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  1. #1
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    Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    So we evacuated, and now it is illegal for me to go home.
    Should the federal Gov, be able to restrict travel in this way?

    As far as I can tell, there are several reasons, none of which are justifiable reasons, and infringe on my freedom.

    1) It is too dangerous.

    This is actually a two part reason. Of course it is dangerouse, and the state deciding what is too dangerous is wrong in every sense.
    The second part is that we will be on our own. In other words, because the state can not take care us, we are not allowed into the area. This is also unacceptable.

    2) I may be a criminal trying to loot those not home.

    So my freedom of travel is being limited because I may want to break the law. (as a side note, the police have pulled guns on people who are in another persons yard.. IE a friend went to check on a friends house, police saw him, and advised at gun point that he get back in his car)

    3) We will be on our own. Litterally in every sense. No public services at all.
    So because the Gov is not there, we can not be there.


    I disagree with any reason to restrict the travel of Citizens. If there is a good reason that you can think of that applies to this situation, I would like to hear it.




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  2. #2
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Here is my weak, first impression response:

    The government has an obligation to save you should you be in danger. The cost of doing so is prohibitive in those areas (and an unfair tax burden on those obeying the law). Therefore, until they get to a point where they can fulfill their obligation to you in those areas, you are asked to stay out of those areas.

    Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.

  3. #3
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    While I understand your point, all that is required is for the Gov to express that the services of saving my life will not be provided should I chose to cross (x) line. This was done expressed toward those who stayed behind. As the Gov can not/ or at least will not force you out of your home at gun point. In the same way, they should not be able to keep you from traveling to your home.


    Also we are not "asked", we are forced through police roadblocks.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    I guess you were the one of many to be evacuated from New Orleans?

    I think the Government is acting in your best interests. They want you to be protected and make sure you are safe, and that the city is safe before they allow you to go home. I would be grateful that my Government had my best interests at heart.
    It surely won't be too much longer before you are permitted to return home.
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  5. #5
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So we evacuated, and now it is illegal for me to go home.
    Should the federal Gov, be able to restrict travel in this way?
    I will say yes, because if it is really too dangerous then it is to protect you, right? Or am I missing a point here?

    Why exactly is it wrong for the state to decide what is too dangerous?

    A few months ago there were violence outside the small town I live and when I wanted to go to work the Police told me I may not go because they feared that I might be killed. They blocked off all the roads which I use to get to work.

    I was feeling pretty much the same way you are feeling now, as I thought who the hell are they to prevent me from going from A to B.

    After the violence was over and things calmed down and I read a little bit of news and saw how many people was injured and that they burned out a few busses on the roads, I was pretty glad they did stop me.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Tarja, I actually evacuated from houma, some 60miles south west of New Orleans. We took a direct hit.

    While it is the job of the gov to protect us. It is not to protect us from ourselves. The idea of "best interest", smacks in the face of a free society. Were the communists acting in the "best interest" of the state when they kept citizens from meeting? After all, the welfare of the people depended on a stable state.

    Asp, "Too dangerous" is a dangerous term to allow the state to dictate. Soon it will be too dangerous for citizens to have guns, or to speek against the state. The Gov never found a power it didn't like, and allowing small infringment of rights for safty is where all rights disappear.

    There was a famouse quote but I can't remember who said it. something like "A people who give up rights for safty deserve niether." I know it was one of the founding fathers.

    The thing that worries me, is that when people are scared they give up rights. This is a classic example. Because of someone elses fear for me, they decide to make the dissicion for me. That is not American, it is communist.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliceLiddell View Post
    The government has an obligation to save you should you be in danger.
    Why?
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  8. #8
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So we evacuated, and now it is illegal for me to go home.
    Should the federal Gov, be able to restrict travel in this way?

    As far as I can tell, there are several reasons, none of which are justifiable reasons, and infringe on my freedom.

    1) It is too dangerous.

    This is actually a two part reason. Of course it is dangerouse, and the state deciding what is too dangerous is wrong in every sense.
    The second part is that we will be on our own. In other words, because the state can not take care us, we are not allowed into the area. This is also unacceptable.

    2) I may be a criminal trying to loot those not home.

    So my freedom of travel is being limited because I may want to break the law. (as a side note, the police have pulled guns on people who are in another persons yard.. IE a friend went to check on a friends house, police saw him, and advised at gun point that he get back in his car)

    3) We will be on our own. Litterally in every sense. No public services at all.
    So because the Gov is not there, we can not be there.


    I disagree with any reason to restrict the travel of Citizens. If there is a good reason that you can think of that applies to this situation, I would like to hear it.




    1.2.3. DEBATE!!!!
    SHort of declaring Martial Law, I can not see where any government can legally restrict any person from travelling to or entering one's home.

    Having said that "Curfews" are in place, which leads one to assume that some of martial law has been declared.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by AliceLiddell View Post
    Here is my weak, first impression response:

    The government has an obligation to save you should you be in danger.
    No, they do not. No such legal obligation exists.
    Last edited by Spartacus; September 4th, 2008 at 12:50 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  9. #9
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by MindTrap028 View Post
    So we evacuated, and now it is illegal for me to go home.
    Should the federal Gov, be able to restrict travel in this way?

    As far as I can tell, there are several reasons, none of which are justifiable reasons, and infringe on my freedom.

    1) It is too dangerous.

    This is actually a two part reason. Of course it is dangerouse, and the state deciding what is too dangerous is wrong in every sense.
    The second part is that we will be on our own. In other words, because the state can not take care us, we are not allowed into the area. This is also unacceptable.

    2) I may be a criminal trying to loot those not home.

    So my freedom of travel is being limited because I may want to break the law. (as a side note, the police have pulled guns on people who are in another persons yard.. IE a friend went to check on a friends house, police saw him, and advised at gun point that he get back in his car)

    3) We will be on our own. Litterally in every sense. No public services at all.
    So because the Gov is not there, we can not be there.


    I disagree with any reason to restrict the travel of Citizens. If there is a good reason that you can think of that applies to this situation, I would like to hear it.




    1.2.3. DEBATE!!!!
    It's very simple. Someone is being asked to look over the evacuation. They are responsible for your well-being, and they act to take care of you. Now, if one REALLY wants to go back, then I think that should be one's prerogative. But before one does, one should be forced to sign this contract:



    "I am _____. I hereby assert that I am entering myself for the Darwin awards. I do in fact know that going back into the scene of a flooded zone before any sane person would is several levels past what most mental health professionals would label as "goddammed stupid". I do, in fact, understand that the same thought process killed thousands of people almost exactly three years ago, and that thought patterns similar to mine caused one of the worst events in recent American history.

    I submit that I don't care; I believe that probability and reason are for lesser people. I believe that I know better than weathermen, history, and common sense. I submit that I will risk everything because I know better than all of those silly college "edjumakated" people who are trying to force their "governmental coercion" down my throat and restrain my civil liberties during a time of, what I perceive to be, a non-existent crisis.

    For these reasons, I accept that if I am wrong, that I deserve death, and that I will in fact bring my family with me. After all, if I have a death wish, my children should naturally follow me because they are a part of my property rights. So in this way, we can all die together and retroactively fulfill the Darwin Awards requirement of taking myself out of the gene pool.

    Wish me luck,

    ______"




    Was that too subtle?
    "Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities." --Voltaire

  10. #10
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    I think that's a bit unfair, GF. I may happen to agree with your point in general, but you've put a lot of opinion and unjustified positions in there.

    -Is there any flooding comparable with what happened last time?

    -Is the danger present comparable with what happened last time?

    -Is it "stupid" to want to go back home?

    I do think people should listen to the authorities and not go back yet if asked/ordered to stay out (I understand this has been lifted, but for the sake of argument, let's say it hasn't) but jail time or other punishment shouldn't be imposed of people don't listen. We're talking people's homes here.

    I liken this to ski resorts on big mountains. They have advanced skier areas specifically marked for advanced skiers only, through tight trees, over boulders and cliffs, and man are they steep!

    There are also areas that are specifically closed, to advanced skiers or anyone else, and some of the marked trails become like this early or late in the season as there isn't enough snow to make them ski-able. These areas are marked with signs stating that entering is illegal, and if you get hurt no one may ever find you. If you manage to contact someone by whatever means (cell phone, radio, beacon, smoke signal, whatever) that search and rescue will be paid for BY YOU.

    Ambulance rides lasting less that 10 miles are somewhere around $1000. I don't want to know what a helicopter/ski rescue team would cost.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by GoldPhoenix View Post
    It's very simple. Someone is being asked to look over the evacuation. They are responsible for your well-being, and they act to take care of you. Now, if one REALLY wants to go back, then I think that should be one's prerogative. But before one does, one should be forced to sign this contract:




    Was that too subtle?

    Wait.. someone is responsible for my well-being other than me? ...When did this happen? Did I get a new MOM?

    No, the gov job is to inforce laws. I shouldn't be breaking any laws by traviling to my house.... and just so you know. Many people here have camps surrounded by watter, so going to a HOUSE surrounded by watter is not really a big deal. Of course, Houma is not New Orleans. There isn't 4-8ft of standing watter around, because there aren't many levies to hold it in. We are also blessed because we are at +6ft above sea level... not -10ft as new Orelans is.

    The problem I have is the assumption that the Gov knows better than I do. Also, if they keep me out, and my house is looted.. who's fault is that? Shouldn't the gov then be liable for replacing all of my lost property if refuse to allow me to protect it, and take care of it myself? They should be, but then of course that would give them more "reason" to intrude on my life.

    The gov should have to tell people "there will be NO social services". Then let people make thier own discission. All this "making the decision for me" bites.
    If I want to take a boat to my house.. then so be it.
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  12. #12
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Looking at it from the government's perspective. There are two choices.

    Choice 1 will allow more people freedom, but Choice 2 will bring minimum amount of deaths/injuries. The question is, which is the better choice?

    I say human lives are worth more than the ideal of freedom being infringed. I see nothing wrong with having the government decide what is too "dangerous" for the people, because as long as the roots of democracy are kept, if the government's judgment is too off, the people can merely push them aside at the next election.

  13. #13
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Spartacus View Post
    No, they do not. No such legal obligation exists.
    I may have misstated this. I will try to provide more evidence of the point I was trying to make.

    In the meantime, emergency room doctors do have an obligation to treat patients facing life-threatening situations regardless of whether the patient has insurance.

    Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.

  14. #14
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    We have a freedom to travel wherever we want?
    "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts." ~Bertrand Russell

  15. #15
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDEL View Post
    I say human lives are worth more than the ideal of freedom being infringed.
    Be extremely careful here.

    I'm surprised someone didn't see this and shout PATRIOT ACT at the top of their lungs yet.
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  16. #16
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    I'm surprised someone didn't see this and shout PATRIOT ACT at the top of their lungs yet.
    Well, this wouldn't be a problem within the context of my post, since I did say the following:

    Quote Originally Posted by me
    I say human lives are worth more than the ideal of freedom being infringed. I see nothing wrong with having the government decide what is too "dangerous" for the people, because as long as the roots of democracy are kept, if the government's judgment is too off, the people can merely push them aside at the next election.

  17. #17
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    I was just sayin, man, be careful. That statement is a loaded gun.

    One could argue Communism has human lives and interests at heart at it's basest levels, and so is justified to limit any and all freedoms as it sees fit to secure safety and prosperity for it's people.
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  18. #18
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    On the one hand, government, according to the U.S. Constitution, is to protect the well-being of its citizens.

    We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
    and this social contract was based on the an important premise posited by Rousseau.
    Whoever refuses to obey the general will shall be forced to obey it by the whole body politic, which means nothing else but that he will be forced to be free.
    So, protecting an individual's welfare, while it may contradict the idea of absolute liberty, is a means of securing your well-being and which ensures your freedom. So, from this standpoint, the government has an absolute right and duty to prevent you from going home if such an action is inherently dangerous.
    The U.S. is currently enduring a zombie apocalypse. However, in a strange twist, the zombie's are starving.

  19. #19
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by AliceLiddell View Post
    I may have misstated this. I will try to provide more evidence of the point I was trying to make.

    In the meantime, emergency room doctors do have an obligation to treat patients facing life-threatening situations regardless of whether the patient has insurance.
    Ok, this doesn't explain to me why you think the government is "obligated" to save us if we're in danger. You didn't answer that, I don't think. I am also curious if you think that it is "necessary" that hospitals treat patients regardless of insurance. Or is it something that might occur if it wasn't "law?"
    "And that, my lord, is how we know the Earth to be banana-shaped." ~ Monty Python


  20. #20
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    Re: Illegal to travel in the U.S.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    On the one hand, government, according to the U.S. Constitution, is to protect the well-being of its citizens.

    [A quotation of the Preamble follows.]
    Since when does the Preamble have legal force?

    and this social contract was based on the an important premise posited by Rousseau.
    Just because Rousseau posited a premise does not mean he was correct.

    So, protecting an individual's welfare, while it may contradict the idea of absolute liberty, is a means of securing your well-being and which ensures your freedom. So, from this standpoint, the government has an absolute right and duty to prevent you from going home if such an action is inherently dangerous.
    It would seem that, from that standpoint, the government has an absolute right and duty to do anything that it considers protecting its subjects' welfare -- whether they agree or not. Do you see a problem with that? I do, but that's just me.
    “When men hire themselves out to shoot other men to order, asking nothing about the justice of their cause, I don’t care if they are shot themselves."

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