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  1. #1
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    What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Now I know Bush isn't going to leave before we have everything the way it needs to be over there. Kerry, I'm not so sure. He says he'll stick with it, but he seems like the type of guy who crumbles to public opinion, whether it's against his judgment or not. Regardless, though, what if, under either president, we left Iraq before we get elections going, before we get a permanent government running, before we have the infrastructure rebuilt, before we've rebuilt their army and police forces? What will be the effects in Iraq, the Middle East and the whole world if the coalition leaves before it should?

  2. #2
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    there would probably be a civil war between the two sects of Islam, but what do think is going to happen when a Shiite or a Sunni is elected democratically, I doubt the other side is just going to accept it.

    I expect a theocracy to emerge eventually, us staying may prolong the time until that happens, but we can't stay there forever.

  3. #3
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Check this thread out. I asked somewhat the same question, if in a different manner...

    http://www.onlinedebate.net/forums/s...9393#post49393
    We took risks. We knew we took them. Things have come out against us. We have no cause for complaint. Scott, found in his diary after the party froze in Antarctica

  4. #4
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Bush won't leave. Will Bush be able to "finish the job?" or will he simply not leave?
    Its turtles, all the way down.

  5. #5
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    I for one am leaning more towards "simply not leave". In order to deem the job finished, one must first know what the job really was.
    Judge of a man by his questions rather than by his answers.--Voltaire

  6. #6
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    'The best laid plans of mice and men oft gang a'glay', a few words of wisdom and caution from Rabbie Burns, Mr. Bush jr. sir.

    And do not forget all the variations on the theme of, 'Hell is full of good intentions and desires' - Saint Bernard of Chairvaux (1091-1153).

    There is also that well cliched acronym ascribed to the US Navy - SNAFU
    Last edited by FruitandNut; October 3rd, 2004 at 03:35 AM.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  7. #7
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by mrs_innocent
    I for one am leaning more towards "simply not leave". In order to deem the job finished, one must first know what the job really was.
    We do know what the job is. To remove Saddam (accomplished), and help establish a democracy (being accomplished). In fact, voting in Afghanistan will take place this month, and voter registration in Iraq is starting this month. It will be a hard and violent road to freedom, but it is possible. I recently read an editorial about how everyone thought the prospects for democracy in El Salvador in the early 1980s were so hopeless. And it seemed so at first, but people ducked gunfire and bombs to go to the polls, and by the early 1990s, the new government was successful, and the surrounding communist regimes in that continent were collapsing and reforming towards democracy. I sincerely believe that Arab society is not inherently different in its capacity for rule by the people. Once Afghanistan and Iraq are secure in their new foundations, I believe that such countries as Iran, Syria and Jordan will experience the domino effect as its people use the momentum for reform. I am not saying the US should remain in Iraq for a decade. I am saying that our presence there for several more years will likely be necessary, but it will be very worth it in the long run. Americans are amazingly shortsighted sometimes, wanting instant gratification. The fact is that Iraq has been a dictatorship for around half a century, and the first elections will be disorganized and violent. It will no longer be a choice of Saddam or Saddam. I have been called a bigot before for my views on homophilia being a mental disorder, and for slavery of black Africans being ultimately a good thing for black Americans today. What I find to be true bigotry, though, is when liberals tell me that Islam or even the Arab race is incompatible with the universal philosophy of each person having a say in how their government is run and who represents them. As I have learned from Spart, we cannot always confront the biggest threats first. We must handle the threats we can when we can, before they become bigger threats. We should have taken pre-emptive action in N. Korea. Now it is a nuclear power with a gigantic army, led by an unstable dictator with no affection for America and a desire for power. Liberals love rhetorically asking why we don't invade much larger threats like N. Korea, but the fact is, they're beyond our current military capacity considering our other engagements, and negotiations must succeed, or we're in trouble. So far, all anyone has answered with is what they think the effects in Iraq will be if we leave before we should. That was not my whole question. I asked about the effects on the rest of the Middle East, and the world, if after invading a country, deposing its leader, and then not sufficiently rebuilding it and establishing a successful democratic government, we simply abandon it. To me it's obvious to any thinking person that this would be simply disastrous, not only for our reputation but for the security and future stability of America and the world.

  8. #8
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    To destroy an enemy by showing examples of superiority (the conceptual democracy vs. tyranny) requires perfect accordance with what you say you're doing. We cannot inspire people to love and respect us if they don't understand us, don't appreciate us, and are absolutely confused about what it is we're trying to do (a whole lot of Americans are absolutely confused about what we're trying to do.)

    If they had said straight up: "To defeat terrorism, we must destroy the inspiration for terrorism. To do this we will attempt to improve the standard of living in the various terrorist-generating parts of the world. This will require a replacement of some governments and a large investment in reconstruction. There will be instability, but if we all work together, we can handle the responsibility. Remember, though, that above all else, we are trying to demonstrate that we are compassionate, helpful, and generous. We are not impressing our beliefs, but helping them retain theirs while improving their standard of living to prevent them from being spiteful at us. We must keep our promises and be very direct, reliable, and trustworthy."

    When was that told to us?

    If you count, "They have WMD." as the above statement, you have a long way to go insofar as learning political/military motivations.

    I would have supported the cause if they had told us what it was. But they didn't. I bet we would have a real coalition if that had been the purpose. But it wasn't.

    People don't learn. We've screwed up miserably and there is no way out in sight. Bush has failed to fix it. Fixing it would be a difficult task. It would require a serious change in operations.

    But Bush is "constant." As Kerry so simply put it, "But this issue of certainty. It's one thing to be certain, but you can be certain and be wrong. "

    Which Bush is. We don't need to rush out. But we need to shape up before we can finish.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

  9. #9
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    We do know what the job is. To remove Saddam (accomplished
    ),

    That's right. After all, he was responsible for 9/11 and that's what we wanted justice for.

    and help establish a democracy (being accomplished).
    Ya gotta love our government. Even with more than 51% of the people looking to have an Islamic state, we keep telling them they want democracy. Please.

    In fact, voting in Afghanistan will take place this month,
    After months and months of delays and without the entire nation voting. Much of Afganistan is still lawless.

    and voter registration in Iraq is starting this month.
    But only in the areas we control. Chenney himself has hinted at the ridiculous notion of an election that doesn't fully encompass all of Iraq.

    It will be a hard and violent road to freedom, but it is possible.
    If by "possible" you mean at the expense of the U.S. economy and with another draft, then yes. It's "possible".


    I recently read an editorial about how everyone thought the prospects for democracy in El Salvador in the early 1980s were so hopeless. And it seemed so at first, but people ducked gunfire and bombs to go to the polls, and by the early 1990s, the new government was successful, and the surrounding communist regimes in that continent were collapsing and reforming towards democracy. I sincerely believe that Arab society is not inherently different in its capacity for rule by the people.
    It is highly different. Communist areas were mainly atheist. Arab nations have Islam to deal with which is not just a religion but also a governing body. You're comparing apples and oranges, Kevin.

    Once Afghanistan and Iraq are secure in their new foundations, I believe that such countries as Iran, Syria and Jordan will experience the domino effect as its people use the momentum for reform.
    Do you have any evidence to back this up other than, "I really want it to happen! "

    Please.

    Hundreds of years of tradition and ingrained methodology is going to evaporate in light of an illegal invasion into one country and two botched occupations. I can't tell if you're being overly-optimistic or simply naive.

    I am not saying the US should remain in Iraq for a decade. I am saying that our presence there for several more years will likely be necessary, but it will be very worth it in the long run.
    Yes, it will... unless you're someone who DOESN'T have stock in oil. Then all it means is someone you know getting killed under the hot sun or a higher price for gasoline.

    Americans are amazingly shortsighted sometimes, wanting instant gratification. The fact is that Iraq has been a dictatorship for around half a century, and the first elections will be disorganized and violent.
    The pot calling the kettle black. Bush marches off to war with no plan for peace and you have the audacity to utter the word shortsighted?

    Please.

    It will no longer be a choice of Saddam or Saddam.
    Yes, now it looks something like this:

    1) American Pawn
    2) American Pawn
    3) American Pawn
    4) Islamic whack-job

    Such an improvement...

    I have been called a bigot before for my views on homophilia being a mental disorder, and for slavery of black Africans being ultimately a good thing for black Americans today.
    I never heard that second part. My sister is adopted and is genetically black. Expect some negative rep points very soon.

    What I find to be true bigotry, though, is when liberals tell me that Islam or even the Arab race is incompatible with the universal philosophy of each person having a say in how their government is run and who represents them.
    This is a lot like the rhetoric from Vietnam. "Inside every communist Vietnamese is a freedom loving capitalist trying to get out."

    Accept that Islam is the religion of the region.

    Accept that Islam is also a method of government.

    Accept that the Islamic people of Iraq want to rule themselves in a manner consistant with their religious practices. That should come as no mystery to you, Captain Theist.

    As I have learned from Spart,
    Hahahahhahaaaahhahahahahhahahahahahaa

    Ah... that's internet gold right there.

    we cannot always confront the biggest threats first. We must handle the threats we can when we can, before they become bigger threats. We should have taken pre-emptive action in N. Korea. Now it is a nuclear power with a gigantic army, led by an unstable dictator with no affection for America and a desire for power. Liberals love rhetorically asking why we don't invade much larger threats like N. Korea, but the fact is, they're beyond our current military capacity considering our other engagements, and negotiations must succeed, or we're in trouble.
    Translation: "The Bush administration doesn't have the guts or the brains to deal with the real threats so we'll engage in a few constly diversions."

    So far, all anyone has answered with is what they think the effects in Iraq will be if we leave before we should. That was not my whole question. I asked about the effects on the rest of the Middle East, and the world, if after invading a country, deposing its leader, and then not sufficiently rebuilding it and establishing a successful democratic government, we simply abandon it. To me it's obvious to any thinking person that this would be simply disastrous, not only for our reputation but for the security and future stability of America and the world.
    What happened to the conservative cowboy-ish go-it-alone while flipping the bird to the U.N. mentality?

    Hoss, we told the United Nations to go CENSORED itself, ignored all our allies we couldn't bribe, and invaded a soverign nation on false pretenses. It's a little late to get all concerned over what others think of our actions.

  10. #10
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Zhavic: To say that Bush jr. was responsible for 9-11 is making him the focus of all the wrong and muddled thinking in the culture, religion and politics of all the relevant factions over all the hundreds of years of history that led to the atrocity is to overblow him. Was he really that important? His muddled thinking is little more muddled than the next guy's. It was the American 'voter/argueably' that put him in a position of power. It was the perceptions of the voters, including considerations of security that were in part expressed by experience and what they see and hear from the media, that sway perceptions. The media, in part ,mix agenda with real events. Some of those real events are triggered by others' agendas, misconceptions and paranoia. And so the virus known as 'human fallibility' spreads is way into all theatres of human endeavour and exploration - it is a virus that is potentially traceable back to the earliest of homo sapiens, to the time signified by the parable of 'Adam and Eve'.

    ps. In regard to Uncle Sadman( oops Freudian slip), Saddam, I think it is more a case of:-

    American - pawn.
    American - pain in the butt.

    It is a phenomenon not unenxperienced by other controlling powers throughout history - including the UK. There is a saying, 'Better the devil you know', but pragmatism tolerates their little peccadilos while they stay friendly to the controlling power, if they do not, with few exeptions, it is kickass time. There is a conspiracy theory which is not without some evidence that MOSAD may have known about it before hand or even engineered it from backstage, in oder to prevent Uncle Sam from feeling it can look too closely at Isreal's more questionable acts or unreasonable claims. Just exactly where does responsibility lie untimately is a problematic and wide ranging forensic task.
    Last edited by FruitandNut; October 4th, 2004 at 05:21 AM.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  11. #11
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?




    I didn't say Bush was the cause of all those problems. I said he had a responsibility to bring those responsible for 9/11 to justice. To date, Osams is free.

  12. #12
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric
    )I never heard that second part. My sister is adopted and is genetically black. Expect some negative rep points very soon.
    Negative rep. points for disagreeing with me? That's not really how the system is supposed to work, but I won't hold a grudge if you do. I ask you, would you rather your sister lived here or in Africa? With things like the genocide in Sudan going on, I thought that would be obvious. Let me refer you to my thread "Slavery reparations? Give me a break." I lay out my point in more detail. In case this needs to be made very clear: I am NOT a racist. I simply think it's obvious that black Africans being enslaved in the past was generally fortunate for black Americans today. This does not mean I advocate slavery itself, but that in this specific instance the end seems to positively outweigh the means. In other words, if I was black, I would be thankful, while still being somewhat bitter, that my ancestors were forcibly brought here. Africa is not a nice place to live. Generally much worse than any black American ghetto in terms of quality of life and life expectancy.
    Last edited by KevinBrowning; October 4th, 2004 at 06:02 AM. Reason: Too much empty space in quote.

  13. #13
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    There Is No Way That Us Leave Iraq Before Finishing A Job. And The Job Will Not Only Be Confined To Iraq. We Will See That The Job, That Is To Say The Policy Of Creating A Safer Environment For Us Citizens And Dominating The Oil Will Proceed In The Coming Years.
    What If The Evacuation Occurs?
    -iraq Will Not Obtain Democracy Unity On Its Own. There Are 3 Major Groups There, And All Want To Accumulate The Power In Favor Of Their Group. This Will Probably Will Lead To A Bloody War Among Those Groups. (on The Other Hand, I Should Mention That I Really Have Doubts That Us Could Help Them Achive Peace And Democracy There)

    -the Instability In Iraq Might Spread To Nearby Countries, At Least It Will Bring Discomfort. If There Is A War In A Place You Can Not Isolate Youself From The Disarray Happining There.

  14. #14
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by KevinBrowning
    Negative rep. points for disagreeing with me? That's not really how the system is supposed to work, but I won't hold a grudge if you do. I ask you, would you rather your sister lived here or in Africa? With things like the genocide in Sudan going on, I thought that would be obvious. Let me refer you to my thread "Slavery reparations? Give me a break." I lay out my point in more detail. In case this needs to be made very clear: I am NOT a racist. I simply think it's obvious that black Africans being enslaved in the past was generally fortunate for black Americans today. This does not mean I advocate slavery itself, but that in this specific instance the end seems to positively outweigh the means. In other words, if I was black, I would be thankful, while still being somewhat bitter, that my ancestors were forcibly brought here. Africa is not a nice place to live. Generally much worse than any black American ghetto in terms of quality of life and life expectancy.
    Not to take this thread completely off topic:

    you're assuming that Africa would turn out the same if slavery had or had not happend, which is somehting you really can't do. The slave trade decimated Africa's society. Without it, things would have been a lot different.

    A month or two ago I was watching that one show, with the guy who's like Oprah.. but a guy (he comes on either before or after Oprah)... anyways, it was a racism episode, and they had a guy on there saying exactly what you said.

    He then voiced his support for the Holocaust




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  15. #15
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    A month or two ago I was watching that one show, with the guy who's like Oprah.. but a guy (he comes on either before or after Oprah)... anyways, it was a racism episode, and they had a guy on there saying exactly what you said.

    He then voiced his support for the Holocaust
    Fallacy, and a rather blatant one, at that.



    Guilt by Association is a class of fallacies in which a proposition is considered invalid because of a circumstantial association with a disliked person, group, other entitity, or concept. Alternatively, a proposition considered to be negative is affirmed by such an association.
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  16. #16
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zhavric



    I didn't say Bush was the cause of all those problems. I said he had a responsibility to bring those responsible for 9/11 to justice. To date, Osams is free.
    I go with you on this one Zhav. (don't expire from the surprise). Bush jr. is only a small part of a great complexity of ingredients that make up Iraqi Pie. We would have to wade through about 1400 years of history to start to really understand how the ingredients interact. Even then it is difficult to get into the mindsets of people of different cultures and times - hard enough for many to do that with people of their own culture and time.

    What I do believe is that now we have gotten ourselves in another fine mess, a panic reaction leading to a precipitous evacuation of troops, would only make matters worse - both for them and ourselves.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  17. #17
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Scoot off to SE Asia and help the quake victims.

    "Sorry guys, them Muslims need us more than you do, if you wanna kill each other fine but these peeps need help. We're outta here!"

    Go where people would be grateful for the help or go where people are shooting you?

    Why is this a hard choice? Oh yeah, no lucrative contracts, oil, petro-dollar threat.. just people that actually need help.

    Instead you prefer to spend billions having your youngsters killed and a few million where aid is actually needed?


    Here's a point - if you had NOT of invaded Iraq, think of the manpower, equipment and money you would have had available for people who need help?


    P.
    "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
    head of MI6

    "The Emory University study proves beyond a doubt that politicians and their acolytes - are lying morons."

    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
    Justice Jackson Nov. 21, 1945, Nuremberg

  18. #18
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Pibs, my old fruit, you are taking a simple, biased and unfair approach. Try to look at the whole picture - while the West is far from perfect, it is also the case for the Islamic world. There are aspects of the way Islam and Islamic culture are practised that many Islamists are deeply unhappy and alarmed at. I empathise with much that you say if you would frame it more thoughtfully and fairly.

    ps. Quite a few Christian and Hindu communities were also hit by the tsunami.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

  19. #19
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    And Bhuddists too. I live in SE Asia, remember?

    Point 1: Peeps in quake region need help, lots of it.

    Point 2: You have no right to be in Iraq.

    Point 3: The people in Iraq are killing you.

    this is a tough choice?



    P.
    "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
    head of MI6

    "The Emory University study proves beyond a doubt that politicians and their acolytes - are lying morons."

    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
    Justice Jackson Nov. 21, 1945, Nuremberg

  20. #20
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    Re: What if we left Iraq before finishing the job?

    Point one - agreed. Point two - a bald statement that does need qualification and argument as it does not fairly paint the whole picture. Point three - see point two.
    "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." - Anais Nin.
    Emitte lucem et veritatem - Send out light and truth.
    'Fere libenter homines id quod volunt credunt' - Julius Caesar (rough translation, 'Men will think what they want to think')
    Kill my boss? Do I dare live out the American dream? - Homer Simpson.

 

 
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