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  1. #1
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    State of Failure: Georgia

    Russia knowingly and deliberately destabilizes Georgia by fueling ethnic warfare and supporting rebel forces.

    1801-1878: Sovereign Georgia was almost completely annexed to the Russian Empire.

    1918-1921: Independent for three years following the Russian revolution.

    1921: Georgia forcibly incorporated into the USSR until the Soviet Union dissolved in 1991. South Ossetia was an autonomous province of Georgia during the Soviet era.

    11.10.89: The South Ossetian regional council asked the Georgian Supreme Council to upgrade the region to an "autonomous republic".

    12.11.90: After South Ossetia attempted to proclaim the region a Soviet Democratic republic in the summer of 1990, the Georgian government abolished South Ossetia's autonomous status. Tensions turn violent and one year later 100,000 Ossetians were driven out.

    03.31.1991 Georgia became an independent, unified and indivisible state confirmed by Referendum held throughout the territory of the country, including the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic of Abkhazia and the Former Autonomous Region of South Ossetia. Recognized by the UN as a sovereign nation.

    1992-1993: Russian backed Abkhazians sweep Georgians from the region in an ethic cleansing.

    06.24.92: Sochi Agreement established a cease-fire between the Georgian and South Ossetian forces.

    09.03.92 The Moscow Agreement ensured territorial integrity of Georgia, provided for a ceasefire… and established a Monitoring and Inspection Commission

    1998: Again, Russian backed Abkhazians sweep Georgians from the region in an ethic cleansing.

    05.15.08 UN General Assembly requires Abkhazia to protect and restore property rights to Georgians displaced by ethnic cleansing.

    07.03.08 US and Polish diplomats reach a tentative agreement regarding U.S missile bases in Poland. US and Czech diplomats discuss US missiles in Czech republic.

    08.08.08 recognizing two separatist regions of Russia Russia’s President Dmitry Medvedev uses irredentism as a pretext for the South Ossetian invasion. UN Press Release “Russian recognition of a separatist regime was nothing more than full and unequivocal support of insurgents.”

    08.20.08 United States and Poland formally agree to deploy parts of the U.S. global missile shield in the East European country

    Now compare Russia’s position separatist position regarding Ossetia to Russia’s provincial position on Kosovo. Kosovo is 90% Albanian. Albanian-Kosovo wants independence from Serbia. Yet, Russia supports Serbia’s claim that Kosovo, a province of Serbia, has no right to independence.

  2. #2
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Source please, particularly for the ethnic cleansing claims.

    Russia is acting in it's own interests obviously, but that is something that every nation does. Look at the US's similair conflicting positions on the Kosovo issue.

    Stormer
    Politics and the fate of mankind are formed by men without ideals and without greatness. Those who have greatness within them do not go in for politics- Albert Camus

    I say violence is necessary, it is about as American as cherry pie- Rap Brown

  3. #3
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormer View Post
    Source please, particularly for the ethnic cleansing claims.

    Russia is acting in it's own interests obviously, but that is something that every nation does. Look at the US's similair conflicting positions on the Kosovo issue.

    Stormer
    I was hoping for an intelligent comment. I supposed that I should not be surprised that none was forthcoming.

    I'll get to Kosovo in time. As to Georgia, the information is ubiquitous and known by most people who keep up on international affairs. If you would like to be better informed you can read the UN, CIA, Embassy and various other government websites.

  4. #4
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Basic burden check.

    You've made the claim that Russia is destabilizing - that is, causing instability - in Georgia by 1) backing ethnic cleansing by Abkhazians, and 2) supporting rebel forces in South Ossetia.

    1) You have yet to demonstrate that ethnic cleansing destabilized the region. You have yet to demonstrate that this cleansing, if it did cause instability, was backed by Russia.

    2) You have yet to demonstrate that the Russian support of rebel forces was a destabilizing rather than stabilizing factor in the region.
    Last edited by Fangrim; September 22nd, 2008 at 04:34 AM.
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    --Richard Carnes

  5. #5
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by YahooYeager View Post
    I was hoping for an intelligent comment. I supposed that I should not be surprised that none was forthcoming.

    I'll get to Kosovo in time. As to Georgia, the information is ubiquitous and known by most people who keep up on international affairs. If you would like to be better informed you can read the UN, CIA, Embassy and various other government websites.
    I will refrain from negging you for the ad-hom, but will ask you again to suport the claims you have made.

    As Fangrim has already stated, the burden of proof is on you to back up your claims. Once you have done that then perhaps an intelligent debate can start.

    FYI, there has already been some debate on this topic in this thread:

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=15536

    Stormer
    Politics and the fate of mankind are formed by men without ideals and without greatness. Those who have greatness within them do not go in for politics- Albert Camus

    I say violence is necessary, it is about as American as cherry pie- Rap Brown

  6. #6
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by Stormer View Post
    I will refrain from negging you for the ad-hom, but will ask you again to suport the claims you have made.

    As Fangrim has already stated, the burden of proof is on you to back up your claims. Once you have done that then perhaps an intelligent debate can start.

    FYI, there has already been some debate on this topic in this thread:

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...ad.php?t=15536

    Stormer
    Negging for ad hom? Surely, you realize there is a difference between believing that members of a forum, or an individual, can make and intelligent comment, and recognizing the improbability of a forthcoming intelligent discussion.

    I will not scurry around to post my cites as they are common knowledge. If you are unaware then educate yourself. If you choose to have me banned or to give me a negative reputation then do it. If you are only going to continue to be negative, demanding and contribute nothing then spend your time in the other thread.

    The purpose of this thread is to consider the parallel between Serbian-Kosovo and Georgian-Ossetia, and not just Ossetia. The claim that Russia is fostering the failure of Georgia is an exploration and comparison of recent and ongoing international politics. Therefore, a predictive assertion based on ongoing international politics, diplomacy, and military acts cannot be proven without a time machine.

  7. #7
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by YahooYeager View Post
    The purpose of this thread is to consider the parallel between Serbian-Kosovo and Georgian-Ossetia, and not just Ossetia.
    That was hardly apparent. You gave us 18 lines of text that focused exclusively on Georgia, and to all appearances tossed in the last two lines to bring in all of the baggage entailed by the contradictory policy in Kosovo so as to strengthen your claim that Russia is a "bad guy" in Georgia.

    If your actual claim was that Russia is contradictory in its foreign policy, you did a poor job of centering your OP around it.
    Further, if that actually is your claim, you can't do it by telling us you'll discuss Kosovo later. You'll "get to Kosovo in time"? Why should we even entertain a rebuttal of your OP if you don't even bother to finish your argument? Your alleged claim necessitates a comparison between Russian policy in Kosovo and policy in Georgia; half of a comparison is useless.

    Your problem in attitude has already been detailed.
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    Libertarianism has also been defined with some plausibility as the form taken by liberalism as common sense asymptotically approaches zero.
    --Richard Carnes

  8. #8
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by YY
    I will not scurry around to post my cites as they are common knowledge. If you are unaware then educate yourself. If you choose to have me banned or to give me a negative reputation then do it. If you are only going to continue to be negative, demanding and contribute nothing then spend your time in the other thread.
    Your "claims" are far from "common knowlege", what is your relutance with posting your sources? Do you already know yourself that they are biased or unsupported? It isn't realy that big of an ask, especially considering you are the one making the argument and hence hold the burden of proof.

    Here are the claims I specifically want you to support:

    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    03.31.1991 Georgia became an independent, unified and indivisible state confirmed by Referendum held throughout the territory of the country, including the Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic of Abkhazia and the Former Autonomous Region of South Ossetia. Recognized by the UN as a sovereign nation.
    Quote Originally Posted by OP
    1992-1993: Russian backed Abkhazians sweep Georgians from the region in an ethic cleansing
    1998: Again, Russian backed Abkhazians sweep Georgians from the region in an ethic cleansing.
    05.15.08 UN General Assembly requires Abkhazia to protect and restore property rights to Georgians displaced by ethnic cleansing
    Support these claims please.


    Stormer
    Politics and the fate of mankind are formed by men without ideals and without greatness. Those who have greatness within them do not go in for politics- Albert Camus

    I say violence is necessary, it is about as American as cherry pie- Rap Brown

  9. #9
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Maybe my common knowledge is flawed, but hasn't Ossetia been separate in all but statehood since the 90s? And didn't Georgia launch an all out offensive against them (to include the Russians stationed there)? Kind of hard to call Russia the bad guys when they are retaliating. I still wonder what made Georgia attack in the first place. Wonder if it had anything to do with NATO promises?
    For that is what philosophy has promised me: she will make me god's equal. -Seneca

  10. #10
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by invictus33 View Post
    Maybe my common knowledge is flawed, but hasn't Ossetia been separate in all but statehood since the 90s?
    Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili called Russia's move "classic invasion and annexation".

    South Ossetia is ethnically (Iranian, but Christan) separate. We agree South Ossetia is not a separate state. However, Russia incites South Ossetian separatists too break away. Russia is destabilizing the region...
    Last edited by Dionysus; October 4th, 2008 at 12:07 PM.

  11. #11
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    Re: State of Failure: Georgia

    Quote Originally Posted by YahooYeager View Post
    Georgia's President Mikhail Saakashvili called Russia's move "classic invasion and annexation".
    But he would say that wouldn't he?

    What he fails to stress is that it was the GEORGIAN military, at his command that launched an all out military offensive on the seperast region.

    Quote Originally Posted by YahooYeager View Post
    South Ossetia is ethnically (Iranian, but Christan) separate. We agree South Ossetia is not a separate state. However, Russia incites South Ossetian separatists too break away. Russia is destabilizing the region...
    That was not what invictus was referring to, he was referring to the fact that the state has been de facto independant since Georgia recieved it's own independence in the early '90s and even somewhat before that in the Soviet Union as an autonomous oblast.

    Georgia launches unprecedented all out offensive in Georgia, thus Georgia is destabalising the region.

    Stormer
    Politics and the fate of mankind are formed by men without ideals and without greatness. Those who have greatness within them do not go in for politics- Albert Camus

    I say violence is necessary, it is about as American as cherry pie- Rap Brown

 

 

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