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  1. #1
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    Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Is everyone so smitten with their political ideologies that their eyes, minds and hearts are just utterly closed to anything approaching rationality and objectivity?

    Why is it you have to practically whip a conservative within an inch of their life to admit that Clinton had good economic policies and his term was unique in both seeing excellent sustained growth and control over budget spending, when no other president in memory has achieved that?

    Is it so painful for a liberal to admit that McCain’s sage advice that we needed more troops in Iraq to control the violence there was proved to be absolutely true by the well run “surge”?

    Does everyone have to pick at the margins and equivocate or change the subject in the face of fairly plain data and experience just because they generally have a particular political viewpoint?

    Why can’t we occasionally admin we are wrong, or give credit where credit is due? So few are willing to admin someone has made a good argument or to apologize for making a poor one. I appreciate getting into the finer points and arguing the margins of a topic but even on this fine board I see a lot of folks unwilling to at all consider the other side of the argument or concede well made points on occasion.

    Granted it is far far worse elsewhere. I watch the CNN political tracker website and occasionally read the blog talk backs. I’ve never seen a greater pile of steaming partisan parroting and sloganeering anywhere. It makes me sad for American politics.

    Where are the moderates? Why can’t anyone get excited about being reasonable and open minded or seeking a good compromise position on deeply divisive issues?

    All rhetorical questions I suppose but really, I do want to know if some of the famous rightists and leftists here on the board consider themselves capable of praising someone on the other side of the political spectrum for their intelligence and insight. Or do you just assume everyone that doesn’t think like you is stupid?

  2. #2
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    May be off topic.

    But may be exactly on.

    What, exactly, were Clinton's good economic policies? He raised taxes, and admitted that he "probably raised them too much". Other than that, what did he do?

    But more to the point...

    It's not a case of picking at the margins and equivocation. It's a fundamental difference in perspective.

  3. #3
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Why is it you have to practically whip a conservative within an inch of their life to admit that Clinton had good economic policies and his term was unique in both seeing excellent sustained growth and control over budget spending, when no other president in memory has achieved that?
    Too many times Presidents are given credit and blame where it isn't deserved. Clinton wasn't bad in terms of fiscal responsibility, but President's don't raise or lower taxes or spend more or less of the government's revenue. Congress does.

    BTW, remember a little thing called the "Republican Revolution"? Republicans held the House and Senate from 1994-2000.

  4. #4
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    So generaly your awnsers are no, we can't actualy admit how good the economy and budgeting was under the Clinton administration? While congress does do much of the spending the president sets the initial budget and wields budget vetos. Presidents have a great deal of power over budget issues and economic initiatives.

    I do recall the Republican Revolution and they did a good job for a while. (see.. this is how you admit things that are true but not part of your political idiology)

    Polititions don't create fiscal policy just to amuse themselves, they do it for effect and it does have an effect. Clintons policies were very targeted and deliberate, raising taxes overall but cutting taxes on key buisness secters and on new buisness as well as for inovative technology industries that ended up being key players in the 90s boom times. You of course can't put it all at his feet but he certainly didn't screw things up and in the end he balanced the budget and saw nearly unprecidented growth. If he had been a republican I bet you'd have been hailing him an economic dynamo along wtih Reagan.

  5. #5
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    Why is it you have to practically whip a conservative within an inch of their life to admit that Clinton had good economic policies and his term was unique in both seeing excellent sustained growth and control over budget spending, when no other president in memory has achieved that?
    "Good economic policies"? You mean like repealing the Glass-Steagall Act, which led to the financial crises with Enron and Citigroup?

    And just look how well not adopting reforms for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac worked out! But, hey, at least home ownership went up, right?

    Not to mention presiding over the Community Reinvestment Act, which led to the subprime mortgage crisis. Which in turn led to the massive credit crunch we now find ourselves in.

    Now, I'm not saying he didn't do anything right--NAFTA, for instance, was a massively correct policy decision. But I think it's overly simplistic to say "Clinton had a budget surplus, so his economic policies must have been hunky-dory."
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

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  6. #6
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    It doesn't kill the admit the facts. It is irritating to revise one's beliefs on the basis of random new information someone wants you to accept.

    I subscribe to certain cultures of knowledge. When I read an article that I find understandable and within the reasonable bounds of plausibility, I don't find much qualms in assimilating that into my conception of "what is true." This comes from several of my inherent biases as to what is reasonable or plausible.
    If, however, what you tell me is inconsistent with that culture, I'm not going to "admit" that "fact." It isn't a fact to me: it's just a claim that I can disregard like any other.
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  7. #7
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    The answer to your question, unequivocally, as demonstrated above, is a resounding:

    NO

    And, as I have stated before, despite being vilified for it to no end: it will be the decline of your once great nation, and likely the world along with it.

    Reality has way of dealing justice no matter how right you think you are. There is what people want to believe about reality, and then there is actual reality. The truth will have its day, but the consequences to your children and your children’s children will be grave.

    One of the great strengths of humans is their ability to look truth in the face and ignore it. We like to call it a “no quit” attitude. Unfortunately it is looking like this once great survival mechanism will ultimately do us in. Like all species we will either adapt or perish. It’s looking like perish is the more likely of the two options.

    O well, the planet will adapt, maybe produce something a little more calm and rational than us. But heck, I'm just an optimist...
    HINT: This is a trick question

  8. #8
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    So generaly your awnsers are no, we can't actualy admit how good the economy and budgeting was under the Clinton administration? While congress does do much of the spending the president sets the initial budget and wields budget vetos. Presidents have a great deal of power over budget issues and economic initiatives.

    I do recall the Republican Revolution and they did a good job for a while. (see.. this is how you admit things that are true but not part of your political idiology)

    Polititions don't create fiscal policy just to amuse themselves, they do it for effect and it does have an effect. Clintons policies were very targeted and deliberate, raising taxes overall but cutting taxes on key buisness secters and on new buisness as well as for inovative technology industries that ended up being key players in the 90s boom times. You of course can't put it all at his feet but he certainly didn't screw things up and in the end he balanced the budget and saw nearly unprecidented growth. If he had been a republican I bet you'd have been hailing him an economic dynamo along wtih Reagan.
    My post wasn't to denigrate Clinton. He was an adequate, not great, President when it came to fiscal policy. There was financial prosperity during his administration. I'm just saying that the Congress played a major role in all of that too.

    But I can certainly dish out criticism to my side too. Bush has been worse than Clinton when it comes to fiscal policy - even if we don't count the war. And although I have some praise for the Republican controlled 1994 Congress, the ones in office now have for the most part sold out and abandoned anything resembling smart conservatism.

  9. #9
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69
    Bush has been worse than Clinton when it comes to fiscal policy
    I guess it would be off-topic, but I disagree vehemently with your claim.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

  10. #10
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69 View Post
    But I can certainly dish out criticism to my side too. Bush has been worse than Clinton when it comes to fiscal policy - even if we don't count the war. And although I have some praise for the Republican controlled 1994 Congress, the ones in office now have for the most part sold out and abandoned anything resembling smart conservatism.
    I'll offer half points for critiquing your own team. Anything good to say about a liberal polititian for a full score?

    But really you did give at least some ground which is in the spirit of my rant so I appreciate it.

    Do you ever look for "liberal" opinions you can agree with, do you recognize some of the underlying wisdom or thought behind the philosophy? I can certainly see a lot of reason and wisdom in both conservative and liberal positions.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    Now, I'm not saying he didn't do anything right--NAFTA, for instance, was a massively correct policy decision. But I think it's overly simplistic to say "Clinton had a budget surplus, so his economic policies must have been hunky-dory."
    Certainly in the spirit of the ideal, so Clive gets a star!

    And I agree its over simplified, but none the less his tenure was quite succesfull.

    And blaming the current crisis on his home ownership policy is silly. The NOMO loan buisness sprang up only in the last 5 years or so, and the restrictions on leverage were also eased up by Bush and co. All the real killer problems of the housing crisis were solidly in Bush land by my accounting.
    Last edited by Sigfried; September 23rd, 2008 at 11:20 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  11. #11
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    Do you ever look for "liberal" opinions you can agree with, do you recognize some of the underlying wisdom or thought behind the philosophy? I can certainly see a lot of reason and wisdom in both conservative and liberal positions.
    Hmm, well, I'm with some liberals (as well as many libertarians) when it comes to drug legalization. It's my body and no one has the right to tell me what I can put in it. I think it's pure hypocrisy to have alcohol legal and pot (or any other drug) illegal.

    I'm also for gay marriage and/or civil unions. Why shouldn't they have the right to lose half their money and possessions every five years like I do?

    One of the things I like about liberalism in general is the idealism and the emphasis on fairness. Republicans have really lost their zeal and idealism since the Reagan years. When Reagan was in his prime, conservatives were working toward an idealistic goal, what Reagan called the "shining city on a hill". Idealism is all but completely gone from conservatism, and it's waning even in the liberal world. Now both parties just work to thwart the other side.

    This country needs another Reagan. And I don't necessarily mean in terms of ideology. I mean in terms of giving each side a reason not to hate each other and feel that "it's morning in America again" idealism. Sure there were plenty of people at odds with Reagan politically, but they still liked and respected him. Because of this, politicians during the Reagan era were much more likely to act in a bipartisan manner.

    Sadly neither candidate shows any sign of making that happen.

  12. #12
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Is everyone so smitten with their political ideologies that their eyes, minds and hearts are just utterly closed to anything approaching rationality and objectivity?

    Why is it you have to practically whip a conservative within an inch of their life to admit that Clinton had good economic policies and his term was unique in both seeing excellent sustained growth and control over budget spending, when no other president in memory has achieved that?

    Is it so painful for a liberal to admit that McCain’s sage advice that we needed more troops in Iraq to control the violence there was proved to be absolutely true by the well run “surge”?

    Does everyone have to pick at the margins and equivocate or change the subject in the face of fairly plain data and experience just because they generally have a particular political viewpoint?

    Why can’t we occasionally admin we are wrong, or give credit where credit is due? So few are willing to admin someone has made a good argument or to apologize for making a poor one. I appreciate getting into the finer points and arguing the margins of a topic but even on this fine board I see a lot of folks unwilling to at all consider the other side of the argument or concede well made points on occasion.

    Granted it is far far worse elsewhere. I watch the CNN political tracker website and occasionally read the blog talk backs. I’ve never seen a greater pile of steaming partisan parroting and sloganeering anywhere. It makes me sad for American politics.

    Where are the moderates? Why can’t anyone get excited about being reasonable and open minded or seeking a good compromise position on deeply divisive issues?

    All rhetorical questions I suppose but really, I do want to know if some of the famous rightists and leftists here on the board consider themselves capable of praising someone on the other side of the political spectrum for their intelligence and insight. Or do you just assume everyone that doesn’t think like you is stupid?
    Its not just political,
    for example, say you go to good times every once a month and you here from a stranger mcdonalds is better
    but all your friends say good times is better,what are you going to chose?
    [no advertisement intended]

  13. #13
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by cds69 View Post
    Hmm, well, I'm with some liberals (as well as many libertarians) when it comes to drug legalization. It's my body and no one has the right to tell me what I can put in it. I think it's pure hypocrisy to have alcohol legal and pot (or any other drug) illegal.

    I'm also for gay marriage and/or civil unions. Why shouldn't they have the right to lose half their money and possessions every five years like I do?
    Gold stars for the liberal support. Or libertarian at any rate. Thanks

    I really didn't like Regan back in the day but I was young and debating latin american politics where he had some of his less than great moments supporting rather brutal gurrila warfare.

    But looking back I agree his attitude and leadership were quite inspired. Personaly that's what I see in Obama as well. I find him to have a great deal of optimism and a call to courage.

    I think perhaps in both our cases we let policy disagreements hide the nature of the persons overall inspiration.

  14. #14
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    Re: Does it just kill people to admit the facts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried
    And blaming the current crisis on his home ownership policy is silly. The NOMO loan buisness sprang up only in the last 5 years or so, and the restrictions on leverage were also eased up by Bush and co. All the real killer problems of the housing crisis were solidly in Bush land by my accounting.
    The problem is that they started trading securities on those loans--securities which were given a AAA rating. The loans collapsed, so the securities collapsed. Are you actually familiar with the facts on this?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
    **** you, I won't do what you tell me

    HOLY CRAP MY BLOG IS AWESOME

 

 

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