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  1. #1
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    When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    I've addressed this fact in many threads and I never get any direct responses from those on the liberal and/or Democrat side of the arguments.

    The poorest 50% of wage earners in this country pay approximately 3% of the income tax burden in the US.

    The wealthiest 1% of wage earners we keep hearing about pay 40% of the income tax burden.

    http://www.ntu.org/main/page.php?PageID=6

    My question to Democrats and/or liberals is a simple one. At what point will you say that the "rich" are paying their fair share? Notice I put rich in quotation marks. That's because the threshold for being in the top 1% is 388k per year in income. That's alot of money, but I would guess it's much less than most people would have guessed.

    I hear lots of talk from Senator Obama about cutting taxes on the poor and middle class. I'm all for that, because those people worked for that money, it's theirs. But they pay almost nothing to begin with! Giving them a tax break is the right thing to do, but other than being nice for them, it accomplishes nothing. It will have little impact when it comes to spurring financial growth and investment in this country.

    The class warfare waged by the left in this country must stop. The poor aren't inherently noble, and the rich aren't inherently evil. And most people's assumptions about the rich are flat-out wrong. Read the book "The Millionaire Next Door". The author interviewed 1,300 millionaires for his research. Here are some things that he found:

    • 2/3 are self employed
    • Most received no inheritence, and 80% are first-generation affluent
    • Over 80% attended public schools
    • Nearly half received no college tuition from family


    Rich people are generally that way because they WORK for it, not because it was given to them. These are the very people who have been the backbone of the amazing wealth creation seen in this country in the last 230 years.

    I'm not against a progressive income tax system. But hearing people like Joe Biden make idiotic statements to the effect that the rich paying more taxes is their "patriotic duty" is asinine. Creating wealth and jobs are patriotic, not getting bent over by people who've shown no fiscal responsibility.

  2. #2
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    This is rather disingenuous. How much does that wealthy 1% make in a year? Think about this. Even if we all paid a flat 15%, those people will still pay the majority of the overall income tax liability. Making them pay less in taxes isn't going to change that. I fail to see where this argument has any substance... aside from the fact that I think income tax overall is immoral, but that's another thread, I'm afraid.
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  3. #3
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    This is rather disingenuous. How much does that wealthy 1% make in a year? Think about this. Even if we all paid a flat 15%, those people will still pay the majority of the overall income tax liability. Making them pay less in taxes isn't going to change that. I fail to see where this argument has any substance... aside from the fact that I think income tax overall is immoral, but that's another thread, I'm afraid.
    Both the bottom 50% and top 1% each make about 15% of the total wages earned in the US.

    My argument isn't so much with the tax system itself as it is with the notion that rich people somehow are "getting over" at the expense of the middle and lower class.

    The average person in this country is under the impression that rich people don't really pay much in taxes because of "loopholes" and deductions that the middle class and poor can't take. It's ridiculous how successful people are looked at with contempt in this country.

    I know one thing to be completely true. I never got a job or a loan from a poor person.

  4. #4
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    I say a flat tax and cut programs that aren't working. Also, legalize the sale of drugs and prostitution so states can get those taxes.

    The rich are paying their fair share. Their taxes are high, but not as high as in previous years. Bush just needs to stop pumping hundreds of billions of dollars into Iraq. Would be nice if we had that money now.

  5. #5
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Myth View Post
    The rich are paying their fair share.
    And you call yourself a Democrat...

  6. #6
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69 View Post
    And you call yourself a Democrat...
    I'm an Independent. I pick and choose from the whole spectrum of political ideology.

  7. #7
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Myth View Post
    I'm an Independent. I pick and choose from the whole spectrum of political ideology.
    So does Fascism.

    I'm just kidding, though. I'm not calling you a Fascist.

    The only really "fair" way to tax anyone, I hate to say it, is the Mike Huckabee-backed Fair Tax. Flat 26% sales tax, across the board. No income tax. No property tax. No special taxes on anything.

    This also flattens the criminal loop-holes of unreported income, sometimes in the billions of dollars. If they want to buy anything, and I mean anything - milk, eggs, Porsches, golf club memberships, $1000 shoes, houses for their wives, apartments for their girlfriends - they'd be paying tax on all of it. So would you, naturally, but you'd also have that 33% in your pocket that you already pay, so you'd be making out.

    This is a neat idea because it doesn't "punish" earning and reward lower tax brackets. You basically pay more taxes the more stuff you buy.

    Now, there are some theoretical problems with this, of course. But that's it's own debate entirely.

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  8. #8
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    I think the heart of this debate is an important because it has been a slogan of Democrats for years. Kerry said it a ton of times. Now, Biden has called people out for not paying enough. What, though, is enough? I think it is a fair question. Is it 40%, 50%, 60%, 70% ... ? What makes any of those rates fair? This is the terminology of the Democrat party mainstream. Yet, I don't think anyone has held them down to define exactly what they mean.

    At best, we can sort of guess what Democrats mean when they say wealthy. Obama has set the number at $250,000. Is someone making that much money truly wealthy? Well off. Sure. Wealthy? Maybe if they live in Oklahoma and drive a pick-up truck and don't have children. If they live in Orange County, CA, have a few kids, are paying for college and/or private school, then they probably aren't wealthy in the most common usage of the term.

    I wish one of those dumb reporters would ask Mr. Obama what he means. No one asked Kerry either. The masses of plastic journalists just nodded their heads at their liberal icon friends. Yeessss! Pay their fair share! Just ridiculous.
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  9. #9
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd View Post
    At best, we can sort of guess what Democrats mean when they say wealthy. Obama has set the number at $250,000. Is someone making that much money truly wealthy? Well off. Sure. Wealthy? Maybe if they live in Oklahoma and drive a pick-up truck and don't have children. If they live in Orange County, CA, have a few kids, are paying for college and/or private school, then they probably aren't wealthy in the most common usage of the term.
    Yes, beascue wealthy only means you fly in a personal jet, wear pure gold jewelery and spend thosands of dollars on wine. Come on.

    The beginning is $250,000 not the end. Any person that makes that much money is rich in my books. Talk to anybody that when't to university for years, has a masters degree and only makes 40-50K a year. You must live is some sort of bubble if you think 250K is not rich...

    Some of you guys must be pretty wealthy yourselves because obviously you don't have a clue what the average working person lives on.

    FACT:According to the Census Bureau, the pretax median household income in 2007 was $50,233. Not even close to $250,000.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...an_development
    HINT: This is a trick question

  10. #10
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithran View Post
    Yes, beascue wealthy only means you fly in a personal jet, wear pure gold jewelery and spend thosands of dollars on wine. Come on.

    The beginning is $250,000 not the end. Any person that makes that much money is rich in my books. Talk to anybody that when't to university for years, has a masters degree and only makes 40-50K a year. You must live is some sort of bubble if you think 250K is not rich...

    Some of you guys must be pretty wealthy yourselves because obviously you don't have a clue what the average working person lives on.

    FACT:According to the Census Bureau, the pretax median household income in 2007 was $50,233. Not even close to $250,000.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...an_development
    Mithran, I really wanted to avoid the "what is wealthy and what is not" aspect of this issue. That's why I chose the top 1% vs. the bottom 50% as the topic of this thread. The threshold for that is 388k in earnings. While not "filthy" rich, it's rich. I think we can all agree on that.

    But the question remains - That top 1% (lets call them group A) collectively pays 40% of the tax burden. The bottom 50% (this is group B) pays 3% of the tax burden. Group A and Group B both collectively earn around 13-15% of the wages earned in the US, yet Group A pays 13 times more than Group B.

    Now, whether the situation I've shown is fair is not my question. My question is, who can really make the case that the rich aren't "paying their fair share"?


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
    So does Fascism.

    I'm just kidding, though. I'm not calling you a Fascist.

    The only really "fair" way to tax anyone, I hate to say it, is the Mike Huckabee-backed Fair Tax. Flat 26% sales tax, across the board. No income tax. No property tax. No special taxes on anything.

    This also flattens the criminal loop-holes of unreported income, sometimes in the billions of dollars. If they want to buy anything, and I mean anything - milk, eggs, Porsches, golf club memberships, $1000 shoes, houses for their wives, apartments for their girlfriends - they'd be paying tax on all of it. So would you, naturally, but you'd also have that 33% in your pocket that you already pay, so you'd be making out.

    This is a neat idea because it doesn't "punish" earning and reward lower tax brackets. You basically pay more taxes the more stuff you buy.

    Now, there are some theoretical problems with this, of course. But that's it's own debate entirely.

    Sorry for the sidebar.
    Gonzo,

    Be careful about posting things like this. What you've posted is only a portion of the "Fair Tax". In reading it I immediately realized that if someone who's never read about the Fair Tax got their initial information from this post they would come to at least one incorrect conclusion: That this tax plan is extremely unfair to the poor and middle class.

    But you and I both know that it's not. You've left out the provisions in this tax plan that would actually virtually eliminate taxes for the poor and lower middle class.

    I encourage anyone interested in the facts about the "fair tax" to go to http://www.fairtax.org
    Last edited by cds69; September 20th, 2008 at 01:35 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  11. #11
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69 View Post
    When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?
    At 100% taxation on income, and confiscation of current assets.

  12. #12
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    It's true, this is not an actual argument the Dem's stand by. It is an effort to divide the country. Fact is, the poor have more votes than the rich, and can essentially vote themselves money. By invoking class warfare Dem's hope to stay in power. I don't believe the Dem's want to confiscate all the assets (that is communism), they just want to confiscate enough money to keep the poor on their side. The problem I have is
    1) It's UnAmerican
    2)... I do want to be rich .. 250K a year sounds good to me.

    So the answer is.
    Dem's will never say "enough, the rich pay enough", because that is how they get elected (or at least try to)
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  13. #13
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by ladyphoenix View Post
    This is rather disingenuous. How much does that wealthy 1% make in a year? Think about this. Even if we all paid a flat 15%, those people will still pay the majority of the overall income tax liability. Making them pay less in taxes isn't going to change that. I fail to see where this argument has any substance... aside from the fact that I think income tax overall is immoral, but that's another thread, I'm afraid.
    Actually ladyphoenix, it's YOUR argument that is disingenuous. You argue that if we all paid a flat 15% tax that those people would pay the majority of all income tax liability. That's completely incorrect. It's basic math.

    The richest one percent earn approximately 13-15% of all wages. If we were all paying the same flat rate on all income, they would therefore pay 13-15% of the income tax liability, not the 40% that they pay now.

    And you've completely ignored the purpose of my OP. The question isn't should they pay less. The issue is the complete lack of justification on the part of liberal Democrats who insist they should pay more in the name of "fairness".

  14. #14
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    The Top 40% of wage earners pay 100% (yes you are correctly reading that) of america`s taxes. Cutting taxes for the poor is nonsense. Basically the reverse logic of vote-buying..............
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  15. #15
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bobson52 View Post
    The Top 40% of wage earners pay 100% (yes you are correctly reading that) of america`s taxes. Cutting taxes for the poor is nonsense. Basically the reverse logic of vote-buying..............
    I'm glad you agree with me, but your math is messed up, or you made a typo.

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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Probably a typo. it's been a crazy day. sports all day i'm just bagged.
    "Woo good things do happen to bad people" Homer Simpson
    "Oh I have 3 kids and no money, why can't I have no kids and 3 money" Homer Simpson
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  17. #17
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69 View Post
    The richest one percent earn approximately 13-15% of all wages. If we were all paying the same flat rate on all income, they would therefore pay 13-15% of the income tax liability, not the 40% that they pay now.
    That statistic you keep citing is somewhat misleading. Upper class people tend to have non-wage income. Which is why, while they only have 13-15% of wages, they have 35-40% of privately held wealth. 40% of wealth...40% of taxes...huh, go figure.
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    If Obama wants to increase taxes for the rich, then why do Spielberg, Oprah, and other rich celebs want him in the White House so badly?

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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Quote Originally Posted by Castle View Post
    That statistic you keep citing is somewhat misleading. Upper class people tend to have non-wage income. Which is why, while they only have 13-15% of wages, they have 35-40% of privately held wealth. 40% of wealth...40% of taxes...huh, go figure.
    Wealth? They're called "INCOME TAXES" not "WEALTH TAXES". Wealth is accumulated. They've already paid taxes on what they've accumulated. If you open up a savings account and put a thousand dollars in, you've not taxed on that thousand dollars every year.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by Wolf Myth View Post
    If Obama wants to increase taxes for the rich, then why do Spielberg, Oprah, and other rich celebs want him in the White House so badly?
    Because they're so rich it doesn't matter to them.

    I could conversely ask you, if Sarah Palin and John McCain are going to be such a "step backwards for women's rights", why do so many women want them in the white house?
    Last edited by cds69; September 20th, 2008 at 08:26 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  20. #20
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    Re: When will Democrats say that the rich pay enough taxes?

    Its a good question.

    I think the real answer is that its mostly political. The democrats say they want to tax the rich for two reasons. 1. They want to get votes from the lower and middle class. 2. They have something of a robin hood ethos.

    But how much is enough is a very good question I'd like to see them actualy answer. Puts them in a very tough spot.

    On the other hand I'd like to see the republicans actualy "pay" for all the tax cuts they are always on about by actualy cutting government spending in key areas instad of all this BS about how tax cuts pay for themselves. The GOP has run up enormous debt and deficits whenever they have the white house, reguardless of which party controls congress. Its really sad that the fiscal conservatives are the big go for broke spenders and the bleeding hearts are the ones that seem to keep a lid on the deficit when in office. (of courese they have had less opportunities as of late so it could just be Clinton was a unique budgetary genious).

    When will the republicans say taxes on the wealthy are "low enough"?

    Personaly I'm generaly for smaller government but I also think we need to damn well pay for what we spend. If that means higher taxes then that's what it means. It's not like tax money vanishes. It gets back in the economy just like private money does. It's usualy just a question of eficiency and fairness when unlcle sam is doing the spending.

    The problem is that Americans want government to spend lots of money, even the "conservatives". And they also want to keep as much of thier paychecks as possible. Any politition wtiht he balls to demand we actualy pay for all our demands gets the boot real quick. Sadly the republicans are willing to pander to both desires silmutaneously. At least the democrats are slightly realistic about what it takes to do all that stuff... aka money. Howevery I think you do have to ask all levels of society to chip in, not just the rich.

    Of coruse its only natural those with more assets are going to pay more. Personaly I've never resented paying my taxes. I like my country and it seems well worth the price I pay to live in one of the greatest and most secure nations on earth.

 

 
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