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  1. #81
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    I don't think a case could be made that shows Obama is not a Christian. I think a case could be made however, that shows perhaps some discrepancies in views* that are contrary with Christianity (in some cases, VERY much so) as well as some actions and history by Obama, that shows how it was politically expedient to be aligned with and a part of certain churches...and that is about as far as it could possibly go IMO.

    To be clear: I think it is a legit issue to throw up some "red flags" on the issue, but that is best case scenario, it could never prove that he wasn't a Christian. And because of that, it isn't an argument that would have much weight politically, therefore, you'll never see it made by any serious activist or analyst. It's more of a "fun" argument IMO that would only make its rounds in communities similar to this one.



    * Examples from Joseph Farah of WND (see below for more source and explanation):

    1) He has no idea what happens when we die. Christians have a very firm position on this. Obama just doesn't know. Obviously, either he's never read the Bible, or doesn't believe what the Bible says. RED FLAG.

    2) He suggests his eternal destination has something to do with being a "good father" to his children and transferring values he got from his atheist mother. The Bible teaches the opposite. The way to salvation isn't through human moral standards, nor from family values, nor from good deeds, but from Christ. It's quite clear. RED FLAG.

    3) He says there are several paths to Heaven. Christianity teaches that there is 1 and only 1. RED FLAG.

    One cannot deny central tenets of the Christian faith, including the deity and uniqueness of Christ as the sole mediator between God and Man and be a Christian. Such people do have a label applied to them in Scripture. They are called a “false prophet.”
    Jesus also said that these sorts will come to him, calling his name, but he will say back to them that He, never knew them.

    IMO, and I have nothing to back this up, it's just what I think from what I know about Obama....I think he's an atheist. But he knows that an atheist is unelectable. He also needed the church community in South Chicago to help him get noticed and move up the political food chain. He's Christian only by political convenience. Again, this is only an opinion, I have no solid evidence...I merely have Obama's statements, history and ignorance about Christianity.

    The points above were stated by Obama in a 2004 interview with Chicago Sun-Times columnist Cathleen Falsani.
    http://foxforum.blogs.foxnews.com/20...t-a-christian/



    *edit*

    The more I think about it, perhaps indeed, a stronger argument than expected could be made against Obama claiming to be a Christian. If Obama doesn't know Christ or believe in Christ...which seems to be the case through his statements and positions...then how could he be a Christian?
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  3. #82
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    3) He says there are several paths to Heaven. Christianity teaches that there is 1 and only 1. RED FLAG.
    Most certainly there is only one path to Heaven. However, yours is only an interpretation of his response. First the site you referenced doesn't have the question, so we don't know the context of his answer. But here is his answer:

    Quote Originally Posted by Obama
    “I believe there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.”
    Now, if the question is What is the path to Heaven then I will gladly concede the point and the thread. However, the way I read this is "same place" means "a belief in a higher power", not Heaven. Place, in this instance is not a location, but a state of mind or understanding.
    Only what can happen does happen. ~Watchmen
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  4. #83
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    ....there are many paths to believing in God? What sense does that make snack?

    Regardless, that isn't what Obama was saying. Here's the text of the article:
    "So, I have a deep faith," Obama continues. "I'm rooted in the Christian tradition. I believe that there are many paths to the same place, and that is a belief that there is a higher power, a belief that we are connected as a people.

    "That there are values that transcend race or culture, that move us forward, and there's an obligation for all of us individually as well as collectively to take responsibility to make those values lived."

    It's perhaps an unlikely theological position for someone who places his faith squarely at the feet of Jesus to take, saying essentially that all people of faith -- Christians, Jews, Muslims, animists, everyone -- know the same God.

    That depends, Obama says, on how a particular verse from the Gospel of John, where Jesus says, "I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me," is heard.

    Obama's theological point of view was shaped by his uniquely multicultural upbringing. He was born in 1961 in Hawaii to a white mother who came from Protestant Midwestern stock and a black African father who hailed from the Luo tribe of Kenya.

    Obama describes his father, after whom he is named, as "agnostic." His paternal grandfather was a Muslim. His mother, he says, was a Christian.

    "My mother was a deeply spiritual person and would spend a lot of time talking about values and give me books about the world's religions and talk to me about them.

    "Her view always was that underlying these religions was a common set of beliefs about how you treat other people and how you aspire to act, not just for yourself, but also for the greater good."

    Obama doesn't believe he, or anyone else, will go to hell.

    But he's not sure if he'll be going to heaven, either.

    "I don't presume to have knowledge of what happens after I die," he says. "When I tuck in my daughters at night, and I feel like I've been a good father to them, and I see in them that I am transferring values that I got from my mother and that they're kind people and that they're honest people, and they're curious people, that's a little piece of heaven."
    http://www.suntimes.com/news/falsani...040504.article

    Obama...does not "know" Christ, and flat out disagrees with the Bible, Jesus, and therefore, Christianity. He appears to be then, Christian in label and convenience...only.
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  6. #84
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Obama...does not "know" Christ, and flat out disagrees with the Bible, Jesus, and therefore, Christianity. He appears to be then, Christian in label and convenience...only.
    To me it sounds like you are saying if a man doesn't have blind dogmatic faith without any questioning or doubt then he isn't christian. In my expereince it is the christians who are most certain they know the truth that are most often proven to be wrong.

  7. #85
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    To me it sounds like you are saying if a man doesn't have blind dogmatic faith without any questioning or doubt then he isn't christian. In my expereince it is the christians who are most certain they know the truth that are most often proven to be wrong.
    Very problematic argument....

    1) Nowhere did I claim being unsure of something Christian = non-Christian. The Bible says the opposite, it tells us to question all things, so that we can verify that they are "good". We are to use our minds.

    There are some things according to scripture, we can be sure of. There are others, that may be rather vague or uncertain. What happens when we die...is not one of the latter. The Bible speaks a great deal of the afterlife, what it means to be saved and damned, how both happen, etc... Those who say they don't know what Christianity says about it, have never studied the most elementary principles of it. And those who say that what Christianity teaches about the afterlife is untrue, obviously disagree with Christ, as well as Christianity. If you do not agree with Christ, you do not follow Christ. If you do not follow Christ, his example and his teachings...obviously, you cannot be a Christian.

    2) You have made quite a claim there (about being proven wrong), but like most, you are unable to support the claim...so it is dismissed as nothing more than an attemptive jab that fails to land any blow.

    However, it is still a fallacious retort. Let's say that Christianity is 100% wrong. That doesn't absolve Obama in any way, shape or form. There are certain fundamental doctrines that will make up a particular belief system (regardless of them being actually true or not). It is what defines that belief system. If you disregard or disagree with these elementary principles or fundamental doctrines, you are not an adherent of the belief system, regardless if the doctrines are true or not.

    You'll have to do a lot better than that Sig.

    To Snack, Sig and any other who are willing to take Obama at is word on whether or not he is a Christian...

    Christ, upon whom Christianity is built, tells us what happens when we die, tells us that He is the only way, and his disciples taught the same thing...Obama disagrees with Christ. So how can one be a follower of Christ, submit to His teachings and example while at the same time disagreeing with Him?

    Or are you saying that perhaps Obama is the one and only true Christian...and the millions of others before and after Obama...aren't?


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    If he is pro-choice that does not mean he himself would recommend someone to have an abortion. That just means that he would leave it up to that woman/couple to make the decision...
    So it does not become problematic to support that which is morally contrary to your belief system? For example...one could still be a Christian, while at the same time be pro-murder, pro-child molestation, pro-rape, pro-torture, pro-lying, pro-adulterer, etc...? You know...all the things that the Bible condemns? If one holds such positions, isn't one in direct contradiction to the belief system? If not...please explain. If so, then they are openly denouncing said belief system. If you denounce a belief system...how is it possible to be a follower of said belief system?
    Last edited by Apokalupsis; September 5th, 2008 at 02:40 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  8. #86
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Apok:
    So it does not become problematic to support that which is morally contrary to your belief system? For example...one could still be a Christian, while at the same time be pro-murder, pro-child molestation, pro-rape, pro-torture, pro-lying, pro-adulterer, etc...? You know...all the things that the Bible condemns? If one holds such positions, isn't one in direct contradiction to the belief system? If not...please explain. If so, then they are openly denouncing said belief system. If you denounce a belief system...how is it possible to be a follower of said belief system?
    Could you please give some example of something that would NOT be illegal? There is a difference between the examples you listed and being pro-choice. Abortion is not illegal. Therefor a Christian is not allowing someone to make their own choices on something that is illegal...

    pro-murder- people kill everyday in some way or another...If you scratch your arm you are killing cells, so you are a murderer...

    So you are going to have to decide if you want to go with what is considered legal or not, here...
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
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  9. #87
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    Could you please give some example of something that would NOT be illegal? There is a difference between the examples you listed and being pro-choice. Abortion is not illegal. Therefor a Christian is not allowing someone to make their own choices on something that is illegal...
    What is legal isn't necessarily what is moral. Legality isn't the issue, morality is.

    pro-murder- people kill everyday in some way or another...If you scratch your arm you are killing cells, so you are a murderer...
    Nope. Killing something in some manner, is not the same as murder. Murder is a very specific sort of killing. Killing inherently, isn't necessarily evil in and of itself. People kill themselves to save others, people kill others accidentally (it's tragic, but not necessarily evil intent).

    So you are going to have to decide if you want to go with what is considered legal or not, here...
    Of course not. Morality isn't defined by law, it's defined by one's belief system. People oppose laws all the time because they conflict with their moral beliefs. It's how change is made. It's due to such opposition, that slavery is outlawed, that minorities have rights, that women can vote, etc... Such acts were deemed immoral by moral reformers, so they sought legal action to protect such morals.

    That's the reason now that people oppose abortion laws...that's the reason why people oppose the war (they do so from moral positions, not legal ones). Both are legal, both are not necessarily moral (due to a particular legal status).
    -=]Apokalupsis[=-
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  10. #88
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    The Bible says the opposite, it tells us to question all things, so that we can verify that they are "good". We are to use our minds.

    There are some things according to scripture, we can be sure of.
    And thus have contradicted yourself already. Question all things, except some things. How do you deterimine exactly which things can be questioned legitimately and which can not? On what authority is that determination made?

    Soes the bible have a section marked "and this stuff were not to sure about but we think it might be true?" Are there sections you can difinitively prove have never been created by a human being acting under their own volition? (aka that they are the unaltered word of god himself)

    There is a great deal of sholarly disagreement between theologeons on what qualifies you for heaven, what it is like when you get there, if there is a hell or pergatory, what that is like and so on. Its quite open for debate and has been debated as long as christianity has been around (not to mention before it was invented)

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Those who say they don't know what Christianity says about it, have never studied the most elementary principles of it.
    He didn't say he didn't know what the bible says about the afterlife, he merely expressed doubt and uncertainty about what it means or how much of it he beleives in. Considering that Christ didn't actualy write the bible it is at best a second hand accounting of what he said, and an extreemly abridged one at that. I find plenty of room for someone who beleives in christ as the son of god to have questions or doubt about the contents of the bible and how it has been interpreted over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    If you do not agree with Christ, you do not follow Christ. If you do not follow Christ, his example and his teachings...obviously, you cannot be a Christian.
    I find that amusing. Chirst himself demanded no such requirements of his followers, and if only those that did exactly as chirst would were christians, there pretty much woudn't be any christians. Recognition of imperfection is pretty essential to christian faith in my opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    2) You have made quite a claim there (about being proven wrong), but like most, you are unable to support the claim...so it is dismissed as nothing more than an attemptive jab that fails to land any blow.
    A number christians proclaimed they were certain the world would end in the year 2000. They were wrong. Many beleive their prayers will be answered if they are faithfull. They are often wrong. are you telling me that no christian has ever been wrong about a question of theology? The mere fact that there are so man sects and groups of christians promoting differing beliefs clearly shows that a good number of them must be wrong about something. Logicaly they can't all be right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    However, it is still a fallacious retort. Let's say that Christianity is 100% wrong. That doesn't absolve Obama in any way, shape or form. There are certain fundamental doctrines that will make up a particular belief system (regardless of them being actually true or not). It is what defines that belief system. If you disregard or disagree with these elementary principles or fundamental doctrines, you are not an adherent of the belief system, regardless if the doctrines are true or not.?
    But who gets to define what the belief system is or which parts of it can or can not be questioned? In the case of christianity that authority should be God and his son Jesus. But you can't actualy appeal to them directly and thus you have no real basis for making the judgement. You can say who is a member of your particular church, but not who is a christian. Is it not claimed that Jesus said "Judge not?" And was that not directly an admonition to those who claimed to know who was in gods favor and who was not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    You'll have to do a lot better than that Sig.?
    I disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Christ, upon whom Christianity is built, tells us what happens when we die, tells us that He is the only way, and his disciples taught the same thing...Obama disagrees with Christ. So how can one be a follower of Christ, submit to His teachings and example while at the same time disagreeing with Him?
    Actualy he says very little about what happens when you die other than if you ask for gods forgiveness you will sit at gods side in his glory for all eternity etc... Which means what exactly? He didn't say anything about following his teachings and examples qualifying you for heaven. Nor did he say you had to believe every word he says in order to go to heaven. Many fundamentalists are quite adamant that all you need to do is accept Jesus as your savior to go to heaven. Exactly how you do that is not specified.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    So it does not become problematic to support that which is morally contrary to your belief system? For example...one could still be a Christian, while at the same time be pro-murder, pro-child molestation, pro-rape, pro-torture, pro-lying, pro-adulterer, etc...? ?
    They can certainly claim to be one, and in fact they may for all legal purposes be one. Lots of murderers claim to be christians. Christ forgave all maner of people. He was quite adamant that the old way of saying only certian people can come to god was incorrect. He forgave the outcasts, the prostitutes and more. Many christians through history have murdered people, cheated on their wives, etc... You seem to have christians confused with saints.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    You know...all the things that the Bible condemns? If one holds such positions, isn't one in direct contradiction to the belief system? If not...please explain. If so, then they are openly denouncing said belief system. If you denounce a belief system...how is it possible to be a follower of said belief system?
    The problem is that there is no god (at least not hanging aroudn and actualy doing much), and his teachings are pretty vuage in many respects. It leaves a lot to your imagination and interpretation. Two people can pray for guidance on the same question and get totaly different answers. Do you think its ok to own slaves or put disobedient childrent to death? Is it ok to wipe out the worlds population because you find them offensive? If not you are in defiance of the bibles instructions and thus not a christian?

    The point is that there is a lot of room for discussion and debate and so long as that is there, you can't strike any absolute standard on who is christian and who isn't. What you are really saying is that Obama doesn't believe what you do, and sicne you are a christian he must not be one. But that assumes you actualy know the truth of Jesus. I tend to doubt that.

  11. #89
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Instead of every point being responded to, I'll respond to what I believe are most important. If I missed something you need responded to, let me know.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    And thus have contradicted yourself already. Question all things, except some things. How do you deterimine exactly which things can be questioned legitimately and which can not? On what authority is that determination made?
    God's. What God says to question isn't necessarily what is explained, but what isn't necessarily explained.

    For example...the context in which the statement is made, isn't such that it encourages questioning the very statement itself or even the teachings that are made very clear, but rather real applications of what is taught, as well as studies to verify the claims that are made (as much as they can be verified).

    It isn't something as silly as "We should question whether or not 2+2=4"...it is, we know it is, there is no need to doubt there is. But we can learn more about the application that mathematical theory has in our lives, as well as be encouraged to study elements of mathematics that aren't as obvious. This leads to a fuller, more accurate truth of the matter.

    There is a great deal of sholarly disagreement between theologeons on what qualifies you for heaven, what it is like when you get there, if there is a hell or pergatory, what that is like and so on. Its quite open for debate and has been debated as long as christianity has been around (not to mention before it was invented)
    He wasn't asked "What is Heaven like". He flat out said he has no idea what happens when you die. The Bible tells us. It may not give us all the details, but it doesn't need to for one, and Obama wasn't referring to details. He just has no idea what the Bible says about death, or he rejects its claims. Take your pick. Either way results in a RED FLAG.

    I find that amusing. Chirst himself demanded no such requirements of his followers, and if only those that did exactly as chirst would were christians, there pretty much woudn't be any christians. Recognition of imperfection is pretty essential to christian faith in my opinion.
    Of course he set the requirements. The requirement isn't to be perfect, nor did I say that. Which is why of course, you just committed a strawman fallacy. The requirement is that one follows Christ's path. His path is not only his example, but his teaching. Christ teaches there is 1 God and that it is through Him (Christ), one is saved. Christ speaks of damnation quite a bit. Obama outright rejects Christ's message on that one. Obama disagrees with Christ on damnation.

    A number christians proclaimed they were certain the world would end in the year 2000.
    1) Please support "a number" of. Provide evidence. Also define "number of".
    2) Then explain how a radical element constitutes the majority or speaks for all.
    3) Then explain the stretch of relevancy here.

    Feel free to skip this challenge if you see the futility and error.

    But who gets to define what the belief system is or which parts of it can or can not be questioned? In the case of christianity that authority should be God and his son Jesus. But you can't actualy appeal to them directly and thus you have no real basis for making the judgement. You can say who is a member of your particular church, but not who is a christian. Is it not claimed that Jesus said "Judge not?" And was that not directly an admonition to those who claimed to know who was in gods favor and who was not?
    You misuse/misunderstanding the teaching of "judge not" for starters. If you want me to explain I will. More importantly though, using your logic, anyone could believe anything at all about anything...and still be right.

    For example...according to what you just said...I could still be a Christian even if I worship Allah, regularly molest 5 year olds every Friday, believe I am a God myself, believe that it is moral to lie and deceive others, hold that marriage is immoral, and believe that to be saved, one must wear a purple tu-tu 5 days out of the year.

    According to you, standards don't exist. Obviously, quite problematic.

    Actualy he says very little about what happens when you die
    Actually, he says more about death than almost anything else. He speaks of what it means to be saved and damned. He speaks of Heaven and Hell. He speaks of the afterlife being a permanent state of being and this one being temporal. It doesn't seem you've opened your Bible in quite some time.

    They can certainly claim to be one, and in fact they may for all legal purposes be one. Lots of murderers claim to be christians. Christ forgave all maner of people. He was quite adamant that the old way of saying only certian people can come to god was incorrect. He forgave the outcasts, the prostitutes and more. Many christians through history have murdered people, cheated on their wives, etc... You seem to have christians confused with saints.
    Not at all. It isn't that Christians are perfect, or if someone sways, they can no longer be Christian. It is that to follow Christ, one must have it in their hearts that what they have done is wrong and they have a sincere intent of never committing that sin again. It's one thing to stay on that course with intent yet falter at times...it's another to go through the words and repeatedly violate God's commands intentionally.

    Jesus says that He does not know these people. They were never His followers...for they never really knew Him.

    The problem is that there is no god (at least not hanging aroudn and actualy doing much),
    Irrelevant to the belief system and the point itself. As I said...it could be false, but that doesn't remove the attributes or characteristics of the belief systems.

    It's like the following:

    Apok: Unicorns are magical horses with a single horn on their heads. They are traditionally white and sometimes, have wings.
    Sig: Unicorns don't exist.
    Apok: Right, they lack the real world existence. But through myth and stories, we do know that such mythical characters, are horse-like, have a single horn...thus unicorn and sometimes have magical properties.
    Sig: That can't be! Unicorns don't exist!
    Apok: But that doesn't mean that the creature we know as a unicorn through stories, doesn't have certain properties.
    Sig: It cannnot have any properties because it doesn't exist!
    Apok: Right, but only in the real world does it not exist. It does exist in stories and make-believe, so we can at least know some attributes of this make-believe creature. There are standards of attributes to this being...it's how we know it is not a dragon or a fairie. These other mythical characters have different characteristics.
    Sig: Dragons don't exist!
    You get the point. That something exists or does not, in no way takes away from the knowable attributes of the being or belief system. It may be false (belief system), but we do know for a fact, that some characteristics must be, in order for what is being described, to fit that belief system.
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  12. #90
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    What is legal isn't necessarily what is moral. Legality isn't the issue, morality is.
    But yet not ALL churches disagree with abortion..



    Nope. Killing something in some manner, is not the same as murder. Murder is a very specific sort of killing. Killing inherently, isn't necessarily evil in and of itself. People kill themselves to save others, people kill others accidentally (it's tragic, but not necessarily evil intent).
    Ok I agree



    That's the reason now that people oppose abortion laws...that's the reason why people oppose the war (they do so from moral positions, not legal ones). Both are legal, both are not necessarily moral (due to a particular legal status).
    Then why doesn't every church oppose abortion on moral grounds?
    Here is a list of churchs that oppose abortion and that does not..
    Church Doctrine
    Many churches, including United Church of Christ,18 Episcopal,19 Presbyterian (USA)20 and United Methodist, do not approve of abortion as a means of birth control. However, they support the right of a woman to obtain an abortion, if she deems that is the best choice in her circumstances, and they favor keeping abortion legal. Other churches, including Roman Catholic and Southern Baptist, oppose all abortions and favor making abortion illegal. Here is a sampling of official church positions from the three largest denominations in the U.S.:

    Roman Catholic:

    2270. Human life must be respected and protected absolutely from the moment of conception. From the first moment of his existence, a human being must be recognized as having the rights of a person - among which is the inviolable right of every innocent being to life.

    2271. Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law.
    From Catechism of the Catholic Church, (c) 1994, United States Catholic Conference, Inc., http://www.nccbuscc.org/catechism/text/index.htm

    Southern Baptist:

    Procreation is a gift from God, a precious trust reserved for marriage. At the moment of conception, a new being enters the universe, a human being, a being created in God's image. This human being deserves our protection, whatever the circumstances of conception.
    From Position Statements, Copyright (c) 1999 - 2001, Executive Committee of the Southern Baptist Convention, http://sbc.net/default.asp?url=position-statements.html


    United Methodist:

    The beginning of life and the ending of life are the God-given boundaries of human existence. While individuals have always had some degree of control over when they would die, they now have the awesome power to determine when and even whether new individuals will be born. Our belief in the sanctity of unborn human life makes us reluctant to approve abortion. But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures. We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection. We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life. We call all Christians to a searching and prayerful inquiry into the sorts of conditions that may warrant abortion. We commit our Church to continue to provide nurturing ministries to those who terminate a pregnancy, to those in the midst of a crisis pregnancy, and to those who give birth. Governmental laws and regulations do not provide all the guidance required by the informed Christian conscience. Therefore, a decision concerning abortion should be made only after thoughtful and prayerful consideration by the parties involved, with medical, pastoral, and other appropriate counsel.
    From The Book of Discipline of The United Methodist Church--2000, ¶161J. Copyright 2000 by The United Methodist Publishing House, http://www.umc.org/abouttheumc/policy/

    http://www.twopaths.com/faq_abortion.htm
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    But yet not ALL churches disagree with abortion..
    But, but all do with murder. One key issue comes down to when the being is considered human. It isn't killing that is wrong, it is murder. The being must be human. Some churches ahve different views on WHEN the being is human.

    But we are equally bound to respect the sacredness of the life and well-being of the mother, for whom devastating damage may result from an unacceptable pregnancy. In continuity with past Christian teaching, we recognize tragic conflicts of life with life that may justify abortion, and in such cases we support the legal option of abortion under proper medical procedures.
    This is fine, and is the position I hold. When it is medically necessary to protect the life of the mother, it is fine. It is saving a life. It comes down to the individual's decision as to which life to save (but often times as I understand it, the baby's survival rate due to the complication is low).

    We cannot affirm abortion as an acceptable means of birth control, and we unconditionally reject it as a means of gender selection. We oppose the use of late-term abortion known as dilation and extraction (partial-birth abortion) and call for the end of this practice except when the physical life of the mother is in danger and no other medical procedure is available, or in the case of severe fetal anomalies incompatible with life.
    Agreed.

    BTW, none of this has to do with Obama's view on abortion...which is all forms of abortion should be legal and for any reason, and that parents shouldn't be informed about their child's abortion, even if they are as young as 12 or 13. NONE of the churches you listed there, would agree with Obama. And personally, I'm unaware of any existing church that does. I'm sure you'll find some radical church out there that may, and I suspect that they disagree with many other Christian teachings and traditional values as well.
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Instead of every point being responded to, I'll respond to what I believe are most important. If I missed something you need responded to, let me know.
    Thats fine. I'm here to debate so there is no point in chasing subjects others arn't interested in. I do the same when I don't have an interesting response.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    God's. What God says to question isn't necessarily what is explained, but what isn't necessarily explained..
    Look, you did make a clearly contradictary statement without explaining yourself. Not my fault. I find that you fail to argue why certain parts of the bible are to be followed precisely and others are not. Why some are literal and others are figurative. Or how your opinions about what is meant to be questioned and what isn't is backed up by god himself rather than just the opinions of humans that worship him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    He wasn't asked "What is Heaven like". He flat out said he has no idea what happens when you die. The Bible tells us. It may not give us all the details, but it doesn't need to for one, and Obama wasn't referring to details. He just has no idea what the Bible says about death, or he rejects its claims. Take your pick. Either way results in a RED FLAG..
    I don't think you read his statements the same way I do. He isn't questioning if there is a heaven or afterlife but what his personal fate or the fate of his children will be. None of us can say with certainty if we will go to heaven. Even those who believe are merely hoping they are qualified and going to be granted eternal life etc... Obama is being humble in his statement, not heretical.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Of course he set the requirements. The requirement isn't to be perfect, nor did I say that. Which is why of course, you just committed a strawman fallacy.
    Only vecause you set it up by saying anyone who disagrees with a bible teaching or failst to do as Jesus teaches on some topic is not a christian.

    You can set up the strawmen, I'll just set fire to them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    The requirement is that one follows Christ's path. His path is not only his example, but his teaching. Christ teaches there is 1 God and that it is through Him (Christ), one is saved. Christ speaks of damnation quite a bit. Obama outright rejects Christ's message on that one. Obama disagrees with Christ on damnation..
    Damnation and Hell are not the same thing generaly speaking. The bible, and especialy christ doesn't speak much on actual torment, only that those not saved will be denied god's grace. It is often argued that that is the state of the mortal world and thus we are already essentialy damned in our current state. There are lots of interpretations with Dante's inferno only being one fo the more imaginitive ones and not well based in any actual biblical revelations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    1) Please support "a number" of. Provide evidence. Also define "number of".
    A pointless endevor. We are both aware that Christains make claims that are occasionaly proven to simply be wrong. I provided a commonly known example. I don't wish to convince you of it or its prevalence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    2) Then explain how a radical element constitutes the majority or speaks for all.
    They don't. My proposition was not that "all or most christians are wrong all the time" It was "christians make mistakes about their beliefs and sometimes those beliefs are proven wrong" If god and the bible were pure truth and if that truth was always followed by its adherants, christians would not likely make such dramatic errors in belief as that the world will end on a given date.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    3) Then explain the stretch of relevancy here..
    Christians sometimes beleive things that are proven false despite their deep and abiding faith in Jesus and his teachings. Therefore being right is not a reasonable requirement for being Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Feel free to skip this challenge if you see the futility and error.
    I see futility in the challenge itself as it simply tries to side step simple observation of the state of religion. That not all its believers know the actual truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    You misuse/misunderstanding the teaching of "judge not" for starters. If you want me to explain I will. More importantly though, using your logic, anyone could believe anything at all about anything...and still be right..
    Please enlighten me. I take it to mean that only god can judge a mans soul and that men should look to their own souls and leave the judgement to God.

    Anyone can believe anything, but clearly if you call yourself a Christian you must have some reason for doing so. Obama goes to church and believes in god and that Jesus was his son sent to redeem us etc... That all sounds pretty christian to me. You equivicate based on specific items of dogma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    For example...according to what you just said...I could still be a Christian even if I worship Allah, regularly molest 5 year olds every Friday, believe I am a God myself, believe that it is moral to lie and deceive others, hold that marriage is immoral, and believe that to be saved, one must wear a purple tu-tu 5 days out of the year...
    I disagree. What I said is that you can disagree with specific items of dogma or belief and that you can act in ways contrary to yoru religious teachings and still be a member of the religion because pretty much everyone does it to some extent. You are trying to extend that to an extreem that clearly crosses a lot of rather absurd bounderies. And that is a true strawman argument.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    According to you, standards don't exist. Obviously, quite problematic.
    Its bad form to put words in other peoples mouths unless you can quote them saying it. What I am saying is that the standards are set by god, not men and that men are not much qualified to judge them as a result. You can easily attempt to claim X person is or isn't a christian, but in truth you don't actualy know, only beleive you know the mind of god.

    Answer this... do men decide who is a true christian and who goes to heaven or does god decide that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Actually, he says more about death than almost anything else. He speaks of what it means to be saved and damned. He speaks of Heaven and Hell. He speaks of the afterlife being a permanent state of being and this one being temporal. It doesn't seem you've opened your Bible in quite some time. .
    Really? I would assert you are incorrect and that Jesus speaks on topics other than death more than he speaks on death. He speaks on love and redemption more often than death. As you claim some expertise on the subject I challenge you to show me otherwise. I'd also like to see a quote about what he says about hell if you are amiable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    It's one thing to stay on that course with intent yet falter at times...it's another to go through the words and repeatedly violate God's commands intentionally..
    While I generaly agree with you here, your contention that this somehow applies to what Obama said in that interview mystifies me. I don't see where he is breaking any commandments or being willfuly disobedient to god. He is merely expressing his feelings that people of other faiths are still children of god and that they naturaly seek a higher power. Many christians offer that as evidence of gods existence after all. I think he exemplifies Jesus's essentail teachings better than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Jesus says that He does not know these people. They were never His followers...for they never really knew Him.
    Show me which part of the bible you are refering to please. Not that I dobut you I just want to be able to argue it inteligently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Irrelevant to the belief system and the point itself. As I said...it could be false, but that doesn't remove the attributes or characteristics of the belief systems.
    The point is you are arguing someone is a christian or not based on their intrepretation of the bible. Its the same book, you just have a different read of it. That doesn't mean either of you is right and neither of you are really qualified to say that you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    Apok: Unicorns are magical horses with a single horn on their heads. They are traditionally white and sometimes, have wings.
    Sig: Actualy, some unicorns loose thier horns so actaly all horses are in a sense unicorns, they are only missing a cosmetic alteration. And any horse like creture with wings is a pegasus, reguardless of horn status.
    Apok: Right, they lack the real world existence. But through myth and stories, we do know that such mythical characters, are horse-like, have a single horn...thus unicorn and sometimes have magical properties.
    Sig: Not all stories aggree on the characteristics of unicorns nor of thier existance. Some feel that unicorns are actualy mutant goats. This seems plausable and the stories only exagerate that original ideal.
    Apok: But that doesn't mean that the creature we know as a unicorn through stories, doesn't have certain properties.
    Sig: The essential problem is that because they are only stories you can't really say what the true characteristics are. Thus differences of opinon are entirely justified.
    Apok: Right, but only in the real world does it not exist. It does exist in stories and make-believe, so we can at least know some attributes of this make-believe creature. There are standards of attributes to this being...it's how we know it is not a dragon or a fairie. These other mythical characters have different characteristics.
    Sig: Dragons are a good case. While some elements are farily consistan, the specifics of what a dragon is or how it opperates vary greatly to the extent that few are identical and no one trait is consistant to all dragons making difinitive taxonimy almost impossible. A true dragon to one story is an abomination to another. Due to a lack of a difinitive authroity on dragons no one can honestly claim a dragon like creature is or is not a dragon, only judge how close to thier own standards the beast appears.
    .
    Fixed that for you! Again, its doesn't pay to put stupid words in the mouth of your opponent. Better to ask.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    You get the point. That something exists or does not, in no way takes away from the knowable attributes of the being or belief system. It may be false (belief system), but we do know for a fact, that some characteristics must be, in order for what is being described, to fit that belief system.
    I do get your point but you don't seem to get mine. That you trying to judge the factuality of Obamas beleifs based on your own opinons of christianity and what was quoted in a fairly informal and brief interview is rather tenuous and presumptive.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    BTW, none of this has to do with Obama's view on abortion...which is all forms of abortion should be legal and for any reason, and that parents shouldn't be informed about their child's abortion, even if they are as young as 12 or 13. NONE of the churches you listed there, would agree with Obama. And personally, I'm unaware of any existing church that does. I'm sure you'll find some radical church out there that may, and I suspect that they disagree with many other Christian teachings and traditional values as well.
    There is likely a difference between Obama's political position and his personal beleifs. I for instance think it is ok to kill someone who rapes your wife. The public policy of the country differs from that and I think such laws are good ones. Obama may feel that abortion is termination of a human life, but he may not be willing to take that belief (based on a religious view) and force peoplpe with different religious views to adhere to it.
    Last edited by Sigfried; September 5th, 2008 at 02:42 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by Apokalupsis View Post
    But, but all do with murder. One key issue comes down to when the being is considered human. It isn't killing that is wrong, it is murder. The being must be human. Some churches ahve different views on WHEN the being is human.
    Forgive me if I am misunderstanding you here but correct me if I am wrong on my thinking here please...
    Are you saying that the reason some churches hold different views is because not all christians believe that a fetus is a human at conception therefor the abortion will not be considered murder?



    BTW, none of this has to do with Obama's view on abortion...which is all forms of abortion should be legal and for any reason, and that parents shouldn't be informed about their child's abortion, even if they are as young as 12 or 13.
    No it has nothing to do with Obama's view and the reasoning behind that is because I wanted an overall view of the christian look... Don't worry I am getting to Obama's view...
    BTW, I disagree with the stance on not informing the parents if they are a minor. The parents has to be informed of everything else a child does legal wise, medically they have to have a parents signature for treatment, so what makes this any different? Which I am also not an Obama fan either so...
    NONE of the churches you listed there, would agree with Obama. And personally, I'm unaware of any existing church that does. I'm sure you'll find some radical church out there that may, and I suspect that they disagree with many other Christian teachings and traditional values as well.
    I wasn't looking for churches that agreed with Obama's entire stance.. I was looking for churches that agreed with abortion itself. Notice I never once mentioned Obama in that post

    I'm sure there are some radical church out there that would agree with Obama. But I am not looking for radical. I am looking for logical.. Huge difference there Apok, I know you are aware of that because you are a very logical man...

    The point of the post above was to show that not all christians/churches share the exact same moral beliefs... Some believe that no form of abortion should be legal while some feel morally that a specific form should be legal.. So which church do you go by?

    Let me ask this, (not being a smart ass, I am asking because I honestly do not know)
    Has Obama ever once claimed that abortion is not against the the bible?
    Show me the government that does not infringe upon anyone's rights, and I will no longer call myself an anarchist.~Jacob Halbrooks
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    By their fruits will you know them. American Christians generally support Israel.

    Barack Hussein Obama declassifies sensitive information about Israel's nuclear program, while refraining from that with our other allies: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...5#.VRR1E-G5R9U

    At the same time, he is negotiating an agreement with Iran that will end up giving them nuclear weapons. This is a known sponsor of Militant Islamic terrorists and a country whose leaders vow to destroy Israel.

    Just a couple more points suggesting that Obama is not a Christian.
    Last edited by evensaul; March 26th, 2015 at 02:41 PM.
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    By their fruits will you know them. American Christians generally support Israel.
    American Jews often support Israel as well, but not all Jews. American Catholic Priests have molested little boys yet they are still Catholic. You are veering into the no true Scotsman territory here. The real definition of a Christian is someone who professes to be a follower of the teachings of Jesus Christ. Beyond that its all about what denomination you are and how you interpret scripture and priestly teaching.

    Mind you as a Christian you may well have your own standards for who rates and who doesn't, lots of Christians do. You are welcome to them but I feel they aren't very good practical definitions and I certainly wouldn't use them.

    Barack Hussein Obama declassifies sensitive information about Israel's nuclear program, while refraining from that with our other allies: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Ne...5#.VRR1E-G5R9U
    Israel is out of compliance with every international law and agreement to do with nuclear weapons. Friends don't always lie for friends, sometimes they tell the truth and are still friends. And of course in this case a private journalist had sued the administration to release the documents and won his case so they didn't actually have a choice in the matter. Finally, pretty much everyone knows Israel has nukes. You can read all about it on Wikipedia in fact... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_weapons_and_Israel

    At the same time, he is negotiating an agreement with Iran that will end up giving them nuclear weapons. This is a known sponsor of Militant Islamic terrorists and a country whose leaders vow to destroy Israel.
    What crap! They are negotiating an agreement to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons, not to give them some. I've heard this talking point a few times from some of the more empty headed pundits.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    And on abortion, Obama thanks Planned Parenthood and asks God to bless that evil organization: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...ood-conference

    Disgusting.
    "If we lose freedom here, there is no place to escape to. This is the last stand on Earth." - Ronald Reagan

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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    And on abortion, Obama thanks Planned Parenthood and asks God to bless that evil organization: https://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press...ood-conference

    Disgusting.
    You likely know very little about planned parenthood. I've actually worked with them a few times and taken my wife there as well as girlfriends (and no, not to get abortions but to get birth control prescriptions).

    There is nothing remotely evil going on there. I'm sure since you see abortion as evil you disagree, but that is a relatively small part of their day to day business. 80% of their work is birth control services and education which prevent unwanted pregnancies and thus dramatically lowers the number of people seeking abortion. They also do a lot of cancer screening and STD screening which is a great public health benefit.

    They likely save more lives and prevent more abortions than every christian service in the US put together.
    Feed me some debate pellets!

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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    The word Christian covers an enormous scope of behaviour. Its a favorable label, but like all labels it does not proclaim the man. Life- style is the give away in all these things.Very few follow the life style of Jesus Christ, it is a hard torturous path with no room for personal enjoyment.
    As Gandi said ' we would all be christians if it wasn't for the Christians'.

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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by evensaul View Post
    Just a couple more points suggesting that Obama is not a Christian.
    Let me see if I understand your position, because it sounds somewhat judgmental which I think Christians are encouraged to stay clear of. Matthew 7:1

    So, let’s say a political leader embraces (lives) the two most important commandments as best he can: loves God with all his heart and his neighbor as himself, and he embraces the golden rule. However, he doesn’t embrace political issues (social and other) that support Christian views – how specificailly does that not make him a Christian? Is he not a Christian by your human criteria because of his political views and actions, though he may be personally living and embracing the two most important commandments Christ gave us?
    Last edited by eye4magic; March 31st, 2015 at 10:05 PM.
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    Re: Obama is not a Christian

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    Let me see if I understand your position, because it sounds somewhat judgmental which I think Christians are encouraged to stay clear of. Matthew 7:1
    "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with the judgment you pronounce you will be judged, and with the measure you use it will be measured to you."

    What does the word "judge" mean in Matthew 7:1-2 and similar passages?

    Who is the judge in "you will be judged"?

    Quote Originally Posted by eye4magic View Post
    So, let’s say a political leader embraces (lives) the two most important commandments as best he can: loves God with all his heart and his neighbor as himself, and he embraces the golden rule. However, he doesn’t embrace political issues (social and other) that support Christian views – how specifically does that not make him a Christian? Is he not a Christian by your human criteria because of his political views and actions, though he may be personally living and embracing the two most important commandments Christ gave us?
    Are you claiming that describes Obama? If not, I don't see how a hypothetical is very relevant.

    And if you are claiming that it is Obama, then read a little further down in Matthew, about how a good tree doesn't produce bad fruit. The fruit is visible product of the tree. So we should view Obama's actions, because his works are representative of his beliefs.

    Also in the same book, Matthew 7:21

    21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

    And finally, faith without works is dead. James 2:26
    Last edited by evensaul; April 1st, 2015 at 02:07 PM.
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