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  1. #1
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    The Homosexual Theory

    Being new to debating, I hope I have placed this thread in the appropriate category.

    To begin,

    1. Homosexuality isn't a choice.
    2. You are a much better debater than I.
    3. I'll do my best to state clear ideas, not large, abstract post containing confusing, and multiple meaning words.


    I've heard much discussion about the following italics:

    Homosexuality could become a dominant gene, and perhaps even the future of human evolution.

    My first conclusion is that homosexuality is not a choice.
    (Evidence should be apparent.)


    1. Some penguins will mate with the same sex for life.
    2. Homosexuality is found in over 1500 different animal species (many of them not smart enough to decide sexual preference for themselves.)


    Evolution has played not part in homosexuality for a several of reasons.


    1. For homosexuality to "spread," it must first become a passable genetic trait. Currently, homosexuality isn't a verified genetic trait. Until there is a scientific cause of homosexuality, we cannot predict its future play on the human race.

    2. Because of modern human technology, humans could continue to flourish even if no reproductive sex took place. "Test Tube Babies" would be a way of life.

    Without this technology though, homosexuality would never become dominate in nature. Homosexual species without the mental capability to consider reproducing with the opposite sex for the sake of their species would fade out of existence.

    This fact makes a homosexual human evolution very slim. Evolution would effectively cease to exist, and selective breeding would be in affect human race.


    Homosexuality is not a trait controlled by evolution.

    1. If homosexuality were controlled by evolution, then 1500 animals would not exhibit the trait. An animal with very little intelligence does what its body tells it to do. If it has urges to mate with the same sex, then it will, and will not produce any offspring, therefore eliminating the trait.

    2. Homosexuals who choose to produce offspring do not have more homosexual children than people who are not homosexual. This means that there is no genetic code being passed on. Without genetic traits, evolution does not take place.


    Homosexuality is a "birth defect."
    I hate using "birth defect," but honestly, that is all I can describe it as.

    From what I see, homosexuality is an error in genetic transferring.

    Down Syndrome: 21 chromosomes
    Excessive anger and aggression: Extra y-chromosome


    I do not know what the defect is, but from what I see it is the most plausible explanation.


    Nit-pick this post please.
    I am a newbie, and my ideas are not logical or reasonable!

  2. #2
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by HotPancakes View Post
    1. Homosexuality isn't a choice.
    I agree




    Evolution has played not part in homosexuality for a several of reasons.


    1. For homosexuality to "spread," it must first become a passable genetic trait. Currently, homosexuality isn't a verified genetic trait. Until there is a scientific cause of homosexuality, we cannot predict its future play on the human race.
    If genetics and such has not played a part in homosexuality then how do you get that it is a choice? Do you believe someone is born homosexual or choices to be homosexual?

    Homosexuality is a "birth defect."
    I hate using "birth defect," but honestly, that is all I can describe it as.

    From what I see, homosexuality is an error in genetic transferring.

    Down Syndrome: 21 chromosomes
    Excessive anger and aggression: Extra y-chromosome


    I do not know what the defect is, but from what I see it is the most plausible explanation.
    RE-WORDED for niceness : What brought you to this explanation? Any support behind this explanation?
    Geez better???
    Last edited by Just Me; December 3rd, 2008 at 05:23 AM.
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  3. #3
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by HotPancakes View Post
    Homosexuality is a "birth defect."
    I hate using "birth defect," but honestly, that is all I can describe it as.

    From what I see, homosexuality is an error in genetic transferring.

    Down Syndrome: 21 chromosomes
    Excessive anger and aggression: Extra y-chromosome


    I do not know what the defect is, but from what I see it is the most plausible explanation.


    Nit-pick this post please.
    I am a newbie, and my ideas are not logical or reasonable!
    For you to claim that homosexuality is and error or a defect, you would first have to prove that homosexuality is detrimental to the survival of the species, given that homosexuality could be a reproductive "safety valve" against overpopulation (and thus resource decimation) due to an uncontrolled (considering we are at the top of the food chain) reproduction of the species, homosexuality might be just as beneficial and evolutionary sound for the species' survival as heterosexuality is, therefore considering it an error/defective trait is just wrong.
    Last edited by ians25; December 3rd, 2008 at 07:13 AM.

  4. #4
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    We are still understanding the way our genetics work and its more complicated than simply counting our DNA pairs. Identical twins can end up with different non pathogen caused diseases due to epigenetic differences.

    Evolution can only act on traits that can be reproduced, but the chain of cause and effect between genes and behaviors is something we don't really understand yet so its very much an open question.

    Sexuality is clearly pretty complicated and while its normally black and white for most of us, there are certainly those for whom it is pretty gray and the sex traits are somewhat cross wired.

    I'd say homosexuality is defective in the sense that if it were the dominant state it would inhibit survival, but as a minority trait it doesn't threaten the species.

    As wondrous and amazing as living things are, they are far from "perfect". Diversity is a key strategy of life and diversity requires variation which leads to less than optimal outcomes in many cases. Variations inhibiting survival are weeded out. Variations that ensure dominance tend to propagate. Variations that are both good and bad but not extreme enough to ensure death or dominance just mill around the genetic pool waiting for an environment that favors or disfavors them more strongly.

  5. #5
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    1. Homosexuality isn't a choice.

    let me ask you this:1.how isnt it a choice?
    2.using the info we have so far no one has found a gene for whether your gay or not, but in your opinion do you truly think there is?

  6. #6
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by ians25 View Post
    For you to claim that homosexuality is and error or a defect, you would first have to prove that homosexuality is detrimental to the survival of the species, given that homosexuality could be a reproductive "safety valve" against overpopulation (and thus resource decimation) due to an uncontrolled (considering we are at the top of the food chain) reproduction of the species, homosexuality might be just as beneficial and evolutionary sound for the species' survival as heterosexuality is, therefore considering it an error/defective trait is just wrong.
    a gene mutation that benefits survival will become more frequent in the population. but homosexuality cant be passed down. if homosexuality was beneficial, how would it spread? if it could, then many species would have become homosexual by now. but it cant. that means each individual case of homosexuality is indeed individual. that means

    A)its a choice
    B)Mutation or defect(for a lack of a better term)

    evolution cant play a hand if the gene isnt passed down.
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  7. #7
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dbogjohnson View Post
    let me ask you this:1.how isnt it a choice?
    2.using the info we have so far no one has found a gene for whether your gay or not, but in your opinion do you truly think there is?
    Its simple reasoning and it starts with you.
    1. Did you choose to be heterosexual? (Generally the answer is no, you have naturally developed a desire for women.)
    2. Homosexuals almost always report the same feeling, that they are naturally attracted to people of the same sex.
    3. Since this seems to be the common nature of sexual feeling it is reasonable to assume that there must be a genetic cause for sexual desire.

    I could force myself to have sex with a man and that would be a choice, but the desire not to do so was not a choice I made, it is simply the way I'm wired. I might if I tried hard enough, learn to enjoy or appreciate it, but that would be the choice and not my nature.

  8. #8
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackturtle View Post
    but homosexuality cant be passed down
    If it couldn't be passed down the first homosexual in human history would also had been the last one. If in turn is a genetic mutation that is passed on from heterosexuals, that says nothing about it being beneficial or detrimental to the survival of the species, it is just a mutation, as green eyes vs brown eyes, blonde vs brown hair, etc. So Mutation yes, defect no.

  9. #9
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Its simple reasoning and it starts with you.
    1. Did you choose to be heterosexual? (Generally the answer is no, you have naturally developed a desire for women.)
    2. Homosexuals almost always report the same feeling, that they are naturally attracted to people of the same sex.
    3. Since this seems to be the common nature of sexual feeling it is reasonable to assume that there must be a genetic cause for sexual desire.
    1.yes I thought it was the right choice, I really did think about it, bur I know most people say the genneral answer
    2.thats what confuses me, I think theres only a natural attraction after you chose what to be, thats how it was for me at least
    3.... like I said I can only guess on the genetics part, but I go with what black turtle said.
    my ending to the debate in this would be probably that the way youre childhood was

  10. #10
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Really dbog? It was actually the case for you that you pondered over whether you were sexually attracted to a man or a woman?

  11. #11
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dbogjohnson View Post
    1.yes I thought it was the right choice, I really did think about it, bur I know most people say the genneral answer
    2.thats what confuses me, I think theres only a natural attraction after you chose what to be, thats how it was for me at least
    3.... like I said I can only guess on the genetics part, but I go with what black turtle said.
    my ending to the debate in this would be probably that the way youre childhood was
    Dbog if you feel equally attracted to both men and women (which is what I would deduce if you just had to choose whom to stay with) then you are bisexual, a bisexual who chose to restrict his sexual activities to women, but still a bisexual.

  12. #12
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Really dbog? It was actually the case for you that you pondered over whether you were sexually attracted to a man or a woman?
    __________________
    yes, I thought about[but not that long]
    Dbog if you feel equally attracted to both men and women (which is what I would deduce if you just had to choose whom to stay with) then you are bisexual, a bisexual who chose to restrict his sexual activities to women, but still a bisexual.
    Im not By or gay Im straight![no offense to by or gay people, bue after I thought about it for about it I thought it was pretty sick]

  13. #13
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    That sounds remarkably manufactured dbog. Your qualifiers "but not that long" and "Im not By or gay Im straight" [sic] are very telling because:
    • The first one says that your ponderance and conclusions were almost immediate, which means you probably didn't really think about them at all, as you'd have us believe
    • You immediately wanted it crystal clear that there's no way you could possibly be anything but straight.


    I think you're making it all up, and I don't mean offense, but I think you're simply being obstinate in order to support your position.

  14. #14
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dbogjohnson View Post
    yes, I thought about[but not that long]

    Im not By or gay Im straight![no offense to by or gay people, bue after I thought about it for about it I thought it was pretty sick]
    The fact that you had to think about whether you were gay or straight kinda proves that you are bisexual. 'Real' straight people never have to choose because it's something you always know.
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  15. #15
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by dbogjohnson View Post
    1.yes I thought it was the right choice, I really did think about it, bur I know most people say the genneral answer
    2.thats what confuses me, I think theres only a natural attraction after you chose what to be, thats how it was for me at least
    3.... like I said I can only guess on the genetics part, but I go with what black turtle said.
    my ending to the debate in this would be probably that the way youre childhood was
    That makes you very unusual. Its quite possible you were born without a strong preference which would be a genetic abnormality in and of itself. At least I can understand how you would see the issue differently from most people. Generally I find that bisexuals tend to side with gay folks on political issues even though clearly for them sexual preference isn't especially hard wired.

    Most studies have shown that its a complicated mix of genetics and environment and that both can shape your sexual preferences. This doesn't surprise me based on my own experiences and sexual feelings. I can imagine what being homosexual is like, I can even imagine what being a woman feels like. Its not my natural state but its not beyond conception. So there must be a wide range of possibilities. We know that people taking sex hormones to change their physical sex and their sex drives change, but they rarely change from gay to straight even with the sex change. Clearly physical sexuality and sex preference are linked but not completely dependent.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by dbogjohnson View Post
    Im not By or gay Im straight![no offense to by or gay people, bue after I thought about it for about it I thought it was pretty sick]
    Hold up there. That doesn't square. Just imagining being gay doesn't mean you made a real choice in the matter. If the though of gay sex makes you feel sick, then you are straight and it wasn't a choice. No one is going to choose a sexuality that makes them feel ill or disgusted.
    Last edited by Sigfried; December 3rd, 2008 at 05:24 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  16. #16
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by ians25 View Post
    If it couldn't be passed down the first homosexual in human history would also had been the last one. If in turn is a genetic mutation that is passed on from heterosexuals, that says nothing about it being beneficial or detrimental to the survival of the species, it is just a mutation, as green eyes vs brown eyes, blonde vs brown hair, etc. So Mutation yes, defect no.
    as a mutation that cant be passed down, it is neither beneficial nor detrimental.
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  17. #17
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Just Me View Post
    If genetics and such has not played a part in homosexuality then how do you get that it is a choice? Do you believe someone is born homosexual or choices to be homosexual?
    There isn't any strict evidence revealing that homosexuality is caused by genetics, at least there isn't any now, there could be in the future. While homosexuality may not be caused by genetics, this doesn't mean it is a choice. The objective of this thread was to discuss the possible explanations for the trait.

    I cannot determine the exact cause of homosexuality. I can however eliminate the other causes.


    RE-WORDED for niceness : What brought you to this explanation? Any support behind this explanation?
    Geez better???
    I understand your frustration, it looks as if I just stated an idea without any sort of proof.

    Without available statistics on homosexuality I cannot prove much of anything. In order for me to come to a conclusion, I must start with possible explanations, and begin eliminating them.

    This reminds me much of a theist debate, you cannot disprove God until further technology is available. I cannot disprove genetics as a possible explanation for homosexuality until further technology.

    So for now, my thoughts are that homosexuality could be caused by birth abnormality.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    Quote Originally Posted by ians25 View Post
    If it couldn't be passed down the first homosexual in human history would also had been the last one. If in turn is a genetic mutation that is passed on from heterosexuals, that says nothing about it being beneficial or detrimental to the survival of the species, it is just a mutation, as green eyes vs brown eyes, blonde vs brown hair, etc. So Mutation yes, defect no.
    A couple with no recessive blue eyed genes will not give birth to a blue eyed child.

    You could however have generations of straight offspring (eliminating the chance of the "homosexual recessive gene" in the family), and have a homosexual child.

    In the near future we may find more on how or if homosexuality is passed on genetically. Until this, my above statement about generations of straight offspring cannot be proven, it is only a person word, but before homosexuality was even slightly accepted, who knows if the family actually had generations of straight offspring.

    The point is, we are just now realizing the true extent of homosexuality. By this I mean how many people are actually born with the abnormity.
    Last edited by HotPancakes; December 3rd, 2008 at 06:44 PM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  18. #18
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    by the way, if homosexuals can have children through scientific means, then it does not really protect against overpopulation.


    _________________________________ Post Merged _________________________________


    as a matter of fact, homosexuality may even be psychological. But i cant prove this or anything. has anyone ever seen a child attracted to another of the same sex?? if there is such a case, then you can say its genetic. but if it doesnt show right away, it might be a mix of both predispositions and environment.
    Last edited by Blackturtle; December 4th, 2008 at 04:23 AM. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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  19. #19
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackturtle View Post
    as a matter of fact, homosexuality may even be psychological. But i cant prove this or anything. has anyone ever seen a child attracted to another of the same sex?? if there is such a case, then you can say its genetic. but if it doesnt show right away, it might be a mix of both predispositions and environment.
    I had my nephew pegged as a homosexual when he was 3. He's 15 now and came out of the closet this last summer. He has a younger brother, and he's being brought up in the same house, with the same people, under the same conditions, eating the same foods, going to the same chuch, following the same rules, etc. But they're as different as night and day with their sexual orientations (at least, they will be. His brother is only 8, but he's a straight up boy. No question about it.)

  20. #20
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    Re: The Homosexual Theory

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    That sounds remarkably manufactured dbog. Your qualifiers "but not that long" and "Im not By or gay Im straight" [sic] are very telling because:
    The first one says that your ponderance and conclusions were almost immediate, which means you probably didn't really think about them at all, as you'd have us believe
    You immediately wanted it crystal clear that there's no way you could possibly be anything but straight.

    I think you're making it all up, and I don't mean offense, but I think you're simply being obstinate in order to support your position.
    Hold up there. That doesn't square. Just imagining being gay doesn't mean you made a real choice in the matter. If the though of gay sex makes you feel sick, then you are straight and it wasn't a choice. No one is going to choose a sexuality that makes them feel ill or disgusted.
    well i know i'll have to earn some trust back after this one, yes your right I was originally straight and only thought about being gay for about a minute or 2.


    Im not gay or by because It was like that from the beggenning, and I never really questioned it, because no one I knew as a freind till litterally 9th grade was by or gay,
    this points to either:its in my genetics, but as dio and black turtle,and hot pancakes just said, it cant be proven until further evidence

 

 
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