoever is elected, this person will represent us internationally and be intimately involved with domestic issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    That is what the job is Constitutionally, and Clinton learned the hard way that the job is almost completely about the military and foreign policy. Very rarely can a president affect domestic policy except for sheer force of persuasion.

    Perhaps the greatest impact of domestic issues is the power of the president to appoint Supreme Court Justices. Where do you stand on that? DO you think the Constitution should be interpreted strictly, or do you think judges should legislate from the bench?
    I understand why you want my opinion, or at least context, to better judge what to say. My opinion doesn't matter so much as your argument for why we should elect McCain.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    Also -- I used to have many of the same sentiments you have about McCain. I did some research though and found that although he is famous for his Scotts temper, he has mellowed some with age, and is also famous for admitting when he is wrong and apologizing when it is appropriate.
    Also -- were you aware that Mrs. McCain on a visit to India decided to adopt one of the orphan girls at one of Mother Theresea's Orphanges? McCain's don't atlk about this much or about their son who is a rifleman in a Marine Corps Infantry unit in Iraq right now.
    ...
    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post

    Did you see the Saddleback forum the other week?
    If yes, what did you think of it? Most people, including jaded pundits were very complimentary on the format. One hour with Obama answering questions followed by one hour of McCain answering the exact same questions. No bickering back and forth -- no debate -- just indepth uninterrupted Q&A.
    I did see the forum. McCain seemed to do very well, while Obama struggled to speak. Why should I vote for one or the other though?

    Quote Originally Posted by onalandline
    McCain may not be the ideal candidate for President, but he is far better overall than Obama. He is a straight-talker with experience to back it up. He will do well on foreign policy and national security. Iraq and the economy are issues that no President will be able to directly fix overnight. Those two issues will take some time and have many factors involved.
    This is what I'm looking for...why I (or any undecided) should vote for the candidate you want. Why specifically would McCain be better at foreign policy and national security? Is it because of his experience or is his worldview more appropriate for our current situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zorak
    Curious whether the selection of Biden as running mate has affected your concerns in bold.

    Also, before I try to persuade you to vote Dem, it would be helpful to know what the issues are that matter most to you?
    Let us consider that running mates are a part of the decision making process. You are not trying to get me to vote dem specifically, rather trying to persuade any undecided voters to vote dem. What is it about Obama that convinced you, and why should we accept him as our president?

  7. #7
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by scottyT View Post
    My views are not important here. ... and why should we accept him as our president?
    Probably the single most important attribute one seeks in a president (other than integrity) is the demonstrated ability to make good judgements -- especially about people.


    For Obama we have William Ayres -- an admitted murderous terrorist whose organization bombed the capital and the Pentagon; Obama's preachjer of 20 years -- the Rev. Wright; and most recently his selection of Joseph Biden as his running mate -- the politician that website Famouse Plagiarists.com rates as the most famous political plagiarist of our time.

    Compare that to McCain who supported Gen. David Patreus and his military doctirne in Iraq which every reasonable observer now credits with causing peace to break out all other that country. McCain supported Patreus and his plan when almost everyone else was ready to quit. McCain wagered his political career on his support for Patreus's plan. Also -- Consider the unreserved support McCain receives from senior Democrat Senator Joe Lieberman. It speaks volumes on McCains' character that he has a leading democrat out campaigning for him. Finally -- I would submit for consideration McCain's relationship with his captors and torturers in Viet Nam. Interviews have shown the North Viet Namese would like to see him win. Meditate on that-- his former enemies have the utmost respect for him and McCain has been a leader in normalizing relations with that former enemy -- despite suffering horribly at their hands. To command the respect of one's enemies while at the same time demonstrating an enormous capacity to forgive -- well one could not invent a better mark of character than these traits.

    It might be true that many non-Americans -- including especially the people in Hamas, Al Quaeda and other groups who wish us harm -- want to see Obama as our president. It is though I think more important that the world respect the United States and have no doubts about our resolve to confront our enemies. McCain's experience demonstrates quite well that off all the leaders in America, he is the one who has demonstrated an ability to earn respect, and win victory honorably.

  8. #8
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Government Fiscal Responsibility

    McCain:
    • Supports a Balanced Budget Amendment
    • Never voted in favor of a single pork-barrel project


    Obama:
    • Does not support a Balanced Budget Amendment
    • Voted in favor of a many pork-barrel projects. One reported gave 9 million dollars to the hospital that employed Obama's wife, just one year after her salary was increased 260%


    Economic Policy and Taxes

    McCain:
    • Would maintain the current capital gains rate.
    • Would reduce the corporate tax rates from 35% to 25%. Understands that in Corporations really don't pay taxes anyway, they pass on the costs of corporate taxes to stockholders, employees, and consumers.
    • Against tax increases across the board. Understands that in modern history, tax hikes have resulted in a decrease in revenue virtually every single time.


    Obama:
    • Would increase the capital gains rate. When confronted with the fact that almost all economists admit that an increase in capital gains taxes would result in a reduction in tax revenue, he stated it should still be increased in the name of "fairness".
    • Would leave the corporate tax rate at 35%.
    • Has attempted to justify raising taxes in many areas. Usually employees the tactic of class warfare by talking about how Bush's tax cuts "favor" the rich. Never mentions that at our current rates, the top 10% pay almost 70% of the tax burden and that the bottom 50% pay only 3% of the tax burden.


    Energy

    McCain:
    Energy policy could be referred to as an "all of the above" plan. His plan includes:
    • Offshore drilling - increasing domestic supply.
    • Wind/Solar
    • Greening/Conservation
    • Nuclear
    • Efficiency


    Obama:
    Obama's energy plan includes:
    • NO offshore drilling
    • Wind Solar
    • Greening/Conservation
    • NO Nuclear
    • Efficiency
    • "Windfall Profits Tax" - Again, he seems to fail to understand what this would result in. As mentioned earlier, Corporations pass on tax costs to shareholders, employees, and customers. At a time when everyone agrees that we should decrease our dependence on foreign oil, this would put foreign oil at an advantage over US oil companies, would reduce stock value for the millions of Americans that invest in these companies, would result in job losses, and would raise prices at the pump.


    Abortion:

    McCain: Pro-Life. Life begins at conception.

    Obama: Pro-Choice. Life begins at birth.

    I'll continue this later...

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    Re: Convince an Independent

    Quote Originally Posted by scottyT View Post
    This is what I'm looking for...why I (or any undecided) should vote for the candidate you want. Why specifically would McCain be better at foreign policy and national security? Is it because of his experience or is his worldview more appropriate for our current situation?
    McCain has more experience overall with worldly affairs. Yes, his military experience counts toward that, but more importantly his experience in the Senate. He realizes that the end goal with Iraq is the same as everyone else - to bring our troops home, but he realizes that it is easier said than done and will not happen on a fixed and rigid timeline. There are too many variables that will affect the outcome in Iraq. Obama likes to paint a perfect picture for his followers, but has little to back up his claims. He has no solid prior experience for folks to build on. His "change" he talks about is something that many of his supporters just look at as a good thing, but what kind of change is this socialist democrat really talking about? Neither candidate is perfect, but I would trust McCain at the helm, not Obama.
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    LiberalTruth disagrees: A sad attempt at providing real facts about their policies. Horribly biased towards McCain and you seem to have contorted Obama's agenda to fit the 'corrupt, inexperienced, liberal, elitist' label that he's been tagged with.
    LiberalTruth: First of all, I challenge you to disprove anything I've said about Obama in terms of what he's for or against. I offered hard facts about where he stands on issues. Then I gave my opinion about the motivations behind his stance on those issues.

    I didn't mention or even infer anything regarding lack of experience.

    As far as painting him as corrupt, his own actions did that. Assuming he's innocent of any quid-pro-quo action with his wife's employer, he's still guilty of using bad forethough and judgement in the situation, knowing damned good and well it would at the very least result in the appearance of impropriety.

  11. #11
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    If ever there was a year that the dem's could win my vote. This is the year. Because I see McCain as a Dem, not a republican. I think your overall impression has been the same as mine. This is the one that seriously concerns me the most.
    *on obama*
    Quote Originally Posted by ScottyT
    - although he sounds good, does he really ever say much of substance?
    In the end, I know where McCain stands, and because of his history, I can pretty much guess at what he is changing just to get elected. However Obama, is like a clean slate. One which we are to use our imagination to fill. When I hear him speak, I hear uncertainty. When that uncertainty fallows questions which should demonstrate core beliefs, I become disturbed.

    I ask, how can you support someone who doesn't really say anything when he talks?
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  12. #12
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    John McCain has served this country, and he has served honorably, both militarily and politically. Over his 26 year tenure in the Senate, he has brought about a lot of change and worked tirelessly for the rights of veterans, workers and minorities. I will not attempt to discredit his record of service like others seem to be doing to Obama. Feeding undecided independent voters garbage about the other candidate isn't helping them at all, only giving them excuses to make bad choices. That is, after all, how we have that failure at life in the White House. This shouldn't be about dragging up old scandals, mudslinging and throwing kitchen sinks. Dirty politics only drags this country backward and I would like to think that such nonsense doesn't appeal to American public anymore. But evidently, idiocy is still a widespread phenomenon.

    It's late, I'll tell you why to vote for Obama in a little while.

    Spart - Saddleback Forum was a joke. McCain was fed the questions, his answers were BSed, he was mostly pandering, but because he said he'd he follow Bin Laden to the gates of hell of his combating evil plan, he was declared winner. God, you people buy into such cheap rhetoric, it's almost embarassing.
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Well if this board is an indication, you should vote based on the following logical conclusions.

    1. Are you a conservative evangelical Christian?
    If yes, then you are required by Jesus to vote Republican. This is because Jesus preached low taxes for the rich, more corporate power over all aspects of domestic life, and spending billions and billions of your middle class tax dollars to blowing the tar out of any particular third world nation you happen to dislike.

    2. Not an evangelical Christian?
    Do you like guns? Yeah guns=freedom=VOTE REPUBLICAN!!

    3. Are you afraid of the dark?
    If youíre afraid, then you want someone in office that isn't afraid to blow the tar out of someone your afraid of. Republicans have been known to do that. Go with what works, with what you know. Vote Republican!

    4. Are you afraid of taxes?
    Everybody knows that taxes are for communist states. Only the poor should pay taxes, rich people make more money than you do so they don't deserve more taxes. Seems perfectly logical to me! This means vote Republican!

    I jest, but if you really think about it, this isnít that far from the substance of the arguments being used.

    You don't actually believe that massive mega multi-national corporations that have more GDP that entire countries will let anyone get in other than who they want in power do you? They control the media, and they will use it to orchestra what looks like a fair election, but it could not be farther from fair. It is all spin. But donít believe me, nobody listens to me...

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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus
    Probably the single most important attribute one seeks in a president (other than integrity) is the demonstrated ability to make good judgements -- especially about people.
    And I guess McCain's associations with Pastor Hagee, Richard Quinn, George Wallace Jr, La Raza, and a plethora of lobbyists should be left out when determining his ability to judge people?
    Last edited by gobraves; August 24th, 2008 at 07:29 AM.
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalTruth View Post
    God, you people buy into such cheap rhetoric, it's almost embarassing.

    I think you are projecting this sentiment of yourself onto others here.

    Obama got "pwned" (is that the word?) at Saddleback, because he is espousing to hold views which he in fact does not personally hold. Obama is not being totally and forthcoming -- so he has to think about what he is going to say. Not just how he is going to express an idea but he has to mentally run down his checklist and remember what his various positions are supposed top be. His "slightly left of center" position who portrays now is nothing like his radical Socialist Liberal self -- as evidenced by his voting record. Obama is after all the most Left Wing member of the Senate based on his voting record there.

    Saddleback is what happens when he does not have a script (or the Letterman Obama 'uh" count), and that is why his handlers keep him away from situations where he does not have a script and teleprompter.

    McCain on the other hand is open and honest. He does not hold back regardless of the political consequences. Good God McCain spoke out against government farm subsidies in Iowa! Obama just panders and would never be so blunt and bold.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by gobraves View Post
    And I guess McCain's associations with Pastor Hagee, Richard Quinn, George Wallace Jr, La Raza, and a plethora of lobbyists should be left out when determining his ability to judge people?
    It is one thing to "work" with people. It is another to make a conscious decision to associate closely with people -- to have them as guests in your home multiple times; to quote them in books; or choose to serve on the same board of a small foundation at one their invitation. I know you want to make these relationships of McCain equate to Wright, Rezko and Ayres, etc. -- but it just does not wash.

    Give it another try...


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Why not check out what has been reported on Obama -- before all the international media love fest pieces began?


    Here is part of an AP story from Jan., 2007

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2369157.shtml


    "(AP) Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama may have a lot of explaining to do.

    He voted against requiring medical care for aborted fetuses who survive. He supported allowing retired police officers to carry concealed weapons, but opposed allowing people to use banned handguns to defend against intruders in their homes. And the list of sensitive topics goes on.

    With only a slim, two-year record in the U.S. Senate, Obama doesn't have many controversial congressional votes which political opponents can frame into attack ads. But his eight years as an Illinois state senator are sprinkled with potentially explosive land mines, such as his abortion and gun control votes.

    Obama — who filed papers this week creating an exploratory committee to seek the 2008 Democratic nomination — may also find himself fielding questions about his actions outside public office, from his acknowledgment of cocaine use in his youth to a more recent land purchase from a political supporter who is facing charges in an unrelated kickback scheme involving investment firms seeking state business.

    Obama was known in the Illinois Capitol as a consistently liberal senator who reflected the views of voters in his Chicago district. He helped reform the state death penalty system and create tax breaks for the poor while developing a reputation as someone who would work with critics to build consensus.

    He had a 100 percent rating from the Illinois Planned Parenthood Council for his support of abortion rights, family planning services and health insurance coverage for female contraceptives.

    One vote that especially riled abortion opponents involved restrictions on a type of abortion where the fetus sometimes survives, occasionally for hours. The restrictions, which never became law, included requiring the presence of a second doctor to care for the fetus."

    Scotty -- this entire thread was merely responses to Obamaniacs false claims. That and an AP article from 2007. For that you neg rep me? Not cool man. Not cool.
    Last edited by Spartacus; August 24th, 2008 at 06:52 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: Convince an Independant

    When you speak of what the president does I think of what either will do for the country. The one that does the most will be the best candidate, so does experience matter that much? If you are surrounded by a bunch of 'certified bookworms' on issues they will inform you of what is going on and which is the most important to deal with by way of identifying the issues that affect the most people at the time. Once these things have been identified it takes a sound mind to judge what the course of action is, but as was said, it is mainly military, foreign policies appointment of supreme court justices that take the job. Now if hings need fixing - and I am sure you will agree that they do - then what will fix them? Experience counts for habit forming, and as we have seen there are a lot of things going on that nobody knows how to deal with up until now, so what is left but to try something new? I think Obama will indeed try new things but they could go wrong, as a younger man he is more prone to excitement than the older man, but excitement keeps the house buzzing and encourages people to put forward new ideas, ideas that will hopefully rectify the situations that have occurred, so, does a older person subject to habits that has been on the field for longer know how to fix the problems? I really don't think so, so it must be the younger man that can sell ideas to people so well that should get the vote for accepting new ideas to fix the problems. An experienced president may go for damage limitation, which is good, but going for the 'kill' is better I think you will agree. So does the newer mind have the stomach to try and fix the problems? He has said he wants to make things better, and that is exactly what is expected of him.

    But will Obama act on what he has said he will do? When somebody tries to win the votes, and they see people believing in them, then they would be satisfied if they acted upon what they had said, and would be biased to act upon what they said they would do wouldn't they? To keep support for the next elections is what is in mind, as the job is the most sought after in the world, so doing what you said you would do goes well in making for another presidency for oneself. If McCain had such a radical approach maybe I would believe in him, but as a habit influenced person, he wouldn't take chances and would rely rather on what has worked before.

    The people they know who will be in line influencing them, McCain has been able to see the field and make connections therein for longer, so his staff will be the best of the bunch that he has. Obama has been in the game for a shorter time and will not have as many connections available to him that he knows about, but that would go along with the theme of change as he recruits people that have a high rating rather than people he knows from whenever past.

    When it comes to foreign policy who will get along better with the other presidents? Someone that has knowledge that will be encouraging to other presidnets, or someone that can 'flirt' with them? I mean Obama will have a capable arsenal of knowledge that is relevant to the issues, and will be able to maybe sell his ideas to them with some pazaz, or whatever.

    I support Obama because I believe in his change theme, which I think is needed.
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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by LiberalTruth View Post
    John McCain has served this country, and he has served honorably, both militarily and politically. Over his 26 year tenure in the Senate, he has brought about a lot of change and worked tirelessly for the rights of veterans, workers and minorities. I will not attempt to discredit his record of service like others seem to be doing to Obama. Feeding undecided independent voters garbage about the other candidate isn't helping them at all, only giving them excuses to make bad choices. That is, after all, how we have that failure at life in the White House. This shouldn't be about dragging up old scandals, mudslinging and throwing kitchen sinks. Dirty politics only drags this country backward and I would like to think that such nonsense doesn't appeal to American public anymore. But evidently, idiocy is still a widespread phenomenon.

    It's late, I'll tell you why to vote for Obama in a little while.

    Spart - Saddleback Forum was a joke. McCain was fed the questions, his answers were BSed, he was mostly pandering, but because he said he'd he follow Bin Laden to the gates of hell of his combating evil plan, he was declared winner. God, you people buy into such cheap rhetoric, it's almost embarassing.
    Ha Ha.

    Dirty politics are bad. Mudslinging is bad... oh, by the way, McCain was fed the Saddleback questions.

    Hypocrisy. Total Hypocrisy.

    I say BS, bring up all the old scandals, all the appearances of impropriety. Bring up Rev. Wright, bring up Keating Five. Bring all the skeletons out of the closet. McCain and Obama both should feel obligated to explain any political or public action they've taken in their life.

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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post

    It is one thing to "work" with people. It is another to make a conscious decision to associate closely with people -- to have them as guests in your home multiple times; to quote them in books; or choose to serve on the same board of a small foundation at one their invitation. I know you want to make these relationships of McCain equate to Wright, Rezko and Ayres, etc. -- but it just does not wash.

    Give it another try...
    Tell me something, what is the difference between "working" with people and associating with them? Is endorsing a white supremacist considered "working" with them? You're original point was- Obama has bad judgement because of the people he associates with. Now lets look at a few of the people McCain likes to "work" with from time to time:

    Pastor Hagee:
    -On Katrina: " I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they were recipients of the judgment of God for that. "
    -On Islam: "Those who live by the Koran have a scriptural mandate to kill Christians and Jews."
    -On Catholicism: "A Godless theology of hate that no one dared try to stop for a thousand years produced a harvest of hate."
    -On the Holocaust: "No one could see the horror of the Holocaust coming, but the force and fear of Hitler's Nazis drove the Jewish people back to the only home that God ever intended for the Jews to have—Israel."
    -What does John McCain think about Pastor Hagee?
    "I am very honored by Pastor John Hagee's endorsement..."
    "I was pleased to have the endorsement of Pastor John Hagee..."

    Here is a quick overview Hagee:


    Tell me, if John McCain is so good at judging people, why didn't he see through Hagee?


    Lets look at George Wallace Jr.:

    According to Wikipedia: "In June 2005 he opened up the first day of the annual national convention of the Council of Conservative Citizens". I have read before that Wallace has been to many CCC meetings in the past.

    The CCC has described blacks as "a retrograde species of humanity", and Supreme Court Justice Thurgood Marshall once referred to the CCC as the "uptown Klan." According to its website, the CCC's mission is to "oppose all efforts to mix the races."

    So you would think that John McCain, who according to you has a supreme ability to judge people, would try to stay away from people like Wallace Jr. But no, in 2005, he endorses Wallace Jr for Lt. Governor of Alabama. He called him a "Committed Conservative Reformer".

    Read more here: http://www.democrats.org/a/2005/11/mccains_bob_jon.php


    Now..Richard Quinn:

    Quinn's description of MLK's work "...lead his people into a perpetual dependence on the welfare state, a terrible bondage of body and soul."

    He described the MLK holiday as "Vitriolic and Profane", yet praised KKK member David Duke by saying, what better way to reject politics-as-usual than to elect a maverick like David Duke?"

    Who is Richard Quinn? He is McCains advisor. McCain has refused to fire him.

    Tell me if you want to hear more.


    The purpose of my post is not only to "make these relationships of McCain equate to Wright, Rezko and Ayres, etc.", but also to show that McCains abilities to judge people are not as strong as you think.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    scottyT disagrees: Again, why should I vote for your candidate, not why I shouldn't vote for the other....let's stay on topic here
    I don't like either candidate. My intention was not to say "don't vote for McCain", that is what you sadly assumed. My intention was to attack the clear bias in a few of the other posts.
    Last edited by gobraves; August 24th, 2008 at 10:08 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
    "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. "
    -Gandhi

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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Reminder: This is what the OP stated...

    "Now, on behalf of independents and those who haven't decided yet, can you present arguments for why we should vote for your candidate without basing arguments mostly on why not to vote for the other? This is your forum to convince us undecided voters..."


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Undecided voters are generally knowledgeable of all the scandals, mis-speaks, and bad associations. That is why I wanted to start this thread; so I could hear positive arguments for why I and other undecided voters should vote for the candidate you support without vomiting up all of the bad aspects of the other candidate.
    Last edited by scottyT; August 24th, 2008 at 10:23 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: Convince an Independant

    Quote Originally Posted by scottyT View Post
    Reminder: This is what the OP stated...

    "Now, on behalf of independents and those who haven't decided yet, can you present arguments for why we should vote for your candidate without basing arguments mostly on why not to vote for the other? This is your forum to convince us undecided voters..."
    I agree with that, but I don't see how attacking false claims made in other posts doesn't fit the OP. This is, after all, a debate forum. For example, if someone claims you should vote for Obama because he is God, I think it's appropriate for people to disagree and debate over that claim. They aren't exactly saying "vote for McCain because I just proved Obama is not God", they are simply saying "The other person is wrong, Obama is not God".
    "Strength does not come from physical capacity. It comes from an indomitable will. "
    -Gandhi

 

 
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