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  1. #41
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swindall View Post
    Atheist's aren't fueled by that.

    Am I trying to say atheist's are better in some way than people who believe in God?... Well No. There are a lot of good christian people out there. (As well as people in other religions)
    I believe what I mean is... There is more chance for a religious person to uphold such hateful feelings towards a type of people or race. Than there is for an atheist.
    Atheists, Just like Christians can be fueled by all sorts of things ..Heck, Atheists can even be fueled by their extreme hate of religion and those that are religious.
    There is more to a person's behaviors, morality and actions than their religion or lack of. Our upbringings, our education, our heritage, our nationality,our ignorances, our families and children, the politics we believe, the groups we join, the people we associate with...All these factors and experiences make up a persons belief structure. It is often these things that impact out moral codes and our actions.
    That is the reason not every Christian you meet is going to share every belief or the same exact moral code as another Christian. It's also why there are so many different religious sects..Just as, not all Atheists are the same in their beliefs or lack of beliefs. We all have different life experiences that make up the type of idiot we will eventually become.
    I promise you,...These people that "hate Fags" Are fueled by wayyyyyyyy more than religion.. Bad Breeding would be a better explanation. Anywho..I don't think religion is why they act the way they do, it is their justification to act the way they do.
    Last edited by tinkerbell; May 1st, 2009 at 01:30 PM.

  2. #42
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by spotty View Post
    Yes, but there's nothing about atheism in particular that recommends killing. It carries the same value as having a moustache!
    Religions proscribe certains kinds of "moral" (or immoral) behaviors, atheism does not make ANY recommendations on morals.
    Atheism doesn't tell you to comdemn OR accept gays.

    Yeah, sorry about the neg rep. I was in a pissy mood and immediately regretted it. I deserve one back if you like. It would make me feel better.
    Of course "Atheism" doesn't make any recommendations on morals. Atheism isn't a "belief", it's a lack of belief. But Atheists, at least all the ones I know, certainly don't beleive that there's no such thing as immorality. They believe in right and wrong, they simply don't include theology as part of what shapes their belief.

    The completely ambiguous question posed in the OP could be answered as such:

    If by "this" you mean can atheists be guilty of harboring and voicing a great deal of hate against others based on their own notions of what is right and wrong that are not held by the population at large and are not seemingly logical in any commonly acceptable sense of the word.... then the answer is a resounding YES!

    Spotty, you and I are most likely in agreement when it comes to the truth of religion. I happen to beleive they are all man-made. But while Christianity is one of the religions most abused and contorted by its own practitioners, it's also amazing! Forget what the truth is, and just think about the really major themes and principles of the New Testament. It's pretty simple and beautiful really. Imagine what kind of a world this would be if for the last two thousand years the masses would have been able to live up to the expressly pacifistic and loving nature of Jesus Christ. I may be an atheist (or at least an agnostic) but I'm not one that hates religion. To the contrary, I'm saddened that it's NOT true.

  3. #43
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Swindall View Post
    It is a church filled with basic imbeciles, who have some sort of warped view of the world, fueled by the bible.
    Thats right the Bible... Its incredible, that someone can take that book and literally become 'evil' through what is supposedly 'good'.
    I'm guessing that you haven't actually read the Bible, then...
    Ezekiel 4:12 (King James Version)
    And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight.

  4. #44
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Comtesse View Post
    Same as the Crusades argument - when people state that people like Mao was an atheist and killed many - they miss out that those people did not kill in the name of atheism.
    People have, indeed, killed in the name of atheism. This certainly doesn't say anything good about atheism considering its rather short history in politics. Karl Marx was an atheist and believed:

    Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.

    Not all Marxists took this seriously, but Lenin's Bolshevik's did, as atheism was required in order to join that party.

    In the first five years of the Soviet Union, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were executed.

    Considering the Bosheviks' love of atheism and propaganda campaign against organized religion, it is hard to believe their atheism played no part in their actions against the church, and that they did not, in fact, kill in the name of atheism.

    http://countrystudies.us/russia/38.htm

  5. #45
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    People kill in the name of christianity too.

    But saying christianity calls upon people to kill, or atheism calls upon people to kill, are BOTH incorrect.
    Atheism simply is not accepting the hypothesis of "God". Nothing more.

  6. #46
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerbell View Post
    Atheists, Just like Christians can be fueled by all sorts of things ..Heck, Atheists can even be fueled by their extreme hate of religion and those that are religious...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swindall View Post
    Yeah....

    I'll concede my point, it is very true insane people are insane, theres no two ways about it. They have simply used a religion to manifest this hate and spread it as Mican333 said.

    PerV was right, I was angry when I wrote this thread. You can all see why hopefully.
    I had already previously conceded this. Just thought I'd let you know.
    .::The Swindall::.

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  7. #47
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples View Post
    So the question is, would irreligious people ever be pushed to this kind of irrational hatred and hateful acts?

    Absolutely.

    Being an atheist doesn't mean you can't be a racist (unless "God" is now re-defined to mean "racism"). Being an atheist doesn't mean you can't be biased against homosexuals, heterosexuals, men, women, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Republicans, Democrats, etc., etc.
    The above is generally correct and I am amazed at how often I find myself correcting fellow atheists on this. The only mistake you make above is identifying us as "irreligious". There are many religious atheists in the world and the term does not mean "without religion". Einstein was a religious atheist(albeit by his own unique conception of what "religion" entails). Buddhists are mostly atheistic. Scientology is arguably an atheistic religion.

    Atheists aren't fueled by a book, it's true; they're fueled by whatever happens to fuel them. Whatever bias or irrational hatred they possess will not necessarily be tempered by lessons like "love thy neighbor as thyself" (unless the atheist happens to believe those lessons by sheer coincidence). Instead, the atheist is free to construct whatever moral and ethical code he or she likes, since there is no external absolute moral authority to which their own moral codes must (or even should) conform.
    I have a few issues with the above. First of all we do not pick and choose our morals arbitrarily and you are presenting a false dichotomy above. There are more options than "...tempered by lessons like "love thy neighbor as thyself" (learned from a religious book)" and "Happen to believe those lessons by coincidence.".
    Rationalists come by our morals in much the same way as we come by any other belief or lack thereof. No one chooses what they believe. You hear something, think on it(ideally) and your mind tells you "hey that makes sense." or "Hey that sounds like crap!" or something somewhere between.

    Are some Christians jerks/criminals/assholes/etc.? Yes. But if you're going to level this charge against the community at large, you should realize that the overwhelming majority of Christians don't do these things. Perhaps if one of Jesus's parables had taught that Christians should do these sorts of things, you'd have a point about the institution of the Christian church. Otherwise, you're just elaborating on the widely-known truth that Some People Are Just Assholes.
    Again, you are generally correct in the above but to say that the Bible or the character of Jesus himself even, do not teach some things that any modern, rational thinking person would find repulsive is to engage in selective reinterpretation of that book. I would concede that the book is quite ambiguous and as such you can justify any moral outlook. That is why progressive Liberal Christians and far-right Conservative Christians come to justify their contrary views by appealing to the same Bibles.

  8. #48
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by czahar View Post
    People have, indeed, killed in the name of atheism. This certainly doesn't say anything good about atheism considering its rather short history in politics. Karl Marx was an atheist and believed:

    Religion is the opium of the people: this saying of Marx is the cornerstone of the entire ideology of Marxism about religion. All modern religions and churches, all and of every kind of religious organizations are always considered by Marxism as the organs of bourgeois reaction, used for the protection of the exploitation and the stupefaction of the working class.

    Not all Marxists took this seriously, but Lenin's Bolshevik's did, as atheism was required in order to join that party.

    In the first five years of the Soviet Union, 28 bishops and 1,200 priests were executed.

    Considering the Bosheviks' love of atheism and propaganda campaign against organized religion, it is hard to believe their atheism played no part in their actions against the church, and that they did not, in fact, kill in the name of atheism.

    http://countrystudies.us/russia/38.htm

    But none of the atrocities of Stalin's regime were done in the name of atheism and if they had been then it would have simply been a stupid act done by someone who did not know what atheism was(and was not).

    And do you know how many NON-priests were killed? Stalin established a theocracy wherein HE was the godhead and the people worshiped him as a god. Treated as a god IS a god. Stalin did not care whether you were a churchgoer or a chess club member...if you had the capacity to organize(and therefore stir up rebellion) he wanted you taken out.

  9. #49
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    I love to chat about Mr.Phelps and his merry band of good ol' American bible believin' Christians.

    Those of you who purport to believe the bible as it reads: their story is a good cue for a gut-check and the realization that Phelps' quotes are not fake, the bible pushes this view, and your not taking it to the extremes he does signals the falsity of your beliefs.

    I had a nice email back and forth with Libby Davies, the local Member of Parliament for my region, regarding her energetic support for a motion in government to ban Fred Phelps and his immediate family from entry to Canada. He was due to arrive soon to picket the funeral of a man murdered violently on a cross-country bus. I argued he should be allowed in and shown the response he would garner from the local community, arrested for hate crimes or violence if necessary. She gave me a quick course in Canadian foreign policy and stated he should be disallowed for obviously planning to come here specifically to commit a hatecrime, or at the very least disturb the peace.

    ANYWAYS, if anyone's still reading, it is my opinion that this is a very important example of how religious tradition can twist and corrupt people's natural ability to establish moral "goodness".

    The debate in this thread has left out a very important fact when discussing the idea of a "moral code" or whatever you want to call that set of phenomena. This is that those are social constructs which require a collaboration of individuals operating as a society to exist. There is no such thing as a personal moral code, because it is based on, and indelibly affected by, those you apply it to, with regard to your own interpersonal actions or choices, and your judgment of others (everybody does it).

    When people live together and have language, they will establish a moral code. Some will adhere closer than others, sometimes moreso in some areas than others, but it will apply to the whole of the group that created it. From prehistory, religion has played the part of facilitator to those groups, catalyzing the development of moral codes that truly benefit humanity. With the advent of education and means of mass distribution of information, we have better ways of doing this and religion remains, also stripped of its few other purposes, kept alive by those who wield its power.

    While religion brought people together to talk about morals, bringing civilization forward in that respect, it is surpassed and overtaken by secular moral thinking for several important reasons:

    - religion is a personal phenomenon, it's motivations often said to come from a deep personal connection with god and understanding of his "word". This can be very different person to person, small group to small group, leading to a widely distributed motive to be moral, and a greater variety in what people believe is moral.

    - different religions differ in extreme ways over specific moral points. That means until, for each example, until one completely submits those points to another, they will kill and persecute each other over it, moral or not, small scale and large.

    - With civilization already in place, a population prepared to act rationally and be "moral", we don't need the scary mythologies to inspire that. This means we have the opportunity to also scratch the historic mixed bag of moral law systems, and develop one as a society that works. We can learn much from every religious moral system, from philosophy, from sociology, and from personal experience, to work out an ever evolving system that suits our society.


    In closing, I think that atheists are quite capable of being individually as errant as these people, but in the vast majority of cases would have a much harder time continuing to exist in society, let alone getting press and building your organization. Forced to draw their moral rules from the logical assumptions of themselves and their peers, they have no magic book to act rashly on based on their (in this case quite reasonable) personal understanding of the subject matter.

  10. #50
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    As I see it, religion is a very cumbustible topic. Religious people are far more likely to be bigoted and hateful than the secular, and they more likely to also be kind and loving. Religion is very bipolar. It has two faces. Secularism is not so extreme.
    Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear.

    -Thomas Jefferson, letter to Peter Carr, August 10, 1787

  11. #51
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Atheist could be guilty of this. These people's minds are clearly twisted, but they just use religion to justify their insanity. Just because one is an atheist does not excuse them of prejudice, racism, hate, etc. I think that the family holding up those signs would be the same way even if they did not use religion as an excuse to cover up their actions. If not religion, they would probably use science or personal "opinion" as excuses for their actions.
    "You can do anything you want, but be prepared to take responsibility for your actions."

  12. #52
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan4Reason View Post
    As I see it, religion is a very cumbustible topic. Religious people are far more likely to be bigoted and hateful than the secular, and they more likely to also be kind and loving. Religion is very bipolar. It has two faces. Secularism is not so extreme.
    I realize this thread has been idle for a while, but would you care to elaborate on this? I have yet to hear anything that makes me believe that religious people are more likely to be kind and loving.

  13. #53
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by cookies View Post
    I realize this thread has been idle for a while, but would you care to elaborate on this? I have yet to hear anything that makes me believe that religious people are more likely to be kind and loving.
    It seems by implication that you readily accept the premise that "Religious people are far more likely to be bigoted and hateful." Would you care to elaborate on that?
    The Signature Religion is the one true religion. I know this is true, because it says so right here in this signature.

  14. #54
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    I think this best sums up what my main point was, at the time.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    .::The Swindall::.

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  15. #55
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    i have seen so many vidieos on this "church" and everytime i think back im still stuck in disbelief. if there is a god (and there may be but i honestly couldent support the idea) im sure he wouldent want to send all of his beloved "chilldren" down to hell because of genetecs and mental impulses he desighned?. breaking away from that point has anyone see the vidieo on youtube of the group of bikers that appear at the "churches" rallys? i have to say there is nothing funnier than a bunch of evangelecal extremeists being chased away by big hairy bikers.

  16. #56
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sigfried View Post
    I wonder how those folks got like that. It may be they simply like the press and so they up their antics to stay in the spotlight. That at least is somewhat rational.

    I don't know if you can say an Atheist couldn't be like that. Nationalism requires no religion but folks do crazy things in the name of country sometimes. Same goes if someone wanted revenge for some wrong or they could simply be psychopathic.

    Religion is just an excuse for these folks, I imagine they could find a different excuse if they needed too. I will say that religion lends a kind of absolutism to the equation. Its harder for a secular cause to claim such moral authority and indisputable doctrine, but its likely still quite possible.
    Adding onto that, I would like to assert this:

    Such behavior is egocentric. Such emotional imbalance has nothing to do with religion. A religion cannot be blamed for the very same bigoted behavior it expressly prohibits. Therefore, an atheist can behave in the same manner.

    For example:

    In my efforts to spread the Gospel, I have been berated, condescended to, and have been spitefully combated both physically and mentally. Many an atheist has chosen the fervor of hate towards my ilk, over more wholesome, balanced sentiments.
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  17. #57
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    Re: Would Atheist's be guilty of this?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    Such behavior is egocentric. Such emotional imbalance has nothing to do with religion. A religion cannot be blamed for the very same bigoted behavior it expressly prohibits. Therefore, an atheist can behave in the same manner.
    Well, that's the problem with religion and religious books. They expressly prohibit such behaviour, but then on the flip side they can be conceived to promote such behaviour.

    "Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion."

    -- Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukecash12 View Post
    In my efforts to spread the Gospel, I have been berated, condescended to, and have been spitefully combated both physically and mentally. Many an atheist has chosen the fervor of hate towards my ilk, over more wholesome, balanced sentiments.
    Well, sometimes it's annoying being force fed religion. Lots of people don't want the Gospel "spread" to them, and would appreciate it if, you didn't try. (Not to say someone then physically assaulting you is in any way justified).

    Welcome to ODN.
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