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Thread: Minimum Wage

  1. #1
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    Question Minimum Wage

    Currently, both America and Canada (where I live) have minimum wages for workers. Are minimum wages good or bad for individuals within society, and society as a whole?

    From what I understand, minimum wage actually has a negative effect and causes unemployment. Furthermore, it seems to cause most harm to the most disadvantaged: those with few skills and abilities, and therefore the minimum wage legislation seems to hurt the very people it is trying to help. To me it seems logical that the only appropriate wage for someone is one which that person and their employer have agreed to voluntarily, without the need for intervention by the government.

    However, I would like to hear many different opinions in this thread. Please tell me what you think of the minimum wage (the concept, rather than the specific wage itself).
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  2. #2
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    If there was no minimum wage, it would be far too easy for big corporations to take advantage of the underprivaleged. Many of the poorer folk have trouble just getting a job, let alone having it pay well. If there was no minumum wage, the companies like McDonalds could pay low, low wages and still have people apply because the people really have no qualifications for jobs above entry level.

    Same with immigrants - they'll work for any amount because it's still infinatly better than the slums they are coming from. This then undercuts the people already living here, who are then out of a job because an immigrant will work for much lower wages. The wages keep dropping and dropping as other people are willing to work for less and less just for the opportunity to feed their families, until it spins out of control. When America was going through the Industrial Revolution there was no mininum wage, and so the new immigrants worked horrendous hours in unsanitary condtions for piss-poor wages.

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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex
    If there was no minimum wage, it would be far too easy for big corporations to take advantage of the underprivaleged.
    The way I see it, minimum wage limits economic opportunities for those same underprivilaged people. If their labour is not worth the minimum wage, they simply won't be hired. They won't be able to get a job which they would be able to get if there was no minimum wage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex
    Many of the poorer folk have trouble just getting a job, let alone having it pay well.
    If minimum wage increases unemployment amongst those who are already disadvantaged, then how is it helping this situation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex
    If there was no minumum wage, the companies like McDonalds could pay low, low wages and still have people apply because the people really have no qualifications for jobs above entry level.
    This isn't necessarily true. Workers could always apply for a job with a competitor who offers more money, or, if possible, start their own competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex
    Same with immigrants - they'll work for any amount because it's still infinatly better than the slums they are coming from. This then undercuts the people already living here, who are then out of a job because an immigrant will work for much lower wages.
    So minimum wage basically protects the local residents and denies immigrants the opportunity to work? I'm trying to figure out what exactly you mean. I would think that it would be better for an immigrant to be able to work for a low wage than to be out of a job entirely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex
    The wages keep dropping and dropping as other people are willing to work for less and less just for the opportunity to feed their families, until it spins out of control.
    Why would people want to work for a company offers ridiculously low wages? In an ideal free market, people would have amny other options. Businesses need employees and would want to encourage people to work for them by offering reasonable wages.

    Quote Originally Posted by Telex
    When America was going through the Industrial Revolution there was no mininum wage, and so the new immigrants worked horrendous hours in unsanitary condtions for piss-poor wages.
    Yes, this is true. However, I think that things have changed alot in the past 100 years or so, and that the conditions of the Industrial Revolution will not return if minimum wage is eliminated.

    The way I see it, this doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. The employee and employer need each other, and by working together both can benefit.
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  4. #4
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    The way I see it, minimum wage limits economic opportunities for those same underprivilaged people. If their labour is not worth the minimum wage, they simply won't be hired. They won't be able to get a job which they would be able to get if there was no minimum wage.
    Not really, minimum wage is basically seen as unskilled tedious labor pay.
    Quote Originally Posted by em
    If minimum wage increases unemployment amongst those who are already disadvantaged, then how is it helping this situation?
    It doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by em
    This isn't necessarily true. Workers could always apply for a job with a competitor who offers more money, or, if possible, start their own competition.
    I guess they could, but let's look at this logically. If you're applying to McDonalds you're either a kid, or an unskilled worker with little experience. Now, usually unskilled workers don't have much money, and usually have bad credit. A kid really can't start a business agaisnt McD, and the adult doesn't have the funds to back it up. Even if they tried, they would either go out of business very very quickly or be bought out (unlikely). Now let's say Joe Unskilled Worker goes to work at McD, which pays $0.12/hour. Ouch. Okay, let's go work for another company, Wendy's maybe. They pay $0.13/hour. Ouch. Let's try again, Burger King, $0.20/hour. The best, but let's see you try to live on that. Now you're forced to work for absolutely nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by em
    So minimum wage basically protects the local residents and denies immigrants the opportunity to work? I'm trying to figure out what exactly you mean. I would think that it would be better for an immigrant to be able to work for a low wage than to be out of a job entirely.
    No, anyone can get a minimum wage job really, remember they're the bottom of the barrel.
    Quote Originally Posted by em
    Why would people want to work for a company offers ridiculously low wages? In an ideal free market, people would have amny other options. Businesses need employees and would want to encourage people to work for them by offering reasonable wages.
    They wouldn't. But if every single company was paying NOTHING then you wouldn't have much choice, would you?
    Quote Originally Posted by em
    The way I see it, this doesn't have to be a zero-sum game. The employee and employer need each other, and by working together both can benefit.
    Again, if all the companies pay low, then Joe Unskilled Worker doesn't have much choice.
    "The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent." 1984, By George Orwell. Part 2: Chapter 9.

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    Re: Minimum Wage

    The current minimum wage really doesn't affect the market, as today's workers have come to expect more than minimum wage. However, if the minimum wage were raised, there would be more unemployment, because minimum wage is essentially a price floor: it lowers the amount of workers that companies are willing and able to hire.
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  6. #6
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Mass standard minimum wage: $6.75
    Our burger-flippers make a whopper of a dollar and a half over some of the rest of you (pardon the pun).

    The intention is to "provide people supporting themselves and/or families with much-needed money." Ultimately it results in teenagers buying more stuff. More teenagers get jobs, they spend more money, yay economy... now the wage is still technically less than the employees are worth, so companies still profit fine. I say the minimum wage should be increased even more here. Make it $7.50 and kids won't have to work as much to make the same amount of money, they'll spend more time doing schoolwork or being with friends, or make more for working the same.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
    Unfortunately, the lightest of light, all things good, are not so wonderful as we hope for them to be.
    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

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    Re: Minimum Wage

    I say the minimum wage should be increased even more here. Make it $7.50 and kids won't have to work as much to make the same amount of money, they'll spend more time doing schoolwork or being with friends, or make more for working the same.
    Why? If that happens, less teenagers will be hired and your economy will suffer.
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by KneeLess
    Quote Originally Posted by em
    If minimum wage increases unemployment amongst those who are already disadvantaged, then how is it helping this situation?
    It doesn't.
    Here's a link to an NCPA study which concludes that minimum wage does cause unemployment, particularly among those who are already struggling: http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s190/s190c.html

    Basically, it states that the laws of supply and demand apply to employees as well, and that increasing the MW will increase the number of workers who are willing to work but decrease the number that can be hired by businesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by KneeLess
    I guess they could, but let's look at this logically. If you're applying to McDonalds you're either a kid, or an unskilled worker with little experience. Now, usually unskilled workers don't have much money, and usually have bad credit. A kid really can't start a business agaisnt McD, and the adult doesn't have the funds to back it up. Even if they tried, they would either go out of business very very quickly or be bought out (unlikely). Now let's say Joe Unskilled Worker goes to work at McD, which pays $0.12/hour. Ouch. Okay, let's go work for another company, Wendy's maybe. They pay $0.13/hour. Ouch. Let's try again, Burger King, $0.20/hour. The best, but let's see you try to live on that. Now you're forced to work for absolutely nothing.
    I agree with you that starting up a business that tries to compete with McDonald's will probably not do too well. However, I don't see why taking away the MW will cause every business in the market to offer such low wages. If minimum wage is the only thing that keeps businesses from paying so poorly, then why is it that 90+% of people make more than the minimum wage?

    Quote Originally Posted by KneeLess
    No, anyone can get a minimum wage job really, remember they're the bottom of the barrel.
    The unskilled among us have trouble getting a minimum wage job if the employer does not think that his/her labour is worth the MW.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neverending
    However, if the minimum wage were raised, there would be more unemployment, because minimum wage is essentially a price floor: it lowers the amount of workers that companies are willing and able to hire.
    This is why I believe that the minimum wage is harmful to workers, the very people that the legislation is designed to help.
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    - Francisco d'Anconia, Atlas Shrugged

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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    Here's a link to an NCPA study which concludes that minimum wage does cause unemployment, particularly among those who are already struggling: http://www.ncpa.org/studies/s190/s190c.html
    That study (if you can really call it that) says raising the minimum wage has egregious side effects, I am not supporting raising it. I only support the existance of the minimum wage laws as a whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by em
    I agree with you that starting up a business that tries to compete with McDonald's will probably not do too well. However, I don't see why taking away the MW will cause every business in the market to offer such low wages. If minimum wage is the only thing that keeps businesses from paying so poorly, then why is it that 90+% of people make more than the minimum wage?
    The people make more because they're skilled workers! Skilled workers are a hot commodity, while unskilled workers are needed, it's just that they're replacable. In all sincerity, a job at McD would probably go down to $2.00-3 an hour pretty bad wages. And still, people need the money.
    Quote Originally Posted by em
    The unskilled among us have trouble getting a minimum wage job if the employer does not think that his/her labour is worth the MW.
    What job isn't worth the minimum wage, in your opinion?
    "The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent." 1984, By George Orwell. Part 2: Chapter 9.

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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by KneeLess
    That study (if you can really call it that) says raising the minimum wage has egregious side effects, I am not supporting raising it. I only support the existance of the minimum wage laws as a whole.
    Quote Originally Posted by NCPA
    Artificially raising wages by governmental edict creates a surplus of labor, better known as unemployment.
    I would say that imposing minimum wage legislation is the same as "artificially raising wages by government edict". The article points out that raising the MW will make things worse, but it is able to state that because the effects of currently existing legislation are already visible.

    Quote Originally Posted by KneeLess
    The people make more because they're skilled workers! Skilled workers are a hot commodity, while unskilled workers are needed, it's just that they're replacable. In all sincerity, a job at McD would probably go down to $2.00-3 an hour pretty bad wages. And still, people need the money.
    How are people who are the least fortunate in society, those with the fewest skills, able to get those skills? One reason to take a low-paying job is to gain experience for the future, and therefore "work your way up", gaining skills along the way. This past summer, I had a job where I made significantly less than minimum wage (it was only a couple of dollars per hour). I took it, however, so that I could gain work experience so that, in the future, I may be able to get a higher-paying job which I would not have been able to get if it were not for my first low-paying job. Those who are interested in gaining experience and important marketplace skills would see value in working at McDonalds, even if it is only for $2.00/hour.

    Quote Originally Posted by KneeLess
    What job isn't worth the minimum wage, in your opinion?
    I am not an employer, so my response to this question is not really relevant. However, let's say that I am a homeowner, and I need to get my garage painted. A teen who lives across the street is willing to do it for $5.00, and it will take 2 hours to do. That equals only $2.50/hour, which is less than minimum wage. However, as long as we can both agree on that wage, why should I be stopped from hiring the teen? It's a win-win situation, as I get my garage painted, and the teen gets $5.00.

    I see minimum wage as reinforcing a win-lose mentality, where either the employer OR the employee can benefit from a transaction. It therefore becomes a zero-sum type game, and I don't believe that is what the market really is.
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  11. #11
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    Mass standard minimum wage: $6.75
    Our burger-flippers make a whopper of a dollar and a half over some of the rest of you (pardon the pun).

    The intention is to "provide people supporting themselves and/or families with much-needed money." Ultimately it results in teenagers buying more stuff. More teenagers get jobs, they spend more money, yay economy... now the wage is still technically less than the employees are worth, so companies still profit fine. I say the minimum wage should be increased even more here. Make it $7.50 and kids won't have to work as much to make the same amount of money, they'll spend more time doing schoolwork or being with friends, or make more for working the same.
    That is an interesting observation. That the minimum wage pays less than these workers are worth. To whom?

    Isn't there something wrong when the government can tell a business how much it must pay a certain employee? I find it odd that many of you who have denounced the Patriot Act for its ability to reduce individual rights do not apply this same standard when businesses are concerned.

    If I want a job and am willing to do it for less than my competition, a minimum wage prevents my ability to do this. At some point, I cannot offer less than my competition. As an indiividual, shouldn't I have the right to negotiate any salary I can get with any employer I choose?

    If an argument for utilzing a minimum wage is to allow people to earn enough money to raise a family, isn't that putting the cart before the horse? Shouldn't people make sure they have employment and a viable salary before starting a family? Why are busninesses held accountable for the poor choices of individuals?

    In an age and culture where kids are making money, buying drugs, alchohol, and other adult type luxury items, is a higher salary really appropriate? Would not these kids learn more by scraping by until they learned the job skills which led to higher pay? Does a teenager NEED a cell phone, the coolest shoes, and a new IPOD? Why should busniesses be forced to pay teens the salary required to purchase these items when their labor could be obtained much more cheaply.

    What effect does mimimum wage have upon those who have skills? If minimum wage is 7.50, then an employer is forced to pay less for skilled positions. Furthermore, the income made in such positions will be worth less since prices increase to absorb labor costs caused artificially by minimum wage. If minimum wage increases by a dollar, does everyone in the company get a dollar raise? That hasn't been my experience. I simply lose real value on my existing salary.

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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Ibelsd
    That is an interesting observation. That the minimum wage pays less than these workers are worth. To whom?

    Isn't there something wrong when the government can tell a business how much it must pay a certain employee? I find it odd that many of you who have denounced the Patriot Act for its ability to reduce individual rights do not apply this same standard when businesses are concerned.

    If I want a job and am willing to do it for less than my competition, a minimum wage prevents my ability to do this. At some point, I cannot offer less than my competition. As an indiividual, shouldn't I have the right to negotiate any salary I can get with any employer I choose?
    Sure, if you're into making less money instead of more.

    If an argument for utilzing a minimum wage is to allow people to earn enough money to raise a family, isn't that putting the cart before the horse? Shouldn't people make sure they have employment and a viable salary before starting a family? Why are busninesses held accountable for the poor choices of individuals?
    Good points, also ones that I believe are important. Incidentally, though, it doesn't cover your bases for someone who has been laid off or is in a transitional period between jobs and still needs some money.

    In an age and culture where kids are making money, buying drugs, alchohol, and other adult type luxury items, is a higher salary really appropriate?
    Well if they couldn't afford them they'd steal and rob to get the money. Think Machiavelli.

    Would not these kids learn more by scraping by until they learned the job skills which led to higher pay? Does a teenager NEED a cell phone, the coolest shoes, and a new IPOD?
    "That's right Timmy, you have to EARN your pot!" No they do not necessarily require these items, but if they have the incentive and the ambition to do something for themselves, and Burger King needs someone to work the grill, why not kill two birds?

    Why should busniesses be forced to pay teens the salary required to purchase these items when their labor could be obtained much more cheaply.
    Because if they can't afford to buy anything they are not stimulating the economy.

    What effect does mimimum wage have upon those who have skills? If minimum wage is 7.50, then an employer is forced to pay less for skilled positions.
    Where is this logic coming from? It just comes out of the profits, unless the company is drowning in debt or too stingy to pay everyone proportionally.
    Furthermore, the income made in such positions will be worth less since prices increase to absorb labor costs caused artificially by minimum wage. If minimum wage increases by a dollar, does everyone in the company get a dollar raise? That hasn't been my experience. I simply lose real value on my existing salary.
    That's because the law is defining the lowest jobs as closer in relevance to yours. Whether this is right or wrong is another story, but ultimately, money just gets cycled differently.
    Fortunately, the darkest of darkness is not as terrible as we fear.
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    What, then, is left, but various shades of grey neutrality? Where are the heroes and villains? All I see are people.

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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    Sure, if you're into making less money instead of more.
    As I mentioned in an earlier post, some people would rather take low-paying jobs so that they can gain experience, and therefore be able to "move up the ladder" and progress in society.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    Good points, also ones that I believe are important. Incidentally, though, it doesn't cover your bases for someone who has been laid off or is in a transitional period between jobs and still needs some money.
    Couldn't unemployment insurance and good fiscal planning allow you to get through tough times until you find a new job which will support you and your family?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    Well if they couldn't afford them they'd steal and rob to get the money. Think Machiavelli.
    Yes, some people would. But others would cut back on some luxuries that they really don't need. Besides, if it takes longer to gain a certain amount of money, then they are more likely to appreciate it and spend it wisely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    "That's right Timmy, you have to EARN your pot!" No they do not necessarily require these items, but if they have the incentive and the ambition to do something for themselves, and Burger King needs someone to work the grill, why not kill two birds?
    I agree with you completely that "killing two birds" is a good idea. However, this could just as easily happen without a minimum wage. I fail to see how this is an argument in favour of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    Because if they can't afford to buy anything they are not stimulating the economy.
    If the issue is whether or not teens are stimulating the economy through purchasing, consider this. A lack of minimum wage allows product prices to drop, since it costs the company less to produce them. Lower prices tend to allow more people to buy the product. Therefore the economy is being stimulated that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    Where is this logic coming from? It just comes out of the profits, unless the company is drowning in debt or too stingy to pay everyone proportionally.
    Why would it just come from the profits? How can you be sure that experienced workers would not have their wages reduced?

    Quote Originally Posted by Fyshhed
    That's because the law is defining the lowest jobs as closer in relevance to yours. Whether this is right or wrong is another story, but ultimately, money just gets cycled differently.
    But the minimum wage still causes prices to rise, making existing wages and salaries worth less. Money does get cycled differently, but ultimately everyone is worse off because their money isn't as valuable.
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    The point the advocates seem to miss regarding minimum wage is that there already is one.

    There already is a minimum wage that you would be willing to work for. Period.

    MC's offering $0.12 an hour? Don't work there.

    If there is someone out there that would be HAPPY and willing to work for 12c, why force them to remain unemployed?

    You say 'they wouldn't be unemployed, we'd force MC to pay extra'.

    Right. So MC decides not to bother opening that new outlet after all then, there's no profit in it.

    So now our unemployed peep has 'gained' the fact that IF he had a job, then he would earn more.

    Which is worth more, the 12c in his pocket or the wealth he would have but doesn't?

    Think 'Bird in the hand is worth two in the bush'.

    If the majority of potential workers, the worker pool, need and or insist on more than 12c, then the only way a company can operate is to provide more than 12c.

    You see wages are merely the price the employer pays to buy your time, in the exact same way you buy a carton of eggs.



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    Re: Minimum Wage

    The job market is just like any other market, if prices are not competitive then employers or employees will seek work elsewhere. Hence the reason for outsourcing. Having a minimum wage in no way prevents companies from simply setting up factories in India as we are currently seeing. Having a minimum wage is like having the government set a minimum price on a product, even if its not worth that. What would you say to a minimum price of $10 per loaf a bread, even if its not worth that amount. In the same way why should I be made to pay minimum wage for work that isnt worth minimum wage?

    To think that the working class has no power is a lie. By uniting workers have the ability to literaly shut whole industries down, as has happened in American history. What this tells us is that workers are not subject to their employers every whim, but are just as capable of negotiating higher wages. It would be foolish to think that without a minimum wage that jobs that once paid $10, $20, $30 or more per hour will suddenly drop to below minimum wage. If this where the case then these jobs would already be at the minimum wage level. But instead these people recieve these wages because they require certain skills and abilities that can not be found elsewhere, that are in limited supply and in high demand. The wages wil not drop, but remain the same.

    The wages that would drop would be those minimum wage jobs that do not require any skill and really arnt worth the wages they're being paid right now. If a fast food worker is paid $7 an hour the wage will stay $7 an hour. The fact that this wage is above the minimum shows that the value of these workers and the availability of employees is above that of minimum wage. Without a minimum wage things will not change. There are really very few jobs that pay minimum wage anyhow.
    Last edited by chadn737; October 13th, 2004 at 02:54 AM.
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    I think the issue of minimum wage comes down to two ideologies. The pro side looks as income as a need to be fulfilled. The con side views income as a product of one's worth. Companies are not or should not be obligated to pay an employee what he/she feels he/she needs. The company is obligated to pay that employee a wage commensurate with their value to the company. If that person's labor is worth 10 cents an hour, so be it. Of course, this arbitrary number is one of those red herring arguments thrown out by the pro control wage crowd. It is unlikely many jobs, if any, would actually come anywhere near that low level.

    It is a battle of the rights of the individual. Those who believe in the minimum wage have little faith in the ability or freedom of the individual. To them, individuals are too weak to produce what they need. This is simply not my philosophy.

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    Re: Minimum Wage

    OK, I have a few mins so let's knock this one on the head.

    Minimum wages are evil. Here's why:

    In any given society the 'poor' will outnumber the 'rich'. Likewise the 'well paid' will always be outnumbered by the 'low paid'.

    The definition of being rich or well paid is having more than most.

    However the world is not made up of just poor and rich, there are many levels or degrees; fact remains thought, the 'poor' will always form the lower level of the upwardly pointing triangle, the wider base.

    When you artificially increase low wages, that has a knock on effect on all prices of everything - basicially prices rise. Same kind of thing as inflation, which is normally created via printing more money but minimum wage laws achieve the same results.

    This means your 'extra' money is nothing but a loan, a bit extra right now but less in the future when prices rise - thing is, prices will rise higher than your 'gain'.

    Why?

    Partly because the gummermint will spend money at today's prices, which, by the time they filter down to you, are worth less, so it's a form of tax.

    Partly because as all costs rise, people will need and get pay rises, which will shove many into higher tax brackets, increasing the money for gummermint = more tax = more costs = higher costs = inflation = even less money for the poor.

    It increases unemployment, which means more of the poor end up with ziltch.

    This creates a need for welfare, which can happen two ways - more direct tax, or the gummermint will simply print more money. Either way, it rises costs - inflation.

    etc etc etc.


    So when the gummermint promises to 'help' poor people by buying their votes with tax payer's money, it looks a great deal to the poor. As the poor have an equal vote to the 'rich' they are likely to help the thieving politican get into power, because there's always more 'poor' people.

    So the next politician who comes along will either do the same thing or at the very least will be too scared to undo it.

    So in exchange for a few extra cents today, the poor end up worse off, forever.


    Thus minimum wage laws are evil, created purely as a form of tax and to get politicians into power.

    Never have so many been fooled by so few.


    P.
    "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
    head of MI6

    "The Emory University study proves beyond a doubt that politicians and their acolytes - are lying morons."

    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
    Justice Jackson Nov. 21, 1945, Nuremberg

  18. #18
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    If you want workers to have more money, don't raise the minimum wage. Raising the minimum wage makes companies pay out more money, stop (or at least lessen) hiring, perhaps fire some employees, etc. So, instead of raising the minimum wage, why not have income tax credit, or something akin to that. The workers get to keep their jobs (at the smae wages), but get more money in their pocket. What's wrong with that? Why is raising the minimum wage any better?
    If I am capable of grasping God objectively, I do not believe, but precisely because I cannot do this I must believe. - Soren Kierkegaard
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  19. #19
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    As I mentioned in an earlier post, some people would rather take low-paying jobs so that they can gain experience, and therefore be able to "move up the ladder" and progress in society.
    This is a nice thought, but it doesn't apply to society. I want money now, not in 5 years or so when I have the "experience". And honestly, what experience would McD get you?
    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    Couldn't unemployment insurance and good fiscal planning allow you to get through tough times until you find a new job which will support you and your family?
    No, it simply isn't enough money.
    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    Yes, some people would. But others would cut back on some luxuries that they really don't need. Besides, if it takes longer to gain a certain amount of money, then they are more likely to appreciate it and spend it wisely.
    Okay, we're talking about adults in the real world. Now if these adults are trying to find a minuium wage job, then I bet they don't have many expensive habits, therefore it's pretty hard to cut down on them.
    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    I agree with you completely that "killing two birds" is a good idea. However, this could just as easily happen without a minimum wage. I fail to see how this is an argument in favour of it.
    You're right, foresight isn't common. Let's take teenagers. Why do they work? To buy things. How does buying things help? It stimulates an economy, which, I believe we can all agree on, is a thing we want to happen. If minimum wage didn't exist, then teens could work, and get some money, but wouldn't have close to enough to buy enough things to consider it "stimulating an economy".
    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    If the issue is whether or not teens are stimulating the economy through purchasing, consider this. A lack of minimum wage allows product prices to drop, since it costs the company less to produce them. Lower prices tend to allow more people to buy the product. Therefore the economy is being stimulated that way.
    If this were a 100% perfect world, you'd be absolutely right. Alas, we do not, and more often than not, I'd say that the extra money would simply goto profits. Because really, if we're talking about businesses that can survive with or without minuimum wage (which all of the decent ones can), then the price wars wouldn't be affected as much as you claim.
    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    Why would it just come from the profits? How can you be sure that experienced workers would not have their wages reduced?
    Let's take this as an analogy. To get into a college (this will represent the workplace) you must have and maintain a 65 average (minimum wage). If this requirement was increased, then the students with 90 averages wouldn't be effected at all now, would they? In fact, it may increase their averages (wages) because of the new standard.
    Quote Originally Posted by emtee10
    But the minimum wage still causes prices to rise, making existing wages and salaries worth less. Money does get cycled differently, but ultimately everyone is worse off because their money isn't as valuable.
    This doesn't make a lick of sense to me.

    Pibs, your arguement makes perfect sense, but alas, it is based upon this flawed principle:
    Quote Originally Posted by Pibs
    When you artificially increase low wages, that has a knock on effect on all prices of everything - basicially prices rise. Same kind of thing as inflation, which is normally created via printing more money but minimum wage laws achieve the same results.
    This principle has no proven data behind it. In fact, when minimum wage laws were instituted during the early 1900s, there was no significant prices raise in products. If you could show me some, then that'd be great.

    Quote Originally Posted by CliveStaples
    Why is raising the minimum wage any better?
    Last time: I do not support raising it.
    "The essential act of war is destruction, not necessarily of human lives, but of the products of human labour. War is a way of shattering to pieces, or pouring into the stratosphere, or sinking in the depths of the sea, materials which might otherwise be used to make the masses too comfortable, and hence, in the long run, too intelligent." 1984, By George Orwell. Part 2: Chapter 9.

  20. #20
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    Re: Minimum Wage

    "This principle has no proven data behind it. In fact, when minimum wage laws were instituted during the early 1900s, there was no significant prices raise in products. If you could show me some, then that'd be great."

    You really need me to prove to you that there has been inflation in the US since the early 1900's?

    How can you increase the costs of business and NOT have an increase in prices?

    Sure, the individual company may decide to absorb the difference, meaning eat the loss of profits themselves. Most cannot afford to do so, by defnition a business is trying to compete with other business's and keep their costs low so for most, the cost is passed on to the customer sooner or later.

    If not the customer, then they pass the cost on to their suppliers, by ordering less or demanding more for the same price or whatever.

    Fact is, you cannot simply juggle the numbers and not create an effect.

    Lemme put it this way, imagine I'm a politican, trying to get your vote:

    "Vote for me! I'm going to pass a law that ensures EVERYONE in the US will be paid a minimum of $100,000 a year, MINIMUM! We'll all be rich!"

    Would you vote for me?

    Thing is, you can do that, a suitably powerful politician could make that happen. The fly in the ointment however, is that it can only happen via making money worth a lot less than it is now - so yes, we could all earn $2,000 a week but your daily paper costing 40c would now cost you $5.00 so you're no better off.

    In the meantime, while all the impacts of such lunacy were being felt, the poor would be worse off. They are always the first to be screwed and ripped off, with no power to protect themselves. Any savings or pensions they had are now worthless, stolen by gummermint, it would take YEARS for the impact to finally trickle down and for the poor to be earning that $2,000.

    In the meantime, everyone makes hay at the expense of the poor people. Again.

    If you tried to introduce such lunacy rapidly, there would be mass unemployment and you'd blow the economy out of the water.

    Minimum wage laws get passed and the impact isn't obvious only because they do things on a small scale and the effects take time to be felt. In the meantime, the poor actually believe they are better off, and they are, but in the same way as they would be if they took out a loan and spent it.

    Sooner or later, you have to pay for it.


    P.
    "The intelligence and facts are being fixed around the policy."
    head of MI6

    "The Emory University study proves beyond a doubt that politicians and their acolytes - are lying morons."

    "We must make clear to the Germans that the wrong for which their fallen leaders are on trial is not that they lost the war, but that they started it."
    Justice Jackson Nov. 21, 1945, Nuremberg

 

 

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